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Thread: Duality and love

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    Default Duality and love

    I'm french and I don't express myself well.

    I want to get back to a citation that ive seen somewhere (thx for the author, sorry I didn't took the name with the quote)

    I would actually argue that EIIs are not naturally built for LSEs in terms of appearance/behavior/traits (nor are LSEs for EIIs, etc.). In my experience, it is usually the case that LSE does not really notice EII for a while. EII is usually nondescript, plain, quiet, unnoticed and gently supporting in social situations, while LSE is instinctively attracted to power, beauty, and status, people who are talking charismatically and in control. I also recall an obscure blog about an ESI and her LIE partner--she mentioned that at first he felt like he was "settling" for her because she was not as glamorous as the partners he was used to. I think something similar would apply to EII-LSE.

    If EII shows dedicated interest and admiration (which does not always happen, because many EII/people in general aren't really attracted to their duals), only then does LSE start to take notice. This is true of romantic relationships or even same-gender platonic friendships (I literally drew a portrait of one of my classmates, an LSE woman, before we were friends). After this, what LSE likes is that EII is very genuine, guileless, honest, trustworthy, reliable. LSE likes feeling understood, and EII understands people better than most types. I also think LSE likes being reassured of his/her own morality, empathy, and compassion by EII for some reason, though that might be a post for another day.

    In some ways, EII is naturally built for LSE, but in others ways, we are very much not built for LSEs. Some (perhaps lucky) people are naturally attracted to their dual, but I would argue this is not close to the majority.
    This is something I'm not sure I noticed, because my LSE ex girlfriend was in love with myself even more than I was. The problem was more myself. Anyway, after this ex, I didn't know a LSE for a long time (just had a 10 day story with an INFP).
    But this is, with time, something Ive came to understand more and more, especially looking to the dynamic of dominant male ESTJ with normalizing female INFJ, and Ive come to the conclusion that this reasonning can be somewhat extrapoled to approximatelly all form of duality. If you dig a little, love is bullshit, that's the simple conclusion.

    I don't know if you a versed in bs like TheRedPill reddit problematic, the rethoric is based almost only on the problem of the citation. Ppl, from a very young age, and to a very old age, are expecting unconditionnal love as if it was something magic. But idk, at some point of my life, and with the help of my experience + socionic, I came to understand there was a bug and a kind of lie in love after all, and the post I'm quoting is expressing a little the stuff Ive intuitively in my mind. I prefer to not analyze too much that (because srsly I didn't had that much this problem) but I find that this is relatively depressing. I don't know how to express this better and in all honesty I'm waiting for ppl expressing this problem better than myself. The quote express it already very well.

    My doubt are possibly only linked of some of wrong experience of my life previously. Perhaps love exist, idk.


    edit : I want to go a little further with something Ive noticed : ESTJ (I speak for my dual but it's probably the case for every duality) especially when arrogant and "unhealthy" (I don't like this word because it became with time synonym to "immoral" wich have imo nothing very much to do with healthyness, but this is another subject), actually use INFJ ("psychologyze" them in a very bad way, potentially making them feeling very bad) in order to clash with their demonstrative/ignoring in order to actually fight with their real "ennemy", ie INFP. Ive seen this dynamic a bunch of time in youtube and this seem actually to attract bitch/whores/stacy (sorry can't help but be nervous now). The guy is already actually the Chad of the Delta quadra, getting the money, the girl, and everything, plus they try to psychologically kill someone "inferior" socially. Good ESTJ is either depressed ESTJ or ESTJ managing to make INFJ and INFP feel good together instead of trying to look for bad things in INFJ for beginning a war with INFP. Remove my troll aspect and you will perhaps understand somewhat what I try to say, if you have something to say, if you feel it's true, etc. I can't share example as they are more than often in french.
    Last edited by noaydi; 11-27-2018 at 12:59 PM.

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    Love does exist.

