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Thread: ILI and ambition

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    Default ILI and ambition

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    Last edited by FarDraft; 11-26-2018 at 02:51 AM.
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    Can you say more about what your ambition actually entails in terms of what you do on a daily/weekly basis?

    I don't think that would help me answer your question because i'm not good at these questions lol but i'm curious and I think it would provide clarity to anybody else interested in answering.

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    ILIs can be as ambitious as any other type. They´ll just go at it in their usual lazy way, wearing pijamas at home while calling potential business partners, or wearing old worn clothes with holes during some sports competition. (of course SEEs or ESIs can help with the presentation)
    The person I know who´s like this is also a ILI-Te. He´s different from me because he cares less about image in a way, he´s kind of nicer with people but has some big social faux pas that he completely does not understand.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    I don't know any SEEs or ESIs, so I'm lost in that area, lol.
    just head to a strip club and you'll be surrounded by them :-) great opportunity to make some new friends!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hag View Post
    just head to a strip club and you'll be surrounded by them :-) great opportunity to make some new friends!
    Damn, maybe I should try going back to some of the places I visited when I was in my twenties. I didn't know about Socionics then. I just liked being around naked women. Still do, to tell the truth, although I've changed my venues.

    As for making friends, there was one girl at one club who wanted my opinion on her clothes, told me her car is paid for, she makes great money and she's a great cook. I was just there for the entertainment, but your point about making friends is well taken. She def believed in regular exercise.

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    They prefer intelligent work with good money. This may motivate some of them for good career.
    It's mostly about men.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    It makes me wonder what kind of dynamic monster duo they become when they get dualized.

    Just basing this how my SEE-N sister respects external integrity of the world aka Ne. Although I think that ILI would supply the needed Ne. Just like the main character in the Daria does.

    I suspect some kind of environment where they can push through obstacles makes their dualization optimal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
    I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    It makes me wonder what kind of dynamic monster duo they become when they get dualized.

    Just basing this how my SEE-N sister respects external integrity of the world aka Ne. Although I think that ILI would supply the needed Ne. Just like the main character in the Daria does.

    I suspect some kind of environment where they can push through obstacles makes their dualization optimal.
    It is interesting you mention that ILI would supply the needed Ne. Personally, I find myself doing that when needed, as well as supplying ideas and random humor, but it is very limited in scope and duration. It can be exhausting and even annoying. Mostly, I think I use it to show that I have the ability like others because a lack of it demonstrates close mindedness, imo. It is like I've been pushed to demonstrate. People often mistaken any certitude on a topic as a lack of open mindedness, when I have already thought about it and decided other ideas or points of view are very likely to be incorrect because they are flawed. I think it difficult for Ne types to dismiss various points of view that they find as equally possible, thereby, making them skeptical of people who are confident that their worldview is correct.

    The difference in approach is apparent, even though the end goal is the same, for ILE and ILI. Both want to know what is "really real", except the ILE is more willing to explore various possibilities to narrow everything down to one objective reality. ILI wants to know objective reality as well, but is just much less motivated to explore when it comes to figuring it out. ILIs want the shortest possible route to the answer and will avoid anything that intuitively seems like a dead end. ILE explores many more paths, ILI very few.

    ILIs are not lazy or unambitious, but they may be perceived that way when misunderstood.

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    I do want to add that ILI and LII are basically the same when it comes to Ne, with the exception is that LII are more literal and rigid about things what I find to be a hard to describe manner. The focus on logical correctness at all times seems pointless, as you have to have some idea to be supported by logic. It is a means to an end, not an end in itself. People who constantly point out logical inconsistency and errors are just annoying. They can't just let it go. Grammar and logic nazis. They make me have to focus more in these areas...the bastards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebula View Post
    I do want to add that ILI and LII are basically the same when it comes to Ne, with the exception is that LII are more literal and rigid about things what I find to be a hard to describe manner. The focus on logical correctness at all times seems pointless, as you have to have some idea to be supported by logic. It is a means to an end, not an end in itself. People who constantly point out logical inconsistency and errors are just annoying. They can't just let it go. Grammar and logic nazis. They make me have to focus more in these areas...the bastards.
    Wouldn't LIIs be more open to using Ne though since it's in their ego block? Sure, they may be grammar or logic nazis, but with valued Ne and alpha values, the childish Ne archetype should be present.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebula View Post
    It is interesting you mention that ILI would supply the needed Ne. Personally, I find myself doing that when needed, as well as supplying ideas and random humor, but it is very limited in scope and duration. It can be exhausting and even annoying. Mostly, I think I use it to show that I have the ability like others because a lack of it demonstrates close mindedness, imo. It is like I've been pushed to demonstrate. People often mistaken any certitude on a topic as a lack of open mindedness, when I have already thought about it and decided other ideas or points of view are very likely to be incorrect because they are flawed. I think it difficult for Ne types to dismiss various points of view that they find as equally possible, thereby, making them skeptical of people who are confident that their worldview is correct.

    The difference in approach is apparent, even though the end goal is the same, for ILE and ILI. Both want to know what is "really real", except the ILE is more willing to explore various possibilities to narrow everything down to one objective reality. ILI wants to know objective reality as well, but is just much less motivated to explore when it comes to figuring it out. ILIs want the shortest possible route to the answer and will avoid anything that intuitively seems like a dead end. ILE explores many more paths, ILI very few.

    ILIs are not lazy or unambitious, but they may be perceived that way when misunderstood.
    I find that people view my single-mindedness as ambitious, actually. As if not being deviated by alternative possibilities somehow allows me to cut away the unnecessary ideas to hone in on the truth. Also, since there's a focus on fewer ideas, more progress can be made in a shorter amount of time, which looks like I'm not being lazy.
    ----- FarDraft, 2019

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Wouldn't LIIs be more open to using Ne though since it's in their ego block? Sure, they may be grammar or logic nazis, but with valued Ne and alpha values, the childish Ne archetype should be present.
    I'm a typology heretic. I don't buy into rigid functional use. I look at the dominant function as being representative of a person's overall tendencies. The Ti of LIIs make them more rigid, even if they still prefer intuition. They are a dominant judging type. Their intuition isn't on all the time like their Ti, which isn't that much different that ILI using Ne when they find use for it. LIIs also use Ni occasionally, making the types very similar. Instead of looking at TiNe and NiTe, look at INTj vs INTp (judging vs perceiving INTs) and the type of person the theoretical functions are suppose to describe. The cognitive functions are themselves merely decriptions, not causes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebula View Post
    I'm a typology heretic. I don't buy into rigid functional use. I look at the dominant function as being representative of a person's overall tendencies. The Ti of LIIs make them more rigid, even if they still prefer intuition. They are a dominant judging type. Their intuition isn't on all the time like their Ti, which isn't that much different that ILI using Ne when they find use for it. LIIs also use Ni occasionally, making the types very similar. Instead of looking at TiNe and NiTe, look at INTj vs INTp (judging vs perceiving INTs) and the type of person the theoretical functions are suppose to describe. The cognitive functions are themselves merely decriptions, not causes.
    I don't care about grammar mistakes or any mistakes that has insignificant importance. I don't point out other people's logical inconsistency all the time, I also think that is annoying. Ti base is more about building logically consistent model for yourself or analyzing things in order to understand, rather than focusing or criticizing other people's logic. ILI is called the critic and LII is called the analyst for a reason, that's why I am surprised by your post.

