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Thread: Thoughts on Jordan Peterson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    Whether you think the holocaust and all that was justified is another debate of course
    If you even think that merits a debate then you have a serious problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    Perhaps some people are obsessed with the rich because working and middle class incomes have been stagnant the past 40 years while the economic elite's income has increased exponentially? Perhaps some people hate the blatant anti-consumer practices going on (ex. comcast's monopoly or the shitty food at places Mcdonald's). Perhaps some people are tired of living pay check to paycheck, working jobs where what they do is detached form anything personal and meaningful? Perhaps people are tired of the lobbying going on, where the rich are using their wealth to influence and corrupt government?

    Much more I could go about. And while yes, simply antagonizing all rich people like the communist did would lead to disaster, the sad, meaningless, dog-eat-dog way we live now isn't the way people have always lived throughout history, nor is it the only way we have to live now.
    I agree with you on this point completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    Watch the video I just posted about why hitler hated jews. It immediately confronts the elementary school idea that hitler hated jews just because he was jealous or whatever and then it goes into depth about actual reasons he hated jews. Whether you think the holocaust and all that was justified is another debate of course, but believe or not there were actual reasons he hated the jews that go far beyond the primitive notion of needing a scapegoat.
    I actually watched the entire video because I genuinely just wanted to learn why Hitler hated the Jews beyond the simplistic idea that he was rejected in art school and that he was jealous of them. I will admit that the video does a good job of explaining why Hitler hated the Jews, but it didn't do a good job at separating the difference between a harmful Jew and a harmless Jew. Only at the end he says that it's the elite Jews that are ruining society at the benefit of other elite Jews and elite non-Jews and that 9-5 non-Jews and 9-5 Jews are the ones that suffer the brunt of this sociopathic behavior.

    He should of pointed out that Hitler was wrong at creating the holocaust because his goal to exile or eliminate the elite Jews by exiling or eliminating the average harmless Jews with them is atrocious. Like I said before, it's basically an extreme form of collateral damage. The U.S. army basically does this today to a lesser extent by using drones to kill terrorists so the US army is willing to kill innocent families that the terrorists are hiding in with drones to kill the terrorists. That is essentially what Hitler did in WWII with the holocaust, but to a far greater scale so it's extreme collateral damage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    Perhaps some people are obsessed with the rich because working and middle class incomes have been stagnant the past 40 years while the economic elite's income has increased exponentially? Perhaps some people hate the blatant anti-consumer practices going on (ex. comcast's monopoly or the shitty food at places Mcdonald's). Perhaps some people are tired of living pay check to paycheck, working jobs where what they do is detached form anything personal and meaningful? Perhaps people are tired of the lobbying going on, where the rich are using their wealth to influence and corrupt government?

    Much more I could go about. And while yes, simply antagonizing all rich people like the communist did would lead to disaster, the sad, meaningless, dog-eat-dog way we live now isn't the way people have always lived throughout history, nor is it the only way we have to live now.
    Middle class? Working class? No offense but that says nothing to me because I don't believe in the idea of a class struggle. Furthermore people are going to be paid differently according to the services/products they offer. If you don't want to live paycheck to paycheck then get a better job. Save and invest in yourself, and don't blow your money on useless shit. There is plenty that you could do to improve your economical situation.

    The reality is most people want to be rich but don't want to sacrifice anything. They want an easy job, with no experience or certificates required and they want to be paid well. That is not going to happen when you made yourself replaceable by anyone in the market. Corporations would rather take your job for less money because they can afford to, and then hire someone else and pay them less. It's that simple. And if people keep acting dumb and do useless jobs like being an elevator operator when technology has already replaced them then they will continue to struggle.

    People can't claim to be disadvantaged for so long when opportunities are presented to them and they can't actually act on them rationally. I have seen people that earn way less than me get married so early, take enormous amount of loans to finance their lifestyle and have kids, because they couldn't stomach the idea that if you are not well off you shouldn't be doing any of these things in the first place until you can afford to. No one want to put their life on hold until they get their shit together. People don't even think of retirement because they expect everything to be handed to them now.

    You can blame the rich all you want. But I have seen people make stupid choices despite all the warning signs. Despite what you have been told in school, not all paths are equal. A doctor and a nurse are not going to be paid similarly. That is not going to happen. The risks both take are different. Their responsibilities are different. The amount of study and work they do to get where they are is different. Unless you want to pay nobodies to be doctors and have a high turnover rate due to malpractice and then get sued to oblivion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by COOL AND MANLY View Post
    Middle class? Working class? No offense but that says nothing to me because I don't believe in the idea of a class struggle. Furthermore people are going to be paid differently according to the services/products they offer. If you don't want to live paycheck to paycheck then get a better job. Save and invest in yourself, and don't blow your money on useless shit. There is plenty that you could do to improve your economical situation.
    78% of American full-time workers live pay check to pay check. There simply doesn't exist enough high paying jobs to get everyone out of living pay check to pay check. Many of those who do end up successful often do so through ways that aren't exactly virtuous.


    The reality is most people want to be rich but don't want to sacrifice anything. They want an easy job, with no experience or certificates required and they want to be paid well. That is not going to happen when you made yourself replaceable by anyone in the market. Corporations would rather take your job for less money because they can afford to, and then hire someone else and pay them less. It's that simple. And if people keep acting dumb and do useless jobs like being an elevator operator when technology has already replaced them then they will continue to struggle.
    There would be a lot more people willing to work more if the work that did was something personal like running a small business doing something that has personal value, instead of working for the benefit of a distant CEO. Corporations have been actively undermining small businesses and independent crafts for the last couple centuries and forcing more people into monitored, regimented work where you are pressured to work your hardest every minute. College is expensive and doesn't guarantee it will pay off or make the work available anymore fulfilling. People don't want easy jobs, they want fulfilling jobs, and those are rare to come by in today's profit-above-all capitalist system.

