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Thread: Instinctual Stacking Confusion (Continued from Previous Conversation)

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    Haikus VenusRose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue View Post
    Yes, I agree that the 3 wing would bring out the narcissistic traits more. I don't agree that it doesn't make sense that you think Fi base can't have those feelings. Se is about action. You don't even have to act on those feelings as a 4 with Fi and Se PoLR. If you don't have those negative feelings, it would surprise me if one was a 4. A type that tends towards modesty is a 9, not a 4.
    I said I have a hard time seeing Fi users as narcissistic in the way 4s are described perhaps because I feel like 'authenticity,' being 'natural' if you will, subdued, is pretty much part of what Delta quadra values and comes across as.

    I don't really want to be attacked...
    I had made that pretty clear.


    In what way? A 4 is a type driven by envy. That surely can make one spiteful if you think someone has a better lot in life than you.
    The second manifestation of our PoLR is a complete aversion to force, aggression, conflict, violence, competition, and the whole idea of bending people and situations to get what one wants. This is where you get the “overly sensitive” aspect of our personalities. If someone says something in a way that is remotely confrontational, we retreat. If someone really wants to argue, we fall silent. If people are fighting, we will either try to settle the disagreement, get up and leave, or both. We will not “intrude on others' space,” whether physically or psychologically. We are virtually incapable of making anyone do anything or refusing a request. No matter how badly we may want something, if you flatly refuse, we are likely to back down, at least after a short while. EIIs do not make things happen – we prefer to wait for them to happen or let someone else take the lead. In those rare occasions where we try to be forceful, we become extremely uncomfortable and vulnerable. It's terrifying. We want everyone to get along, to share their thoughts in an accepting and peaceful discourse. We want everyone to “win” and leave unscarred, and since that seldom happens in an Se environment, we avoid such environments.

    You're putting words in the type description's mouth. Where does it say this or imply in any description that sx 4s lack empathy? I find 4s no matter what the subtype to be one of the more empathetic types.
    You may be reading too much into my description. To make others suffer because you need to be 'superior' is my eyes is a petty reason, and there's never any good reason to hurt someone else or 'make them suffer'...
    That's still lack of empathy.

    Yes, 4s can be angry, but it doesn't say they show violent behavior or are ready to attack or confront. That's an 8. A 4 when you trigger their identity, shame, or envy issues may show their claws to you though. It's not uncommon. Even if they retreat from confrontation like a Se PoLR and hide out stewing in their negative emotions. Why they are doing it is the better question. With a 4, it's because you maybe didn't understand them.
    Um, sure, I guess I did mention that before somewhere. Still nowhere close to the description though.

    Probably seen more in 3 wingers but the competitive drive to be seen as superior especially in relation to their rivals is a driving force for them. Again it's envy. You need to understand that emotion and all it entails to understand why this isn't out of line with a 4. A 4 will strive to be unique and authentic to themselves in this pursuit as opposed to a 3. That's the difference.
    But it's not Se PoLR, I think that description makes it pretty clear...

    Yes this is just to say that sx 4s may be aware of anger in their personality more than sadness. I've already provided examples of sx 4s speaking to this quality.
    Not accounting for Se PoLRs again. I don't think I am like that.

    @mrrrmaid addressed this one already, and I wholly agree with what she had to say.
    Idk, most of the conversations and descriptions I find I never relate to, maybe because like I said earlier, they don't take into account Se PoLR. But I can also see things a little differently.

    Also, yeah, Se PoLRs don't want to argue, and something I have noticed is that some people are happy with basically steam-rolling the other person instead of just letting them be. They emerge 'victorious' publicly speaking, with their narrative predominant. Regardless of what others might or might not think; truth or reality doesn't matter, bending reality to your will - 'winning' matters. I despise it.

    Doesn't mean I agree with it. But it's not in the best interests of my psychological health to make myself vulnerable to these things repeatedly. I just wanted to clarify some things in this post, that's why I responded...

    The way you describe how you are seems more 9 to me. I'm not saying you're a 9, but have you looked at sx 9 if you have a problem with sx 4 descriptions? They can be confused with 4s. I don't want to take this away from andreasdevig's thread, and a lot of this discussion about sx 4 is doing that. I did find it interesting and couldn't help myself.
    This isn't a new thing to me either. What if you tried to see my descriptions from the 4 perspective? Or sx 4. Instead of 9...
    People can have their own way of interpreting things, as long as they provide a general explanation for it, it's fine, imo.

    Yes, that's true for 4s. The way you describe tying one self to another is more 9 though.
    I am not sure what you mean with this one.

    4s are more independent in their sense of self and seek to find the other who will redeem them from their flawed state. There's a hole of emptiness they are trying to fill. They aren't so much tied to their "special other half" as they idealize them. 9s merge, 4s long.
    I don't think I said anything that should contradict this...if anything what you quoted me saying was in line with this.

    You take issue with Beatrice Chestnut's description but are there any other sx 4 descriptions you relate to? Surely there is one that resonated with you can speak to? They don't all paint a picture of an aggressive, angry type. The link I provided earlier by Riso Hudson isn't like that, for reference. I think it's probably the best one I've seen.
    Yeah, there were a couple that I was okay with, but too lazy to look them up right now.

