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    Default Trauma and effect on type - personal musings

    Last edited by VenusRose; 12-03-2018 at 02:09 PM.

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    IME stress or traumatic events make one cling more to ego functions and less able to balance them and act from other functions 3 4 5 & 6.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    IME stress or traumatic events make one cling more to ego functions and less able to balance them and act from other functions 3 4 5 & 6.
    I diagree, clinging to either ego or super ego functions can happen, and both are terrible for a person. It's true some functions are thrown to hell.
    I would even go as far as saying that a person can cling to both ego and super ego depending on situations, oh wonderful unconsistancy, which can create an even bigger fracture in the sense of self. IME.
    @Venus Rose this made me think, I can't agree or disagree with what you said about ID and super ID, though I think it's an interesting idea to look at. Thank you for sharing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderland View Post
    I diagree, clinging to either ego or super ego functions can happen, and both are terrible for a person. It's true some functions are thrown to hell.
    I would even go as far as saying that a person can cling to both ego and super ego depending on situations, oh wonderful unconsistancy, which can create an even bigger fracture in the sense of self. IME.
    @Venus Rose this made me think, I can't agree or disagree with what you said about ID and super ID, though I think it's an interesting idea to look at. Thank you for sharing.
    No I actually do agree with you somewhat but view it as a stage. Only in extreme cases does one perhaps cling to the ego and can't rely on other aspects of the psyche anymore because one has become exhausted and needs basic natural input to feed on again.
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    I think it may depend on what your ego functions actually are, and whether the trauma occurred during your development, and many other things. For example, in PTSD proper, narrowing your circle of contacts and having a foreclosed sense of the future both can occur. In my own case, this has possibly interfered with my ego functions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venus Rose View Post
    Developmental trauma often causes a tremendous amount of stress on the self, the sense of it, and the development of it. So in that way, it will likely affect the personality type, I would think.
    Dramatic traumas aside, the adaptations required to get by well as an adult consistently well in a given society may vary a lot from type to type. Some types might have it easier than others and have to adapt less than being themselves. My own research has shown LSIs to type ISTJ consistently on type tests whereas those of other types tend to have variable results. That could be due to poor test bias or perhaps societies let LSIs be themselves most easily here in the USA.
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    Lacking context sucks. @vesstheastralsilky @Venus Rose

    Unrelated: I wonder if having been encouraged or discouraged to use ego functions could affect which of ego or super ego gets the spotlight?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderland View Post
    Lacking context sucks. @vesstheastralsilky @Venus Rose

    Unrelated: I wonder if having been encouraged or discouraged to use ego functions could affect which of ego or super ego gets the spotlight?
    Oh definitely, I think so. My father supervises me as an LSE and the more I act Te the more possible it was to coexist. When I am getting by yet not happy, I will test as my SuperEgo INTP easily on type tests that read like MBTI. But when I am happiest it is easy to identify as ISFP. And jobwise, if left to my own devices I would socially be a starving artist... Unless I was lucky enough to get famous when I was young. So fears about selfprovision prompt one to develop skills to get on with other types who naturally fit the economic models for work better... At least for me and folks like me.
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    I cant give any useful input in regard to typology in a broader sense but for myself and in extension my type it has affected my emotional development.
    There has been instances where I go blank and 'see red' so to speak, I've been told that my pupils have expanded to the point of blotting out my irises.
    Nothing like that has happened recently but I can still feel it coming on if I am put in a situation where I am unable to defend myself the way I want when someone slights me.