    People can't claim to be disadvantaged for so long when opportunities are presented to them and they can't actually act on them rationally. I have seen people that earn way less than me get married so early, take enormous amount of loans to finance their lifestyle and have kids, because they couldn't stomach the idea that if you are not well off you shouldn't be doing any of these things in the first place until you can afford to. No one want to put their life on hold until they get their shit together. People don't even think of retirement because they expect everything to be handed to them now.
    Well yes, these is always going to exist of small amount of people who make too poor of choices and fail no matter what. Nothing can be done about those people. The problem though is that there doesn't exist enough collective effort to a lot help guide people away for making poor. People are thrown into wind today, expected to somehow succeed in an incredibly competitive environment, with no room left for cultivating a sense of nationality and brotherhood which encourage people to help one another.

    You can blame the rich all you want. But I have seen people make stupid choices despite all the warning signs. Despite what you have been told in school, not all paths are equal. A doctor and a nurse are not going to be paid similarly. That is not going to happen. The risks both take are different. Their responsibilities are different. The amount of study and work they do to get where they are is different. Unless you want to pay nobodies to be doctors and have a high turnover rate due to malpractice and then get sued to oblivion.
    Again, I'm not advocating for communism here. Some people do deserve to get paid more then others. But richest 100 people in America today earn far far beyond what is reasonable for the amount of effort and overall good they do. There should exist caps or extremely high progressive tax on how much a person can get paid.

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    Class struggle is real. Don't kid yourself. It's predicated on terms set by the upper-class, who sit at the top because they keep people at the bottom. You cannot exist without getting sharked by someone richer, and the vast majority lack the education and foresight necessary to climb the ladder when the deck is stacked against them. Public education offers no mandatory financial classes, and most U.S. families live paycheck-to-paycheck (even including a good chunk of upper-middle class), so most must learn financial wisdom the hard way, which becomes a slippery slope with a harsh learning curve in our capitalistic, consumerist, materialistic environment. Lol, public education doesn't sufficiently edify us about loans, interest rates, credit, debit, asset depreciation, or predatory institutions - and most families are up to their asses trying to tackle related issues that they don't have time to effectively teach their kids.

    Industrialized living poses existential concerns for the working class. The working class struggle to find fulfillment when all aspects of their jobs reflect the industrial concept of "interchangeable parts" - tools are interchangeable, products are interchangeable, services are interchangeable, the jobs themselves are interchangeable. So most workers are left with little personal, individual resonance or meaning to be found in their work. In contrast, before the bourgeoisie implemented this concept of "interchangeable parts" to ensure business efficiency for their interests of profit, workers had more freedom to craft and produce under their own terms. And working under one's own terms could include making meaningful contributions to society instead of slavishly working for the profit motives of disconnected CEOs.
    Last edited by Karatos; 01-08-2019 at 08:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    78% of American full-time workers live pay check to pay check. There simply doesn't exist enough high paying jobs to get everyone out of living pay check to pay check. Many of those who do end up successful often do so through ways that aren't exactly virtuous.
    That statistic tells me nothing of value. It just means people aren't dying on the streets. They are paying their bills. They spend a little here and there on necessities. Sometimes they have a little extra to play with until next month. Or they cash on their credit.

    There would be a lot more people willing to work more if the work that did was something personal like running a small business doing something that has personal value, instead of working for the benefit of a distant CEO. Corporations have been actively undermining small businesses and independent crafts for the last couple centuries and forcing more people into monitored, regimented work where you are pressured to work your hardest every minute. College is expensive and doesn't guarantee it will pay off or make the work available anymore fulfilling. People don't want easy jobs, they want fulfilling jobs, and those are rare to come by in today's profit-above-all capitalist system.
    You can't be serious. First you said there isn't enough high paying jobs. Then you don't want any job. You want a fulfilling one? Get a social life. Seriously. You get a job to get paid, not to attain nirvana.

    Well yes, these is always going to exist of small amount of people who make too poor of choices and fail no matter what. Nothing can be done about those people. The problem though is that there doesn't exist enough collective effort to a lot help guide people away for making poor. People are thrown into wind today, expected to somehow succeed in an incredibly competitive environment, with no room left for cultivating a sense of nationality and brotherhood which encourage people to help one another.
    If 78% are making dumb choices what collective effort there is to guide them and how do you even achieve that without comprising democracy? These people consistently vote against their interests.

    Again, I'm not advocating for communism here. Some people do deserve to get paid more then others. But richest 100 people in America today earn far far beyond what is reasonable for the amount of effort and overall good they do. There should exist caps or extremely high progressive tax on how much a person can get paid.
    This is communism tho.

    There would be no incentive to work. Especially high demanding and risky jobs. I don't think you understand the consequences of what you are suggesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Weird View Post
    At least Ben Shapiro is unapolegetic in his conservatism, doesn't beat around the bushes and try to pose as some weird radical centrist. Peterson is a traditional conservative, I think he's just afraid of the label and what it connotes so he beats around the bush and makes a fuss about being a "classical liberal" even though classical liberalism doesn't really exist anymore, as it was absorbed into other political philosophies around the mid 20th century via the Hegelian Dialectic. I find that people who adopt that label are usually either traditional conservatives or center libertarians.
    I think the label "classical liberal" makes more sense than "center libertarian". I'm not sure what is implied by the latter, actually. A moderate libertarian?

    I think classical liberalism and libertarianism are basically the same movement, libertarianism is the more radical tendency in classical liberalism though.

    I agree that liberalism has been absorbed into social liberalism, a mix of socialism and liberalism. Which is why the term liberal means a progressive (social liberal) and not a libertarian (classical liberal) in the US. But even though the terms have changed, the ideas remain the same.

    That being said I agree that classical liberal does not apply to Jordan Peterson. He is a conservative. The fundamental difference between a conservative and a libertarian/classical liberal is the that the former views the family as the fundamental unit of society, whereas for the latter it is the individual. They might favor the same economic policies, though.