    I'm confused. I don't associate wanting to be unique with 3s. That's 4.
    Yeah, as I mentioned in my reply to mrrrmaid...just forgetting about the enneagram completely...
    when I think of someone describing themselves as 'wanting to be unique' it comes across as tacky. Same for 'significant' and 'different' or whatever. ALL of those words I guess I associate with...tackiness. Not to say it's bad to want to be those things; but I honestly think that's a strange way to phrase the core of the 4. 4 has internalized this 'bad object' so much that the fact that they are different IS the ocean they swim in. They don't 'want' to be so much as they ARE.

    This isn't 5. You're describing core 4 patterns but you say you don't relate to it?
    I was injecting 5 into 4; not 5 by itself.
    As for 4 patterns, hopefully some of my earlier replies cleared that up.

    I wouldn't be too sure. 4s will identify with the "ugly duckling" image more so, yes, especially so 4s, but 3s can definitely feel like an ugly duckling (All those stars and their plastic surgeries!) or at least worthless and their striving to be the best and accomplish much in their life is a strategy to address that feeling. You said right above this that 3s care about being the best in the eyes of the status quo, so why would they also care about uniqueness? You can't fit in the status quo and care about uniqueness at the same time. 4s are the ones who want to be recognized for their uniqueness, more 3 wings too.
    Yes, anybody can feel like an ugly duckling. The difference with core 4 is that is - again - the ocean they swim in. They are not receptive to anyone pointing out something positive about them, compliments etc. no they will INSIST there is something wrong with them. They WANT that 'ugly' image of them validated. Hence the 'self-frustrating' or 'masochistic' personality type.

    Many other types may be at least able to see their good qualities, even if they feel bad about themselves - better than a 4.

    Again that doesn't sound exactly 4 to me. They will appreciate the ugliness more than a 3, yes, but they can often assume they are more special and real than others, so saying no one is deeper than anyone else strikes me as odd for a 4? 9s are a type more prone to universalizing sentiments while 4s very much appreciate individuality and people who are different.
    I am glad if I don't sound like a 4 as much anymore
    I have been working on this.

    You have to draw some lines about the subtypes too.
    Sure, but I don't agree with the pre-dominant image of SX 4 that is out there. That is conflicts with Se PoLR should be extremely obvious...and to me, saying 4s HAVE to be (basically non Se-PoLR things), implies Se PoLRs can't be SX 4s.

    Yes, I'm glad you see how that connects now, but then how are those traits pretty human if you also acknowledge that a person driven by envy, which is a 4 above any type, shares it too? It means you see that it is specific to 4.
    Ah, I meant that all these '9 archetypes' are still human. I feel like people tend to get lost in their type identification and may not realize how it actually 'universalizes' so to speak. That others have a piece of that in them as well.

    What if Se PoLR types were a part of those descriptions? You can't really say imo.
    Sure, anything de-emphasizing the competitiveness, aggression, hostility, cruelty etc. could possibly be a more Se PoLR description of 4.

    A 4 is still envious no matter what your Sociotype. It must be said they aren't angry and hateful all the time.
    Sure. I don't think that means they are going to hurt others, though. As much or as badly as the description suggests...

    That really isn't helpful to say that behavior in line with the type as she described is just "normal". She was showing a pretty clear 4 pattern in her description of herself. Other types would not react in that manner. The 3 wing does enhance the outwardness of it, yes.
    I wouldn't do something like that; yet I think there are a lot of people who would be perfectly fine being mean in that way because they felt bad about themselves. In that sense, I was saying it sounds 'normal.' Most people can be rather 'cruel' (by that word I just mean things I would never imagine doing myself lol, but not necessarily cruel in the sense of horrible or anything like that...)

    Why do you think Sx 4s would go against their values or be cruel to others either?
    I think my reference to Se PoLR should it make it very clear why I find that the classic SX 4 description sounds 'cruel' and to me would be against my values for sure.

    No, many people aren't really that in my experience. Have you seen a 9 act that way? Have those feelings? You really have to push a 9 especially 1 wing to become aggressive towards you. They have a hangup with getting angry. 4s not so much. You tick them off, question their identity, trigger their envy, and they will let their feelings dictate where they go, unfortunately.
    Se PoLRs still aren't going to behave in those overly aggressive ways, I think. The description makes that very clear.

    They may not have gotten it right. True. I still don't think Se PoLR is an adequate explanation for that description being wrong when others can relate to it in different ways too.
    Yeah, I addressed this in my earlier posts too. I see most people as much more capable of being ‘mean’ by deriding someone, for instance, but I don’t do that and don’t really see myself doing that. In my eyes, most people are capable in acting in those ways if they feel 'envious' enough.

    So yes, many people can relate to it, except for maybe the very, very sensitive Se PoLR

    I just think some clarity from another perspective of someone outside the type can be helpful too. Also please don't take my comparison of you to 9 as suggesting that is your type. I don't want to make that assumption when I have not seen enough and could be making more distinctions about the types than necessary, not that I don't think what I said is inaccurate. Just what you described about the type read that way to me, not that it describes you.
    That's fine.
    Last edited by VenusRose; 12-27-2018 at 09:56 AM.

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