    As a matter of fact, I'm feeling deeper than usual lately in love today
    ~* astralsilky

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    But you are alpha.
    Alpha have love and intelligence
    Beta have strenght, passion and art
    Gamma have it all
    Delta have slavery, hell and ressentment

    I need to stop trolling

    back to the subject I'm interested to various input about that.

    For me, from experience, love is either something very strong, a very strong attach that make you forget about reality and make you actually undesirable to your partner (personnal XP).
    Or something cool but not transcendant, but going deeper and deeper with time the more you discover how is the person from particular detail (my longest relationship)

    I didn't experience personnally the stuff "ESTJ take INFJ because last possible choice" but Ive found this a lot of time for dominant ESTJ male <-> INFJ female.
    perhaps same for inverting sex too.
    Imo this kind of stuff is making ppl neurotic. You see often in depression subreddit "I feel like I'm the person last choosed, by default, etc"

    Alpha fuck/beta buck, all that jazz.
    If at least we wasn't aware of our place in the love universe, this neurose would not exist

    I'm inclined to think that as Delta, we have approximately the worst love configuration existing. Perhaps that's just my neurotic side.
    Last edited by noaydi; 11-27-2018 at 01:52 PM.

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    I would very like this thread being discussed, despite my bad expression in the subject. Forget about the neurosis part, you can share even stuff that are a little remote to the subject but still usefull

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    Quote Originally Posted by noaydi View Post
    I'm french and I don't express myself well.

    I want to get back to a citation that ive seen somewhere (thx for the author, sorry I didn't took the name with the quote)



    This is something I'm not sure I noticed, because my LSE ex girlfriend was in love with myself even more than I was. The problem was more myself. Anyway, after this ex, I didn't know a LSE for a long time (just had a 10 day story with an INFP).
    But this is, with time, something Ive came to understand more and more, especially looking to the dynamic of dominant male ESTJ with normalizing female INFJ, and Ive come to the conclusion that this reasonning can be somewhat extrapoled to approximatelly all form of duality. If you dig a little, love is bullshit, that's the simple conclusion.

    I don't know if you a versed in bs like TheRedPill reddit problematic, the rethoric is based almost only on the problem of the citation. Ppl, from a very young age, and to a very old age, are expecting unconditionnal love as if it was something magic. But idk, at some point of my life, and with the help of my experience + socionic, I came to understand there was a bug and a kind of lie in love after all, and the post I'm quoting is expressing a little the stuff Ive intuitively in my mind. I prefer to not analyze too much that (because srsly I didn't had that much this problem) but I find that this is relatively depressing. I don't know how to express this better and in all honesty I'm waiting for ppl expressing this problem better than myself. The quote express it already very well.

    My doubt are possibly only linked of some of wrong experience of my life previously. Perhaps love exist, idk.


    edit : I want to go a little further with something Ive noticed : ESTJ (I speak for my dual but it's probably the case for every duality) especially when arrogant and "unhealthy" (I don't like this word because it became with time synonym to "immoral" wich have imo nothing very much to do with healthyness, but this is another subject), actually use INFJ ("psychologyze" them in a very bad way, potentially making them feeling very bad) in order to clash with their demonstrative/ignoring in order to actually fight with their real "ennemy", ie INFP. Ive seen this dynamic a bunch of time in youtube and this seem actually to attract bitch/whores/stacy (sorry can't help but be nervous now). The guy is already actually the Chad of the Delta quadra, getting the money, the girl, and everything, plus they try to psychologically kill someone "inferior" socially. Good ESTJ is either depressed ESTJ or ESTJ managing to make INFJ and INFP feel good together instead of trying to look for bad things in INFJ for beginning a war with INFP. Remove my troll aspect and you will perhaps understand somewhat what I try to say, if you have something to say, if you feel it's true, etc. I can't share example as they are more than often in french.
    Yeah, unconditional love doesn't exist in my experience. There's always a condition, something you have to be or do, to get it. And if you don't meet people's qualifications, you're not selected. Even in family situations, you have people thought of as "black sheep," which might be an ordinary term for someone born into a bad quadra environment.