    The most fascinating part of it though is how it has made it's mark on my sexual preferences, making me completely dominant and somewhat sadistic. (Don't confuse that what abuse though, which is something completely different.) From what I understand about the origin of fetishism it's often correlated with turning a need upside down.
    If you've been made to feel powerless, being powerful can become your fetish etc. A phenomenon like that will much likely integrate well with socionics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Remiel View Post
    If you've been made to feel powerless, being powerful can become your fetish etc. A phenomenon like that will much likely integrate well with socionics.
    I remember reading about the opposite, men who had power in work, family settings ftom a young age who go to dominatrix. Humans are fascinating.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky
    Oh definitely, I think so. My father supervises me as an LSE and the more I act Te the more possible it was to coexist. When I am getting by yet not happy, I will test as my SuperEgo INTP easily on type tests that read like MBTI. But when I am happiest it is easy to identify as ISFP. And jobwise, if left to my own devices I would socially be a starving artist... Unless I was lucky enough to get famous when I was young. So fears about selfprovision prompt one to develop skills to get on with other types who naturally fit the economic models for work better... At least for me and folks like me.

    Explains why you're off for a SEI. I lived a similar thing with my mother, whom I cannot type. I think she lived the same with her parents and is all over the place too.

    Last edited by Aeris; 12-01-2018 at 09:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderland View Post
    I remember reading about the opposite, men who had power in work, family settings ftom a young age who go to dominatrix. Humans are fascinating.
    That's not the opposite, it's the exact thing I said. They have power, they desire giving it and responsibility up by going to a dominatrix. Making them sexually submissive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Remiel View Post
    That's not the opposite, it's the exact thing I said. They have power, they desire giving it and responsibility up by going to a dominatrix. Making them sexually submissive.
    It depends on the angle you take. Same kind of happenstances, looking for what you lacked, but opposite thing lacked, haha.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderland View Post
    It depends on the angle you take. Same kind of happenstances, looking for what you lacked, but opposite thing lacked, haha.
    Seems pretty straight forward to me. I think you're twisting it around one too many times in your noggin. Anything can be angled if you have no interest in being right.

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    I should add that is not without significant impairment to my own potential for happiness and stress levels, regardless of how well I develop other functions. There is still a heart core to type and still a balance to ideally be maintained.
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    This will depend on the type IMO, and it's not really related to specific functions. For example, an Se ego type is more likely to lash out or have inappropriately violent behavior, types with higher Ni will tend to withdraw or become paralyzed with inaction, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    For example, an Se ego type is more likely to lash out or have inappropriately violent behavior, types with higher Ni will tend to withdraw or become paralyzed with inaction, etc.
    Yep.

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    Short stress generally has no long time consequences.
    Long problems lead to distress and exhaustion. In a state exhaustion people supress expression of weak (especially nonvalued) functions, what accentuates the type.

    > The individual will likely not seek out those that could really help him (super-id block), focusing on their weaker functions

    Should be the opposite. Accentuation of the type should make stronger IR effects and hence the attraction to the people of good IR will be stronger too. Also should be arised the wish of external support in superid region.

    > All of this will cause added stress, including headaches, nightmares, feelings of anguish and being unable to deal with what one is going through.

    More supressed weak functions manifest in wilder way and disorganise the normal conscious work as neurotic disorders of different degrees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venus Rose View Post
    Yes, I addressed that here though...
    Sort of. The ego functions are generally used more than other functions, even when healthy. I'm not saying they're necessarily used more, just in a more unhealthy way. Trauma may manifest in other ways too, though. I've seen ESEs become more withdrawn which actually goes against their default behavior rather than accentuating it.

    The generalizations you make about the other blocks are more far-fetched - the idea of a "PoLR hit" is problematic in the first place IMO. If you gave some examples it would be clearer.

