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Thread: Duals feel unreachable?

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    Tigerfadder's Avatar
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    Default Duals feel unreachable?

    This is a bit generic... I find that duals feels a bit scary but most of all unreachable. Like you can not really get a grasp of them but they are definitely there and the relationship seem to be overall positive. There is a similarity towards semi-dual for example but not quite like it. Mirage too but not quite like it. All the other relations outside those are not quite like it?

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    Unreachable is the right word, I think.

    Forcing interaction with duals just because you know you are duals won't work. It will blow up in your face. Like an experiment gone wrong.

    It takes a bit of luck. Being in the right place at the right time. I remember Gulenko in one of his videos saying that in order for duality to work, you both need to have a particular problem you need solved. Your dual can solve your problems, but you have to be in a situation where they can solve your problems, and vice versa. Then they start to grow on you, he says.


     





    Last edited by Uncle Ave; 09-22-2018 at 09:00 PM.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Yes duality, semi and mirage have all similar feeling about them. But only duality is duality of course.

    Duals find each other all the time so I dont think its right to say that they are unreachable in general. But subtype matters. This is not a problem for normal people who know nothing about type and choose their partner by instinct. They ignore lots of duals and go for the compatible dual

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    Dammit, @Tallmo, I went by my "feels" and married my Supervisor-Father.

    *EDIT*
    Actually, I agree with you about subtype feels. If you talk with a dual of the right subtype long enough, you can tell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Yes duality, semi and mirage have all similar feeling about them. But only duality is duality of course.

    Duals find each other all the time so I dont think its right to say that they are unreachable in general. But subtype matters. This is not a problem for normal people who know nothing about type and choose their partner by instinct. They ignore lots of duals and go for the compatible dual
    well than which one of your subtype-dual make what feeling to you?

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    Sometimes. But most of the time I find they are very accessible, especially if you know what you're doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Sometimes. But most of the time I find they are very accessible, especially if you know what you're doing.
    Hey I wanted to ask you if you don't mind saying, I remember you said you were seeing a dual and it was going pretty well. I was curious as to your instinct stackings the both of you as it seems to be significant in compatibility.

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    How do you know if somebody's your dual? Oftentimes I feel like I know people but then they turn around and they feel like someone else.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    well than which one of your subtype-dual make what feeling to you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Dammit, @Tallmo, I went by my "feels" and married my Supervisor-Father.

    *EDIT*
    Actually, I agree with you about subtype feels. If you talk with a dual of the right subtype long enough, you can tell.
    I guess I'm just saying that Socionics covers ONE factor of compatibility (and it does it extremely accurately). But we sort of forget this and get used to thinking that actual people who are duals should always be compatible without controlling other factors also (subtype, enneagram etc.) People of all types can feel unreachable to you: duals, identicals etc.

    So the idea that duals can be unreachable or that duality is "difficult" can - at least in part - be explained by this.

    This is also a reason why some people think Socionics is bullshit.

    When ordinary people find a dual, it is usually a dual that is actually compatible (otherwise it wouldnt happen). They never experience the problem of "unreachable" duals.

    In other words: Duality in itself is not enough.

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    @Tallmo I strongly disagree with your reasoning.

    Reachability is not the same thing compatibility, if people find duals unreachable it is because they live in different worlds to begin with. They are in different clubs and usually have different centers of interest.

    Also, it's possible extroverts find their introverted duals more unreachable, while the reverse is not true. But I'm not sure.

    Not saying that subtype and enneagram stacking don't come into play when it comes to compatibility, but you're assuming that by unreachable means incompatible, and that is not the case.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avebury View Post
    @Tallmo I strongly disagree with your reasoning.

    Reachability is not the same thing compatibility, if people find duals unreachable it is because they live in different worlds to begin with. They are in different clubs and usually have different centers of interest.

    Also, it's possible extroverts find their introverted duals more unreachable, while the reverse is not true. But I'm not sure.