    Perceiving does not directly correlate with openness, if that was the case, then all irrationals would be more open than all rationals, do you think that is the case? if so, could you explain it further, if not, then we have to look at the information elements, in order to choose a singular route, one has to ignore other routes, so that person has to be close to considering other routes.
    Last edited by myresearch; 12-15-2018 at 01:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by myresearch View Post
    I don't care about grammar mistakes or any mistakes that has insignificant importance. I don't point out other people's logical inconsistency all the time, I also think that is annoying. Ti base is more about building logically consistent model for yourself or analyzing things in order to understand, rather than focusing or criticizing other people's logic. ILI is called the critic and LII is called the analyst for a reason, that's why I am surprised by your post.

    Perceiving does not directly correlate with openness, if that was the case, then all irrationals would be more open than all rationals, do you think that is the case? if so, could you explain it further, if not, then we have to look at the information elements, in order to choose a singular route, one has to ignore other routes, so a person have to be close to considering other routes.

    Openness to Experience strongly correlates with MBTI Intuition. It makes sense that intuitive dominants would be the most open, which are your perceivers. It is more complicated than this because Openness to experience isn't just about being open to the arts and ideas.

    I don't think of cognitive functions the same way. They are more descriptive than prescriptive. Someone is Ni because they are INxp. Perceiving types should be more easy going and less reactive. Ijs are reactive types and less open. INxjs are more open than ISxjs.

    The archetypes are a bit mixed. For example, ILI has been called anything from the critic to artist to scientist to mystic.Furthermore, one can be critical of ideas that seem flawed and yet still polite and open to experience. It just means the person may be low on Agreeability, an independent dimension.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Wouldn't LIIs be more open to using Ne though since it's in their ego block? Sure, they may be grammar or logic nazis, but with valued Ne and alpha values, the childish Ne archetype should be present.
    & @Nebula

    The Nazism you describe is Ni Te not LII.

    This is why true ILls are often happy as auditors, accountants, CFOs, computer programmers, general paper pushers and legal document scrutinizers, professionally. It goes beyond just spelling words correctly and the like.

    ILIs are likely to inadvertently ignore or yield Ne to others, such as new goals or questions of conceptual image or beliefs. Ne is their so-called Ignoring 7th function.
    Last edited by vesstheastralsilky; 12-14-2018 at 03:54 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hag View Post
    just head to a strip club and you'll be surrounded by them :-) great opportunity to make some new friends!
    Gamma SFs & sex?

    I'd more expect to find them on luxury liners, haute shopping for favorite brands and exploring luxury car dealerships - Se values material status much more than sensation-seeking sensuality which is Si. Some ESIs with demonstrative Si can be a fake tease in this regard - the closest you might get are the ones who get fake boob jobs and plastic surgery wear tons of makeup when in the mood yet mostly keep to themselves after their rare Se quickie. These types with creative Se - LSI and ESI - make any rare extenuating sex for more than 15 minutes seem like an ordeal. Not that I would know (ahem cough*cough). You're far more likely to find SEEs and ESIs waitressing than making a lifestyle at strip clubs.
    Last edited by vesstheastralsilky; 12-14-2018 at 03:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    Gamma SFs & sex?

    I'd more expect to find them on luxury liners, haute shopping for favorite brands and exploring luxury car dealerships - Se values material status much more than sensation-seeking sensuality which is Si. Some ESIs with demonstrative Si can be a fake tease in this regard - the closest you might get are the ones who get fake boob jobs and plastic surgery wear tons of makeup when in the mood yet mostly keep to themselves after their rare Se quickie. These types with creative Se - LSI and ESI - make any rare extenuating sex for more than 15 minutes seem like an ordeal. Not that I would know (ahem cough*cough). You're far more likely to find SEEs and ESIs waitressing than making a lifestyle at strip clubs.
    Re: Bolded part. The duration of sex with the LSI's I've dated has centered around one hour. It has been as short as two minutes (mostly to show affection) or as long as four hours, but I'd say the average is around one hour. And they didn't seem to view it as an ordeal. Quite the contrary, they were better at and more eager for extended sex than I was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Re: Bolded part. The duration of sex with the LSI's I've dated has centered around one hour. It has been as short as two minutes (mostly to show affection) or as long as four hours, but I'd say the average is around one hour. And they didn't seem to view it as an ordeal. Quite the contrary, they were better at and more eager for extended sex than I was.
    My exfiance was LSI, had another 5 year relationship with an ESI and a fling with another LSI. Sex was rare and not priority for any of them and this was back when I was in shape and was young and attractive. Such wasted years. I should've known my type and exited sooner. So much wasted.
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    Each essence is a separate glass,
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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    & @Nebula

    The Nazism you describe is Ni Te not LII.

    This is why true ILls are often happy as auditors, accountants, CFOs, computer programmers, general paper pushers and legal document scrutinizers, professionally. It goes beyond just spelling words correctly and the like.

    ILIs are likely to inadvertently ignore or yield Ne to others, such as new goals or questions of conceptual image or beliefs. Ne is their so-called Ignoring 7th function.
    Honestly, in my experience, the true grammar/logic nazis tend to be ENTp's since ILI or LII are too focused on their internal world to care about minor deficiencies in what other people say. I've heard that an ILE's Te manifests in "showing off", if you will. Think Sheldon Cooper. ISTjs are also often like this - Nazi-like, that is. Perhaps it's a causal-deterministic thing? That doesn't seem like a bad hypothesis, actually.

    That being said, NiTe being really technical and pedantic does make sense, given that Ni can be detail-oriented and Te cares about competence. People have observed and often commented on my technical nature in the past, especially when it came to Taekwondo. However, I don't think it's mutually exclusive to NiTe. Ti caring about the logical correctness of things would be a perfectly valid perpetrator of Nazi-like behaviour. But it's more likely that Ti users refrain from speaking so as to maintain social harmony. Similar to the different between INTJs and INTPs in MBTI. INTJs are more outspoken, whereas INTPs are less so.
    Last edited by FarDraft; 12-15-2018 at 02:34 AM. Reason: clarity
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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    & @Nebula

    The Nazism you describe is Ni Te not LII.

    This is why true ILls are often happy as auditors, accountants, CFOs, computer programmers, general paper pushers and legal document scrutinizers, professionally. It goes beyond just spelling words correctly and the like.