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    I reflected a few minutes before I wrote this...
    The path with my own emotional problems started probably at my birth. I don't remember my own birth of course, but my parents told me that I could have died at my birth. There were serious complications and I barely survived it. I don't know the exact details but the oxygen in my blood dropped to a critical low level. Luckily the medical personal managed to prevent lasting damage to my neuronal system.
    Also some bad injuries happend in my childhood; e.g. fell down stairs made of concrete
    The consequences are: My self-preservation instinct is hightend, I try to minimize physical danger for myself.
    I perceive minor threats in the environment stronger than they are.
    It took me many years to deal with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    I reflected a few minutes before I wrote this...
    The path with my own emotional problems started probably at my birth. I don't remember my own birth of course, but my parents told me that I could have died at my birth. There were serious complications and I barely survived it. I don't know the exact details but the oxygen in my blood dropped to a critical low level. Luckily the medical personal managed to prevent lasting damage to my neuronal system.
    Also some bad injuries happend in my childhood; e.g. fell down stairs made of concrete
    The consequences are: My self-preservation instinct is hightend, I try to minimize physical danger for myself.
    I perceive minor threats in the environment stronger than they are.
    It took me many years to deal with it.
    :sad: So sorry for your misfortune.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    :sad: So sorry for your misfortune.
    Thank you.
    I ask myself if that early event in my life may have altered my type. I was helpless and unable to prevent what happend to me, does this made me a -PoLR type?
    Force was useless, so I looked for an other way to deal with it.

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    There are views that dynamic types have more susceptibility to become unstable as they have troubles when it comes to balancing themselves whereas static types have easier time to gather themselves together.
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    It's not possible to overuse the ego block. What happens is that the lack of energy does not permit activation of the superid block, and the superego jump-starts the id, contradicting the ego.

    A split personality develops, with two parts: the self and anti-self. The ego and superid, versus the id and superego. Destruction of the ego results in psychosis.

    The solution to trauma in the context of type is ego re-education. In other words, teaching people to be themselves again.

    The apparent overuse of ego functions is really just an attempt by the psyche to maintain control over itself. It's a re-assertion in the face of stress. It's not really a type dynamic but an assertion of the ego with added force. "If it won't work in first gear, throw it into second and see what happens."

    Maintaining the ego under stress often requires paradoxical activity that's kind of difficult to put into words. The attempt to increase and maintain internal tension to reinforce the ego can squelch its activity and allow the id-superego loop to persist. So the solution is often to let go completely even though it feels like you'll lose yourself in doing so. The principle is illustrated in Taoism through the idea of wu-wei, or action through non-action. It's also illustrated in mythology through the dying and rising god myths. It's also in Star Wars and Harry Potter and a bunch of other fictional stories.

    This stuff is actually pretty complicated, but that's the basic idea. Very basic. There are lots of other parts to the process that make it work in practice.
    Last edited by Aramas; 12-02-2018 at 02:56 AM.

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    Block wise:
    Ego. Bit hard to describe it directly as it seems to the state to be in. Automatic.

    I have certainly tried to grasp my id-block. Ignoring part has caused some inertia. OK, I have imagination that has moving elements in it and always has lots of some sort of vague cautioning moments. I consider it quite active. The demonstrative part of it always says I can handle it or train it with ease. I have particularly no objections doing it. However it seems like being productive with it is a turn off.

    Super-ego. Well, I hate lots of stuff in role. It is like I carry through some obligations with it and I do not want to strain others for not using it which is probably my main motive. Let's get over with it. I also don't want to appear completely out of resourcefulness in here. PoLR, that is the place of partial blindness when I use my creative. I try to be reasonable and I consider it as a place to gain some control. That is mainly in relation other people and not what society says. I might become bit paralyzed by direct feedback in here.

    super-id: OK, cool. Mobilizing comes to forefront when there are triggering elements that might require it or just for shit and giggles.

    So, I think I might become quite pissed off or conflicted if I had to be a person who completely lives off from role and id. Subtype might give some difference in here. Like I have seen SEI-N who nags about being optimal with Ni procedures and seems to be quite OK with role but is also quite sterile with light use of ego.
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    Sometimes the type "takes over" the personality. The person "becomes his type". It's as if the type itself is a complex that becomes independent from the rest of the psyche. I think this happens naturally when we work, but then afterwards we usually go back to our real selves again. The point here is that the type is not the whole personality and accentuation of the type is a neurosis in itself.

    It's just something I've obseved, and I think anybody can observe. It happens when stressed or maybe from trauma also.


