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Thread: IEE Difficulties SLI and subtype (ENFp and ISTp)

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    Default IEE Difficulties SLI and subtype (ENFp and ISTp)

    Hellllo! Does anyone remember me? Its been such a long time! I never forgot about socionics, it was always there in the back of my mind. I kind of continued to passively type people without thinking about it. I'm amazed to see that i still recognize some names. I bet after thinking about socionics for so long you have really advanced your knowledge. I'm legit really keen to hear what has been going on with you all!

    So what happened with / to me? Well a lot (life). A very long story short i developed quite a serious anxiety disorder, depression also. I do mean serious too. Quite a lot of sadness, more than i thought i would have ever had when i was a child.

    Fortunately i learnt a few things about myself. One of those things is i just cannot give up. Through all of my troubles, i never lost hope for long (although i did many times). I tirelessly tried to fix and help myself. If you're familiar with anxiety and depression while never giving up is an admirable quality, it was unfortunately part of the problem. Eventually though i came to understand how to help myself (it took a long time). I found the work of Claire Weekes, and the blog of another Anxiety sufferer, who i'm pretty sure is ENFp. I saw the wisdom in what they promoted and i think they saved my life. For the past 5 months i've felt like myself again. Its been a wonderful transition, i feel free again and words cannot express it to be honest. Anxiety took away my greatest strengths, it robbed me of the possibilities in life. I feel an immense sense of gratitude just to feel ok. If you happen to have bad anxiety, or even depression i might be worth talking to.

    But now with myself personality returning, I don't really quite know who i am. In a sense i think i do, but i was hoping to get some confirmation. Of course a partner is something that has alluded me. I've had brushes with people of course, even with an ISTp when i lived overseas but when you're struggling so much your chances are limited.

    I work in mental health working primarily with people with schizophrenia (I really love it). There are quite a few ISTp's in my workplace (like 5 or something). One of the women has shown attraction towards me for about 2 years now (even before i was feeling better). In my sleep deprived state over the past few days I've been trying to figure out her subtype and my own subtype. I think that she is ISTp-Si and I am ENFp-Fi. Unfortunately i cant deny that i have feelings for her but i'm not sure if its simply because she seems to like me.

    Her - She works hard at work, tries her very best to do everything thoroughly and properly. Probably even the best member of the team (from a doing everything to the letter standpoint). In her work with clients she is very direct and businesslike and keeps our mutual client on track with practical matters. Shes quite effective when working with him and is calm and patient. He is an ISTp as well by the way (highly complex with bi-polar, PTSD and some personality problems as well). She does a lot more of the talking and tends to lead the interaction with me backing her up. She can kind of put her foot in her mouth a little in meetings, she tend to get excited and even a little loud. Ive noticed that she has a slight tendency to talk to clients in a childish voice and when she talks there seems to be a slightly grating quality / lack of smoothness sometimes (lack of Fe?).

    In our relations together its almost cold and distant. We have pretty much NEVER chatted about our personal lives to each other. Its all business. I'm almost scared to talk to her and she seems reluctant to open up. Whenever we work with our mutual client though she seems to want to see me. She asks to (debrief) which i think is unnecessary in her car. The other day I was in a very good mood and she was definitely a little flirty, putting her head too close to mine etc. At the end of the visit i hopped in my car and she seemed to hesitantly look like she wanted to (debrief) again. Inevitably i got a phonecall as i was driving. Interestingly though we often have quite a stunted businesslike conversation on the phone as well. She genuinely seems to want to focus on our client and i feel like i don't have a lot of insight to offer her. I am kind of intrigued by her unavailability, and the fact that i know very little about her. When i read the subtype description a lot seems to fit with the Si subtype to me (working in humanitarian fields). I don't feel a great deal of Si in person from her though.