    ILIs are likely to inadvertently ignore or yield Ne to others, such as new goals or questions of conceptual image or beliefs. Ne is their so-called Ignoring 7th function.
    I should also say that I would probably never take a career as an accountant, paper-pusher, or anything of that sort. It's just too boring. I'm detail-oriented but doing something that precise on a regular basis wouldn't satisfy my creative desires. A programmer, on the other hand, combines the detail-orientation and efficiency with creative problem solving and pattern recognition. Things I enjoy. I assume most Ni bases, and intuitive types in general, would agree.

    However, the point you bring up is interesting. I've always considered the high level description of the ILI to be a mix of each IxTx type in MBTI; however, I haven't seen someone so explicitly state that an ILI would take jobs that are more commonly associated with sensing types in MBTI. It's something I've always expected but never confirmed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    I should also say that I would probably never take a career as an accountant, paper-pusher, or anything of that sort. It's just too boring. I'm detail-oriented but doing something that precise on a regular basis wouldn't satisfy my creative desires. A programmer, on the other hand, combines the detail-orientation and efficiency with creative problem solving and pattern recognition. Things I enjoy. I assume most Ni bases, and intuitive types in general, would agree.
    Creative? Nahhh you sound Alpha to me. I hope you haven't been relying on Gulenko data to define your type.
    ~* astralsilky

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    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    Creative? Nahhh you sound Alpha to me. I hope you haven't been relying on Gulenko data to define your type.
    I haven't. I hope you haven't been relying on overly generalized quadra descriptions to define my type.
    ----- FarDraft, 2019

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Honestly, in my experience, the true grammar/logic nazis tend to be ENTp's since ILI or LII are too focused on their internal world to care about minor deficiencies in what other people say. I've heard that an ILE's Te manifests in "showing off", if you will. Think Sheldon Cooper. ISTjs are also often like this. Perhaps it's a causal-deterministic thing? That doesn't seem like a bad hypothesis, actually.

    That being said, NiTe being really technical and pedantic does make sense, given that Ni can be detail-oriented and Te cares about competence. People have observed and often commented on my technical nature in the past, especially when it came to Taekwondo. However, I don't think it's mutually exclusive to NiTe. Ti caring about the logical correctness of things would be a perfectly valid perpetrator of Nazi-like behaviour. But it's more likely that Ti users refrain from speaking so as to maintain social harmony. Similar to the different between INTJs and INTPs in MBTI. INTJs are more outspoken, whereas INTPs are less so.
    I agree that the Ni concept would theoretically make someone less inclined to be vocal in such a way as to obtain the title grammar nazis. I think even The Critic is a bit much. I could see artist, scientist, mystic, skeptic, etc, but Critic is not quite right. It makes very little sense. Ni dominants are communicatively distant. Maybe the ones that are more extroverted and less agreeable would? I'm not sure. Their melancholic nature is more of a self imposed standard as opposed to a standard to impose onto others. I would think ExTj would be most inclined.

    I'm very tech savy and science oriented. I am very stubborn with what i know and I know it well, but I'm not imposing or intimidating with it. It is just too much effort to put into such things. Of course, there are contradictions in socionics theory, so I can see where it is confusing for everyone. I do think that ILI(INTp) is more similar to INTP in MBTI just based on the descriptions and temperament. LII is more similar to INTJ. It is the difference between Ips and Ijs. Forget the functional stack, just look at overall picture. ILIs are also light researchers, hardly the type that would make a great critic. You have to have people that aren't as lazy as ILI in acquiring knowledge to make at least a good critic.

    I know this is the reverse of what people are used to with the theory, but I think it makes more sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebula View Post
    I agree that the Ni concept would theoretically make someone less inclined to be vocal in such a way as to obtain the title grammar nazis. I think even The Critic is a bit much. I could see artist, scientist, mystic, skeptic, etc, but Critic is not quite right. It makes very little sense. Ni dominants are communicatively distant. Maybe the ones that are more extroverted and less agreeable would? I'm not sure. Their melancholic nature is more of a self imposed standard as opposed to a standard to impose onto others. I would think ExTj would be most inclined.

    I'm very tech savy and science oriented. I am very stubborn with what i know and I know it well, but I'm not imposing or intimidating with it. It is just too much effort to put into such things. Of course, there are contradictions in socionics theory, so I can see where it is confusing for everyone. I do think that ILI(INTp) is more similar to INTP in MBTI just based on the descriptions and temperament. LII is more similar to INTJ. It is the difference between Ips and Ijs. Forget the functional stack, just look at overall picture. ILIs are also light researchers, hardly the type that would make a great critic. You have to have people that aren't as lazy as ILI in acquiring knowledge to make at least a good critic.

    I know this is the reverse of what people are used to with the theory, but I think it makes more sense.
    The ILI Critics exist. I've worked with them. They smile as they shoot down new ideas too. They tend to rely on functional resources they have than favor innovation. The imaginative reputation is undeserved and inaccurate.
    ~* astralsilky

    4w5 that morphed into a 3w2 sx/sp
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    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebula View Post
    I agree that the Ni concept would theoretically make someone less inclined to be vocal in such a way as to obtain the title grammar nazis. I think even The Critic is a bit much. I could see artist, scientist, mystic, skeptic, etc, but Critic is not quite right. It makes very little sense. Ni dominants are communicatively distant. Maybe the ones that are more extroverted and less agreeable would? I'm not sure. Their melancholic nature is more of a self imposed standard as opposed to a standard to impose onto others. I would think ExTj would be most inclined.

    I'm very tech savy and science oriented. I am very stubborn with what i know and I know it well, but I'm not imposing or intimidating with it. It is just too much effort to put into such things. Of course, there are contradictions in socionics theory, so I can see where it is confusing for everyone. I do think that ILI(INTp) is more similar to INTP in MBTI just based on the descriptions and temperament. LII is more similar to INTJ. It is the difference between Ips and Ijs. Forget the functional stack, just look at overall picture. ILIs are also light researchers, hardly the type that would make a great critic. You have to have people that aren't as lazy as ILI in acquiring knowledge to make at least a good critic.

    I know this is the reverse of what people are used to with the theory, but I think it makes more sense.
    This gets to the heart of what I think is the main problem with socionics: what is standard for determining type? If there are multiple standards (descriptions, temperament, IR, VR, IEs, etc.), then there will be various different connections between MBTI and socionics that are equally valid. But that's not a useful construct since it makes socionics relative, which is the exact opposite of what a good theory should be striving for.

    For example, if we look at high-level descriptions, then you're correct in saying that LII is closer to INTJ and ILI closer to INTP. However, quadra-wise that connection makes no sense since INTPs are way more likely to be alpha and INTJs gamma. Likewise when we're considering cognitive functions. The Ti definition in MBTI and and socionics are very similar. The main difference is that Ti users are supposed to be rule-abiders in socionics whereas that usually gets associated with Si and Te in MBTI. So, if would make the most sense for INTPs to type as INTj if we're going by the functions. Similarly with INTJs and INTp, though I'll admit that there are some more differences in the definition of Ni between MBTI and socionics.

    Personally, I think that the functions are the way to go since socionics is, at its core, a cognitive rather than behavioural theory. The IR patterns make more sense if we look at the system in this way.