    I wish we could simplify this mess and just stop calling progressives "liberals", liberals want free markets lol. In Europe we still understand "liberal" in the classical way.
    Last edited by Uncle Ave; 01-08-2019 at 06:31 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    I think the label "classical liberal" makes more sense than "center libertarian". I'm not sure what is implied by the latter, actually. A moderate libertarian?

    I think classical liberalism and libertarianism are basically the same movement, libertarianism is a more radical tendency in classical liberalism though.

    I agree that liberalism has been absorbed into social liberalism, a mix of socialism and liberalism. Which is why the term liberal means a progressive (social liberal) and not a libertarian (classical liberal). But even though the terms have changed, the ideas remain the same.

    That being said I agree that classical liberal does not apply to Jordan Peterson. He is a conservative. The fundamental difference between a conservative and a libertarian/classical liberal is the that the former views the family as the fundamental unit of society, whereas for the latter it is the individual. They might favor the same economic policies, though.

    I wish we could simplify this mess and just stop calling progressives "liberals", liberals want free markets lol.
    I wish he would stop using the classical British liberal term, it's outdated so it's just a way to hide his true political identity. The way he describes himself in this video, he seems like he would be a Libertarian or a Centrist. Maybe he is a center-right Conservative and he doesn't want to admit it, but he has peculiar political beliefs because he has too many left wing views to be right wing, but he's definitely too right wing to be a Liberal.

    Politically, I am a classic British liberal. Temperamentally, I am high in openness, which tilts me to the left, although I am also conscientious, which tilts me to the right. Philosophically I am an individualist, not a collectivist, of the right or the left. Metaphisically, I am an American pragmatist, who has been strongly influenced by the psychoanalytic and clinical thinking of Freud, Jung and the psychotherapists who have followed in their wake.


    This seems like a very Libertarian viewpoint that I can relate to, which he basically mentions too. Any center-right conservatives I've met were ardently anti-legalization of marijuana:



    His views are kind of all over the place, which I can relate to though. I have a mixture of left and right wing views making my political views seem all over the place. I've tested left-libertarian on 4 quadrant political tests, but apparently that is an oxymoron to some people.
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    @Raver, the term classical liberal may be old but we haven't found a better word to associate with the concept, imo. "Liberal" would be better, but that word is taken, sadly.

    As far as JB Peterson goes, why do you think the term is misleading if you aeren't sure what his real views are?

    Some people don't really care about choosing an ideology in politics, I honestly think that that's the best approach, and society will rip its hair out trying to label you, lol.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    @Raver, the term classical liberal may be old but we haven't found a better word to associate with the concept, imo. "Liberal" would be better, but that word currently means something else.

    As far as JB Peterson goes, why do you think the term is misleading if you aeren't sure what his real views are?

    Some people don't really care about choosing an ideology in politics, I honestly think that that's the best approach, and society will rip its hair out trying to label you, lol.
    Yeah, he is kind of trolling in a way by labeling himself as a classical Liberal, maybe it's his way of trying not to play the political game or rebelling against it. I only think the term is misleading because it had relevance two centuries ago and now it's outdated. However, it does give somewhat of an idea where his political views lie nonetheless. People either see him as a center-right conservative, centrist or libertarian, but center-right conservative is more popular because he spends most of his time criticizing the far left.
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    Quote Originally Posted by COOL AND MANLY View Post

    You get a job to get paid, not to attain nirvana.
    This line of thinking is precisely the problem. This is what causes the empty, soulless, anti-consumerist society we live in today. This is what the wealthy elite (dare I say the jews) have been slowly transformation human society into the past few decades. People have every right to seek and demand work that has meaning beyond sustaining a mediocre existence.

    Your whole attitude towards this topic reeks of "let them eat cake". Let me ask you, cool and manly, how is your situation? Are you of one those successful people who don't live paycheck to paycheck and enjoy a high standard of living? If so, how much of what you have did you obtain from scratch? Did you pay for own car, house, education, bills, food, etc., or did your parents/relatives pay for these things? Did you enjoy working 70 work hour weeks at a warehouse, because that's exactly what it takes have any at all of becoming anywhere near remotely successful here in America as someone who didn't have the luxury of having things handed down to them by their parents, unless of course you win the lottery or resort to theft/scams/fraud/gold digging.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    This line of thinking is precisely the problem. This is what causes the empty, soulless, anti-consumerist society we live in today. This is what the wealthy elite (dare I say the jews) have been slowly transformation human society into the past few decades. People have every right to seek and demand work that has meaning beyond sustaining a mediocre existence.

    Your whole attitude towards this topic reeks of "let them eat cake". Let me ask you, cool and manly, how is your situation? Are you of one those successful people who don't live paycheck to paycheck and enjoy a high standard of living? If so, how much of what you have did you obtain from scratch? Did you pay for own car, house, education, bills, food, etc., or did your parents/relatives pay for these things? Did you enjoy working 70 work hour weeks at a warehouse, because that's exactly what it takes have any at all of becoming anywhere near remotely successful here in America as someone who didn't have the luxury of having things handed down to them by their parents, unless of course you win the lottery or resort to theft/scams/fraud/gold digging.
    I do think that there's something anti human about standing at an assembly line or tweaking excel worksheets for 8+ hours a day but I wonder how you would organize society in such a way that nobody has to arduous, gross, or boring shit. Automation? I dunno, even if nobody had to take a job they don't want, it's not like most people even really know what they DO want. If we were left without roadblocks to pursue our passions unencumbered I wonder if most people would just be totally lost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    I do think that there's something anti human about standing at an assembly line or tweaking excel worksheets for 8+ hours a day but I wonder how you would organize society in such a way that nobody has to arduous, gross, or boring shit. Automation? I dunno, even if nobody had to take a job they don't want, it's not like most people even really know what they DO want. If we were left without roadblocks to pursue our passions unencumbered I wonder if most people would just be totally lost.
    Automation will only help if we radically change our government and economic system, otherwise only the elite will benefit while more people are put out of work. Here's a video I've posted here before on that subject:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    Automation will only help if we radically change our government and economic system, otherwise only the elite will benefit while more people are put out of work. Here's a video I've posted here before on that subject:
    The idea of full automation makes me want to drink myself to death.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    This line of thinking is precisely the problem. This is what causes the empty, soulless, anti-consumerist society we live in today. This is what the wealthy elite (dare I say the jews) have been slowly transformation human society into the past few decades. People have every right to seek and demand work that has meaning beyond sustaining a mediocre existence.