    Me

    I'm pretty sure i'm an Fi subtype. My greatest skill to in the world is probably making people like me (and get closer to me). Although this skill has atrophied a lot to the point where its not often. Sometimes i feel myself pulling people so palpably that i can tell the other person is almost mesmerized by me. I am quite a chameleon, i change how i approach different people. I seem to find a way to quite effectively work with most (not all) of my clients. I'm often quiet and don't know what to say though. I worry about being boring. My Ti seems painfully weak sometimes. I do feel a bit turbulent and unsure of who I am. I have a bit of an edgy quality, while i'm very kind i'm not innocent (like some ENFp's ive met). I don't lead a life too quirky, I don't create much. I like to go to the gym and chill at home watching TV / Movies. I've noticed i'm naturally slightly more serious and don't feel compelled to laugh with Fe types when i think the joke is shit or not my style. I'm not that confident in myself though but i wonder if life did that. Sometimes though i can feel very confident, walking around the gym talking to everyone. These days i just don't really care what people think about me.

    I'd imagine the Ne subtype (who i'm not sure ive met much) is more intellectually driven. Id imagine they are more creative, getting flights of ideas and feeling compelled to follow them through. I know one ENFp who was a lot quirkier than me. He was very quiet, he wore toe shoes and is now living in Indonesia with his girlfriend doing this weird yoga thing where they hold each other up in weird positions. I studied psych and social work and didn't find it particularly difficult, but i wasn't particularly interested in intellectualizing too much. I actually often seem to easily see the bullshit in what other people believe. I'm a huge skeptic. Without offending anyone, my friends ENFp girlfriend is into energy healing and crystals etc, and i just could never believe in that in a million years. Its annoying though as she has such a lovely group of hippie friends

    Sorry about the long post - i'm quite sleep deprived right now. I have this feeling that this girl is Si ISTp. It's kind of sad, as i might (although not sure) really need a Te type best. They seem rare too. One of my longest friends is very logical, he could pull apart a car engine and put it back together. He is interested in trees and nature and often tells me shit about how the helicopter flying overhead is coming from this airport or that this valley used to have gold in it. He's also very irritable and cranky pants and can piss people off, but in a sense i'm the right type of person to smooth out his relations for him. Its really annoying, its like i'm dreaming of this ISTp being perfect for me while simultaneously knowing i'm probably deluding myself.
    Last edited by meatburger; 08-28-2018 at 10:57 PM.
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    ...just ask her out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aki View Post
    ...just ask her out.
    This is good advice (of course). My ex-wife is SLI-Te, and she is very, very practical. Whenever I wanted to do something with her, I’d just ask her and she’d say Yes or No. If No, sometimes I’d ask again in an hour and she’d say Yes. She didn’t get offended, she just liked to have some time sometimes to think about it. SLI’s are not the most spontaneous people in the Socion, but that’s why they like IEE’s.

    I do agree with you that subtype matters a lot here, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aki View Post
    ...just ask her out.
    Well.. I might have omitted a minor detail. Shes married to an ISTp and has been for 16 years.

    Before i look like the villain here though i actually torpedoed the whole thing by telling her (via FB) we cant flirt on account of her being married. She didn't respond to the message but any building tension was extinguished pretty much immediately. Its never been the same between us since. I actually do wonder if i did it more because i'm a good guy though or more because i knew something was wrong and wanted to stop it. I'm more interested because i like to explore my feelings / knowledge rather than as a strategy to ruin her marriage.

    Id love to hear from some Ne-Enfps what they are like. I think Rick from socionistblogspot (who i really liked) might have been an Ne type. If i recall he made his income with all these side ventures (translating, web design etc). The insecurity of that frightens me and i'm not even sure i could successfully make a living like that even if i want to.
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    "And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anas Nin

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    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
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    Hi Meatburger, nice to see you around! Good to read that you picked yourself up after a period of depression.

    As to this attraction you have to this ISTp woman, I'm going to be a bit rough on you, but I hope you understand that I'm saying all this with the best intentions.

    Very often when people are, so to say, not emotionally mature, they have this tendency to focus on other people who are not good for them, instead of focusing on people on people with good intentions towards you. It doesn't mean such people are bad people, it just means they are not good for you. Now this shouldn't come as a surprise, because this is what Socionics already teaches us, although this issue extends far beyond the mechanisms eplained by Socionics.