    Also, you're correct in saying that Te base types are more inclined for research. However, I think that any Te-ego type would be set on obtaining as much knowledge as possible in a field of their choice, especially the Te-subtypes like myself. ILI-Te is called the expert for that very reason. But, being introverts, any direct connection to the outside world would be diminished.

    EDIT: MBTI functions are pretty damn inconsistent and incomprehensible. They don't actually tell you how people metabolize information but rather the overall gist of how one uses the function. For example, Ni doms have a "vision" that they are trying to fulfill and they use their auxiliary function as the means to achieve it. However, this only works with big projects. When I'm working on a homework problem, do I have a "vision of the solution" and then use Te to solve it linearly? Maybe something similar, but that particular phrasing is just silly.
    Last edited by FarDraft; 05-02-2019 at 05:41 AM.
    ----- FarDraft, 2019

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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    The ILI Critics exist. I've worked with them. They smile as they shoot down new ideas too. They tend to rely on functional resources they have than favor innovation. The imaginative reputation is undeserved and inaccurate.
    Then they're not intuitive types. Ni is, by definition, imaginative. If it weren't, then the basis of intuition would be broken. It's just that Ni users aren't as willing to engage in unlikely possibilities as Ne users. This is partially do to Je being in their ego block. Te also uses established methods when solving problems. But Ni sees the non-linear patterns to where Te methods can be applied. That is imagination.
    ----- FarDraft, 2019

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Then they're not intuitive types. Ni is, by definition, imaginative. If it weren't, then the basis of intuition would be broken. It's just that Ni users aren't as willing to engage in unlikely possibilities as Ne users. This is partially do to Je being in their ego block. Te also uses established methods when solving problems. But Ni sees the non-linear patterns to where Te methods can be applied. That is imagination.
    That definition is wrong. Ni is simple deductive introspective rationality, if you want the truth. Any type can potentially be imaginative including me. It is not a valid reference in socionics if one really cares about intertype relations and cognitive functional analysis per model A.

    Trust me. It took many years and experiments to figure this out. I always thought I was IN but intertype relations never worked until switching to Si dominant and tweaking a few definitions.
    ~* astralsilky

    4w5 that morphed into a 3w2 sx/sp
    Cancer Sun, Cancer/Leo Moon, Libra Ascendant, Pluto conjunct Ascendant, Sun conjunct Moon, Saturn conjunct Mercury conjunct MC in 10th, Jupiter handle of bucket pattern squares Nodes, Uranus biquintile Jupiter, Neptune sextile Ascendant, Lilith trine Ascendant, Venus in Gemini/Cancer in 9th house conjunct MC, Venus trine Uranus, Uranus conjunct Spica, Ascendant conjunct SuperGalactic Center, Sun inconjunct Galactic Center.

    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    That definition is wrong. Ni is simple deductive introspective rationality, if you want the truth. Any type can potentially be imaginative including me. It is not a valid reference in socionics if one really cares about intertype relations and cognitive functional analysis per model A.

    Trust me. It took many years and experiments to figure this out. I always thought I was IN but intertype relations never worked until switching to Si dominant and tweaking a few definitions.
    I'm not convinced. Your definition of Ni is as "deductive" and related to "rationality". How would this differ from Ti? Moreover, if you say that any type can be imaginative, then what's the point in saying that ILIs aren't imaginative? Lastly, how do you define introspection? If it is defined by the dictionary, then it is "the examination or observation of one's own mental and emotional processes". If this weren't a judging process, then you're clearly just observing your mental processes. If that's the case, then what would limit Ni from being imaginative? I'm not completely against the definition you've given, but I am against the idea that an intuitive type is not imaginative. It strays too far from a Jungian basis and redefines intuition as a whole, which is something you can't do without redefining Ne, which, I assume, you aren't doing.
    ----- FarDraft, 2019

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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    The ILI Critics exist. I've worked with them. They smile as they shoot down new ideas too. They tend to rely on functional resources they have than favor innovation. The imaginative reputation is undeserved and inaccurate.
    Maybe we have different ideas of what makes someone a critic. I'm very critical with the things I know well, but I don't shoot down ideas just because they are new. If they don't make sense, aren't efficient, or effective, then there is good reason to dismiss an idea. Just because it is an idea, doesn't make it on par with other alternative ideas. When people easily dismiss scientific facts or get them wrong, I can get a little more outspoken to correct to state facts, but you would expect that from people that are more knowledgeable and competent. My own boss is ESxx and he very quickly dismisses ideas because he isn't very open minded and doesn't like discussing ideas. He has to act in the here and the now and get things done. He is capable of seeing longer term, but doesn't act with prudence as often as he should. He can be very critical, but not a Critic.

    I'm not sure where the imagination reputation is undeserved. There are many INTp artists, musicians, authors, etc. The very definition of Ni is basically being bound to one's imagination and ruminations. In my opinion, it is the creative function that is given too much weight, especially since creative functions aren't "on" all of the time like the base. It skews archetypes. One Ni is the Critic and the other the Poet?

    I'm sure ILI's critics exist, but they exist in other types as well and aren't exclusive to just ILI. I know plenty of ISFps that are critical with their art, ISTps with their craft, ESTp as a boss, etc. There is nothing unique about being a critic per se, just as there are many types that can be the Artist. When I think Critic, I think of some professional food or movie critic, and perhaps those people fit the archetype. Maybe they are ILI, maybe they aren't, but it is what they are interested in and knowledgeable about. Logically, not all critics are ILI, and not all ILIs are critics.

    Other than professional critics, the more general term critic are usually just immature and insecure people who think they are always right. Not what one would expect from a Gamma in a "adult quadrant". But if the "critic" is competent and knowledgeable, then critic isn't really necessary. They are just good at what they do and have an intuition toward what works and what doesn't.

    I'm just pointing out the inconsistencies I observe
    Last edited by Nertle; 12-15-2018 at 11:48 AM.

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    I am LII socionics and mbti INTP. People have different ideas about mbti and socionics correlations, this one is about mbti INTX: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Socionics-type. I always scored higher in openness than 90-95% of other people and my conscientious percentile has been always extremely low. There are lots of factors that could affect person's openness scale and tendency to criticism. Agreeableness level can affect the appearance of individual. I know that I can be very critical sometimes. I can admire or like or appreciate an idea even it is logically inconsistent or inaccurate in my opinion, but it doesn't mean that I will agree and accept it.