    Not saying that subtype and enneagram stacking don't come into play when it comes to compatibility, but you're assuming that by unreachable means incompatible, and that is not the case.
    Still, if you meet a dual of the wrong subtype and enneagram you are probably gonna find them unreachable, at least that's my experience. So I think my reasoning has it's place here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Still, if you meet a dual of the wrong subtype and enneagram you are probably gonna find them unreachable, at least that's my experience. So I think my reasoning has it's place here.
    Ah. I guess experience is where we differ then.

    Personally, when it comes to DCNH for example, Dominant subtype is the easiest to reach, but also one of the most problematic in close relations.

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    I think reachability and compatibility can be the opposite ends of the spectrum in the sense that, and possibly the op was meaning this, it's like the most compatibility I go into stunned/frozen mode and cannot for the life of me find a way to enter their world which seems like such a distant place (though I know in theory from socionics that they are compatible the feeling I had was the same without knowing socionics), because I have never been psychologically close to such a person. I know it would be easy (or easier than most relations) once the wheels got turning but to get them in motion seems like having to make snow or something, it's bewildering- but I guess that reachability could be said to be your own reachability to your true nature and acceptance of such. That in itself can be challenging if you often self-sabotage and mistrust your instincts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guillaine View Post
    Hey I wanted to ask you if you don't mind saying, I remember you said you were seeing a dual and it was going pretty well. I was curious as to your instinct stackings the both of you as it seems to be significant in compatibility.
    Romantically? No...I don't recall having said anything like that.

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    Yeah, I find my dual somewhat intimidating to talk to, and I don't know how to get started...it helps a lot when they just do something, like...try to provoke some Fe out of me. Do something to lift my mood, even something super small...Actually sometimes they don't even have to do anything for me, they just have to look at me in a way that shows they're wanting to be appreciated. Then I can smile at them, and it seems to get the ball rolling. Either way is good.

    On the second thought, maybe the same thing could apply to me in seeking out the ILE's Ti. Like, talking about interesting theories and asking him to explain them further? I think that's worked before, now that I'm remembering...

    Well, the creative function is the one that you use most often to reach out to people. Sometimes people don't enjoy just having it pushed on them, though, even your dual...so it's best to ask for what the other person has to offer, than to start right off the bat giving them your ego functions. At least, that's my theory.

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    Normalizing SEI's (roughly some sort of pseudo ESI's) start to become very unattractive after certain amount of interaction. Mainly due to their wanting to control their territory while I can see other upsides of them but that particular quality is total turn off just like it is with many other normalizing types.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Romantically? No...I don't recall having said anything like that.
    Oh OKay, sorry! I must be remembering wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaiviay View Post
    Yeah, I find my dual somewhat intimidating to talk to, and I don't know how to get started...it helps a lot when they just do something, like...try to provoke some Fe out of me. Do something to lift my mood, even something super small...Actually sometimes they don't even have to do anything for me, they just have to look at me in a way that shows they're wanting to be appreciated. Then I can smile at them, and it seems to get the ball rolling. Either way is good.

    On the second thought, maybe the same thing could apply to me in seeking out the ILE's Ti. Like, talking about interesting theories and asking him to explain them further? I think that's worked before, now that I'm remembering...

    Well, the creative function is the one that you use most often to reach out to people. Sometimes people don't enjoy just having it pushed on them, though, even your dual...so it's best to ask for what the other person has to offer, than to start right off the bat giving them your ego functions. At least, that's my theory.
    About giving your ego functions, particularly the base, this is a bit of topic but sometimes I think I suppress my base to some degree. Not sure if everyone does or if it's due to upbringing. Do we suppress it so that we can fit in a bit easier? I noticed if I have a couple of drinks my base is much more obvious lol! That's what made me think I am suppressing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guillaine View Post
    About giving your ego functions, particularly the base, this is a bit of topic but sometimes I think I suppress my base to some degree. Not sure if everyone does or if it's due to upbringing. Do we suppress it so that we can fit in a bit easier? I noticed if I have a couple of drinks my base is much more obvious lol! That's what made me think I am suppressing it.
    Yes I think this is possible, and I worry sometimes that I'm doing the same thing. Gah xD

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    just call 1-800-16T-DUAL for a good time. That is how I found my dual All major credit cards are welcome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebula View Post
    just call 1-800-16T-DUAL for a good time. That is how I found my dual All major credit cards are welcome.
    I wish something like this were the case IRL. It would make life a lot simpler.