    In the romantic area this often translates to being structurally attracted to people who are, in one way or another, not emotionally available. Either because they are emotionally inhibited, or because they are already in a relationship, or because they live in another town, a three hours drive away, or because they are always on the move going from one country to another, or if they are constantly under the influence of alcohol or drugs, or are emotionally of physically abusive etc.etc. The key point is, that such people are not available to you, especially when you are in need of emotional support. It is either a pathological or neurotic issue if you constantly seek out and end up with people who are not there to meet your emotional needs. Meanwhile being blind to all the good people out there who are trying to reach out to you. Of course, being emotionally mature also means you are being available to other people's genuine emotional needs.

    Now I'm not just speaking from theoretical perspective here, but also from own experience. I've been through therapy myself to overcome this, and even after therapy I had to struggle against temptations to fall into the same pits again, only very recently discovering that I have finally outgrown this this old behavioral need.

    My recommendation to you is: with each encounter with someone you feel attracted to, either romantically or just for friendship, ask yourself: "is this person emotionally available to me, is she or he going to be there when I need them?" Now this is not a question that can always immediately be answered, but at some point the answer will become clear. If the answer is "no", don't enter into even attempts to establish a relationship, try with everything you have in you to resist the urge. Your rational capacity should overrule your emotional urges here. Allowing yourself to enter into such relationship is allowing other people to deprive you of your emotional needs. And the answer is usually "No" in the following cases:

    the other person is:
    - already in another relationship
    - a workaholic and thus never physically present
    - addicted to substance abuse
    - living far away
    - seriously emotionally inhibited (note that healthy SLIs are NOT emotionally inhibited, as some people may seem to believe)
    - an expatriate who shows no clear signs of having settled
    - showing other signs of leading a structurally instable live

    Now obviously there are exceptions to the rules, but in general these principles stand. Don't worry if you try and fail at applying these rules, it is not something you learn overnight and you will probably fall into the pit a couple of times before learning to keep a distance from such attractions, after which you will start seeing other, more realistic and healthier options.

    I hope this helps. If you want to understand the emotional mechanisms behind this, read the chapter on "emotional deprivation" in the book "Reinventing your life" by Jeffrey E. Young et.al.
    Last edited by consentingadult; 08-29-2018 at 10:29 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Hi Meatburger, nice to see you around! Good to read that you picked yourself up after a period of depression.
    Hey there man! I remember you. How have things been? I didn't think you were particularly rough at all, it was a good post. I don't think i'm particularly emotionally unhealthy (perhaps i'm in a bit of denial though) but i am probably still a bit emotionally vulnerable and still finding my feet. If i'm honest she is probably the only women with what seems like a genuine longer term attraction towards me so that in itself intrigued me. You're right though, i've actually had a relationship with an attached women in the past (and its one of my greatest regrets). Its just a shit idea. I will look take a bit of a look at myself to see if that unavailability is part of the attraction.

    For me the idea that two people can be not quite right but almost right is heart wrenching. I've noticed in myself when someone seems interesting i start wishing that we were perfect for each other. I even start wishing i was another type (today i was wishing that i was more the Ne type). Which is pretty stupid because i've never met anyone id rather be than myself. Im pretty avoidant towards relationships. Id rather not end up hurting some poor person so i won't even consider it unless its pretty good match.

    To be honest, part of my motivation was to actually confirm that she is the wrong subtype for me so i can have more ammo to avoid her. It actually kind of worked, i felt today that the psychological distance between us was very substantial. It felt like we were strangers talking to each other across a very wide crevasse. I think that she spent some quality time with her husband and i was able to push it away. A good thing for sure. It just ferks me off, i know quite a few ISTp women but i think they are all Si types ha.
    Last edited by meatburger; 08-29-2018 at 11:37 AM.
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    This is good advice (of course). My ex-wife is SLI-Te, and she is very, very practical.
    Hey Adam, can you describe her a little bit?
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    Yes, but not right now.

    What in particular do you want to know?

    Try to be specific. We were married for many years and I have tons of info on her, but probably most of it is not well-analyzed because being in a long term relationship with a person requires some degree of self-delusion concerning the other person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    being in a long term relationship with a person requires some degree of self-delusion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    What in particular do you want to know?
    Just her phone number, email and Facebook mate.