    Generally, both ILI and LII can be like a critic at some moments. I agree that not all critics are ILI and not all ILIs are critic. However, as I said before LII is called the Analyst and ILI is called the Critic for a reason. The general function alignment of ILI is more prone to fit "the Critic" role. I have work experience with two ILIs and one XLI. I think one of them is extremely conscientious and disagreeable, he is very good at time management and planning, he can be visionary in some aspects. I think he is ILI-Te Normalizing type enneagram 6w5. He doesn't accept any new idea or new methods while we are working on a project. He accepts or sometimes appreciates new ideas or new methods, if he isn't working on a project. I think he wants everything to go according to his plan, that's why he automatically rejects anything if he didn't consider those before, so his plan shall remain on track. Maybe, I am wrong and he does this because of other reasons. Besides that, he always criticize people for everything, his criticisms sometimes don't even make sense. He is definitely the Critic. The other ILI is also conscientious and disagreeable, he sometimes can be critical but nothing extreme. He seems more introspective and I wouldn't describe him as the Critic. However, he is also resistant to accept new ideas during projects, but he considers them and accept them if they could be proven to be useful. XLI accepts new ideas and new methods during projects, but he could be SLI, I am not sure yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by myresearch View Post
    I am LII socionics and mbti INTP. People have different ideas about mbti and socionics correlations, this one is about mbti INTX: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Socionics-type. I always scored higher in openness than 90-95% of other people and my conscientious percentile has been always extremely low. There are lots of factors that could affect person's openness scale and tendency to criticism. Agreeableness level can affect the appearance of individual. I know that I can be very critical sometimes. I can admire or like or appreciate an idea even it is logically inconsistent or inaccurate in my opinion, but it doesn't mean that I will agree and accept it.

    Generally, both ILI and LII can be like a critic at some moments. I agree that not all critics are ILI and not all ILIs are critic. However, as I said before LII is called the Analyst and ILI is called the Critic for a reason. The general function alignment of ILI is more prone to fit "the Critic" role. I have work experience with two ILIs and one XLI. I think one of them is extremely conscientious and disagreeable, he is very good at time management and planning, he can be visionary in some aspects. I think he is ILI-Te Normalizing type enneagram 6w5. He doesn't accept any new idea or new methods while we are working on a project. He accepts or sometimes appreciates new ideas or new methods, if he isn't working on a project. I think he wants everything to go according to his plan, that's why he automatically rejects anything if he didn't consider those before, so his plan shall remain on track. Maybe, I am wrong and he does this because of other reasons. Besides that, he always criticize people for everything, his criticisms sometimes don't even make sense. He is definitely the Critic. The other ILI is also conscientious and disagreeable, he sometimes can be critical but nothing extreme. He seems more introspective and I wouldn't describe him as the Critic. However, he is also resistant to accept new ideas during projects, but he considers them and accept them if they could be proven to be useful. XLI accepts new ideas and new methods during projects, but he could be SLI, I am not sure yet.
    I've come across the link you pointed to before. It's really interesting to me how divergent different typing mechanisms truly are.

    Part of the reason I think that a lot of INTJs wouldn't identify with ILI in socionics is because of Te creative and Ne ignoring. In MBTI, INTJs are frequently heralded as wildly innovative and idealistic, so when they read that ILIs are generally more conservative and realistic, they immediately feel as though that describes a "senser archetype", which turns them off since most description-yielded INTJs seem to be intuitive-elitists in nature. However, when INTJs actually understand Te and don't conflate it with Si, they realize that pragmatism is the core of how INTJs make logical decisions, and they either reject that notion or re-evaluate themselves. Moreover, most people have very strong misunderstandings of how Ni works in MBTI. It's not just about vision and planning. It's also about patterns understood through experience. This is why INTJs have "gut feelings". In my experience, it's the INTPs who are excellent in calculating the next likely move using logic. INTJs usually just guess or connect the dots using their experience.

    The problem with these misunderstandings is that it gives the INTJs undeserved strengths and hides merited ones. An INTJ is usually pretty bad at brainstorming or coming up with novel ideas. What they are good at, however, is making non-linear connections between what they have seen somewhere and how it can be useful in the problem they're solving now. In short, they have strong associative memories, which leads to rapid synthesis and highly efficient solutions. This is also the reason why Ni is symbolic - it's highly personal. Contrast this with Ne, which is excellent at generating new possibilities in the outside world. It's associative in an analytic sense rather than in a synthetic one, meaning that while the memory of an Ne user won't be associative, their thoughts will be. It's a subtle but very useful distinction, in my opinion. That's why xNTPs often come up with ridiculous solutions that are more frequently denoted as creative.

    If this is understood, then the connection between INTJ and ILI is a natural one since what I've just described is dialectical-algorithmic thinking. And this is something that I discovered (obviously not in the same depth or rigour) prior to learning socionics, meaning that it should be relatively void of confirmation bias. In fact, some of my earliest posts on this forum (now deleted) were about where associative memories fit into the theory. To be honest, there are some in the MBTI community who would argue that INTPs have an associative memory as well, but I find those arguments inconsistent with the theory.

    Your point that your coworker just wants things to go via his plan is certainly a possibility. What's also a possibility is that he has a strong 5 wing, meaning that he very much values competence. Thus, he wouldn't like the premise of having not considered a working method or idea by himself, leading to his criticism/(in this case) defensiveness. Head types with a strong 3 fix can be like this. I would know this because I have a strong 3 fix and can be quite ego-oriented in that way, though I try not to be. I am also very high in openness (90-99th percentile) and conscientiousness (80-90) while low in agreableness (10 or so).

    I think the moral of the story is to not lose precision in how we define the big 5 aspects and to not lose sight of the fact that different aspects working in tandem can lead to contradictory behaviours.
    ----- FarDraft, 2019

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    I've come across the link you pointed to before. It's really interesting to me how divergent different typing mechanisms truly are.

    Part of the reason I think that a lot of INTJs wouldn't identify with ILI in socionics is because of Te creative and Ne ignoring. In MBTI, INTJs are frequently heralded as wildly innovative and idealistic, so when they read that ILIs are generally more conservative and realistic, they immediately feel as though that describes a "senser archetype", which turns them off since most description-yielded INTJs seem to be intuitive-elitists in nature. However, when INTJs actually understand Te and don't conflate it with Si, they realize that pragmatism is the core of how INTJs make logical decisions, and they either reject that notion or re-evaluate themselves. Moreover, most people have very strong misunderstandings of how Ni works in MBTI. It's not just about vision and planning. It's also about patterns understood through experience. This is why INTJs have "gut feelings". In my experience, it's the INTPs who are excellent in calculating the next likely move using logic. INTJs usually just guess or connect the dots using their experience.

    The problem with these misunderstandings is that it gives the INTJs undeserved strengths and hides merited ones. An INTJ is usually pretty bad at brainstorming or coming up with novel ideas. What they are good at, however, is making non-linear connections between what they have seen somewhere and how it can be useful in the problem they're solving now. In short, they have strong associative memories, which leads to rapid synthesis and highly efficient solutions. This is also the reason why Ni is symbolic - it's highly personal. Contrast this with Ne, which is excellent at generating new possibilities in the outside world. It's associative in an analytic sense rather than in a synthetic one, meaning that while the memory of an Ne user won't be associative, their thoughts will be. It's a subtle but very useful distinction, in my opinion. That's why xNTPs often come up with ridiculous solutions that are more frequently denoted as creative.

