Any thoughts?
LII-SLI Benefit Relations (INTj & ISTp)
Any thoughts?
its ok.
what specifically would you like to know?
Friends with benefits
LIIs are asexual.
/jk
I would like to know how this relationship even start, obviously if they aren't family members. How does it develop? I think both LIIs and SLIs don't take initiative/action to start a relationship. I also think both types have some sort of walls/barriers, although they might be invisible to others and themselves. It is written that it is usually the benefactor who initiates the contact. So maybe this benefit relationship never starts because LIIs suck at taking initiative, especially if they don't get any emotional feedback that indicates the other person is interested.
I am also curious about what sort of connection would LIIs and SLIs have? How does it play out in short term and long term? What do they think and feel about each other? I would appreciate if anyone has any experience or observation that they would like to share about this relationship.
Speaking only for myself here: I tend to get along alright with SLIs. They're chill people, and they appreciate my interests to some extent. However I do find they don't communicate well or offer much feedback which makes it difficult to form a more solid relationship. In my experience, if anyone in the relationship was to take initiative it would be me. In another case we had a mutual friend and were involved in the same social circles.
@thehotelambush I see your point
Originally Posted by thehotelambush
I usually have an instant connection with IEIs. They usually start the conversation, they take initiative to form a relationship immediately after we met. I think each benefit relations can be really deep in a way that couldn't be attained with any other type because of the combination of strong shared functions and complementing forms of cognition (see:http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Victor-Gulenko). I like the deep intuitive mental connection that I have with IEIs, I wonder is it because Ni-Ti. If so, then maybe a relationship with SLI can offer a tangible mental connection (Si-Ti).
I am curious why LIIs and SLIs can't form close relationships. I am also curious about what I am missing. It is not because we are both logical types. LSIs and ILIs can form a close relationship easily. There were 3 benefit relationship threads that wasn't opened until I did so: SEI-LSI, SLE-ESE and LII-SLI. I think SLE-ESE relationships exist, I assume that thread hasn't opened because of their lack of interest. However, I haven't witnessed any LSI-SEI relationship. As far as I know, Si and Ti bases suck at forming benefit relationships, I am curious why is that so. Ofcourse, I could be wrong, this is just a theory. I want to be wrong
That's interesting, my experience has been exactly the opposite with my LII gf. Maybe subtype matters a lot in this topic.
I was the first one to talking to my LII gf in class. She didn't look very friendly but for some reason I took a sit next to her and started talking to her. I guess I thought she looked smart, decent and low key interesting. In time it developed pretty well. We became best friends in hs and today we still being friends. I'm not sure about her subtype in dcnh (N or D mb), but I've never seen her in my whole life initiating an interaction or conversation that is not merely formal with strangers. She doesnt seem very interested in making friends either, even when she truly craves human contact (Fe suggestive?) more than I do for example. Luckily, ppl always approached her. I think she must be LII strong Ti subtype.
Then, she always took pretty seriously school and career, she's kinda nerdy, she always was interested in getting high scores, it was a matter of pride and the social/group/family worth probably (both of her parents seem Se). So yeah. Besides that, very serious and professional, seems self centered even when she likes Fe and being around ppl or needs a friend/partner (nanny?) besides her she's kinda selfish and that was an impediment to her investing herself in relationships (like to make them work). Maybe its just that her style is childlike. Most of her relationships were pretty much like alcohol, sex and hard consequences for her to handle. Now she seems resigned to not getting married neither having kids. She currently share apartment with another single ESE girlfriend.
In hs I always was the one who went to her house (she has visited me like twice in our entire life), the one who must call her, and things like that. She never done an effort to truly approached me in any way, still, she needed and wanted me doing almost everything and when It wasnt possible for me, she got upset and limited her contact with me since I was giving preference to my relationship than our friendship (for me thats normal and natural not the opposite).
We still talking to each other and I visit her once in while.
Despite that, I really value our friendship, she's honest, intelligent and have a good sense of humor, we can talk about almost anything and we had a lot of good times together over years supporting each other, there was a very deep understanding and connection. I've always loved her and I never felt like her childlike selfishness was an obstacle in our friendship (unless not from my part), I think I like that she has always been sincere as a kid and according her parents I was her dearest friend. She was physically and sentimentally frail so she so woke up my protective side.
I've no clue how it works in romantic relations honestly. So hope that could be helpful somehow.
Would you like to know something else?