    Um, what would be most interesting?

    -the types of things she liked to do day to day & mannerisms
    -differences between her and the Si subtype you might have observed
    -what really annoyed you about her
    -her greatest strengths and things that might stand out to others about her

    That'll do cheers!
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    ^ not what I expected you to ask, but OK. Give me a day or so.

    In the meantime, @consentingadult and @Rebelondeck will have the most insight into the type.
    @Aki are one, but she’s not talking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    ^ not what I expected you to ask, but OK. Give me a day or so.

    In the meantime, @consentingadult and @Rebelondeck will have the most insight into the type.
    @Aki are one, but she’s not talking.
    Thanks mate. Out of curiosity what did you expect me to ask?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    ^ not what I expected you to ask, but OK. Give me a day or so.

    In the meantime, @consentingadult and @Rebelondeck will have the most insight into the type.
    @Aki are one, but she’s not talking.
    Other than to recommend not taking a dip in her pool, I really cannot offer much more than the two descriptions that I wrote:

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...iption-by-I-O?
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...iption-by-I-O?

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    Well.. I might have omitted a minor detail. Shes married to an ISTp and has been for 16 years.

    Before i look like the villain here though i actually torpedoed the whole thing by telling her (via FB) we cant flirt on account of her being married. She didn't respond to the message but any building tension was extinguished pretty much immediately. Its never been the same between us since. I actually do wonder if i did it more because i'm a good guy though or more because i knew something was wrong and wanted to stop it. I'm more interested because i like to explore my feelings / knowledge rather than as a strategy to ruin her marriage.

    Id love to hear from some Ne-Enfps what they are like. I think Rick from socionistblogspot (who i really liked) might have been an Ne type. If i recall he made his income with all these side ventures (translating, web design etc). The insecurity of that frightens me and i'm not even sure i could successfully make a living like that even if i want to.
    an ISTp married to another ISTp? thats strange.

    Anyway, if she's married I don't know what's the problem. Why do you even consider her for anything more beyond mere friendship?

    To me it sounds like its time for you to expand your horizons. You are also talking about something that happened 2 years ago and then you say she's already married. Just move on and meet new people. Keep her as a friend if so.
    Last edited by Tommy; 08-29-2018 at 07:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    Sorry about the long post - i'm quite sleep deprived right now. I have this feeling that this girl is Si ISTp. It's kind of sad, as i might (although not sure) really need a Te type best. They seem rare too. One of my longest friends is very logical, he could pull apart a car engine and put it back together. He is interested in trees and nature and often tells me shit about how the helicopter flying overhead is coming from this airport or that this valley used to have gold in it. He's also very irritable and cranky pants and can piss people off, but in a sense i'm the right type of person to smooth out his relations for him. Its really annoying, its like i'm dreaming of this ISTp being perfect for me while simultaneously knowing i'm probably deluding myself.
    There is a theory that says opposite subtypes are not the best match. Intuitive subtypes with sensing subtypes and ethical subtypes with logical subtypes tend to have more tense relations because the shock of opposite functions is usually too much. If you are IEE you might be better matched with an SLI.

    This article explains this theory. Check it out for yourself: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...types-by-Meged
    Last edited by Uncle Ave; 08-29-2018 at 07:45 PM. Reason: added stuff

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    Hey meatburger! I would say welcome back, but if you're working on your mental health this forum is probably not the best place to do it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aki View Post
    an ISTp married to another ISTp? thats strange.

    Anyway, if she's married I don't know what's the problem. Why do you even consider her for anything more beyond mere friendship?

    To me it sounds like its time for you to expand your horizons. You are also talking about something that happened 2 years ago and then you say she's already married. Just move on and meet new people. Keep her as a friend if so.
    I don't think its as rare as you'd imagine I've met quite a few ISTp pairs in my time. I agree though for one to last for that amount of time is impressive. All this stuff sadly didn't happen two years ago, it's still happening up to a month ago. She gets into a car with me and says ('this feels like an affair') etc. It's difficult for me figure out how to find a safe psychological distance between us because - She stirs up feelings in me, I have to work with her, I genuinely want to have a good relationship with her so things go smoothly and we can help our client. But what tends to happen currently is i push her away and find it hard to deal with her then feel like i need to do small things to repair it. While she seems to playing an ethical game where she is acting quite unpredictably as well.

