Yes, I agree that the 3 wing would bring out the narcissistic traits more. I don't agree that it doesn't make sense that you think Fi base can't have those feelings. Se is about action. You don't even have to act on those feelings as a 4 with Fi and Se PoLR. If you don't have those negative feelings, it would surprise me if one was a 4. A type that tends towards modesty is a 9, not a 4.
That can be more attributed to 3 wing.Here are the things I don't relate to (and perhaps several other SX 4s don't either):
- entitlement
- narcissism
In what way? A 4 is a type driven by envy. That surely can make one spiteful if you think someone has a better lot in life than you.- spitefulness in the way it is described
You're putting words in the type description's mouth. Where does it say this or imply in any description that sx 4s lack empathy? I find 4s no matter what the subtype to be one of the more empathetic types.- lack of empathy basically
Yes, 4s can be angry, but it doesn't say they show violent behavior or are ready to attack or confront. That's an 8. A 4 when you trigger their identity, shame, or envy issues may show their claws to you though. It's not uncommon. Even if they retreat from confrontation like a Se PoLR and hide out stewing in their negative emotions. Why they are doing it is the better question. With a 4, it's because you maybe didn't understand them.- anger
- aggression (hostile or violent behavior or attitudes toward another; readiness to attack or confront).
In more damaged cases they can be. They are more of a shameless type of 4. I wouldn't say it's a hard rule. Sx 4s can be very nice too.- malicious
Probably seen more in 3 wingers but the competitive drive to be seen as superior especially in relation to their rivals is a driving force for them. Again it's envy. You need to understand that emotion and all it entails to understand why this isn't out of line with a 4. A 4 will strive to be unique and authentic to themselves in this pursuit as opposed to a 3. That's the difference.- wanting to be superior
Yes this is just to say that sx 4s may be aware of anger in their personality more than sadness. I've already provided examples of sx 4s speaking to this quality.- being "consciously aware" of their anger
Yes they can be demanding to fill the sense of lack. Not always, but it's not unthinkable.- "demanding what is rightfully theirs"
@mrrrmaid addressed this one already, and I wholly agree with what she had to say.- "They want to be special and significant in the eyes of their partner"
(mostly issue with significant in the last one, that sounds very 3._
The way you describe how you are seems more 9 to me. I'm not saying you're a 9, but have you looked at sx 9 if you have a problem with sx 4 descriptions? They can be confused with 4s. I don't want to take this away from andreasdevig's thread, and a lot of this discussion about sx 4 is doing that. I did find it interesting and couldn't help myself.I am very shy, modest, nice, peaceful albeit - intense at times, emotional, i can indeed "bite" so to speak when hurt, but that anger isn't there because im entitled, it's there because i think I feel that im ugly and repulsive to the core (im not actually but, that's how it feels at times). It's not hatred because of some entitlement, it's hatred because i hate myself and all i can see in the other person's eyes is the same thing. I could go deeper into it and but needless to say im not comfortable with the predominant image of a SX 4 being forced onto me or super-imposed onto me. I don't really want to argue or be attacked about this, unless you wanted to do it non-aggressively.
Yes, that's true for 4s. The way you describe tying one self to another is more 9 though. 4s are more independent in their sense of self and seek to find the other who will redeem them from their flawed state. There's a hole of emptiness they are trying to fill. They aren't so much tied to their "special other half" as they idealize them. 9s merge, 4s long.Type 4: "there's something horribly wrong with me, I am ugly inside" + SX: my meaning in everything, sense of self, self worth, and very life essence itself seems to be tied to the 'special other half': There's something horribly ugly at my core, but I must find someone who will love me regardless.
You take issue with Beatrice Chestnut's description but are there any other sx 4 descriptions you relate to? Surely there is one that resonated with you can speak to? They don't all paint a picture of an aggressive, angry type. The link I provided earlier by Riso Hudson isn't like that, for reference. I think it's probably the best one I've seen.
I'm confused. I don't associate wanting to be unique with 3s. That's 4.Yeah, well, it depends on the way "significance" is stated. I associate an overt desire to be "unique" and to be "significant" with type 3 influence. I just cannot see that in myself...
This isn't 5. You're describing core 4 patterns but you say you don't relate to it?5 being a head type, with it brings an unconscious feeling of being irredeemably and horribly broken inside, but not necessarily a conscious urge to be "unique, significant and compete." I don't care about those things. It's just...again not something I am and not something I ever have been...
Yes, you're right.Being unique and noteworthy by playing on society's terms and "competing" and coming out the best again in the eyes of the status quo - that's 3.
4s don't care, imo. Of course, 4 with 3 influence can be like that.
I wouldn't be too sure. 4s will identify with the "ugly duckling" image more so, yes, especially so 4s, but 3s can definitely feel like an ugly duckling (All those stars and their plastic surgeries!) or at least worthless and their striving to be the best and accomplish much in their life is a strategy to address that feeling. You said right above this that 3s care about being the best in the eyes of the status quo, so why would they also care about uniqueness? You can't fit in the status quo and care about uniqueness at the same time. 4s are the ones who want to be recognized for their uniqueness, more 3 wings too.Threes can very much care about being unique just in the way you described, but like I said, they want to be, but they don't necessarily already feel unique in the sense of being the "ugly duckling"! That's 4. Everything else...well I can see that as other types as well, including 3.
