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    Default Are certain types more suitable to live as male or female?

    Do you think certain types are more suitable to live as male or female?

    To live in terms of society and masculinity/femininity, besides biological life.
    Last edited by Kiba; 09-26-2018 at 07:23 PM.

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    Are you asking if certain personality types are more masculine or more feminine?

    Yes.

    Here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-by-E-Filatova

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Are you asking if certain personality types are more masculine or more feminine?

    Yes.
    I know certain types being more masculine/feminine according standards, but I want to know if ppl think that certain types are more suitable for one or other sex in terms of life conditions (comfort, work, relations, biology etc). In other words, if its easier to live as an LIE male (for example) than a LIE woman in society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aki View Post
    I know certain types being more masculine/feminine according standards, but I want to know if ppl think that certain types are more suitable for one or other sex in terms of life conditions (comfort, work, relations, biology etc). In other words, if its easier to live as an LIE male (for example) than a LIE woman.
    Excluding social standards, why would it be?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avebury View Post
    Excluding social standards, why would it be?
    I asked in society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aki View Post
    I asked in society.
    Ok but I don't understand what you're asking.

    Can you give an example of why it would be easier to be an LIE male than LIE female for example, barring social expectations?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aki View Post
    I know certain types being more masculine/feminine according standards, but I want to know if ppl think that certain types are more suitable for one or other sex in terms of life conditions (comfort, work, relations, biology etc). In other words, if its easier to live as an LIE male (for example) than a LIE woman in society.
    Yes, it is easier to live as an LIE male than an LIE female.

    Because, you know, expectations are everything.

    I know two LIE females, and in them, normal LIE behavior is interpreted as being very un-feminine. They are no-nonsense, take no prisoners, business bitches. One ran a division of GE and the other runs a hotel. We get along great, incidentally.

    I can't ethically post either of these women's pictures, but think Helena Christensen. She has a certain appeal, but she's not exactly the image of soft femininity.

    Here is a short film where LIE Christensen meets a male ESI (who actually looks like an ESI buddy of mine):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eWsWicnBt4
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 09-26-2018 at 08:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Yes, it is easier to live as an LIE male than an LIE female.

    Because, you know, expectations are everything.

    I know two LIE females, and in them, normal LIE behavior is interpreted as being very un-feminine. They are no-nonsense, take no prisoners, business bitches. We get along great, incidentally.
    Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aki View Post
    In other words, if its easier to live as an LIE male (for example) than a LIE woman in society.
    My moms an LIE and frankly I think life would have been much less rough for her had she been a male. I get the impression she was discouraged (if not punished) for just being herself, which created a maelstrom of emotional insecurities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Moderator View Post
    My moms an LIE and frankly I think life would have been much less rough for her had she been a male. I get the impression she was discouraged (if not punished) for just being herself, which created a maelstrom of emotional insecurities.
    yeah, it happens to me often. Not sure about the existence or extent of emotional insecurities in myself due it, though. Probably I'm just shameless.

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    No. Just different types are considered more masculine or feminine by society's standards. Which is stupid, since to my knowledge type distribution is unrelated to sex.

    But I'll have further data on this topic once my survey is done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aki View Post
    Do you think certain types are more suitable to live as male or female?

    To live in terms of society and masculinity/femininity, besides biological life.
    Yes

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    Today, I looked around and I played "count the alphas!"... this alpha SF environment is killing me. A few betas NF, a few deltas may make it bearable... but being ILI there is like having been born wrong...
    I spent my life feeling out of place and wrong around women... I feel like a clueless dude most days, but being actually female and having grown up around females, I find it difficult to be around men. I ended up stranded somewhere in the middle for trying to "adapt to feminity", or whatever.
    I think female gamma NTs have it tough... can't talk for other types.

    It's why I come to this forum, met people alike me who live alright without denaturing themselves.
    Last edited by Vespertine; 09-26-2018 at 08:24 PM. Reason: Trying to be nicer.