    Your whole attitude towards this topic reeks of "let them eat cake". Let me ask you, cool and manly, how is your situation? Are you of one those successful people who don't live paycheck to paycheck and enjoy a high standard of living? If so, how much of what you have did you obtain from scratch? Did you pay for own car, house, education, bills, food, etc., or did your parents/relatives pay for these things? Did you enjoy working 70 work hour weeks at a warehouse, because that's exactly what it takes have any at all of becoming anywhere near remotely successful here in America as someone who didn't have the luxury of having things handed down to them by their parents, unless of course you win the lottery or resort to theft/scams/fraud/gold digging.
    You can't have your cake and eat it. What is more important to you? Having enough money that you don't have to worry about small shit, or finding meaning in what you do?

    I didn't finish college because my dad kicked me out when he found out that I'm an atheist. I'm not going to brag here. I don't consider myself rich anyway. I'm only fortunate enough to have a good job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by COOL AND MANLY View Post
    Middle class? Working class? No offense but that says nothing to me because I don't believe in the idea of a class struggle. Furthermore people are going to be paid differently according to the services/products they offer. If you don't want to live paycheck to paycheck then get a better job. Save and invest in yourself, and don't blow your money on useless shit. There is plenty that you could do to improve your economical situation.

    The reality is most people want to be rich but don't want to sacrifice anything. They want an easy job, with no experience or certificates required and they want to be paid well. That is not going to happen when you made yourself replaceable by anyone in the market. Corporations would rather take your job for less money because they can afford to, and then hire someone else and pay them less. It's that simple. And if people keep acting dumb and do useless jobs like being an elevator operator when technology has already replaced them then they will continue to struggle.

    People can't claim to be disadvantaged for so long when opportunities are presented to them and they can't actually act on them rationally. I have seen people that earn way less than me get married so early, take enormous amount of loans to finance their lifestyle and have kids, because they couldn't stomach the idea that if you are not well off you shouldn't be doing any of these things in the first place until you can afford to. No one want to put their life on hold until they get their shit together. People don't even think of retirement because they expect everything to be handed to them now.

    You can blame the rich all you want. But I have seen people make stupid choices despite all the warning signs. Despite what you have been told in school, not all paths are equal. A doctor and a nurse are not going to be paid similarly. That is not going to happen. The risks both take are different. Their responsibilities are different. The amount of study and work they do to get where they are is different. Unless you want to pay nobodies to be doctors and have a high turnover rate due to malpractice and then get sued to oblivion.
    The issue has little to do with an upper, middle and lower class existing and mostly to do with the widening gap between the rich and working class/poor and the middle class disappearing. It's natural for society to function to have a class disparity of some sort or we end up in a communist state, which has been proven impractical in the past. As I mentioned in this following post, it's largely about the widening gap between the rich and poor due to rising inflation and salaries not keeping up:

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1315234

    I think most of the ire and hatred is drawn towards the rich or upper class because they see the gap between the rich and working class/poor widening rather than shrinking. When you look at statistics, that certainly is the case in terms of inflation increasing:

    https://inflationdata.com/Inflation/..._inflation.jpg

    However, it's not just because of inflation, it's salaries not keeping up to inflation that is the real issue so this is where the anger at the upper class or rich lies because workers are gradually getting paid less and less in relation to the cost of living.

    http://www.pewresearch.org/wp-conten...e_adjusted.png

    Essentially, the main issue is that our salaries are not keeping up to the rising cost of living due to inflation:

    https://i.pinimg.com/236x/be/14/36/b...-of-living.jpg

    So 60 years ago in 1958, you can buy yourself a house at a third of your salary, where as nowadays that is obviously not the case.
    Basically, the rich are becoming richer and the poor are becoming poorer because if you do the math, it's pretty clear that salaries are not keeping up with inflation and that has been an on going issue since the 1950s. You can increase minimum wage to help deal with it, but it's just a band-aid solution for the real issue at hand, which is salaries are not keeping up to inflation. Our quality of life has decreased quite visibly and noticeably compared to the 1990s and it's obvious to see why. It's also a trend that has shown no means of slowing down and it is continuing at a steady pace.

    In an ample amount of North American cities, renting or purchasing a home is not affordable because of the ludicrously high house prices, then add in the rising cost of bills, food and most items and it's not difficult to see that our quality of life decreasing. That is the main crux of the issue in the end, if our quality of life had remained stable or improved then this wouldn't be an issue, but it's a serious issue and we can't just brush it under the carpet that the poor and working class are envious of the rich when the gap between them is widening and there are numerous statistics that prove this is happening.
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    Quote Originally Posted by COOL AND MANLY View Post
    Having enough money that you don't have to worry about small shit, or finding meaning in what you do?
    Meaning. Not even a question. Meaning every day and twice on Sunday.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    People have every right to seek and demand work that has meaning beyond sustaining a mediocre existence.
    Every right to seek it? Absolutely. 100%. The world is your oyster.

    Demand this from others? No. Absolutely not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    This is what the wealthy elite (dare I say the jews)


    To quote you again: "This line of thinking is precisely the problem." Stop blaming others for your own poor life choices.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samson View Post
    Stop blaming others for your own poor life choices.
    When I see there are people that are indeed actively exploiting, manipulating and dragging others down, you damn well better believe I'm going to blame them and fight against them with all my might. This is what the globalist are doing. This is why the working class, who know the reality and struggles, elected Trump and also why see the Yellow Vest movement in France, Brexit, the rapid rise of the AfD in Germany and other populist parties in the EU. To say "stop blaming others" in regards to the current geopolitical situation is to betray your fellow people.

