VI Tip

[vesstheastralsilky]

Visual Identification of type has less to do with physiological characteristics and more to do with HOW one animates the body. Therefore, the focus is on gestures, facial expressions, and general ambience and deportment, rather than simply and objectively comparing facial features in an inactive state. The latter is more subject to familial genetics than cognitive typology.

[Sol]

the focus is on intuitive impressions from nonverbal

[Desert Financial]

Best VI is through intuitive pattern recognition, ascertaining the "essence" of an individual's type.

I'm still working on building the patterns in my mind, but what I want to know is how others go about classifying each pattern. Is it a deductive process that proceeds from ascertaining the more generalized patterns of quadras? Even still, how do we classify the pattern of each quadra? It seems like an educated guess about how someone's mind works must be made. Differences in the process of classifying patterns can account for why disagreements happen.

[Shazaam]

Hmm. I think you are giving a 'how to tell lookalikes apart' guide more than anything; VI still comes out with inaction expression- but yeah you *really* see it when the person moves out in the world.

[andreasdevig]

Can I get typed in terms of Enneagram (especially in terms of the instinctual variants)? I'm so confused about these damn instincts.

[Sanguine Miasma]

Something I learned few days ago: ILE is basically a ragdoll with internal spring whose energy starts to dissipate during a discussion.

[andreasdevig]

Here are some basic patterns for the instinctual variants. There are many more details to this system, which are only circumstantially useful. For example, even though most descriptions of SX are focused on romantic relations, the same language can be used to describe the relation between an individual and their personal goals or passions.

SP: focus is on the self and the processes that regulate it; thus, may be attuned to personal well being, health, independence, personal thoughts and reflection. May desire security from the outside world more than most (both physical and mental). This variant desires detachment from the outside world more than others, and they may thus be hesitant to break the the structures that they have spent time creating.

SX: focus is on one-to-one relations and the processes that regulate them; thus, may be attuned to psychological distances between self and others, the "chemistry" of interpersonal relations, intimacy, and passions. This variant desires a deep personal connection to someone or something more than others. They feel empty without this connection, as if they are missing something from their life and so they long to find it.

SO: focus is on group relations and the processes that regulate them; thus, may be attuned to their place in a social hierarchy with a strong focus on the outside world. This variant desires to fit in to the groups and social structures that surround them, often forgoing personal desires to do so. Since their thought process is focused on the outside world, they are often high-achieving and well known among their circles, though type can certainly influence this.

It should be noted that type deeply affects the way variants manifest in the real world. For example, a type 1 SO will have both the SO desires and the type 1 desires, meaning that they may be determined to fix and perfect logical or moral systems in the outside world. Whereas a 3 SO would be the most socially conscious of the 3s, with a stronger desire to fit in than say SP 3s.

Thanks. I wrote a longer reply, but it got deleted.
I'm very confused about which instinctual stacking I am. Each of the three instincts seem to describe so many different things. Some of which I relate to, some I don't.

I've been thinking about posting a video to this forum, but I feel fairly certain that EII is my Socionics type (as I find both Se and Fe to be rather repulsive, so I don't think I'm SEI, IEI, or ESI). So I'd be more interested in Enneagram (especially the instinctual stacking).

[andreasdevig]

try to notice your proclivity towards being by yourself, being with small groups, and being with large groups.

I'm definitely SO-blindspot if looking at it from that perspective. (I thought pretty much all introverts hated large groups, though (?)).

[andreasdevig]

Not necessarily whether you like or dislike them but how about your position with respect to them. For example, many introverts want to climb the social ladder or obtain a position of power where they are the leader of the hierarchy regardless of who their subordinates are. These would be SO introverts. Think somebody like Hillary Clinton or that kid who always corrects the teacher - a clear introversion preference since they act less and focus more on their internal world, but there is a desire to integrate with the outer world and be a part of society. SP individuals are similar, but their desires are less about being a part of society and more about improving their own position. You can see it in their behaviour as well as their outlook on life.

The main characteristic of SO introverts is that there is a genuine caring and desire to integrate into large groups. They may dislike their introverted nature.

Now I'm confused again, haha. I really don't know. Yeah, I want to improve my position in the world, be (somewhat) famous, and remembered when I die. I want to help the world to evolve. And I don't want to be in a lower position in society. I dislike the idea of feeling like I'm inferior or subordinate to others. But I don't want to lead others either (at least not those who don't want to be lead), given how much I hate it when others do that to me. But I do sort of desire to be a leader of some kind (maybe some sort of artistic leader, like a band leader or movie director).
And terms like 'social climbing' or 'hierarchy' do sound repulsive and shallow to me. I want to treat everybody equally, no matter their 'status' in society.
I have a desire to be a part of society (at least in some ways) but also a desire to escape it.