Last edited by Hope; 11-04-2018 at 01:55 AM.
I saw a male LII PhD researcher talk to a female SLI PhD student about a project they were both working on. The LII is about 36, Irish, six feet tall, built like a bear (heavy, pre-diabetic), balding, dresses sloppily, with a long red scraggly beard. The SLI is tall, thin, serious, careful, neat, well-dressed, conscientious, hard-working, with classy black hair, and is about 24 or 26 and quite attractive.
The LII would approach her desk with a question and would pull up and sit on one of those 30" diameter inflatable exercise balls. She would look down on him from her desk chair.
Much to my amazement, she found him both fascinating and attractive. The only thing that could explain this is the Christmas morning feeling that the Benefit partner gets from the relationship. Plus, perhaps, Caregiver to Infantile.
Then she moved back to Sri Lanka to finish her studies.
@Aki, I am glad to hear that LII-SLI relationship exists. I think family relationhips and work relationships (if they don't form a friendship outside of the workplace) have other kind of dimmensions, so those interactions seem limited or affected by some kind of noise. Your post is what was I looking for. She also seemed LII-Ti to me.
After the age of 14 and before my early 20s, I was also prone to not engage with people. My friends always called me first, they were the ones that want to meet etc. I think that was unhealthy. I went through some emotional stiuations, however, I didn't process it and that kind of made me guarded. I value my independence and freedom very much. My feelings develop after I know a person and some time has to pass so that I could form a bond with a person. I can care deeply and invest so much after some point. It is very hard for me to break off a relationship once that bond is formed. When I look back, I think my behaviors was resulted by my unconcious defence mechanism. I think LIIs are great at investigating things but not their emotions. They can show this kind of unhealthy pattern if they have an unexamined emotional baggage.
After some events that enlightened me, I became aware that I want to have more deep and meaningful relationships and after that I start to take more initiative and my existing relationships have gotten deeper. I can easily talk with strangers, I like to meet with new people because I want to see if there is a potential for relationship, if not, I want to know their way of looking at life. I still don't usually take initiative at the very beginnig of relationships. I hope thats ok to form friendships with SLIs.
I think its ok, but I guess depends on the SLI.
An SLI-LII friendship in my circle of acquaintances. I'll call them S and L
They first met in primary school, where the S found the L unsympathetic (cold, thin-skinned and wasn't easy to get close to). In high school they became friends. L was serious about her studies and had a clear plan for her life. S didn't finish high school and went to an arts school - she changed her mind and came back to the same high school - only to drop out later.
They continued to be friends for four or five years after that. They never openly fought. In fact their friendship was very calm - almost cold to outsiders. One of the main issues was that they had different temperaments. L expected S to always answer to texts and messages timely. Sometimes S forgot to answer which L (expecting an ESE) perceived as cold and uncaring.
S was never to meet L's expectations of warmth and care ("It's like talking to a marble statue"). When L did something for S , S wasn't able the respond like an ESE, so L always felt like her gifts, plans and time where not appreciated at all. (That doesn't mean that the L did all the work in the friendship - it's just her perspective)
L offered many ideas on how to pass time, what they could do, where they could go ... but S never took those floods of ideas seriously ( prob. thinking that L would change her mind eventually). L however got the feeling that S didn't value their time together. With every new meeting the L felt emptier - but (and this is a huge problem) she never openly talked about what she felt about their friendship.
Personally, I think she should have told S how she felt and what she wanted instead of hoping that the friendship would fix itself- instead it got worse when the S got into a serious relationship. Now that S put most of her energy into the relationship the friendship (for L) became more and more unimportant. S still valued her friendship and was always there for L when she needed her but eventually L called quits.
Although their relationships can be very congenial, they rarely travel the same path. SLIs seem to listen to LII perspectives but often don't make use of it while LIIs can be impressed with SLI abilities but get annoyed with their protectionism or intransigent views. LIIs seem to prefer them in small doses largely because of the SLI tendencies to focus too narrowly and take criticism as personal affronts. SLIs seem to frequently think that LIIs are insensitive or oblivious to reality.....
a.k.a. I/O
While I don’t have anything to add about SLI-LII relationship, I have to say it’s pretty uncanny how much I could relate to this LII girl you describe. I think your assessment that she is a strong Ti subtype might be spot on, since I am most likely one myself. (It’s interesting too that you think her parents are Se, given that I type my mom SLE - so many coincidences.)