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    It is true that income inequality is increasing. It is true that quality of life is suffering by some metrics. It is true that some cultural and ethnic groups are over-represented in various fields. But it is completely fallacious to then decide to universally pin societal ills on general cultural and ethnic groups, just because they may be over-represented in powerful positions. People of any given ethnic group don't choose to be greedy or abuse their power in a higher position because they are a member of that ethnic group, they do so because they are human, and human nature is such that power corrupts all.

    It's understandable why people jump to these conclusions - it's remarkably easy to pontificate about all the "goddamn Jews" controlling financial institutions and the media, likewise for how all white people are out to repress and hold back minorities with their microaggressions, likewise for how all Asian people are going to take our STEM jobs, likewise for how your new Muslim neighbors are going to impose their Sharia law on you because of some misquoted excerpt from a book you haven't read and don't understand, etc, etc. (I'm speaking in absurd generalities here but my point should be quite clear). It's harder to accept that people that look a bit different from you are humans too, and they are subject to the same moral shortcomings as everyone else, including yourself.

    Seriously, does anybody truly believe that if they had the same life experiences as, say, a banker that happens to be Jewish, that they would be some Robin Hood for all the common people? That might only happen if a day laborer were to wake up tomorrow and suddenly be an investment banker worth millions (and even then there's no guarantee). Banking requires constant foresight, awareness, and competition. There's little room for charity if you want to be successful.

    When people start speaking in blanket statements about groups of people and start playing the blame game, they tend to really do themselves a disservice in having their other more reasoned arguments be heard by others.
    Last edited by ghost of forum past; 01-09-2019 at 05:47 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mithra View Post
    It is true that income inequality is increasing. It is true that quality of life is suffering by some metrics. It is true that some cultural and ethnic groups are over-represented in various fields. But it is completely fallacious to then decide to universally pin societal ills on general cultural and ethnic groups, just because they may be over-represented in powerful positions. People of any given ethnic group don't choose to be greedy or abuse their power in a higher position because they are a member of that ethnic group, they do so because they are human, and human nature is such that power corrupts all.

    It's understandable why people jump to these conclusions - it's remarkably easy to pontificate about all the "goddamn Jews" controlling financial institutions and the media, likewise for how all white people are out to repress and hold back minorities with their microaggressions, likewise for how all Asian people are going to take our STEM jobs, likewise for how your new Muslim neighbors are going to impose their Sharia law on you because of some misquoted excerpt from a book you haven't read and don't understand, etc, etc. (I'm speaking in absurd generalities here but my point should be quite clear). It's harder to accept that people that look a bit different from you are humans too, and they are subject to the same moral shortcomings as everyone else, including yourself.

    Seriously, does anybody truly believe that if they had the same life experiences as, say, a banker that happens to be Jewish, that they would be some Robin Hood for all the common people? That might only happen if a day laborer were to wake up tomorrow and suddenly be an investment banker worth millions (and even then there's no guarantee). Banking requires constant foresight, awareness, and competition. There's little room for charity if you want to be successful.

    When people start speaking in blanket statements about groups of people and start playing the blame game, they tend to really do themselves a disservice in having their other more reasoned arguments be heard by others.
    I don't disagree with your general message. In the end of the day, it is only the bad apples of an ethnic group in power causing problems for society. They may be of one ethnic group or of several ethnic groups, we simply don't know.

    However, I think it is fine to put our ire on those with power and money that seek to subjugate us (it can be the government, corporations or something unknown), ethnicity whether relevant or not in this scenario is not a factor though.

    I also agree that it is human nature to take advantage of power regardless of the ethnic group involved. We also should not attack an entire ethnic group, which is silly considering that only a minority within that ethnic group are harmful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    When I see there are people that are indeed actively exploiting, manipulating and dragging others down, you damn well better believe I'm going to blame them and fight against them with all my might. This is what the globalist are doing. This is why the working class, who know the reality and struggles, elected Trump and also why see the Yellow Vest movement in France, Brexit, the rapid rise of the AfD in Germany and other populist parties in the EU. To say "stop blaming others" in regards to the current geopolitical situation is to betray your fellow people.
    Reading your response is like listening to a tape recorder. Heard it a million times before. There is no exit on the path you're on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    The issue has little to do with an upper, middle and lower class existing and mostly to do with the widening gap between the rich and working class/poor and the middle class disappearing. It's natural for society to function to have a class disparity of some sort or we end up in a communist state, which has been proven impractical in the past. As I mentioned in this following post, it's largely about the widening gap between the rich and poor due to rising inflation and salaries not keeping up:

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1315234

    Basically, the rich are becoming richer and the poor are becoming poorer because if you do the math, it's pretty clear that salaries are not keeping up with inflation and that has been an on going issue since the 1950s. You can increase minimum wage to help deal with it, but it's just a band-aid solution for the real issue at hand, which is salaries are not keeping up to inflation. Our quality of life has decreased quite visibly and noticeably compared to the 1990s and it's obvious to see why. It's also a trend that has shown no means of slowing down and it is continuing at a steady pace.

    In an ample amount of North American cities, renting or purchasing a home is not affordable because of the ludicrously high house prices, then add in the rising cost of bills, food and most items and it's not difficult to see that our quality of life decreasing. That is the main crux of the issue in the end, if our quality of life had remained stable or improved then this wouldn't be an issue, but it's a serious issue and we can't just brush it under the carpet that the poor and working class are envious of the rich when the gap between them is widening and there are numerous statistics that prove this is happening.
    http://www.in2013dollars.com/1910-do...010?amount=100

    2275% cumulative inflation rate in a 100 year period. That is around 3% inflation rate per year. From 1910 to 2010.

    http://www.pewresearch.org/wp-conten...e_adjusted.png

    Your second picture practically says salaries increased slightly when we adjust for inflation. Meaning they are keeping up with inflation. How is this an argument in your favour?

    http://www.in2013dollars.com/1964-do...18?amount=2.50

    Basically income increased 4% per year on average from 1964 to 2018.

    https://i.pinimg.com/236x/be/14/36/b...-of-living.jpg

    So 60 years ago in 1958, you can buy yourself a house at a third of your salary, where as nowadays that is obviously not the case.
    House cost in 1958 is $11,975 according to your sources. Average income: $4,650 per year.