    Quote Originally Posted by Venus Rose View Post
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    The Super-ego block is specially sensitive to trauma, abuse, and other psychological injuries. The easiest way to wound a person is by hitting them in their vulnerable function(s), since the individual is unable to recognize what is appropriate or not, in this block. That is, they are unable to recognize abuse for what it is. They feel that the abuser is justified in what they are doing, specially if the abuser insists so.
    Part of this I would put under suggestive function. This is where we are bad at evaluating stuff and can easily get influenced. The PoLR on the other hand is very sensitive and we can sometimes spend lots of time trying to digest things. But overload of PoLR is definitely recognized and people often withdraw from those situations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Sometimes the type "takes over" the personality. The person "becomes his type". It's as if the type itself is a complex that becomes independent from the rest of the psyche.
    Something not uncommon on the type of forums such as this one. I've noticed that people tend to overidentify with their type and then in turn act the way they think their type would act. Maby because they are afraid of having their self typing contested. Thereby defeating the whole puropse of typing to begin with, all for some cultivated facade and self idealization.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Remiel View Post
    Something not uncommon on the type of forums such as this one. I've noticed that people tend to overidentify with their type and then in turn act the way they think their type would act. Maby because they are afraid of having their self typing contested. Thereby defeating the whole puropse of typing to begin with, all for some cultivated facade and self idealization.
    Alternatively, I think it’s natural for people to cultivate a vision of their future selves. It happens IRL too and I don’t think it’s unnatural or unhealthy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Alternatively, I think it’s natural for people to cultivate a vision of their future selves. It happens IRL too and I don’t think it’s unnatural or unhealthy.
    I never said anything about it being unhealthy, however I think it's pathetic. Do what thou wilt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Remiel View Post
    I never said anything about it being unhealthy, however I think it's pathetic. Do what thou wilt.
    It’s not pathetic if you’re having a vision of an improved self that you’re aspiring towards.

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    I happen to believe that "type" is something which is set very early, probably before birth. How one reacts to trauma is probably characteristic of ones' type and other characteristics, such as instincts, enneagram, level of healthiness, how much support a person can find to counteract trauma, etc.

    I have no doubt, though, that trauma affects a person's life.

    My two younger siblings and I were raised in a family where the LSE mother was a violent narcissist and the SLI father was absent and didn't defend us against her in the little amount of time he was around. This profoundly affected me and my sisters.

    I, an LIE and the oldest, to this day feel like a case of severely retarded development. I didn't have a GF until I was 25 and still feel like I missed the boat on most of life. My life didn't really start until I escaped my parent's house. However, my experiences may have affected how my LIE-ness manifests, because I find I am extremely protective of the weak, and cold and vengeful towards abusers, which is something that I don't particularly see in most other LIE's whom I know IRL. They seem to be content to reap society's rewards without considering how those rewards came about, or who might have been harmed in the process.

    My next younger sister, an LSE, married an IEI because she was comfortable with being hated and conflicted. They don't have any kids.

    My youngest sister, an LII, collapsed into herself, tried to drink herself to death, has had a few bad marriages, is now married to an LSE (same type as her abusive mother, so she's still trying to fix that relationship) and has a "no contact" rule with our parents. She, also, doesn't have any kids.

    Each of us reacted slightly differently to similar trauma, but I don't think it affected our types, per se.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 12-02-2018 at 07:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    ........I find I am extremely protective of the weak and cold and vengeful towards abusers........
    People under stress often manifest dual-like personas and ESIs have been known to often behave like a self-righteous Jeanne d'Arcs. I would guess that you had been in dual mode a lot as a child - and now it's automatic.

    I've met some war vets who underwent such severe trauma that type was no longer distinguishable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I happen to believe that "type" is something which is set very early, probably before birth. How one reacts to trauma is probably characteristic of ones' type and other characteristics, such as instincts, enneagram, level of healthiness, how much support a person can find to counteract trauma, etc.

    I have no doubt, though, that trauma affects a person's life.

    My two younger siblings and I were raised in a family where the LSE mother was a violent narcissist and the SLI father was absent and didn't defend us against her in the little amount of time he was around. This profoundly affected me and my sisters.