Speaking from my own life experience, I think that trying to befriend/initiate a relationship with an LII can be a true test of patience, since we are almost never likely to initiate contact with someone even if we feel like we might enjoy hanging around with them. If I think about all the firendships I’ve had in my life, I have a hard time recalling a moment where I was explicitly ‘forward’ with the people around me - a lot of the time I was simply passively ‘enduring’ someone else’s initiative until I decided I liked them, after all. Your ‘strategy’ to keep sitting next to your her I think is a particularly effective one with LIIs - at first we will be puzzled/confused by this behaviour, trying to question its reasons (“why are they sitting next to me, of all people?”, “what is their aim, what do they want from me?”, “what is it that they see in me?”), but over time we sort of get used to your presence and defences gradually drop down. It can be a slow process, however, and one that requires persistence, because the LII barely pays any attention to what is going on from a relational standpoint - we are often not sure of the degree of someone’s interest in us, and even when we are relatively sure it often simply doesn’t occur to us that we should do something to help reduce the psychological distance.
I have only recently realized that the extreme “passiveness” of this behaviour actually closes off a lot of opportunities for good relationships and that it can make those people who like me and wish to befriend me suffer an unnecessary amount because they have to put up with my distance and unavailability. As I read through your post at times I almost felt like apologizing on your friend’s behalf because I am sure I’ve pulled a similar type of ‘selfishness’ in the past on some of my best friends right now. And it makes me appreciate them all the more because now I know what kind of patience it took them to drill through this concrete wall of shyness I carry around with myself.
A lot of what you said is definitely LII-like except for the above excerpts, which seem rather Ip-like......
a.k.a I/O
It’s possible I might be a little over-exaggerating some concepts in my exposition, as I sometimes tend to do. Also, I’m not entirely sure how much of a character trait such as “shyness” can be explained by Socionics. Even as a LII, think I’m more shy than most.A lot of what you said is definitely LII-like except for the above excerpts, which seem rather Ip-like......
a.k.a I/O
Also I would like to add that, in stereotypical Fe dual-seeking behaviour, I can definitely “light up” in the right circumstances so it’s possible to observe me being more loud/expressive in a sort of weird, childlike way. I am actually usually pretty jovial around people I know well.
I think Ti ultimately offers a secure refuge if you’re someone that’s shy/suffers from anxiety. If the world is scary, you can still sit back and analyse it, over and over again, to no end, leading to a situation of analysis paralysis that’s quite difficult to get out of. I think this is because while Ti is a great tool to analyse logical systems, people are often too complex to easily boil down to one, and also it is quite difficult to analyse one’s emotions without in a way losing their “essence”, their “spontaneity” in the process - which is similar to what others have said in this thread, about LIIs not being fully in contact with their emotions. When I become to fixated in Ti-mode the world sort of becomes a grey, robotic, mechanical, ultimately meaningless landscape. Fe types do a lot to get me out of this situation, allowing me to live life more spontaneously and take things as they come, instead of eternally dwelling over them in my head. Maybe it’s like ILIs with Se, except completely different.
Well, my username was not chosen randomly.
LII and SLI are both introverts with low Fe and deprioritized Se - there really isn't much more to it.@thehotelambush I see your point
I usually have an instant connection with IEIs. They usually start the conversation, they take initiative to form a relationship immediately after we met. I think each benefit relations can be really deep in a way that couldn't be attained with any other type because of the combination of strong shared functions and complementing forms of cognition (see:http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Victor-Gulenko). I like the deep intuitive mental connection that I have with IEIs, I wonder is it because Ni-Ti. If so, then maybe a relationship with SLI can offer a tangible mental connection (Si-Ti).
I am curious why LIIs and SLIs can't form close relationships. I am also curious about what I am missing. It is not because we are both logical types. LSIs and ILIs can form a close relationship easily. There were 3 benefit relationship threads that wasn't opened until I did so: SEI-LSI, SLE-ESE and LII-SLI. I think SLE-ESE relationships exist, I assume that thread hasn't opened because of their lack of interest. However, I haven't witnessed any LSI-SEI relationship. As far as I know, Si and Ti bases suck at forming benefit relationships, I am curious why is that so. Ofcourse, I could be wrong, this is just a theory. I want to be wrong
@thehotelambush Yes, I was reading too much into it.
What SLI think and feel about LII's Fe in short and long term? Except Fe seeking part, how do LIIs use their Fe according to SLI's point of view?