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    I've noticed that being a certain type tends to change physiological characteristics towards a certain gender. Male LIEs will be pretty masculine for example, while female LIEs will be more masculine than the norm. And I don't mean just behavior, but also bodily characteristics.

    I recently became aware of an LIE girl who is lesbian. She had one hell of a chin.

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    I think there would be some trends but nothing definitive. It would be largely based around whatever society you're living in, and whatever stereotypes apply to both genders, or to certain sexualities.

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    None.

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    Probably gender stereotypes and norms encourage certain IMs as more pleasing or acceptable in men or women depending on the culture. That is why it seems to me if you are authentically you will in some way be radical and a role model for others and break stereotypes because no one is just one thing, we all have all IE's at our disposal and need examples of men and women who use them successfully in their own ways.

    I like, for example, Jeanne Moreau (SLE), whose roles in films were not stereotypical of women ie. she had two lovers, an affair, a romance in her 60's with a younger man on screen etc. It's really cool she embraced who she was (and directors at the time did too) and so expanded the notion of what it means to be feminine.

    What do you think Aki since you raised the topic?

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    masculinity/femininity follows from biological and inborn inclinations mostly

    There are common social roles (in big degree historically inspired, preindustrial times were different), the common behavior for people according to their sexes. They mb associate with some types traits.
    Types as INF* and EST* are on the sides of women and men traits in common today stereotypes. So the closer a man or a woman is to the type of other side - they more they may feel themselves as lesser fiting to norms. But I doubt the most of people care much about this types factor, as the understanding they are attractive for opposite sex is more important. When people feel as loved or liked - they would not think significantly about how they fit to sexes norms, as mostly they are important to be attractive. With the lack of this feeling they may doubt higher about own types traits relating to common sexes roles.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    No. One of the limitations of MBTI seemed to originate from preconceived notions of masculine and feminine traits (elements?) permeating cognitive processes, and Socionics, so far, does little to eradicate this bias. F and N need to be viewed as qualitative rationalization and data acquisition processes whereas T and S defined as quantitative. The current models still seem to suffer from remnants of the original flawed approach, which cannot be described as scientific.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Filatova's perception of socionics gender roles:

    Most to least masculine types:
    +3: SLE, LSI, LIE, LSE, SLI

    +2: ESI, LII, SEE
    +1: ILE, ESE
    =0: ILI
    -1: SEI
    -2: EIE, EII, IEE
    -3: IEI

    Most to least feminine types:
    +3: SEI, ESE, IEI, EIE, SEE, EII, IEE
    +2: ESI
    +1:
    =0: LSI, ILI, LSE, SLI
    -1: ILE, LII, SLE, LIE
    -2:
    -3:

    *If life gets easier the more one adheres to their respective gender role, and Fivatola is correct, then females find some ease in being the most feminine types and males find some ease in being the most masculine.

    However, I'm not convinced that todays gender roles are strictly enforced enough to validate the *initial premise 100%. I'd wager, instead, that society has too broad range of expectations to validate the conclusion. Ie. I'm not convinced that female IEIs necessarily have it easier than females with a bit more well-rounded traits. Similarly, I'm not convinced that SLEs have it easier than males with a bit more well-rounded traits.

    Instead, I'd argue that gender roles play a part in how easy life is, but the types that strike a little more of a balance have it easier overall because they have some traits to adapt to curve-ball expectations. Maybe SEE is a good example of a type that could adapt to various circumstances more readily.

    And, as a caveat, many other factors, such as socio-economic, social, and physical factors, play into how easy it is to be one gender or another.

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    @A Moderator Non-uniform distributions (seemingly in Filatova's gender roles that you presented) tend to indicate inconsistencies - perhaps in definitions or IE classifications, which should warrant a full reassessment of the proposition.