    I, an LIE and the oldest, to this day feel like a case of severely retarded development. I didn't have a GF until I was 25 and still feel like I missed the boat on most of life. My life didn't really start until I escaped my parent's house. However, my experiences may have affected how my LIE-ness manifests, because I find I am extremely protective of the weak, and cold and vengeful towards abusers, which is something that I don't particularly see in most other LIE's whom I know IRL. They seem to be content to reap society's rewards without considering how those rewards came about, or who might have been harmed in the process.

    My next younger sister, an LSE, married an IEI because she was comfortable with being hated and conflicted. They don't have any kids.

    My youngest sister, an LII, collapsed into herself, tried to drink herself to death, has had a few bad marriages, is now married to an LSE (same type as her abusive mother, so she's still trying to fix that relationship) and has a "no contact" rule with our parents. She, also, doesn't have any kids.

    Each of us reacted slightly differently to similar trauma, but I don't think it affected our types, per se.
    It seems like a pattern develops eh? Your parents stole your life and you don't want to spend what's left of it on kids. It's a good way to not perpetuate trauma anyway. Can't repeat a cycle if you don't make one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    It seems like a pattern develops eh? Your parents stole your life and you don't want to spend what's left of it on kids. It's a good way to not perpetuate trauma anyway. Can't repeat a cycle if you don't make one.
    &Aramas, no, I don’t think that’s the reason why they didn’t have kids. They have both stated that they are afraid that they would screw up their kids as badly as they, themselves, were screwed up.
    Personally, I think that they’d both make better parents than our parents were, but it’s not my decision.

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    Feeling fucking fantastic golden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I happen to believe that "type" is something which is set very early, probably before birth. How one reacts to trauma is probably characteristic of ones' type and other characteristics, such as instincts, enneagram, level of healthiness, how much support a person can find to counteract trauma, etc.

    I have no doubt, though, that trauma affects a person's life.

    My two younger siblings and I were raised in a family where the LSE mother was a violent narcissist and the SLI father was absent and didn't defend us against her in the little amount of time he was around. This profoundly affected me and my sisters.

    I, an LIE and the oldest, to this day feel like a case of severely retarded development. I didn't have a GF until I was 25 and still feel like I missed the boat on most of life. My life didn't really start until I escaped my parent's house. However, my experiences may have affected how my LIE-ness manifests, because I find I am extremely protective of the weak, and cold and vengeful towards abusers, which is something that I don't particularly see in most other LIE's whom I know IRL. They seem to be content to reap society's rewards without considering how those rewards came about, or who might have been harmed in the process.

    My next younger sister, an LSE, married an IEI because she was comfortable with being hated and conflicted. They don't have any kids.

    My youngest sister, an LII, collapsed into herself, tried to drink herself to death, has had a few bad marriages, is now married to an LSE (same type as her abusive mother, so she's still trying to fix that relationship) and has a "no contact" rule with our parents. She, also, doesn't have any kids.

    Each of us reacted slightly differently to similar trauma, but I don't think it affected our types, per se.
    I also have become extremely protective of the weak and have a killer instinct toward abusers. I’ve even put myself in danger a few times in the city to protect people. I think it’s a combination of being a parent, which made me more likely to catalog every threat in my environment and analyse who is vulnerable to the threats, and having been through situations where I experienced other people with their heads wrapped in bystander-effect gauze, and just simple hypervigilance.

    I wasn’t always like this because when I was younger I probably didn’t think I had the power to intervene. The change came in adulthood, not even young adulthood, and it feels like a set of strategies and preferences appended to me and not arising directly from my core personality.

    I think also the influence of an Se dominant 8 taught me some of these behaviors.

    So where @Rebelondeck is attributing this sort of thing to ESIness, which I can understand the justification for, ime this is a reaction to my past and a personal choice I made about how I want to live my life—I will come to the aid of someone in trouble if I can, systemically I’m ready to mobilize, and my safety is not necessarily more important to me than someone else’s.