I concern myself with the grander scheme of things too. I want to visit other planets and galaxies and dimensions (not sure if this an SO trait or not).
I'm very aware of my (perceived) place in the society (and it breaks my heart), but I don't think I have a desire to integrate into large groups, as you said, because this sounds like it would require an extroverted/outgoing personality, which I don't have in the least. Not sure if this is what you meant or not, but it's hard for me to separate the act of integrating into a large group and something something. I'm tired. Sorry. It hurts my brain to think about this stuff. It's so confusing to me. I guess I'll never figure it out. I want romance/intimacy/one-on-one connection(s), and I also want to be famous and help the world evolve and what not. And I also want to be alone (at least given the fact that I don't have anybody I'm connected/close to). I guess we are born alone and we die alone, so I guess I might as well get used to it.

[andreasdevig]

I have some ideas of how to respond, but I think we should move this to another thread so that others who have ideas can respond as well. Moreover, this conversation is irrelevant to this thread.

I suggest you create a thread either on "What's my type" or the enneagram subforum.

Okay. I posted it here...
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...73#post1303873

[Aramas]

Best VI is through intuitive pattern recognition, ascertaining the "essence" of an individual's type.

I'm still working on building the patterns in my mind, but what I want to know is how others go about classifying each pattern. Is it a deductive process that proceeds from ascertaining the more generalized patterns of quadras? Even still, how do we classify the pattern of each quadra? It seems like an educated guess about how someone's mind works must be made. Differences in the process of classifying patterns can account for why disagreements happen.

Thank you for not being an idiot.

[Desert Financial]

Thank you for not being an idiot.

I mean, it seems like perhaps the best method for building a classification system is to type yourself and then work out from there on some bases of self-awareness. But even in this process, things can get hairy because opposing quadras look quite different. But yeah, one way or another, the overall "essence" is what's really observed on the perceiving end of effective typing methods.

Tbh I wonder if decisive types are better at the perceiving end of things, especially Ni ego types - because the intuitive patterns build upon themselves with greater focus, rather than hopping around with Ne. Duality might also bring some clarity.

[Kiba]

Why something that is visual would be an intuitive process? That doesn't make any sense. An Intuitive Impression is a contradiction in Jung terms.

If you are using your senses then its a comparison of physical observable patterns (voice, intonation, body language, facial gestures, etc) . Its implicit in the name, Visual Identification, not Intuitive Identification.

Psychological characteristics are reflected in the body and other physical observable patterns, that's why VI is used in socionics and why body language was developed by psychology.

[Desert Financial]

Why something that is visual would be an intuitive process? That doesn't make any sense. An Intuitive Impression is a contradiction in Jung terms.

If you are using your senses then its a comparison of physical observable patterns (voice, intonation, body language, facial gestures, etc) . Its implicit in the name, Visual Identification, not Intuitive Identification.

Psychological characteristics are reflected in physics, that's why VI is used and why body language was developed by psychology.

The process is kind of like how intuitive patterns are detected from sensory input. For example, if you watch a cartoon, your mind fills in the blanks of what the characters look like in a more "realistic" sense. A drawing of Scooby Doo doesn't literally look like a Great Dane, but your mind fills in the blanks with what's expected, so you know what it's supposed to me. Or like how your mind creates optical illusions, such as seeing a cylinder in the picture below where there is no literal cylinder:



But I do think that without the sensory input, there would be no intuitive pattern to perceive. So the name "Visual Identification" still makes sense.

[Kiba]

Intuition is the ability to acquire knowledge without proof, evidence, or conscious reasoning, or without understanding how the knowledge was acquired.

Recognition of physical patterns in others is not intuition. Is the use of memory and 5 senses.
Just like you'd recognize and differentiate any other thing (your own shoes from others ppl shoes or a potato form an apple).

How do I know an A is an A? Well, because I know the sound of an A and I know its shape and its meaning. Hence, if someone says "the first letter of the abecedary", I'd answer A. VI is like being able to recognize the shape of an A or a B (in people) and differentiate them (in a more complex way ofc). Kids are unable to do that sometimes, because they still learning the basics. Just like most ppl in this forum.

The problem with socionics is that is non scientific. There is lack of consensus and data, hence a lot of mystification. VI ends up being like a game of "guess who" and in its worst days a witch hunt. Add that most in here know more about astrology and cards reading than psychology, so socionics ends up being treated just as other divinatory practice to find love than a psychological theory of personality.

In this case, I must agree that currently this forum practices VI as result of intuitive impressions.

[Aramas]

I mean, it seems like perhaps the best method for building a classification system is to type yourself and then work out from there on some bases of self-awareness. But even in this process, things can get hairy because opposing quadras look quite different. But yeah, one way or another, the overall "essence" is what's really observed on the perceiving end of effective typing methods.