    Note that I've known female SLEs, LSIs, LIEs, LSEs and SLIs who have done very well for themselves so I wonder whether or not your mother had bad luck over her lifetime because I doubt that her insecurities were directly caused by her so-called 'masculine' type. Even today, a majority of females have huge barriers to personal success and fulfillment simply because most societies are patriarchal.......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post

    Note that I've known female SLEs, LSIs, LIEs, LSEs and SLIs who have done very well for themselves so I wonder whether or not your mother had bad luck over her lifetime because I doubt that her insecurities were directly caused by her so-called 'masculine' type. Even today, a majority of females have huge barriers to personal success and fulfillment simply because most societies are patriarchal.......

    a.k.a. I/O
    It's a mixed bag, concerning her, but I agree with your overall assessment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Moderator View Post
    Filatova's perception of socionics gender roles:

    Most to least masculine types:
    +3: SLE, LSI, LIE, LSE, SLI

    +2: ESI, LII, SEE
    +1: ILE, ESE
    =0: ILI
    -1: SEI
    -2: EIE, EII, IEE
    -3: IEI

    Most to least feminine types:
    +3: SEI, ESE, IEI, EIE, SEE, EII, IEE
    +2: ESI
    +1:
    =0: LSI, ILI, LSE, SLI
    -1: ILE, LII, SLE, LIE
    -2:
    -3:

    *If life gets easier the more one adheres to their respective gender role, and Fivatola is correct, then females find some ease in being the most feminine types and males find some ease in being the most masculine.

    However, I'm not convinced that todays gender roles are strictly enforced enough to validate the *initial premise 100%. I'd wager, instead, that society has too broad range of expectations to validate the conclusion. Ie. I'm not convinced that female IEIs necessarily have it easier than females with a bit more well-rounded traits. Similarly, I'm not convinced that SLEs have it easier than males with a bit more well-rounded traits.

    Instead, I'd argue that gender roles play a part in how easy life is, but the types that strike a little more of a balance have it easier overall because they have some traits to adapt to curve-ball expectations. Maybe SEE is a good example of a type that could adapt to various circumstances more readily.

    And, as a caveat, many other factors, such as socio-economic, social, and physical factors, play into how easy it is to be one gender or another.
    And here is DarkAngelFireWolf69's list: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ups-by-DarkAngelFireWolf69

    Most feminine: EII, EIE, SEE, SEI
    Most Masculine: SLE, SLI, LII, LIE

    Somewhere between (feminine to masculine transition): LSE, LSI, ILI, ILE
    Somewhere between (masculine to feminine transition): IEI, IEE, ESE, ESI

    LOL, I don't personally see huge need to fit in according to gender guidelines. I just happen to be a male.
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    I’m one of the feminine types per Socionics, and in reality I am told I’m feminine.

    There are certainly times when I have been able to use that to my advantage.

    Yet I have found I don’t relate to what a lot of women and girls do and say. It’s like observing creatures from another planet.

    Since I already feel alienated in this way, I’d rather just be a T type, really.
    LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”

    Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”

    LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by golden View Post
    I’m one of the feminine types per Socionics, and in reality I am told I’m feminine.

    There are certainly times when I have been able to use that to my advantage.

    Yet I have found I don’t relate to what a lot of women and girls do and say. It’s like observing creatures from another planet.

    Since I already feel alienated in this way, I’d rather just be a T type, really.
    I can't say I envy beta NFs. It seems like they struggle just existing, living in a world of ineffable abstraction that's hard enough to vocalize as it is without the added inclination toward tact and diplomacy.

    Honestly, though, there's no reason to trade yourself for someone else. Just own it.

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    the trick is to give up the inclination toward tact and diplomacy

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    LII is a more masculine type despite having -PoLR. That's interessting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    LII is a more masculine type despite having -PoLR. That's interessting.
    Masculine cannot really be framed in a cognitive sense; it's related to animalistic instincts that cognition tries to keep under control or suppress entirely. Maleness is really a biological state in which the primary imperative is to fight for the right to impregnate females. For clarity, cognitive processes should be treated separately from all biological functioning; they can be superimposed later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Masculine cannot really be framed in a cognitive sense; it's related to animalistic instincts that cognition tries to keep under control or suppress entirely. Maleness is really a biological state in which the primary imperative is to fight for the right to impregnate females. For clarity, cognitive processes should be treated separately from all biological functioning; they can be superimposed later.

    a.k.a. I/O
    Ha! Masculinity is due to testosterone. That stuff changes brain function and hence cognition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Ha! Masculinity is due to testosterone. That stuff changes brain function and hence cognition.
    Testosterone changes one's preoccupations or focus, not the way the information regarding the preoccupations or focus is processed. One has to also separate brain function from information processing - like separating apps from CPU function.....