    Even with duality, if your values, beliefs, looks, etc., don't match what they want, you get rejected. People who are too far outside the norms in any context are pretty unlikely to get anyone. I live in the South, and I read books, don't like clubs, bars, drinking (much), or cats or dogs. That pretty much kills my chances with almost everyone. It's not so bad, though. In the immortal words of George Carlin, "People are fucking boring."

    Gay culture here has two sides: airhead and Southern, with an option for prep (aka closeted Republican faggot). The guys here are either into stereotypical gay stuff to the exclusion of anything else, or they are gay but still absorbed Southern culture somehow. There are a few people I've met who have one or two common interests with me here, but I usually find that they aren't really explored to the same depth. Then there's looks and everything else.

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    Duality is shit. It's like that one alleged Easter egg in a video game you heard of on an online message board that you waste your life trying to glitch the game in order to see. Kudos to you if you managed to find socionic duality in love, but to those who haven't, I can't stress enough, throw that dream to the wind, now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Shut the fuck up, dumbass.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    Duality is shit. It's like that one alleged Easter egg in a video game you heard of on an online message board that you waste your life trying to glitch the game in order to see. Kudos to you if you managed to find socionic duality in love, but to those who haven't, I can't stress enough, throw that dream to the wind, now.

    Tbh I don't even know if this shit is real sometimes. I've met and fucked at least one person of every type, and they all sucked. Except that some were good at sex. And the main reasons they were good at sex were two: big cock, or good at getting me drunk or high. I've had a few good experiences along the way, but there's always other shit. I've crossed too many borders to fit anywhere. My best hope is finding someone else who's an abject freak or absolute social outcast, or so I think. It would be nice if I could love for money, but I don't think I can lol.

    My ideal situation at this point doesn't really include romance anyway. It's a shitload of money so I don't have to worry about work or being dependent on someone else. Then I could just sit in the house all day or go places by myself doing whatever the hell I want. I never said my ideal situation was realistic, lol. Deus ex machina, where art thou?
    Last edited by Aramas; 11-27-2018 at 08:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noaydi View Post
    I would very like this thread being discussed, despite my bad expression in the subject. Forget about the neurosis part, you can share even stuff that are a little remote to the subject but still usefull
    For what it's worth, your English is very good.

    Perhaps deltas are just more realistic about viewing love than Fe quadras who might try to focus on the positive more and take the negatives in stride or just try to cope with them.
    ~* astralsilky

    4w5 that morphed into a 3w2 sx/sp
    Cancer Sun, Cancer/Leo Moon, Libra Ascendant, Pluto conjunct Ascendant, Sun conjunct Moon, Saturn conjunct Mercury conjunct MC in 10th, Jupiter handle of bucket pattern squares Nodes, Uranus biquintile Jupiter, Neptune sextile Ascendant, Lilith trine Ascendant, Venus in Gemini/Cancer in 9th house conjunct MC, Venus trine Uranus, Uranus conjunct Spica, Ascendant conjunct SuperGalactic Center, Sun inconjunct Galactic Center.

    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

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    Duality (or any other ITR) should be treated separately from love; duality doesn't attract or assure love but it can help to facilitate relationships in conducive environments. Love is more of an animalistic bond that can be rather transient for some. I've met many who've never been in love but have formed solid, caring, long-term relationships with their partners so would these be considered something other than good, practical living arrangements? The statements made in the citation seem rather naive and sweeping; all types can be sinners, saints, nondescript, attracted to power, guileless, etc. - these depend on a lot more factors than just type.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Love is real.

    Settle for nothing less.