    I'm not sure how you did your math but that is not a third of your salary. It's more than double/triple your salary. It's actually insanely similar to the current situation.

    Sorry for not replying earlier. I didn't want to involve myself in your conversation with Ave. I like to hear others thoughts even when we disagree. I enjoyed reading your exchange.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samson View Post
    Reading your response is like listening to a tape recorder. Heard it a million times before. There is no exit on the path you're on.
    Maybe do a little digging and you might actually learn there is actually some validity to all of it, or you can just keep tuning it out. When the growing unrest in America and Europe reaches it's boiling point you best hope you find yourself on the right side.

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    Even if the Jews controlled everything what is the point of complaining about it. Making yourself look prejudiced (excellent idea for a straight white male in society now!!) and wallowing in self-pity? Spreading that pain and self-pity to others? Oh you’re a loser? What do you want others to say, “#MeToo, boohoo”?

    Making excuses is the best way to stay poor forever. GLHF!

    No. What you do is suck it up, quit whining and leverage everything you can. Otherwise you deserve to be wiped out compared to those who, instead of complaining about others, are silently hauling ass day in day out to get out of their situation. Also, a lot of the time so-called limitations that society has “given you” don’t really exist or can be transformed into advantages if you push and search hard enough. If you have already decided you’re fucked already, all you do is dig your own grave.

    Like if you’re a tall, non-stupid, non-ugly straight white male AND you’re uncircumcised. What more do you need???? Just because you believe you’re a bit poor, well then what does that make the rest of us LOL. Jesus Christ. If you aren’t willing to give concessions in how you relate to other people, I don’t expect that you’re making the necessary concessions in your life that you need to be taking if you want to get ahead. Period. It tells me, no, you DON’T know “the struggle”. You don’t want to win or to get out bad enough. How the fuck did you afford all your toys, time to game and pursue your hobbies, and time to go on the forum? What’s next lol. Do you have a swimming pool in your backyard? What else is new. RIP and good riddance. Learn or die, like all other people who have undergone oppression throughout human history.

    Plus even if you’re gonna perish, you wanna do it without ever really trying, while blaming the Jews? LOL. The worst, most undignified faggot way to die.
    Last edited by sbbds; 01-09-2019 at 12:34 PM.

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    Yeah in my experience people who complain that they’re poor are full of shit lol. I don’t buy it at all.

    If you’re really poor, that’s something you try to HIDE

    It’s a wolf that wears sheeps clothing. Natural instinct is to hide your weaknesses and illnesses, not to display them. You’re just making excuses.

    But yeah with a stupid ass mentality you’ll become poor for certain even if you never were in the first place LOL. Oh well, #byebitch!!
    Last edited by sbbds; 01-09-2019 at 01:51 PM.

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    Sorry, I just hate this kind of defeatist mentality. If I had it, I’d be dead by now. I hate being reminded of it. You need to find someone who will show you the light at the end of the tunnel.

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    I don't really see any evidence of Peterson being anti-semitic. If anything, the opposite, as he has that weird almost fetish-like adoration for Jewish people that I've also noticed in a lot evangelical circles (having been a member of a church years ago). There's a reason alt right and white nationalist people on places like 4chan jokingly refer to him as Jordan "Peterstein"--they generally see him as allied with their perceived enemies (in the form of what they consider "controlled opposition"), based on his own comments on Jews in the past.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Even if the Jews controlled everything what is the point of complaining about it. Making yourself look prejudiced (excellent idea for a straight white male in society now!!) and wallowing in self-pity? Spreading that pain and self-pity to others? Oh you’re a loser? What do you want others to say, “#MeToo, boohoo”?

    Making excuses is the best way to stay poor forever. GLHF!

    No. What you do is suck it up, quit whining and leverage everything you can. Otherwise you deserve to be wiped out compared to those who, instead of complaining about others, are silently hauling ass day in day out to get out of their situation. Also, a lot of the time so-called limitations that society has “given you” don’t really exist or can be transformed into advantages if you push and search hard enough. If you have already decided you’re fucked already, all you do is dig your own grave.

    Like if you’re a tall, non-stupid, non-ugly straight white male AND you’re uncircumcised. What more do you need???? Just because you believe you’re a bit poor, well then what does that make the rest of us LOL. Jesus Christ. If you aren’t willing to give concessions in how you relate to other people, I don’t expect that you’re making the necessary concessions in your life that you need to be taking if you want to get ahead. Period. It tells me, no, you DON’T know “the struggle”. You don’t want to win or to get out bad enough. How the fuck did you afford all your toys, time to game and pursue your hobbies, and time to go on the forum? What’s next lol. Do you have a swimming pool in your backyard? What else is new. RIP and good riddance. Learn or die, like all other people who have undergone oppression throughout human history.

    Plus even if you’re gonna perish, you wanna do it without ever really trying, while blaming the Jews? LOL. The worst, most undignified faggot way to die.
    I brought up the jews because the vast majority of people don't know anything about them and why anti-semitism ever became a thing in the first place. My point was to showcase how Peterson, seen by some as a bold revolutionary philosopher challenging, is really puppet towards general consensus and is a coward when it comes to approaching the truly controversial topics.

    You are simply not understanding not me at all about the work/capitalism, though I don't blame as what I'm talking about is bit complicated and I didn't fully explain myself.

    To make myself clear, thing the arguing I'm about is why I think we should have a Nationalistic/fascist government and economy over the pseudo democratic globalist corporate-oligarchy of today.