    I actually think there is a business opportunity here, but the data collection to make it work is daunting and the factors for attraction and LTR's are still a bit unclear.
    I mean, we have sociotype and instinct stack and imago. How should we weigh these factors against each other and against the social factors, like work and living preferences, enneagram, maturity levels and mental health status? This is the crux of the problem.

    Where is the which of the what-we-want?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I wish something like this were the case IRL. It would make life a lot simpler.

    I actually think there is a business opportunity here, but the data collection to make it work is daunting and the factors for attraction and LTR's are still a bit unclear.
    I mean, we have sociotype and instinct stack and imago. How should we weigh these factors against each other and against the social factors, like work and living preferences, enneagram, maturity levels and mental health status? This is the crux of the problem.

    Where is the which of the what-we-want?
    Some complex alogorithm could be programmed to do the matching, in fact such things already exist: there was a French tv show where they paired random people together to form couples and marry based on "science". This often did not work out for the couples after a few days. The problem is they would try to match people by similarities which is the opposite of the socionics philosophy: complements are best and you tend to overlook what's best for you when you focus on similarities. All of modern psychology assumes that compatibility is about similarity "people who have things in common get along better".

    I think the real crux of the problem though, if we bring socionics and even stackings into this, is how do we diagnose types correctly? Currently no two schools of socionics seem to agree on the same typings. Either socionics is a joke, or there is potential to make it work for people, but in order for it to work for people, you have to diagnose types correctly. I'm just not sure we can do that with accuracy. In fact, I'm pretty sure with our current knowledge of things, we can't. Not saying a door won't open in the future, but now I just don't see a way through this wall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    Like you can not really get a grasp of them but they are definitely there and the relationship seem to be overall positive.
    duals differ strongly as types - you may need to adopt to them, study to deal with them
    this adoptation should not be long or hard, in general. when both people are interested in the relations
    if you _often_ get the other - mb those are not your duals. you talk like F type, but not ILE in your profile
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    This is a bit generic... I find that duals feels a bit scary but most of all unreachable. Like you can not really get a grasp of them but they are definitely there and the relationship seem to be overall positive. There is a similarity towards semi-dual for example but not quite like it. Mirage too but not quite like it. All the other relations outside those are not quite like it?
    It's one of those things that has to happen on its own. Just be yourself and stop worrying about other people.

    Yes, it is a numbers game, but not one you win through trying.

    Being yourself is harder than you think. You have to figure out how you've warped yourself over years and decades to conform to the desires of others. Then you have to un-warp yourself and get rid of everything that's not you.

    Duality is a lot easier then.
    Last edited by Aramas; 09-24-2018 at 03:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I mean, we have sociotype and instinct stack and imago. How should we weigh these factors against each other and against the social factors, like work and living preferences, enneagram, maturity levels and mental health status? This is the crux of the problem.
    The "crux of the problem" is to reduce own egocentrism and then accept an imperfect woman "as is", to love, to care about her so she felt happy, to do own efforts for good relations.
    The more good factors - the easier this do. The good IR (duality, semiduality, activation) is a huge help, as there your efforts get the return you need. For other factors it's enough of common ones like sexual attraction, relatively smart. And to communicate IRL for some time (< 1 year) to understand better the general situation with the love feelings, friendly feelings and other. This is enough to find good pair with good possibility.

    If you'd typed lesser of random pretty women to your duals and allowed yourself to love deeply you'd had more chance to find the relations you'd liked. The approach for the more conscious factors (enneagram, her work, etc) is unreasonable and what you are potentially geting - the lesser need in your own efforts in the relations. While you do not need easier situation to get good relations and love feelings, you are strong enough and just lose your time on the life you do not like.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    People are mistaken in thinking that duality doesn't take long. It often might take years to manifest. If not longer.