    I was actually trying to figure out exactly what is going on as once i have a handle on it i can rationally deal with it properly. Eg - find the strength to maintain a distance where she doesn't flirt with me and its workable. I guess i thought once i could figure it out then i could more easily let my values guide me (e.g she is married stay away from her with a 50 ft pole).

    There is another element of this as well - I actually kind of enjoy trying to figure it out. I probably sound like a mess but i'm its just turbulent emotions, i'm handling all this perfectly fine.
    Last edited by meatburger; 08-29-2018 at 10:01 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avebury View Post
    There is a theory that says opposite subtypes are not the best match. Intuitive subtypes with sensing subtypes and ethical subtypes with logical subtypes tend to have more tense relations because the shock of opposite functions is usually too much. If you are IEE you might be better matched with an SLI.

    This article explains this theory. Check it out for yourself: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...types-by-Meged
    Thanks mate. I'll have a good read of that soon!

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Hey meatburger! I would say welcome back, but if you're working on your mental health this forum is probably not the best place to do it
    Hey there mate. Sorry if i'm giving the impression that i'm all over the place. I'm actually happier and more comfortable than i have been since i've been 15. Truly. My anxiety is extremely low and i keep finding myself smiling and laughing at things. I have an LII friend and in the past i have disturbed him a little to the point he is worried about me. I think the reality is i'm a fiery bastard. My emotions run very deep and i'm not really embarrassed to express them to others. I can seem very worked up to others while not really being worried at all for myself. When i talk about sleep deprivation its because i decided to do a sleep restriction / stimulus control protocol to correct my sleep. I decided it was a bit much so i've stopped it now.

    It seems there are a multitude of reasons why i seem to keep searching and seem unable to settle down. I feel torn between being who i truly am and being skillful when dealing with people. This doesn't just extend to finding a girlfriend. I am very passionate about helping people now. I work with so many varied personalities that its a real benefit to know who i am so i can be the best worker that i can be.

    For example my clients are currently ISFj, 4x ISTp, ESFj, ISTj & INTp. Its important for me to understand why i'm quiet around the ESFj as he really needs my help. Yet i received an email from him last two nights ago when he was drunk saying thanks for helping him.

    You're right about the forum though. I left the forum for a reason. I felt that socionics was a bit too much for me lol. That might prove to be true. Unfortunately the bloody thing is so embedded in my psych i cant get rid of it haha.
    Last edited by meatburger; 08-29-2018 at 10:04 PM.
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    @meatburger

    If the SLI you're interested in is married then I recommend trying to hook up with her for a one night stand or have her set up as a friend with benefits. She is probably bored with her marriage and needs excitement so use your IEE charm to make the magic happen.

    Jokes aside, it's really nice to see you again Meatburger! I think you're most likely Fi-IEE judging by our past conversations, I notice some differences between us that can be explained by subtype. Anyways, I think it's been 11 years since we last talked, time flies.
    Last edited by Raver; 08-30-2018 at 12:16 AM.
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    Traveller! I had to look up your username. Nice to see you too man!

    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    @meatburger

    If the SLI you're interested in is married then I recommend trying to hook up with her for a one night stand or have her set up as a friend with benefits. She is probably bored with her marriage and needs excitement so use your IEE charm to make the magic happen.
    I think she would like you a lot more

    I think you're most likely Fi-IEE judging by our past conversations, I notice some differences between us that can be explained by subtype. Anyways, I think it's been 11 years since we last talked, time flies.
    Man, you are 100% right. I started thinking about it a lot over the past few days, I am 100% Fi-sub. I think its been kind of hard to reconcile for me, being such a strong feeling male. I feel like a bit of an oddity. I kind of found what seemed to be my true state over the past couple of days. I had this calm, kind, confident aura. I noticed a lot of my interactions went very smoothly. Its pretty obvious i'm Fi by how much i speak about people on here and my interactions with them. I also talk about myself too much!