    The idea behind nationalism/fascism is not just about taking from the rich to make the poor wealthy, which is the domain socialism/communism, but to instead motivate and inspire the poor into productivity through cultivating national brotherhood and focusing on making work more humane. Modern capitalism motivates people mainly through their materialistic desires which leads to gluttony, indulgence in shallow pleasures, toxic work environment that squeeze workers of all the energy for the benefit of the company, anti-consumerist practices, employees backstabbing each other to climb ladders, etc. Fascism seeks maximum symbiosis between the people and the state, and as such companies are no longer permitted to act to the detriment of the people, nor are homeless losers ignored on the streets.

    Anyway what I'm talking about requires taking a whole other perspective and historical and philosophical digging to understand fully so I'll stop. In my view of things, "suck it up" is the defeatist mindset, not the other way around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    To make myself clear, thing the arguing I'm about is why I think we should have a Nationalistic/fascist government and economy over the pseudo democratic globalist corporate-oligarchy of today.

    The idea behind nationalism/fascism is not just about taking from the rich to make the poor wealthy, which is the domain socialism/communism, but to instead motivate and inspire the poor into productivity through cultivating national brotherhood and focusing on making work more humane. Modern capitalism motivates people mainly through their materialistic desires which leads to gluttony, indulgence in shallow pleasures, toxic work environment that squeeze workers of all the energy for the benefit of the company, anti-consumerist practices, employees backstabbing each other to climb ladders, etc. Fascism seeks maximum symbiosis between the people and the state, and as such companies are no longer permitted to act to the detriment of the people, nor are homeless losers ignored on the streets.
    "Our social welfare system is so much more than just charity. Because we do not say to the rich people: Please, give something to the poor. Instead we say: German people, help yourself! Everyone must help, whether you are rich or poor! Everyone must have the belief that there’s always someone in a much ... worse situation than I am, and this person I want to help as a comrade.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    I brought up the jews because the vast majority of people don't know anything about them and why anti-semitism ever became a thing in the first place. My point was to showcase how Peterson, seen by some as a bold revolutionary philosopher challenging, is really puppet towards general consensus and is a coward when it comes to approaching the truly controversial topics.

    You are simply not understanding not me at all about the work/capitalism, though I don't blame as what I'm talking about is bit complicated and I didn't fully explain myself.

    To make myself clear, thing the arguing I'm about is why I think we should have a Nationalistic/fascist government and economy over the pseudo democratic globalist corporate-oligarchy of today.

    The idea behind nationalism/fascism is not just about taking from the rich to make the poor wealthy, which is the domain socialism/communism, but to instead motivate and inspire the poor into productivity through cultivating national brotherhood and focusing on making work more humane. Modern capitalism motivates people mainly through their materialistic desires which leads to gluttony, indulgence in shallow pleasures, toxic work environment that squeeze workers of all the energy for the benefit of the company, anti-consumerist practices, employees backstabbing each other to climb ladders, etc. Fascism seeks maximum symbiosis between the people and the state, and as such companies are no longer permitted to act to the detriment of the people, nor are homeless losers ignored on the streets.

    Anyway what I'm talking about requires taking a whole other perspective and historical and philosophical digging to understand fully so I'll stop. In my view of things, "suck it up" is the defeatist mindset, not the other way around.
    Yeah yeah, you bitching manchild. Spend less money and time on guns and gaming first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by COOL AND MANLY View Post
    http://www.in2013dollars.com/1910-do...010?amount=100

    2275% cumulative inflation rate in a 100 year period. That is around 3% inflation rate per year. From 1910 to 2010.

    http://www.pewresearch.org/wp-conten...e_adjusted.png

    Your second picture practically says salaries increased slightly when we adjust for inflation. Meaning they are keeping up with inflation. How is this an argument in your favour?

    http://www.in2013dollars.com/1964-do...18?amount=2.50

    Basically income increased 4% per year on average from 1964 to 2018.

    House cost in 1958 is $11,975 according to your sources. Average income: $4,650 per year.

    I'm not sure how you did your math but that is not a third of your salary. It's more than double/triple your salary. It's actually insanely similar to the current situation.

    Sorry for not replying earlier. I didn't want to involve myself in your conversation with Ave. I like to hear others thoughts even when we disagree. I enjoyed reading your exchange.
    No worries on the late response, I'm glad you enjoyed it. Anyways, that was a typo on my part, I meant to say that the salary covers about a third of the housing cost, which is actually very different than today. I'll use different examples to illustrate my point because the main issue comes down to largely the cost of living in purchasing homes and condos rather than the cost of other items.



    If you divide the cost of a new house with the average salary in 1953 like so:

    9,525 / 4,011 = 2.37

    It amounts to roughly the cost of a house being 2.37 times greater than a yearly salary.

    Let's fast forward 30 years to see the difference:



    82,600 / 21,073 = 3.91

    The cost of a new house in 1983 was 3.91 times greater than the average yearly salary, which is a noticeable increase from being 2.37 times greater in 1953.

    Now, let's fast forward to roughly the present day, which is 35 years later to illustrate my point further:

    Let's look at October 2018, where the average American household income was $63,220:

    https://seekingalpha.com/article/423...usehold-income

    Also, the cost of a new American house in October 2018 was $395,000:

    https://www.census.gov/construction/...uspricemon.pdf

    So if we do the math, it is:

    395,000 / 63,220 = 6.25

    The average cost of a house in the US in 2018 was 6.25 times greater than the average US household salary in 2018, which is a big difference compared to 3.91 times greater in 1983 and 2.37 times greater in 1953. It would be important to note that the difference is significantly greater between the average US home and the average US salary if you go to American cities with ludicrous housing costs like San Francisco, New York and Seattle. However, it's only fair that I use the average US housing cost of the nation as a whole and not the average housing cost of those US cities. So basically my point is that salaries are not keeping with the rising cost of inflation specifically with the purchase of homes and condos.

    Salaries may be keeping up with inflation in terms of purchasing of other items, but I think it's safe to say that the most important factor for quality of life and standard of living is the homes and condos we are able to afford to purchase. In some cities, the cost of homes and condos are still reasonable, but unfortunately in other cities they are far too expensive. This shows how slowly over time, the poor and the middle class will find affordable housing to purchase more difficult to come by as time goes by as the slow increase of housing costs is not something that our salaries are keeping up with, which means our standard of living is slowly decreasing over time.