    Dont listen to the cynics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noaydi View Post
    If you dig a little, love is bullshit, that's the simple conclusion.
    Love is the identification with the other one by a compassion and empathy. When you perceive yourself and other one as equal parts of one whole. The more of that - the more love exists. It's not absolute feeling or state. It's easier to have with the ones you like more as persons. Also it's easier to appear with lesser egocentric attitude in you.
    Love needs efforts - to accept the needs, interests, feelings and thoughts of other one as own ones. You like share one mind on two and behave accordingly. You trust own needs and wishes to other one and accept his ones. You care about each other like about themselves and tend everything to do together. The minds are joined.

    In general sense, the "love" is a collectivistic thinking. In marriage pairs we allow it strongly. But many pairs have not much of this feeling. They have a sympathy (liking), a passion, a respect - what helps to love, but no obligately the strong love feeling.

    Good IR like duality relate to soul friendship abbility. They help to have love feeling and can be one of important factors for this.

    There is no perfect feelings and relations. Love is one of psyche states in relations between people. What makes people as a union, makes them being together and reflects this state. It's pleasant emotional state and helps to have harmony in relations.

    With the above understanding of the term "love" it's real. When you assign more to this - that may be other completely or partly.
    For example, some may absolutize this feeling - like to think it's always forever - while it's possibly to be forever but this needs the efforts and is not obligate [it's harder to have love feeling when you feel badly in relations - the feeling may go away or to return]. Or to think - it's always mutual - while having this state it's common to think such but the real feelings of other human you do not know and they mb other or in lesser degree sometimes. Or to think - people having love feelings never hurt each other or like anything in each other - while they accept each other much better, but not absolutely.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    I have been advised to ignore Socionics when it comes to romantic relationships and it's done well so far. I'm still trying to learn what duality feels like first hand though.
    What is a utopia? A dream unrealized, but not unrealizable. -- Joseph Dejacque
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Tbh I don't even know if this shit is real sometimes. I've met and fucked at least one person of every type, and they all sucked. Except that some were good at sex. And the main reasons they were good at sex were two: big cock, or good at getting me drunk or high. I've had a few good experiences along the way, but there's always other shit. I've crossed too many borders to fit anywhere. My best hope is finding someone else who's an abject freak or absolute social outcast, or so I think. It would be nice if I could love for money, but I don't think I can lol.

    My ideal situation at this point doesn't really include romance anyway. It's a shitload of money so I don't have to worry about work or being dependent on someone else. Then I could just sit in the house all day or go places by myself doing whatever the hell I want. I never said my ideal situation was realistic, lol. Deus ex machina, where art thou?
    That's more a symptom of the times my dude. This is peak r-selection, and if you've fucked every other sociotype I may have to accuse ye of being a rabbit. Fuck, eat, fuck, eat. That's the rabbit way. That is to say, ye be r-selected. Nothing wrong or bad about that, but it does mean you're probably on the wrong end of this imminent paradigm shift. The shift is towards K, and boy do I feel sorry for the r's. Darwin... lacks even the slightest capacity for mercy to my regret.

    Learn to adapt to a more K-selected world. Find a God is my first piece of advice to any and all r-selected individuals. NO! Social Justice is the absolute LAST God you wanna get caught following. I mean a "real" one. Don't care which one, it just gotta be real on some level. Don't like Jesus? Fine. Like Thor? Ishtar? Amaterasu? Believe in Something folks. I ain't asking much of ya I'd hope!

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    If you fundamentally don’t believe in love existing, not even the most hopeful theories will help you.

    Even if something is just an ideal, who says you can’t manifest it if you try hard and smart enough? I’d rather spend my entire life chasing a beautiful dream than spending it standing still in a bleak darkness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taknamay View Post
    I have been advised to ignore Socionics when it comes to romantic relationships and it's done well so far. I'm still trying to learn what duality feels like first hand though.
    Don't ignore it, use it to your advantage to understand the limitations of the relationship and how to deal with them.