Again that doesn't sound exactly 4 to me. They will appreciate the ugliness more than a 3, yes, but they can often assume they are more special and real than others, so saying no one is deeper than anyone else strikes me as odd for a 4? 9s are a type more prone to universalizing sentiments while 4s very much appreciate individuality and people who are different.4s are already nothing like anyone else, why bother competing? I am not agreeing or disagreeing with that haha, just trying to provide I guess what they might be thinking.
Honestly though, I don't think anyone else is not "deep" it's just that people can act in shallow, uninteresting ways at times and what 4 wants more than anything is to see your 'ugliness' if you will, they just want you to be you. The 'authentic' you. No one is 'deeper' than anyone else...
Already been over this with mrrrmaid."special" and "significant" to me feels like...idk like something artificial. It's not natural. I can't relate to those words specifically. 4s hone their 'uniqueness' because they already feel ugly inside in the sense of being uglier than everyone else - and so "unique" in that way. "Special" and significant the way it is used in society usually, I associate with type 3. Special and significant in the eyes of the status quo.
You have to draw some lines about the subtypes too.Chestnut copied from Naranjo as far as I can tell. Also, this is from word of mouth, I don't have actual proof yet - but apparently Naranjo took back his description of the SX 4 saying he didn't consider it as accurate anymore.
Those authors may have re-stated the previous information on the enneagram types, perhaps not wanting to change much about them.
I think there can be many variations on a type, I am not going to box "Sx 4s" into anything yet. Except maybe the very basic core.
Yes, I'm glad you see how that connects now, but then how are those traits pretty human if you also acknowledge that a person driven by envy, which is a 4 above any type, shares it too? It means you see that it is specific to 4.I could perhaps be wrong but maybe they...
1) copied from each other
and 2) possibly took the loudest example of an SX 4 since it was most obvious. Like I said, spitefulness and meanness are actually pretty human...I can certainly see that someone driven by envy could behave that way.
What if Se PoLR types were a part of those descriptions? You can't really say imo.But the problem comes with Se PoLRs. Se PoLR descriptions explicitly state xIIs would not at all be into those things. At all.
But since not all SX4s would be Se PoLR or even the louder version of the type...they may have been omitted from these descriptions.
A 4 is still envious no matter what your Sociotype. It must be said they aren't angry and hateful all the time.I know we are talking about types here but... honestly this just sounds normal. Not saying it is unrelated to type but I think sometimes people project very human things onto type. I think I would give Se PoLR 4s some leeway with that "envious and spiteful" stuff though.
That really isn't helpful to say that behavior in line with the type as she described is just "normal". She was showing a pretty clear 4 pattern in her description of herself. Other types would not react in that manner. The 3 wing does enhance the outwardness of it, yes.I am not mean, I don't want to do something like that. Not judging you, it's just not something I would do.
It also sounds...normal. Perhaps you might get a little exasperated with me pointing this out but...after all the e-types are universal human themes/archetypes, haha.
Why do you think Sx 4s would go against their values or be cruel to others either? You seem to be reading more into the description than is there a lot of the time from my perspective. I don't mean that in a bad way but I just thought you may want to consider that. I'm just trying to make neutral observations.I am not aggressive, using the description that I used for my last post. Unless I get hurt badly, which rarely happens, obviously. My heart has to be broken badly. Even then I wouldn't go against my values (Fi) or be cruel to someone (Se PoLR).
No, many people aren't really that in my experience. Have you seen a 9 act that way? Have those feelings? You really have to push a 9 especially 1 wing to become aggressive towards you. They have a hangup with getting angry. 4s not so much. You tick them off, question their identity, trigger their envy, and they will let their feelings dictate where they go, unfortunately.Many people are aggressive, spiteful, vindictive, envious - imo most people are capable of these things...4-ishness or not. The thing with EIIs though is that they try their best to steer clear of those things. Of course extreme instances and trauma can drive any type into doing really anything, but generally speaking.
They may not have gotten it right. True. I still don't think Se PoLR is an adequate explanation for that description being wrong when others can relate to it in different ways too. I just think some clarity from another perspective of someone outside the type can be helpful too. Also please don't take my comparison of you to 9 as suggesting that is your type. I don't want to make that assumption when I have not seen enough and could be making more distinctions about the types than necessary, not that I don't think what I said is inaccurate. Just what you described about the type read that way to me, not that it describes you.If we go by Naranjo description, the SO 4 would be me, even though I am not Social first. I just want to make clear I am definitely not the SX 4 description lol, and the social 4 is strikingly very much like me. It was wayyy too accurate. Except my issues are not tied to the social realm as intensely as they are to the SX realm. But in my demeanor, I am absolutely the SO 4 description and not the SX 4. Which is why I don't think they necessarily got the subtype right.





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