    I have lost almost all feeling for that ISTp now. I interacted her a little today and now feel very little. She made some phonecalls and she was just quite competent when dealing with clients. She asked her client very tactfully if they wanted her to come or not. I wasn't particularly impressed because i can do the same. I actually suspect that she might have been more attracted to me when i was this anxious, internal, scattered mess. I'm certainly not implying that Ne types are like this but i predict that now that i've come out of that funk any attraction she had will dwindle. Another marriage safe from the meatburger - phew!

    I read the theory in the post by Avebury and i just cant quite see it. I feel the Si ISTp's I've met can be easy to speak to, but they don't seem as interesting to me. Interest and flowing conversation is very important to me. I really do think subtypes make a large difference now. Perhaps if i got to know Si types more, or if there were other factors involved like strong mutual interests or a lot of attraction. ISTp Te subtypes tend to have this kind of harsh, mean girl quality to them. I think i like it

    My best mate is an LSE and i think hes a Si type though. I actually really enjoy his Si+Te (i guess activation is different).

    Do you think Subtypes are genetically determined, learnt or can change? My parents are ISFj & ISTj, so it kind of makes sense i might have learnt to avoid my Ne somewhat with them. Makes me wonder if one can actually change subtypes (not that i necessarily want to). I cant see myself ever being an Ne sub though. I remember reading a post before where two Ne types posters ("glumped") each other jokingly. The word glumped even slightly annoyed me lol.

    11 years Raver. What's changed over that time? Its interesting that both our signatures are basically the same though
    Last edited by meatburger; 08-30-2018 at 08:12 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post

    Just her phone number, email and Facebook mate.

    Um, what would be most interesting?

    -the types of things she liked to do day to day & mannerisms
    She likes to work at the UM law school. She likes to take vacations to distant, isolated, comfortable places. On our honeymoon, we had a room in the Drake Hotel in Chicago for a couple weeks. Otherwise, she liked us to rent a house in Northern Michigan or Florida near a beach where she'd stay inside all day reading murder mysteries. Sometimes I could get her to go out, but not often. She needs a lot of alone time. She prepares ahead. On trips, she'd pack everything. She hates to drive and hates riding in a car. She likes train travel. She likes to shop for clothes and for food, and she likes to prepare food. She drinks one beer a day and stops there and I don't think I've ever seen her drunk. She doesn't eat much, and because she is very thin (5'8", 118 lbs when we married, not much different now) she can wear anything and look good, although her taste in good looking, practical, durable clothes is quite amazing. She once had a coat she was wearing but left on a chair stolen at a law conference (! Who steals coats? - But it was an amazing trench coat.)

    She is very reliable and not very spontaneous. Even though she has very few friends whom she hasn't known for many years, she still needs people occasionally. She is very dutiful and meets her obligations. I suspect she thinks her life is boring, but she has never said that.

    She is extremely sensitive to criticism. I basically never criticized her (they say it's hard for a Supervisee to do that, and I can vouch for that) but I could tell she'd kind of collapse inside when she thought someone was critical of her. You'd have to know her pretty well to see this, though.

    As for her mannerisms, she is basically a female version of Clint Eastwood in his prime. Hard, remote, and effortlessly cruel but very competent.

    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    -differences between her and the Si subtype you might have observed
    I work with a guy whom I think might be the Si-subtype, but I'm not sure. He seems lazier and more racist and less certain and not as smart (but he has a PhD) as my ex. He might not be either subtype, though.

    My ex and I bonded through our mutually strong Te which made us more like Mirrors than a Supervising/Supervised pair. We also bonded through our difficulties with our respective narcissistic parents. Life stories are more important than you might think.

    My SLI-Te ex's sister is an IEE-Ne, and my SLI-Te son has a lot of trouble being around her. He says she is too scattered and random and he can't stand her. He calls her Spongebob. On the other hand, I have an IEE-Fi accountant who is very caring and warm and down-to-earth and even though she's older than he is (and very unhappily married to an ILE), I can tell that she kind of locks her attention on to him when they (rarely) are in the same room, and he in turn kind of panics and runs away from her, which is a sure sign he feels vulnerable to her interest. He doesn't act that way at all with his IEE-Ne aunt.