Tbh I wonder if decisive types are better at the perceiving end of things, especially Ni ego types - because the intuitive patterns build upon themselves with greater focus, rather than hopping around with Ne. Duality might also bring some clarity.

They seem to be innately better at typing people, honestly. If Ne types work at it, they can become even better, though. Maybe it's because type is all about NiTi. You're trying to categorize psyches basically. I would expect NTs to be best at it, but it started with a Beta LSI dude, because Betas value both Ni and Ti.

He just couldn't get a very high resolution with it because he lacked some Ni. Aushra to the rescue on that one.

All the types can be good at some aspect of Socionics, just not typing specifically. Fi types can tell you a lot about the character of the types for example. That's why Stratiyevskaya is capable of long narrative cases of different types.

I would expect STs to be the best at VI by default, etc.

If you want internal psychodynamics plus character descriptions, INFs give you that.

Ethical types are more prone to type hopping because they don't see category boundaries very easily.

[vesstheastralsilky]

Recognition of physical patterns in others is not intuition. Is the use of memory and 5 senses.
Just like you'd recognize and differentiate any other thing (your own shoes from others ppl shoes or a potato form an apple).

How do I know an A is an A? Well, because I know the sound of an A and I know its shape and its meaning. Hence, if someone says "the first letter of the abecedary", I'd answer A. VI is like being able to recognize the shape of an A or a B (in people) and differentiate them (in a more complex way ofc). Kids are unable to do that sometimes, because they still learning the basics. Just like most ppl in this forum.

But the fixed intuitive template that lets Si memory recognition makes sense of impressions correlated to historical data ... is Ne. Ne focuses on new patterns including novelty and Si s memory of former patterns relied on a lot. This is because Ne is simply prefrontal cortex activity and Si is the corresponding Temporal Lobes. Smoke a lot of pot and the two start communicating more perceptual data as one relaxes. Of course, this is only based on observations as I don't do any drugs. ; )

[Kiba]

What I was trying to say is that I don't get why socionics (nonscientific) is used to explain brain functions (scientific) such as memory and pattern recognition that is related to neurons and tissues and even performed by animals (that doesnt have 16 types or personalities afaik), thats mistifying imo.

[Sanguine Miasma]

Wel, I can say that I'd like to have bit more temporal lobe access. It tends to be bit... scarce data-wise.

Anyways, if one put Ne pattern recognition without temporal lobe it wont help you to see visual patterns.

I really like how DarkAngelFireWolf69 put it:

Functional state I - intuition of possibilities

In a thought relation, intuition I is the extraction of information from the subconscious. The subconscious pantry of information of a person by volume is equal to the external world, therefore the intuition of possibilities is the most intellectual of the functions of thinking. In state I, a person descends below the line of consciousness and draws from the depths of his intellect the answers to paradoxical questions before which logic is powerless. Technologically intuitive thinking I is an operation with visual images. Vague pictures, extracted from the subconscious, are synthesized into a complex complex, which, denser, lights up at some instant with a bright flash of light - an intuitive guess. In a person who thinks in the I-method, the eyes freeze at an average level, and the pupils dilate. The view becomes unfocused.

If the state I keeps a long time, then in society he will take the role of an intellectual leader - the generator of ideas. I-type shows increased intellectual activity, aspires to new and complex tasks. The generator of ideas with great difficulty is given the standard, routine operations. All his strength he gives to get rid of them, inventing new approaches. A person in state I does not care much about people's opinion about his proposals and projects. Making an opening, he satisfies his cognitive curiosity.

Psychologically, in the state I the person experiences feelings connected with immersion in himself, external detachment with strong inner concentration. This condition is reminiscent of the psychological effect of the breakthrough of the dam. The first stage of the intuitive process is accompanied by a painful sense of dissatisfaction: a person does not find a place for himself, bearing the idea. The idea seems to be maturing in itself, but in this slow process it is necessary to intervene so that the images that are needed come out of the subconscious. Then the intellectual tension abruptly, abruptly gives way to relief and joy - the idea was finally born.

At the physical level, state I turns you into a person of non-standard behavior. Very expressive is the face: a frozen, defocused look, strained muscles around the eyes, shifted to the bridge of the eyebrows form vertical folds on the forehead. The body freezes in the pose in which you were caught by an intuitive thought. Movements freeze, static is established. This continues until the moment of insight, after which the statics suddenly give way to violent emotional dynamics. A strong physical stimulator of state I is the sensation of swimming-immersion in water or weightlessness.

See rest of them here http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1251535. It has tips for VI for all the functions. This describes me bit too accurately.