    If this is understood, then the connection between INTJ and ILI is a natural one since what I've just described is dialectical-algorithmic thinking. And this is something that I discovered (obviously not in the same depth or rigour) prior to learning socionics, meaning that it should be relatively void of confirmation bias. In fact, some of my earliest posts on this forum (now deleted) were about where associative memories fit into the theory. To be honest, there are some in the MBTI community who would argue that INTPs have an associative memory as well, but I find those arguments inconsistent with the theory.

    Your point that your coworker just wants things to go via his plan is certainly a possibility. What's also a possibility is that he has a strong 5 wing, meaning that he very much values competence. Thus, he wouldn't like the premise of having not considered a working method or idea by himself, leading to his criticism/(in this case) defensiveness. Head types with a strong 3 fix can be like this. I would know this because I have a strong 3 fix and can be quite ego-oriented in that way, though I try not to be. I am also very high in openness (90-99th percentile) and conscientiousness (80-90) while low in agreableness (10 or so).

    I think the moral of the story is to not lose precision in how we define the big 5 aspects and to not lose sight of the fact that different aspects working in tandem can lead to contradictory behaviours.
    Yes, my coworker has a strong 3 fix. I actually do this all the time: What they are good at, however, is making non-linear connections between what they have seen somewhere and how it can be useful in the problem they're solving now. I thought they were provided by my Ne, maybe it is related to both Ne and Ni. How do you differentiate associative thinking from associative memory? (I used google I am just curious about your differentiation) Do you find it easier to differentiate your Ni from your Ne than differentiating your Ti from your Te?


    this post claims that Ni corresponds to linear process intuition and Ne corresponds to nonlinear: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...stems-Thinking

    I think this article gives a good definition for Ne, you can check if you are interested: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...p/395-Ne-Blobs

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    Quote Originally Posted by myresearch View Post
    Yes, my coworker has a strong 3 fix. I actually do this all the time: What they are good at, however, is making non-linear connections between what they have seen somewhere and how it can be useful in the problem they're solving now. I thought they were provided by my Ne, maybe it is related to both Ne and Ni. How do you differentiate associative thinking from associative memory? (I used google I am just curious about your differentiation) Do you find it easier to differentiate your Ni from your Ne than differentiating your Ti from your Te?


    this post claims that Ni corresponds to linear process intuition and Ne corresponds to nonlinear: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...stems-Thinking

    I think this article gives a good definition for Ne, you can check if you are interested: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...p/395-Ne-Blobs
    I should mention that many of my thoughts have been influenced by Gulenko's work, at least now. You can watch this conversation between Gulenko and Ben Vaserlan for more information. https://youtu.be/9ttGcX59jLc In this conversation, they make the note of differentiating between static and dynamic behaviour. Whereas the LII is static, meaning that they remember things at a particular moment in time, perhaps in more clarity, the ILI remembers many things at different times, leading to an associative memory.

    I would generally agree with the link you provided in that Ne is inter-system and Ni is intra-system. Connecting different systems together is what holographic-panoramic cognition does best, but it's not what I'm saying. This leads straight into the difference between associative memory and thinking. Basically, the difference is that associative memory is subjective and associative thinking is objective. If Einstein hadn't connected electromagnetism and relativity, realizing that the speed of light is constant, then someone else would have since there's only one correct theory of the universe. Granted, Einstein is thought to have been an ENTp, which is not holographic-panoramic but an Ne user nonetheless. However, an associative memory need not connect different systems together in an objective manner but rather what worked in a particular moment in time and how that situation relates to the present one. It sees patterns in one's own experience of the systems rather than patterns between the systems themselves, leading to a highly subjective quality to it. In this sense, we can say that Ni users are "in the system".

    I can give you an example. I recently took an exam in proof based linear algebra. One of the problems on it looked very similar to a problem I had seen before on a problem set. Thus, I tried using a method that worked for that problem, and it worked. After completing the exam, I was talking to other people on how it was similar to a problem set problem, yet no one understood what I was talking about. That's because I had conceived of a subjective pattern based on what had worked in my past experience rather than an objective one. Contrast this with another student who is an ENTp, I believe. In class, he frequently connects a piece of knowledge that we just learned to another piece of knowledge that we had not learned (if X is true, then doesn't that mean that Y should be true? When X and Y are of completely different domains). This is not a subjective connection based on what works but rather an objective connection based on what is logically consistent. Had he not seen this, then someone else inevitably would have since there is only one possible connection between the two domains in this circumstance.

    The overall consequence of this is that Ni users are frequently misunderstood since the connections they make are very personal whereas Ne users are frequently considered out of touch with reality since the connections they make are very abstract. The difference is, however, that Ne connections are verifiable by logic whereas Ni connections are (often) not - they are only verifiable by empirical means since the connection is not an objective fact but rather one that just works.

    I hope this makes my thoughts clearer.
    ----- FarDraft, 2019

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    What ambition?
    Figured it out. LIE. I'm extraverted, which is incredibly counter intuitive for a person who doesn't tend to go out much. Don't know how often I'll be on, but don't expect me to respond often. Only option I'm willing to debate is Si vs Ni right now. Mission accomplished.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Wouldn't LIIs be more open to using Ne though since it's in their ego block? Sure, they may be grammar or logic nazis, but with valued Ne and alpha values, the childish Ne archetype should be present.
    Not necessarily. The Creative function isn't always "on", like the dominant function. Compare extroverted intuition as a creative function vs ignoring; not that different really.


    Ne in different functional positions: (different ways to say the same thing?)

    " as a creative (2nd) function (LII and EII)


    The individual likes to apply his insight to specific situations, relating them to the bigger picture. He also enjoys discussing idealized circumstances or what could be rather than what is. Consequently, he usually has high standards, even unreasonably so, for those around him.
    He does not pursue ideas or new opportunities merely for their own sake, but for their application to specific questions and issues that he feels are important."

    The last sentence is like Ne ignoring


    " as an ignoring (7th) function (IEI and ILI)

    The individual understands "external" connections made between different areas of knowledge and experience, but prefers to focus instead on "hidden" connections that have a special significance and help understand the mysterious, hidden nature of things. He is able to readily grasp the intrinsic potential of a given thing or situation, but prefers to restrict indulging such assessments in the face of understanding the latent processes underpinning said things."

    Both LII and ILI will use Ne if it is of importance and of value to them. Either way, both of their use of Ne is "restrictive" when compared to Ne dominants.