    I think he sees some kind of inevitability in the IEE-Fi that he doesn't see in other women, and he's desperately afraid of being tied down. All I can really tell is that she scares the hell out of him, even though she's nice and isn't serious in that sense about him. She just thinks he's a really handsome, mature, interesting guy.

    For what it's worth, when I first proposed marriage to my SLI-Te ex, she said "No". She just wanted to live in her apartment, me in my house, and we'd see each other every few days for companionship, mini-adventures, and sex. I told her that was not OK with me. We would either get closer or we'd get further apart. After a few days, she agreed to get married. So getting an SLI-Te to marry you is not the easiest thing in the world. They look at it as a restriction on their time and attention and an intrusion into their space, all of which they, of course, are hoarding.

    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    -what really annoyed you about her
    Not much annoyed me about her. We were almost perfect social and life-direction matches. However, she (along with all other SLI's) is a resource-hoarder. She would always give herself the largest portions of food when she was preparing plates of food, and she hid a considerable sum of money during our marriage while later claiming that I knew about it. You might think that this would make her appear selfish and it did to some extent, but she could also be quite generous to family members, friends, the church and the Salvation Army when she thought it was appropriate.

    The worst thing about our marriage was the fact that we were on different sexual axis'. She is a Caregiver on the Caregiver-Infantile axis, and I am a Victim on the Aggressor-Victim axis. This made sex adequate but not very good. I have dated LSI's and perhaps an ESI (a long time ago) where the sex was orders of magnitude better.

    What was just as bad is that I am Sx-first and she is Sx-last. Experience with this latter difference has caused me to break off dating an otherwise very attractive ESI sx-last recently.

    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    -her greatest strengths and things that might stand out to others about her
    She looks great (thin, dresses conservatively but with great taste) and she's very conscientious and practical and she works hard and is logical and she presents herself very well in an introverted, subdued, not-trying-hard way. She is often the person who is the public face of the law school at conferences, despite her being an introvert. She prepares very well.

    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    That'll do cheers!
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 08-30-2018 at 01:34 PM.

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    Not kidding Adam, that was very helpful for my intuitive understanding of the Te sub. I started to re-allocate a large number of ISTps. Cheers!

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    She likes to work at the UM law school. She likes to take vacations to distant, isolated, comfortable places. On our honeymoon, we had a room in the Drake Hotel in Chicago for a couple weeks. Otherwise, she liked us to rent a house in Northern Michigan or Florida near a beach where she'd stay inside all day reading murder mysteries. Sometimes I could get her to go out, but not often. She needs a lot of alone time. She prepares ahead.
    I actually knew an ISTp-Te when i lived in Darwin. She is now a Barrister. She liked to drink up a storm and was quite thin. Another one i used to work with was older, thin and fairly quiet and she seemed exactly the type to stay at home reading murder mysteries ha. She didn't have a drivers licence, i think she used to love to drink. She didn't strike me as someone who led a really exciting life but i never thought she was a loser.

    She is very reliable and not very spontaneous. Even though she has very few friends whom she hasn't known for many years, she still needs people occasionally. She is very dutiful and meets her obligations. I suspect she thinks her life is boring, but she has never said that.
    I just thought of another one right now. She was an older manager at a council for the aged care department when on work placement. She and her ISFj colleague used to invite me out for dinner every now and then. I was late / nervous when we first met and i thought she was rude as fuck (well she was). I started working for this old guy with dementia (ISTp actually) and together we had his house forensically cleaned and i used to take him out to the beach for fish and chips. She was a workaholic, i got the impression she was lonely and she suffered depression. She went on a holiday to UK (I suggested she should do so) and one of her relatives got sick while she was over there and it ruined her whole holiday. I think i'll send her an email, i really feel for her now.

    As for her mannerisms, she is basically a female version of Clint Eastwood in his prime. Hard, remote, and effortlessly cruel but very competent.
    Haha i always thought Clint was an ISTj but you could be right. Effortlessly cruel? In what sense? My Te friend is the type of dude you would want if the world went to shit. He is hard and practical enough to survive.