    What you shouldn't do is dismiss someone solely on the basis of a negative intertype relation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    That's more a symptom of the times my dude. This is peak r-selection, and if you've fucked every other sociotype I may have to accuse ye of being a rabbit. Fuck, eat, fuck, eat. That's the rabbit way. That is to say, ye be r-selected. Nothing wrong or bad about that, but it does mean you're probably on the wrong end of this imminent paradigm shift. The shift is towards K, and boy do I feel sorry for the r's. Darwin... lacks even the slightest capacity for mercy to my regret.

    Learn to adapt to a more K-selected world. Find a God is my first piece of advice to any and all r-selected individuals. NO! Social Justice is the absolute LAST God you wanna get caught following. I mean a "real" one. Don't care which one, it just gotta be real on some level. Don't like Jesus? Fine. Like Thor? Ishtar? Amaterasu? Believe in Something folks. I ain't asking much of ya I'd hope!
    Wtf are you even talking about

    I'm gay and not the least interested in reproducing haha. You're not asking me anything because I owe you nothing.

    In ecology, r/K selection theory relates to the selection of combinations of traits in an organism that trade off between quantity and quality of offspring. The focus upon either increased quantity of offspring at the expense of individual parental investment of r-strategists, or reduced quantity of offspring with a corresponding increased parental investment of K-strategists, varies widely, seemingly to promote success in particular environments.

    End's post in reduced form: "You need Jeeeszus! Us monogamists and conservatives are gonna win! It's our time now!"

    You're forgetting about the Greek god, Pan. You'd probably have to exclude him from your list of gods, because if anything, he represents the antithesis of what you desire and are.

    Also, nice job overinterpreting a biological theory to support your politics/religious views. Also wrongly. It's about the number of offspring, not sexual partners. You're not even using r/k selection theory but differential k theory at best.
    Last edited by Aramas; 12-20-2018 at 09:56 AM.

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    Love exist obviously it's just difficult as fuck to acquire in the manner that we hope. Much of the desire for love comes from the fact that it is scarce.

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    Love entails sacrifice. No wonder it is scarce.
    "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; genius hits a target no one else can see." - Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karatos View Post
    Love entails sacrifice. No wonder it is scarce.
    Absolutely.

    In a hundred different ways and situations.

    Giving up love for something destined is also a sacrifice.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    If you fundamentally don’t believe in love existing, not even the most hopeful theories will help you.

    Even if something is just an ideal, who says you can’t manifest it if you try hard and smart enough? I’d rather spend my entire life chasing a beautiful dream than spending it standing still in a bleak darkness.
    and we are conflictors?

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    @Aramas, I got but one one golden question for you. Could you, say, tell me about your father? I mean level with me here, don't hold back an ounce. Tell me all about him in all his infamy. My theories need data to be tested against but in this area, well, I'm betting money you'll just be giving me data that backs up what I already know to be true...

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    Quote Originally Posted by waddup View Post
    and we are conflictors?
    *stuffs your head back in your turtle shell*

    Fine you might be EIE. I’ll need to think about it.Don’t count on it though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    @Aramas, I got but one one golden question for you. Could you, say, tell me about your father? I mean level with me here, don't hold back an ounce. Tell me all about him in all his infamy. My theories need data to be tested against but in this area, well, I'm betting money you'll just be giving me data that backs up what I already know to be true...
    How about I tell you to stop asking questions you have no right to have answered? That works better for me.

    You're not doing anything original by supposing parental influence has some effect on a kid. Shits been done to death.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    *stuffs your head back in your turtle shell*

    Fine you might be EIE. I’ll need to think about it.Don’t count on it though.
    It doesn't matter really. People could share values about life and still not jive. I'm not super big friends with anybody here so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by waddup View Post
    It doesn't matter really. People could share values about life and still not jive. I'm not super big friends with anybody here so.
    Why spend so much time and so many years here then

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Why spend so much time and so many years here then
    Habit. Interest. Entertainment. A thread of connection. Journalling. Brain drain. Boredom. Distraction from vice. Continuity. Stimulation. Spiritual challenges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    Love exist obviously it's just difficult as fuck to acquire in the manner that we hope. Much of the desire for love comes from the fact that it is scarce.
    The real problem is that few people in our current day and age are even aware of the difference between "Lust" and "Love". They mistakenly think that Love=Boundless Lust. Fact is, the "Lust" phase of a relationship can barely last a year at best from a biological standpoint.