    *substitute "hidden" connections with




    Wikisocion Composites:


    "2. Extraverted Intuition

    The LII often applies in an academic field such as mathematics, one which allows for abstract speculation to be realized in concrete conclusions. The LII does not much care for implementation or hands-on work, requiring some degree of independence from material demands in order to develop his own ideas. If the LII feels made to do a task he perceives as boring, he will try to find an original way to do it, if simply for the sake of developing an interesting idea. The LII can think on his feet, and is able to consider multiple viewpoints, although if he feels that he has fully analyzed an idea in the past, he may dismiss it out of hand with .
    The LII is always in tune with the "big picture", looking at things from the most general perspective possible. Given this frame of reference, he sees many ways ordinary life could be changed to meet his vision of how things should be. Thus the LII is often seen by other more practically-minded types as naively idealistic.
    The LII does not come up with ideas simply for their own sake, but tries to relate everything back to "the main point". He quickly becomes impatient or disinterested with discussion that is simply meant to generate ideas, instead of realizing them"

    hmmmmm.....again, creative has overlap with ignoring(bolded)


    "7. Extraverted Intuition

    Although ILIs may have the ability to brainstorm and develop lots of new and unconventional ideas, they prefer not to do so while interacting with others. ILIs often believe that a well-developed understanding of a situation is of greater importance than an understanding of several potential outcomes. To an ILI, it would be a silly and pointless exercise to simply list an infinite number of possible outcomes without assessing their relevance or the likelihood of their realization.* In contrast to leading types, ILIs are likely to be relatively immotile in the ideas that they consider. Whereas leading types may jump from idea to idea in succession, ILIs are likely to focus closely on a more limited batch of mental themes. ILIs are also often critical of new ideas which do not correspond to their overall understanding of a subject.*
    ILIs may be more apt to take a more practical approach to evaluating the outside world. They seek to expand upon aspects of their own internal realities, e.g. thinking of possible characteristics or plots for inner mental universes. Additionally, they prefer to use their imagination to solve real-world issues, like those regarding economics, politics, or the development of modern society.
    ILIs often have difficulty adapting themselves to new intellectual interests. They would rather limit the amount of new information that they have to learn. Consequently, they may be prone to recycling interests until the same interests become a drudgery, even so much that intellectual progress becomes stunted."

    *This really isn't all that different than LII. These descriptions are to contrast LII and ILI with Ne dominants. The difference in emphasis though is to direct these types into different quadras, because that is the objective of socionics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    I should mention that many of my thoughts have been influenced by Gulenko's work, at least now. You can watch this conversation between Gulenko and Ben Vaserlan for more information. https://youtu.be/9ttGcX59jLc In this conversation, they make the note of differentiating between static and dynamic behaviour. Whereas the LII is static, meaning that they remember things at a particular moment in time, perhaps in more clarity, the ILI remembers many things at different times, leading to an associative memory.

    I would generally agree with the link you provided in that Ne is inter-system and Ni is intra-system. Connecting different systems together is what holographic-panoramic cognition does best, but it's not what I'm saying. This leads straight into the difference between associative memory and thinking. Basically, the difference is that associative memory is subjective and associative thinking is objective. If Einstein hadn't connected electromagnetism and relativity, realizing that the speed of light is constant, then someone else would have since there's only one correct theory of the universe. Granted, Einstein is thought to have been an ENTp, which is not holographic-panoramic but an Ne user nonetheless. However, an associative memory need not connect different systems together in an objective manner but rather what worked in a particular moment in time and how that situation relates to the present one. It sees patterns in one's own experience of the systems rather than patterns between the systems themselves, leading to a highly subjective quality to it. In this sense, we can say that Ni users are "in the system".

    I can give you an example. I recently took an exam in proof based linear algebra. One of the problems on it looked very similar to a problem I had seen before on a problem set. Thus, I tried using a method that worked for that problem, and it worked. After completing the exam, I was talking to other people on how it was similar to a problem set problem, yet no one understood what I was talking about. That's because I had conceived of a subjective pattern based on what had worked in my past experience rather than an objective one. Contrast this with another student who is an ENTp, I believe. In class, he frequently connects a piece of knowledge that we just learned to another piece of knowledge that we had not learned (if X is true, then doesn't that mean that Y should be true? When X and Y are of completely different domains). This is not a subjective connection based on what works but rather an objective connection based on what is logically consistent. Had he not seen this, then someone else inevitably would have since there is only one possible connection between the two domains in this circumstance.

    The overall consequence of this is that Ni users are frequently misunderstood since the connections they make are very personal whereas Ne users are frequently considered out of touch with reality since the connections they make are very abstract. The difference is, however, that Ne connections are verifiable by logic whereas Ni connections are (often) not - they are only verifiable by empirical means since the connection is not an objective fact but rather one that just works.

    I hope this makes my thoughts clearer.
    Gulenko is building a new system that combines MBT and Socionics in an attempt to unify the two. He is under the assumption, as many here are, that MBTI INTP= Socionics LII. This only works when you ignore information that contradicts this assumption. For example, INTP in MBTI has a functional stack TiNeSiFe. This is much closer to Jung's idea of infantile Fe, a point of weakness within the individual. However, Socionics goes a step further and assumes that the inferier Fe needs to paired with an Fe dominant to find balance. This is something MBTI INTPs generally reject. Isn't strange that the ILI's polr is so similar to the MBTI's INTPs inferior Fe? The same with MBTI's INTJ's inferior Se. It is very similar to the LII's Se polr. This is relatively important information to ignore. So which is it? I don't think this has been worked out very well. Perhaps some MBTI INTPs would be receptive to being tamed with Fe, but I think with their inferior Fe behavior, they would repel Fe users in a manner similar to ILIs. There are little twists on information that make compatibility and direct correlations very troublesome.

    I also don't think quadras are a good way to identify individual types. Since they are largely theoretical, they are essentially "predictions" of what you would expect if the cognitive stack, its interfunctional dynamics, and the effects they are supposed to have, are true. I don't think LII, necessarily fit into an alpha, especially if their weak Fe and strong Ti puts them at odds with the group.
    Last edited by Nertle; 02-17-2019 at 12:31 PM. Reason: my apologies, I needed to make some corrections.

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    @Evolution
    I'll address both of your posts in this reply.

    Not necessarily. The Creative function isn't always "on", like the dominant function. Compare extroverted intuition as a creative function vs ignoring; not that different really.


    Ne in different functional positions: (different ways to say the same thing?)


    First post: there are a few problems I have with the idea that the creative function and the ignoring function are the same between quasi-identicals.

    First, an LII values Ne whereas an ILI doesn't value it. This is an essential part of model A that would prevent the two types from using the function in "the same way" since, if they did, then it would imply that either both of them or neither of them valued the function. That's because one type actively tries to use the function as an extension of their base whereas the other actively tries to prevent using the function so as to not take away energy from their base. If they did use the function the same way, then which would it be? I guess the conclusion we can draw from this is that while the LII values Ne, the function is limited in scope when they use it i.e. they only use the function for particular purposes, which makes it seem as though it's ignored. The ILI, on the other hand, just doesn't want to use it. Likewise, the ILI only uses Te in a limited number of ways. For example, maximizing productivity for its own sake is never the goal for an ILI like it may be for an LxE (similar to how generating ideas for its own sake is never the goal of the LII); instead, the ILI uses empirical facts and productivity to solve problems directed by their Ni. The LII just doesn't want to use the function.

    The second problem I have relates to this quote:

    *This really isn't all that different than LII. These descriptions are to contrast LII and ILI with Ne dominants. The difference in emphasis though is to direct these types into different quadras, because that is the objective of socionics.