    It's easier if you were born in a favorable environment. Not everyone gets that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    It's one of those things that has to happen on its own. Just be yourself and stop worrying about other people.

    Yes, it is a numbers game, but not one you win through trying.

    Being yourself is harder than you think. You have to figure out how you've warped yourself over years and decades to conform to the desires of others. Then you have to un-warp yourself and get rid of everything that's not you.

    Duality is a lot easier then.
    I think this is exactly right. peolpe contort themselves into a tortured image of something theyre not because they've been painfully conditioned by their environment to conform.. thus finding your missing half becomes hard because your true self is distorted and broken.. duals hurt eachother on their jagged edges.. but in my experience just knowing that there exist people who want you for what you really are is the first step to healing those mutilations and over time it may make it so the two harmoniously come together.. but its not a given anyone is going to find such an "unhealthy" person immediately perfect with everything falling into place. this is why growing up with duals makes it easier, because such mutilations of the soul never occur, or occur less, or protect you from them to some extent, in the first place. so there's less edges to smooth out later on once you do encounter a dual in a romantic context. I think this is what participation awards and emphasis on self esteem are kind of aiming at, but they lack psychological depth, so they become techniques that just injure a different set of people rather than genuinely being the solution for all

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    I think this is exactly right. peolpe contort themselves into a tortured image of something theyre not because they've been painfully conditioned by their environment to conform.. thus finding your missing half becomes hard because your true self is distorted and broken.. duals hurt eachother on their jagged edges.. but in my experience just knowing that there exist people who want you for what you really are is the first step to healing those mutilations and over time it may make it so the two harmoniously come together.. but its not a given anyone is going to find such an "unhealthy" person immediately perfect with everything falling into place. this is why growing up with duals makes it easier, because such mutilations of the soul never occur, or occur less, or protect you from them to some extent, in the first place. so there's less edges to smooth out later on once you do encounter a dual in a romantic context. I think this is what participation awards and emphasis on self esteem are kind of aiming at, but they lack psychological depth, so they become techniques that just injure a different set of people rather than genuinely being the solution for all
    What's terrible is that there's so much advice out there that will tell you to be anything but yourself. You have to be kind! You have to be nice! You have to be altruistic! Be less selfish! Be this, be that, etc. But if that's not who you are, it won't work for you.

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    yeah I think a lot of that is kindness has to be interpreted as something more than a cliched pattern of behavior. one has to find what really is kind in a universal sense, otherwise what is kind is not really kind at all, at least not for everyone. thus "kind" becomes a buzzword where no one really knows what it means because it purports itself as universally good but as-applied does harm, which is not to say that kindness can never "cause harm", because sometimes that is precisely what is called for and is most kind, the problem is people don't understand that dynamic for what it is and instead it becomes a blanket injunction to act a certain way, and if people don't act that way we're justified in punishing them as evil... but they weren't acting unkind in the first place, they simply violated a meaningless norm. these behavioral patterns that get built into words and then lorded over people loses sight of the spirit of kindness itself. eventually kindness becomes whatever the powers that be determine it to be without room for objection or improvement and anyone who does not toe the line is punished accordingly. that genuine human kindness left the building long ago is lost on everyone and what we end up with is a society of blind rule followers and the rules themselves don't even make sense. this gives rise to manipulations of all sorts once people realize they can be as truly evil as they please as long as they can maintain the appearance of the norm...

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    Being yourself has a great consolation prize if you never find duality: at least you'll have yourself. Most people never even have that. They live shit lives and aren't even aware of their own suffering.