    Love is what remains after the lust fades. Our modern society, maliciously and by design I'd say, tells everyone that Lust=Love and the instant that lust dries up it's time to find another partner. The old world knew better IMO. Teach them that the best part of the relationship occurs after the lust fades. Makes for a much more stable society.

  28. #28
    To Stand As The Oak Luminous Lynx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    The real problem is that few people in our current day and age are even aware of the difference between "Lust" and "Love". They mistakenly think that Love=Boundless Lust. Fact is, the "Lust" phase of a relationship can barely last a year at best from a biological standpoint.

    Love is what remains after the lust fades. Our modern society, maliciously and by design I'd say, tells everyone that Lust=Love and the instant that lust dries up it's time to find another partner. The old world knew better IMO. Teach them that the best part of the relationship occurs after the lust fades. Makes for a much more stable society.

    Excellent stuff, mate. I'll contribute by saying I know from personal history I can make sexual interest last many years, but I agree with Your sensibilities nonetheless. That which is lasting is greater than that which is thrilling (I have every confidence I won't need to choose between them).
    "We live in an age in which there is no heroic death."

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  29. #29
    End's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luminous Lynx View Post
    Excellent stuff, mate. I'll contribute by saying I know from personal history I can make sexual interest last many years, but I agree with Your sensibilities nonetheless. That which is lasting is greater than that which is thrilling (I have every confidence I won't need to choose between them).
    Ah but that's the thing that's really tragic about the modern age. Even if the "thrill" is gone, it's that lasting part that's oh so much better. A quick "Wham Bam Thank Ya Mam" is thrilling, but it isn't very satisfying. Kissing your lover in the way only you know how, as you touch the places only the two of you know of, I could go on and on.

    That the pop culture pushes the narrative of the things I mentioned above as being impossible at best and evil at worst is, well, a gosh darn shame! And that's me being nice. If I discard that, well, a certain madame will begin to manifest here in the West. Her name starts with a G. And if these people don't stop it, well, at least it's a fast and very final way of ending a dispute. It is, after all, a "razor" of a national scale. I wish not for its return to use, but I also see it inevitably becoming a thing we all get to see used on the regular if things do not stop going the way they are...

  30. #30
    f.k.a Oprah sbbds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waddup View Post
    It doesn't matter really. People could share values about life and still not jive. I'm not super big friends with anybody here so.
    Quote Originally Posted by waddup View Post
    Habit. Interest. Entertainment. A thread of connection. Journalling. Brain drain. Boredom. Distraction from vice. Continuity. Stimulation. Spiritual challenges.
    I wouldn’t consider most of the people here “friends”, but still I share and discuss a lot of deeper thoughts and discuss deep sensitive and fundamental-to-life topics with this community, which I only have the chance to sparsely do with even my closest IRL connections incl. friendships and romantic relationships.

    Maybe it’s because I’m Ni-seeking, but to me if that isn’t indicative of vulnerability and some level of “love”, “friendship” or “closeness”, idk what is.

    No matter what the truth is, having the opportunity to discuss these topics is important to me, which includes having the platform to do it on and people to do it with me at my same level.

  31. #31
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    It's a hoax. Turned out my dual is the least person I don't get along with

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    Kill4Me's Avatar
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    A dual has the best chance to pull me into a relationship and I can get away with a lot more Se with an IEI than I can with any other type. One night stands/flings don't work with duals...I always want to see more of them. I'll look past many things with a dual that I would not look past with somebody else. So overall, it probably increases the chance of progressing to the love stage.

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