    This only benefits the 1% that are easily able to profit off the increasing housing costs, for which they sell once the price increases or simply allow lower class citizens to rent. Let's not forget another important factor here. In 1953, it was typical of the majority of households to have the husband working with one salary to provide the income for the entire family, while the wife provided at home. In 1983, you were more likely to find women working to help provide for the household and family compared to 1953, but still not as much as today. Finally, in 2018 it is safe to say that the majority of women help provide an income for the family along with the men.

    So not only have housing prices increased considerably compared to the household salary, we now need two incomes instead of one income like we did in 1953 to provide for the family making the problem even worse than it appears. Some say the income disparity occurred due to the increase of the labor market from women entering the workforce, but that is another debate in and of itself and this situation could have other factors contributing. Also, to be fair I used the household income in 2018 rather than a single income in 2018, which would of revealed a greater disparity between the average income and the cost of new homes.
    Last edited by Raver; 01-10-2019 at 05:33 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Yeah yeah, you bitching manchild. Spend less money and time on guns and gaming first.
    I love this really. Here I am, a fascist, the so-called devil to human kind, and yet here you are, a supporter benign American capitalism, who can do literally do nothing but assault with ad hominems. I feel sorry that you have been sucked so much into this dysfunctional, neurotically driven society that grants prestige to individuals based on their accumulation of material and wealth rather then virtues like honor, bravery, honesty, benevolence and loyalty. That was what the samurai era Japanese built their society around, and it gave them centuries of rich culture, happiness and meaning unlike what we have today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    I love this really. Here I am, a fascist, the so-called devil to human kind, and yet here you are, a supporter benign American capitalism, who can do literally do nothing but assault with ad hominems. I feel sorry that you have been sucked so much into this dysfunctional, neurotically driven society that grants prestige to individuals based on their accumulation of material and wealth rather then virtues like honor, bravery, honesty, benevolence and loyalty. That was what the samurai era Japanese built their society around, and it gave them centuries of rich culture, happiness and meaning unlike what we have today.
    Disregard mis-typed LIEs. Acquire Carl Schmitt's society and the Fascist Aesthetic.
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  35. #115
    f.k.a Oprah sbbds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    I love this really. Here I am, a fascist, the so-called devil to human kind, and yet here you are, a supporter benign American capitalism, who can do literally do nothing but assault with ad hominems. I feel sorry that you have been sucked so much into this dysfunctional, neurotically driven society that grants prestige to individuals based on their accumulation of material and wealth rather then virtues like honor, bravery, honesty, benevolence and loyalty. That was what the samurai era Japanese built their society around, and it gave them centuries of rich culture, happiness and meaning unlike what we have today.
    This is so contradictory.

    If you’re in a tight situation, you don’t have time to care about honor and bravery LOL. So you basically confirm you’re full of it with regard to not trying hard enough.

    Also Japanese society is not built around samurai concepts you weeb. I reiterate, spend less time on gaming.

  36. #116
    f.k.a Oprah sbbds's Avatar
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    You’re basically living your life as the male counterpart to an obese SJW woman. Ad hominem but true.

    And at least I can assault you with ad hominems, which are true and funny as fuck, while you can’t do anything.

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    It’s like when some homeless Native / First Nations dude randomly lashed out at my dad, who grew up very disadvantaged. He said “you white people are just painted pieces of shit”. My dad replied, “At least I’m painted.”

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    But actually you can do something, which is to stop being a fucking loser.

  39. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    But actually you can do something, which is to stop being a fucking loser.
    First off why did you make the presumption of me complaining about being poor? Is that your own neurotic thoughts towards being "successful" in the eyes of society today being projected? I never said anywhere here that I was poor. I'll admit, I do think my situation leaves some to be desired but for you to judge me as a loser when you have no precise knowledge of my situation is completely thickheaded. I not speaking solely about things that effect me personally but the things I observe happening both to the people in my local area in the trends happening through history and the world. And the idea of changing and combating these things motivates me far more then obtaining some extra bucks.

    If you think the nationalist sentiment is exclusive to losers who live with their parents you are soarly mistake. My step-dad (whom I've had personal clashes with in the past, but I digress) for example makes around $24 with lots of overtime hours as an inspector at a manufacturing as well as being a landlord who collects rent. He too is a nationalist and sees the same exact shit I do that's degrading the country. The military as well is one the demographics that houses the largest percentage of people who are nationalistic. Are they losers to?

    And I got news for you, if you don't think civil war in the future is a possibility you are gravely mistaken. It doesn't take masses of angry people suddenly leaving their homes to attack one another to start a civil war. All it takes is a few key high ranking generals and politicians to decide, "You know what, I've had enough of this shit" to take matters into their own hands and create a domino effect that explodes into a civil war within a matter of days. It's happened many many times in various countries throughout history and even in recent history. With the current political divide it's more possible now then it's been in decades. This is why the hard-left globalist are pushing gun control so much, because it tends to be rural people who buy guns and rural people tend to be nationalist. There is also a high likely hood a good portion if not the majority of the military would side with the nationalist due to what I said before about nationalist being type of people who are likely to join the military. In such an event all the liberal media outlets, corrupt businesses, wall street bankers, SJWs, puppet conservatives and all the supporters of this shitty globalist capitalist system would be saying bye-bye.

  40. #120
    DRANG NACH BETA NF Oppai Anschluss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    I not speaking solely about things that effect me personally but the things I observe happening both to the people in my local area in the trends happening through history and the world. And the idea of changing and combating these things motivates me far more then obtaining some extra bucks.
    Literally what Gulenko says the Beta quad does, not this cringey "time is money" noise about individual will irrespective of groups, systems, and one's facticity.
    Last edited by Oppai Anschluss; 01-10-2019 at 08:45 AM.
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