    If we want a consistent system (as we should since socionics is not falsifiable), then we'd have to apply this same reasoning to other functions as well. For example, an ILI and LII would use Si in similar ways but model A distinguishes their relative value to be able to separate the two types into different quadras. I don't buy this idea since it would literally make ILI and LII the same type except for their base function, which simply doesn't hold in reality. Like, I know many individuals who are obvious Ti bases (and intuitives), and I can tell you for a fact that they value Si more than I do. Health, comfort, convenience, wellness, etc. are all things they make time for whereas it's almost a nonissue for me. When I do engage in those things, it's for ulterior (usually Se) reasons. For example, I may go to the gym to make myself look more attractive to a potential partner rather than for the purposes of health or wellness. I may only go to the gym for the purposes of developing physical strength, too.

    Here's the thing: if the difference in emphasis is only to direct these two types into different quadras and this difference in emphasis keeps the functions values consistent with how model A predicts, then we'd have to concede that the functions aren't used in the same way. If we want to have the idea that the functions are used in the same way, then we'd have to abandon model A's ideas of function value. We can't have both. I think that keeping model A's idea of function value makes more sense and is more consistent with reality (even if we can't test it scientifically), which makes it a more useful system to employ.

    Second post:

    Gulenko is building a new system that combines MBT and Socionics in an attempt to unify the two. He is under the assumption, as many here are, that MBTI INTP= Socionics LII. This only works when you ignore information that contradicts this assumption. For example, INTP in MBTI has a functional stack TiNeSiFe. This is much closer to Jung's idea of infantile Fe, a point of weakness within the individual. However, Socionics goes a step further and assumes that the inferier Fe needs to paired with an Fe dominant to find balance. This is something MBTI INTPs generally reject. Isn't strange that the ILI's polr is so similar to the MBTI's INTPs inferior Fe? The same with MBTI's INTJ's inferior Se. It is very similar to the LII's Se polr. This is relatively important information to ignore. So which is it? I don't think this has been worked out very well. Perhaps some MBTI INTPs would be receptive to being tamed with Fe, but I think with their inferior Fe behavior, they would repel Fe users in a manner similar to ILIs. There are little twists on information that make compatibility and direct correlations very troublesome.

    I also don't think quadras are a good way to identify individual types. Since they are largely theoretical, they are essentially "predictions" of what you would expect if the cognitive stack, its interfunctional dynamics, and the effects they are supposed to have, are true. I don't think LII, necessarily fit into an alpha, especially if their weak Fe and strong Ti puts them at odds with the group.
    I have noticed that Gulenko's work is much closer to ideas presented in MBTI, but there are many notable differences. For example, I don't think he ever made the claim that ILIs plan as much as MBTI says INTJs do. He claims they think further ahead than LIIs, which is consistent with the INTJ/INTP distinction, but he doesn't extend it to the illogical conclusion that Ni bases would be "set in stone" like MBTI does. Maybe this is his part of his attempt at unification.

    I don't buy the 1-1 formula that LII = INTP, ILI = INTJ, etc. for the same reason you suggest and others. First, you say that there is inconsistency with how MBTI describes the inferior function. Let me add to this for Fe in INTP. Part of what MBTI says is that an INTP wants to be emotionally expressive and welcoming to others but they comes across as awkward when they try to do so. This is more reminiscent of Fi role and Fe DS. An INTJ just doesn't care since they value Fi rather than Fe, which means that they value genuine emotional connection rather than "putting on an act" to welcome somebody else. This is rather consistent with Fe PoLR for ILI and gamma values. However, MBTI also describes INTPs as recluses and loners that dislike emotional contact with others, which is like PoLR Fe. It's inconsistent and therefore problematic.

    I don't think we can do the same analysis with INTJ and Se inferior and LII and Se PoLR since the fixations of Se vary so drastically in between the two systems to where they aren't even comparable. In a lot of ways, Se inferior sounds like Si PoLR in MBTI and Se PoLR sounds like a mix of Te and Se inferior in MBTI. To compare Se inferior to Se PoLR would therefore be a pretty useless comparison.

    Here are my thoughts as to why there isn't a 1-1 connection.
    I think that it really depends on how you type yourself in either system. For example, if you type yourself INTJ via descriptions in MBTI, then you're probably a rational type in socionics since socionics is more consistent with the idea that a rational leading function leads to a rational temperament than MBTI is. MBTI places more emphasis on the dominant extroverted function (but is also inconsistent with this). However, if you type yourself INTJ by thoroughly analyzing the functions, you're much more likely to type yourself ILI in socionics since you'll notice the similarities in their function stacks when you don't get caught up in the "mastermind" stereotype.


    I find that quadras are only useful for seeing general trends among types. For example, I've noticed that people I type LII often care about finance/business a lot less than people I type ILI or LIE. And I'm not being confirmationally biased here (well, as much as that's possible for an unscientific study) since I'm typing these people on a standard that's independent of financial competence and understanding. It just seems to be the case that alphas don't care about this stuff and gammas do, despite the ideas of "quadras" being abstracted to all the way to hell. Similarly, gammas just don't seem to care about health or fun (in the abstract) nearly as much as alphas do. This is part of the reason I like the subtype system. It makes certain aspects of the type stronger than others. For example, an LII-Ne is much more alpha-like than an LII-Ti, though the latter still has many traits that are stereotypically considered alpha.

    Overall, I think that it's a crapshoot as to whether an INTJ or INTP would be LII or ILI in socionics. It isn't so black and white either way you spin it.


    Also, out of curiousity, what do you type as in MBTI and socionics?
    ----- FarDraft, 2019

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    Last edited by Nertle; 02-20-2019 at 12:04 AM.

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    The "ambition" of an ILI? Oh, I can tell ya what it is. You are the martyr nobody knows of. You are the shadow nobody remembers, just another ignorant fool...

    Yet, in that one act (metaphorically speaking) that none comprehend the enormity of, you reshaped reality itself. You unmade a dark destiny and forced it to become a luminous one because you had to. The cost was your existence perhaps, but that's a bargain all things considered and you took that deal gladly .

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    Quote Originally Posted by hag View Post
    just head to a strip club and you'll be surrounded by them :-) great opportunity to make some new friends!
    Hahaha! Now that just caused me to remember that one and only time I went into one. I have to say, the strippers took what seemed to me both unusual interest and pleasure in my company (I made them all smile somehow and it felt good when they did). I didn't drop too much money I think, but it was enough to cause me to not wanna do it again any time soon. Still, I didn't know about this stuff at the time. If females are in any way more likely to become strippers than an male wandering into their lair would draw them to himself quite effectively I would imagine.

    Damn did they get close to getting me to give in now that I remember. Damn near thought that one extra sexy dark skinned girl was a legit succubus in my alcohol tinged mind... Only paranoia and faith kept me from following her into that room I was sure would have ended in us doing things that violate my religion's stance on that sort of thing. Married couples only on that score...

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