I only had one negative experience with an LII. He made his problems public. It was a group project and he had a personal beef with an SLI girl and instead of solving the problem by talking to the tutor (head of the group) in private, he preferred to rant about it while others had to listen to him. He took things personally so reasoning with him wasn't possible.
All other LIIs I've known (mostly co-workers and one tutor at uni) were incredible patient. They never made me feel like an idiot - even when I made mistakes. They accepted that I need time to learn and that learning means making mistakes. Even when I had a dozen questions they still listened carefully and answered all my questions competently. They are a lot more indirect with their encouragement than ESEs (calmer, sensible) and I think their Fe it mostly shows in what they didn't do: no passive aggression, no subtle insults or dismissal, acceptance... and one LII was kinda funny. He was a typical nerd with glasses - but muscular! Sometimes he bumped into the doorframe (head in the clouds I guess) and then he took a step back, tuned by 90 degrees and "squeezed" himself through the door (acted as if he's just too big and too muscular to fit properly to the door) - that always made me chuckle
LIIs don't have much Fe. Once in a while they venture outside to seek up for some Fe fun, like going to a party and getting drunk. Once drunk they can provoke a little drama to get some passionate Fe Si reaction, if it happens they have a partner. Besides that, they can fall into have this agreement with pop culture, such as ideologies, music, etc. Nothing too dramatic. They can appreciate family life.
Idk to me, benefit relationships are subconsciously all about power and superiority. The benefactor always, subconsciously w/o really wanting to, feels like they are innately more powerful/better/popular/more well-equipped (Even if both are 'loser nerds' objectively) than the beneficiary. Because LII is my beneficiary, it's hard for me to see them where they are the ones on top compared to me, so I'm curious from others how this happens. LIIs can only very briefly once in a great while hurt my feelings, and very slightly so. When they try to hurt or damage me it's like 'lol/condescendingly laugh at them from a higher cloud while thinking how adorable they are.' And it's not like I even mean or want for this to happen- because ISFjs treat me the same way, I think its natural socionics at play. It all feels so deeply ingrained. I can still get mad at intjs, but nothing sadistic seems to 'stick' in a way compared to other types. I've wondered if other benefactors feel this way about their beneficiary?
Because my type is a stereotypically a 'victim' type, most types feel like they are the shark and I'm the helpless fish- but LII (along with ESE) is where it feels that is reversed.
However, I also realize I'm seeing benefit relations from a very Se-valuing stand point of power lol.
bump
The Policeman and I have a very close and intimate platonic Benefit relationship. I always support him at all times and he sits there indifferent about it. I always agree with everything he says and act as his cheerleader but he gets mad at the things I say sometimes for reasons unclear to me. All in all, wouldn't have it any other way
It looks like the earlier comments were about sexual relationships. I've never dated an SLI.
In general it's a mixed bag. Like @Rebelondeck said SLIs can be inflexible, which isn't pleasant. They can also be interesting and intelligent. SLIs seem to like me in general; I probably respond with a chillier attitude than is warranted to this. It might be related to the way they use Fi to try to create a sense of familiarity and a sense of being in some kind of group together. It might be related to aristocracy as well, since I don't think ILIs really do this.
I think why I dislike this has to do with the difference between Ti and Fi. I have many thoughts on this, but it's difficult to nail this down well, especially when your understanding of Fi is only superficial. I've tried a few times to describe how I think in relation to Fi, but the attempt keeps devolving into tangents. Instead I'll just say that I recognize that SLIs misunderstand me, how I see them, how I see the world, and how I think, on a fundamental level, in a way that I think would probably disturb them if they were to develop a better understanding of it. Trying to solicit camaraderie from me in the way they seek it would be like seeking it from a rock or a robot. I say "robot" because a robot would be unlikely to think like humans, and if it were to respond to such an attempt it would be a pretense. So it would be with me. I don't have a desire to encourage this kind of misunderstanding, and the attempt wouldn't be pleasant for me, and so I try to maintain a certain distance.
On the whole I'd say I have no particular opinion of the type, good or bad. I like some SLIs; I dislike others, but I don't have much else to say about the type as a whole.
Why do you say my understanding is superficial? I have compared you to Data from TNG before.
I'll still follow you Policeman, to the ends of the earth! Our bonds are too deep to be broken, whether you realize it or appreciate it is irrelevant! It is true all the same!