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    yes I think this is how the God concept justifies itself, it becomes the other that vis-a-vis you can find your true self. of course now its been corrupted beyond belief, but the idea is if you had an internal compass that had superordinate metaphysical and moral import, your individuality is inoculated against the kind of mass-conditioning that reduces individuals to mere cogs in machines. When God got co-opted by the mass machinery it meant the word "God" could no longer meaningfully be used, but whether you use that word or a different one, the idea is one needs to be grounded in one's own guiding principle in the last analysis.. that principle can be extroverted, but one still has to be true "to their God" or "to themselves"if you prefer, in order to not undermine themselves at the very root. these religious institutions that serve to force a particular attitude on their followers as a matter of morality, or governments, as a matter of economics, undercut their own congregations or citizens, in the end. you can resist these institutions and it may bring conflict or violence, but one will have at least not lost the fight right at the start by being cut off at the very root of themselves... this is how even conflict and violence can be better than peace, if peace requires one give up one's very soul.. what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?

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    The superego is a tricky beast. People say to themselves, "I have to X..." so long that they say to themselves, "I like X." Even though they don't really, and if they truly paid attention to themselves, they'd quickly learn that they didn't like it. But people are browbeaten into doing what others want.

    It's interesting to see how people push their superegos on others, too, not even because it benefits them, but just to make others feel suffering just like they do, or because they feel they have to.

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    yeah imagine having a Te Si super ego in a materialistic world where the measure of a man is how well he provides for his family

    parents, having thoroughly imbibed this cultural norm, are precisely why my parents hate me, because I'm a failure by this standard

    it takes a long time for children I think to disabuse themselves of this being "real" when its basically the familial drama that traps people their entire life. a person can just let it go though with sufficient willpower and understanding

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    yeah imagine having a Te Si super ego in a materialistic world where the measure of a man is how well he provides for his family

    parents, having thoroughly imbibed this cultural norm, are precisely why my parents hate me, because I'm a failure by this standard

    it takes a long time for children I think to disabuse themselves of this being "real" when its basically the familial drama that traps people their entire life. a person can just let it go though with sufficient willpower and understanding
    Precisely what all the true mystics have been saying for a long time. No one has to do anything. "The word of sin is restriction."

  35. #35

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    Instead of thinking duality as happening between personlities, you need to think of it as happening between information elements.

    This will solve your problem.

    Get familiar and comfortable with your dual information: listen to it, expose yourself to environments where its happening and so on.

    Then trust it will happen or not and get out of the time crunch.

    Also, this stuff is not real. Haha!!!!!!!!!

  36. #36
    a two horned unicorn renegade Heretic 007's Avatar
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    Let's turn that shirt inside out and we are good to go.
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
    I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member.


    Due to Fi PoLR do not send PM's, please. 50/50 likelihood to get a reply if I'm going to even read your messages. Let's keep things public.

  37. #37
    Guillaine's Avatar
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    The one IEE that I know who comes straight out with very friendly and funny Ne Fi is a lady my mum's age who married a dual young. I used to think she was kind but ditzy but now I admire her for just being her, it has obviously worked for her she has raised 4 happy children etc, still happily married to a surgeon. I know she came from a happy home life and her father in particular was a loving and wrote to all his kids these beautiful weekly letters after they moved out of home. When he died the kids published all the letters in a book. Just goes to show they probably had good IR and love too, which allowed her to be herself without questioning it and attract a dual. It's really cool.

  38. #38
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    Duals are Bs

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    People can be unreachable on so many levels and for so many reasons that type won't often show up on the radar. Type shouldn't be used as a measure of potential relationship success but rather as an indicator of perspective and cognitive direction, and perhaps whether or not these attributes will be positive or negative additions to specific scenarios. I can think of situations where dual mixtures would not create positive outcomes. Note that insecurity usually causes someone to be afraid of a relationship simply because of a lack of understanding of the other; it's how wars start.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    duals differ strongly as types - you may need to adopt to them, study to deal with them
    this adoptation should not be long or hard, in general. when both people are interested in the relations
    if you _often_ get the other - mb those are not your duals. you talk like F type, but not ILE in your profile
    You are free to PM me your thoughts on my type but not in this thread.

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