    I’ve seen too much to make a different choice.
    LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”

    Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”

    LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by golden View Post
    ......So where @Rebelondeck is attributing this sort of thing to ESIness,........
    While under stress, for which one is not coping well, behaviour can be colored by dual-like processing. I certainly didn't mean to imply that caring for others was limited to ESIness; it's more about the way one goes about caring. One can achieve the same result from various processing configurations. For example, EIEs have been known to act rashly (impatiently?) and put themselves in danger whereas LSIs will often think before heading into the breach but this doesn't imply they won't go; when EIEs are in real impending danger, they've been known to get pensive and actually grow quiet......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    I had the thought as a teen that if I had had an easier childhood, I would be one hell of an asshole.
    Funny how trauma seems, from just this thread, to sooth edges or sharpen them regarding what we start with.
    I read a lot about becoming tougher, the softening counterpart, I think, is less discussed... or at least not at long lenght. Hm...

    I like taoism and the idea of action through non-action @Aramas brough up. It's a thing I try to keep in mind actually. It feels like I am nothing when I manage to be that, it's at the same time scary and relieving.
    I sometimes get the impression that many spiritual stuff say the same thing but for different people. One just have to find which words resonate with themselves. Or make them, whatev.
    Like there is an "ultimate truth" but also not. Anyhoo.

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    My response to trauma as an adolescent was emotional instability/bpd-like behavior, nihilistic risk-seeking, hypersexuality. Maybe some of it was just teenbrain - some of it leaked into adulthood but was tempered by my ability to self regulate and gauge consequences. I guess this is somewhat consistent with gamma sf ego functions if that's what you type me but they're such common symptoms that i'm skeptical that it's related to type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    My response to trauma as an adolescent was emotional instability/bpd-like behavior, nihilistic risk-seeking, hypersexuality
    behavior = personal traits + environment
    besides Jung's type and age there are different traits

    hypersexuality is common for manic phases
    nihilistic risk-seeking may correlate with bipolar disorder too

    bipolar disorders (and mb border states) have genetic predisposition

    > Maybe some of it was just teenbrain

    in teenager times psyche is lesser stable and some behavior anomalies appear easier
    also kids have no other people to care about and hence feel lesser need to behave reasonably. they tend to experiment for a fun
    also with aging people study to control the behavior and biology some improves to make it easier

    The approach "something made my mood bad and that somehow has changed radically my behavior" is doubtful and too partial. Base Fi types, like possibly miss Rose has, tend to see and explain the world through their personal feelings.
    For example, she tried to asure me that her clear Se valued art taste is the result of external influence, but not from her types predispositions. Nice try. Fresh approach in heresies.

    Quote Originally Posted by aster View Post
    I'm evidently 99% more susceptible to developing PTSD than the general population. TBH I wasn't surprised by that. How accurate it is, I'm not sure. But I suppose some people are just more genetically susceptible and they have identified the gene they believe is responsible. I don't think I have PTSD, but I just thought it was interesting
    E9 keep much inside and this may predispose to PTSD. to get it you'd need to get a strong shock. with safe life this will not happen even you have the predisposition

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venus Rose View Post
    The ego block will likely be overused in an unhealthy way, where the individual over-does what he naturally does well, causing many around him to be repelled as they see him as rather extreme in his behavior. This may be due to anxiety, paranoia, and general sense of not being able to feel safe. He will get the feeling that his ego functions are not enough, and he needs more in order to go back to feeling safe and healthy again. There will be denial that serious trauma often causes long-term consequences, and the individual may initially deny the seriousness of his psychological injury and assume that he is going to quickly be able to go back to the way he used to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venus Rose View Post
    All of this will cause added stress, including headaches, nightmares, feelings of anguish and being unable to deal with what one is going through. The best way to break out of that cycle is to focus once again on what you are strong at (ego) and what helps you and soothes you most (super-id).
    This seems like a contradiction.

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