If it isn't, perhaps it's just that I don't understand you.
Anyway, I wouldn't say I'm like Data. I don't want to "become human"; that is become Fi-valuing; I just want Fe-validation. I'm aware that my responses are assumed and not "genuinely" felt in the sense an Fi valuer would understand (maybe even an Fe-ego), but I don't care, and perhaps I don't have the ability to care about this. As long as I'm pleasing to people and accepted I don't mind not being regarded as human. Fe-valuers don't care whether I am or not; meeting certain social standards is enough to win their affection/Fe. That isn't true of Fi-valuers, and SLIs especially seem to assume I'm something I'm not, or have the ability to become human.
I'm speaking in this way just to extend the analogy, and forgive me if it sounds a little melodramatic. I don't consider myself a robot at all, but my point is that it seems to me that SLIs tend to underestimate the gap between our understandings of things.
Anyway, if you'd follow me I'd tell you to develop a healthy skepticism of Scientology. Lol. I won't say to leave the church because God knows there aren't many social institutions left, and a parasitic cult like that is probably better than nothing at all, I actually think. Still, maybe you can be a covert atheist. Better yet, join a real church instead (I've relented my stance on Catholicism; it might be OK if the majority of congregants speak a Romance language (certainly not Polish) that's not French. And obviously no televangelism, any church with a URL in its name, no Calvinism, no churches with >200 members or so attending weekly, and "non-denominationalism" is heavily suspect. Also don't attend a church where more than 5% or so of congregants are upper-middle class or rich. And if you were in doubt, charismatics are OK if other qualifiers are met).
I'm getting drunk so I apologize if this isn't the clearest/seems rambling.
I've expressed this before but I have rather poor communication skills in that I find it very difficult to express or explain my thoughts well, be it on paper or spoken. I wouldn't be surprised if my thoughts on everything seemed rather superficial.
I'm on the opposite side of the fence where it is Fe egos that make me feel like I'm not human. I have an ESE security guard at work who always criticizes me and implies or directly says that there's something wrong with me because I don't act loud and obnoxious. Not just her being a bitch, this is standard ESE behavior I've received all my life. Never understand how an LII can receive these critiques and be like "wow you're right, thanks so much" and genuinely appreciate it. Fi is the good shit man, it's love. It's also hate but even that can be euphoric when shared with likeminded people. I don't think you're a robot, just a meanie head.
What type is Data then if not LII? He certainly isn't ILI.
And you need to stop drinking. Every time you get drunk, you log on here and start acting like an asshole. I throw my precious SLI love all over you, a rare commodity few receive, and you respond by calling me a fucking queer and spitting tobacco in my face. It's not right Policeman.
Behold everyone viewing this thread! This is what an SLI-LII Benefit relationship looks like! The SLI loves the LII unconditionally and the LII says fuck off! Textbook Benefit relations right here!!!
Lol. Ok, I'm sorry if I seem dismissive. Still, I'm not sure how to respond. I meant the religion thing half as a joke, if that wasn't clear. Which it may not have been, now that I'm reading with more sober eyes.
I'm not sure what type Data would be. No, I don't think he's ILI either. LII might be, but he's just a fictional character and intentionally limited in characterization, so I wouldn't read too much into him.
Re. ESEs, Fe is light and life for me, probably similar to how Fi is for you. ESEs who aren't my mother I don't see as bossy or controlling, which is probably because I'm better attuned to their expectations, and know how to respond if I'm not. I don't mean this in a bad way, but I tend to think of Alpha SFs similarly to children in a certain way (many Alpha SFs seem to have a similiar idea about Alpha NTs, so all is balanced!), and so their ideas appear to me as something to be playfully responded to rather than as some dark malefic force as xLIs seem to experience them, lol.
Fi people OTOH seem presumptuous and disregarding of the Fe social code of respect and nonintrusion into one's inner life.
As an Fi base, I consider this an accurate statement. For Fe, external impressions are sufficient to create camaraderie between people; but for Fi, we absolutely do want to evaluate the personal and intimate at depth and according to criteria that are not always consistent with an external standard. For base/suggestive Fi, the purpose of this is to maintain integrity between actions and values and limit the people we interact with to those who seek to do the same. Creative/mobilizing Fi (IEE-SLI) is less rigid, but for a person who does not value Fi, it can still seem very judgmental and intrusive.
Last edited by PinKDiGiT18; 01-09-2022 at 08:57 PM.
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