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Testosterone changes one's preoccupations or focus, not the way the information regarding the preoccupations or focus is processed. One has to also separate brain function from information processing - like separating apps from CPU function.....

    a.k.a. I/O
    Absolutley.

    This summer I had a chance to work in very close proximity to a transman. He was on one of my crews. It is my opinion that although he has the looks, the demeanour, and the mental and emotional conviction of a man, he still processes reality like a woman. I'm sorry if anyone disagrees and I fully support the move, even in terms of a medical intervention, in order to change genders.

    I just don't think that testosterone alone, as you say, changes the way information is processed. To many countless thousands of moments growing up in which the processing occurs and you can't mold the adult brain to instantly change neurone firing because you'r pumped full of a sex hormone and you cut your tits off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Ha! Masculinity is due to testosterone. That stuff changes brain function and hence cognition.
    Changes it a little bit yeah. Not huge earth shattering changes. I would know as I used trenbolone before, the most powerful anabolic there is, so, I observed closely how my cognition functioned (I always do, like a movie).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Masculine cannot really be framed in a cognitive sense.
    Maybe, maybe not.
    Medical scientists have shown that the neurons in the brains of males and females are connected in a different way. My opinion is that different neuronal connections in the brain leads to different forms of cognition.
    The level of the hormones Estrogene and Testosterone in the blood have also effects on the brain function. Studies showed this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    Maybe, maybe not.
    Medical scientists have shown that the neurons in the brains of males and females are connected in a different way. My opinion is that different neuronal connections in the brain leads to different forms of cognition.
    The level of the hormones Estrogene and Testosterone in the blood have also effects on the brain function. Studies showed this.
    The brains may be wired differently but they likely run the same apps (type structures). In my view, the female N, S, F and T is defined the same as that of a male and the biological (machine) influences should be modeled separately from fundamental cognitive structures....

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    In my view, the female N, S, F and T is defined the same as that of a male and the biological (machine) influences should be modeled separately from fundamental cognitive structures....
    The cognitive functions are (original) definitions by C.G. Jung. I don't know if he has definded the functions based on his perceptions of persons of which gender.
    Maybe you know more about it.
    There must be a reason why more women are ethical types and more men are logical types.

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    Well aren't we just a happy family?

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Moderator View Post
    Well aren't we just a happy family?
    So. Happy.
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    Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aki View Post
    Do you think certain types are more suitable to live as male or female?

    To live in terms of society and masculinity/femininity, besides biological life.
    Masculinity: T
    Femininity: F

    All other dichotomies are unisex

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    ISTp SLI-0,1Te sxsp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guillaine View Post
    What do you think Aki since you raised the topic?
    I don't have any particular opinion about it yet, though, I suspect some personality types fit more naturally to one or another gender, and this not just due societal expectations necessarily. I think some male/female brain differences could point more to one or another type too. Maybe its about hormones.

    When its about societal expectations, I feel like I don't fit well with the ethical expectations obviously, i.e. women should be talkative, be more open, express their emotions and feelings, simile a lot, be pleasant, be nice, say nice things, etc etc. But its not like I care most of the times either, honestly. I care more if it affects life quality and how one feels about one's self and life than what others think.

    Sometimes I think that my type fits more naturally to males. But to be honest, maybe life is not easier for SLIs males either, maybe SLI males feel also too lazy, too umotivated, too uncompromising, not aggressive or ambitious enough etc, who knows. I don't know their levels of satisfaction or life quality.

    I also read somewhere that duality was "easier" if the male was SLI and the female IEE than the opposite because types fitted naturally male and female qualities respectively. What do you think about it?
    Last edited by Kiba; 09-30-2018 at 03:49 AM.

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