    I work with a guy whom I think might be the Si-subtype, but I'm not sure. He seems lazier and more racist and less certain and not as smart (but he has a PhD) as my ex. He might not be either subtype, though.
    My SLI-Te ex's sister is an IEE-Ne, and my SLI-Te son has a lot of trouble being around her. He says she is too scattered and random and he can't stand her.
    Its kind of opened up a whole new world of non duality i didn't realize existed. Like i think Ne-IEE's probably find Te-Sli's bland. I get the impression that the SLI finds me interesting until i open my mouth. Then shes like - is that it? The older SLI i described earlier didn't like an Ne-IEE who also worked with her which always surprised me. Makes a lot of sense now, this IEE was highly capable and very energetic. She has like 5 kids and holds down a job, i still don't understand how she does it.

    On the other hand, I have an IEE-Fi accountant who is very caring and warm and down-to-earth and even though she's older than he is (and very unhappily married to an ILE), I can tell that she kind of locks her attention on to him when they (rarely) are in the same room, and he in turn kind of panics and runs away from her, which is a sure sign he feels vulnerable to her interest. He doesn't act that way at all with his IEE-Ne aunt.
    I have an IEE-Fi in my friend group and she studied accounting. I actually thought what the heck why are you doing that. How can in IEE work in accounting long? She struggled with it too my LSE friend had to help her. She is now very successful in a marketing job.

    I think he sees some kind of inevitability in the IEE-Fi that he doesn't see in other women, and he's desperately afraid of being tied down. All I can really tell is that she scares the hell out of him, even though she's nice and isn't serious in that sense about him. She just thinks he's a really handsome, mature, interesting guy.
    Do you mean like - hes thinking fuck? If i dated her that would be it, id probably settle down and i'm not ready for that?

    For what it's worth, when I first proposed marriage to my SLI-Te ex, she said "No". She just wanted to live in her apartment, me in my house, and we'd see each other every few days for companionship, mini-adventures, and sex. I told her that was not OK with me. We would either get closer or we'd get further apart. After a few days, she agreed to get married. So getting an SLI-Te to marry you is not the easiest thing in the world. They look at it as a restriction on their time and attention and an intrusion into their space, all of which they, of course, are hoarding.
    Probably wouldn't bother me, i couldn't give a shit about being married at least at this point in my life haha. Living in different houses seems a bit shit though i wouldn't like that.

    Not much annoyed me about her. We were almost perfect social and life-direction matches. However, she (along with all other SLI's) is a resource-hoarder. She would always give herself the largest portions of food when she was preparing plates of food, and she hid a considerable sum of money during our marriage while later claiming that I knew about it.
    Lol ive seen my friend do this. Next time i'm going to ask for more meat.

    The worst thing about our marriage was the fact that we were on different sexual axis'. She is a Caregiver on the Caregiver-Infantile axis, and I am a Victim on the Aggressor-Victim axis. This made sex adequate but not very good. I have dated LSI's and perhaps an ESI (a long time ago) where the sex was orders of magnitude better.
    The best i ever had was with an SEE. I think they are pretty good at it though i don't claim it was any of my doing

    What was just as bad is that I am Sx-first and she is Sx-last. Experience with this latter difference has caused me to break off dating an otherwise very attractive ESI sx-last recently.
    I don't quite understand what you mean but shit like this really gets to me. Like i'll be honest i have this kind of heart-ache feeling now for the possibility of romance with that ISTp going out the window (despite me not really caring that much). It won't last long, probably a few days. The fact that she found something about me attractive but that we are not right for each other strikes me as this small tragedy. I notice the ESI subtypes quite easily. My mum is an ESI and she is the kindest person that i have ever met (towards her family). Shes remarkable really. Interestingly shes actually kind of xenophobic and i used to tell her off for it but now i just let it go.

    Thanks a lot man. I found it hard to imagine what these differences between the two subtypes in women looked like in real life. I still think i'll struggle to differentiate them quickly at times.

    Btw - one of my mates is an ENTj. He was very talented at sport to the point where he almost could have gone pro at tennis if he felt like it. He and i have a good laugh. Often i notice we bond on these strange intuitive stories we make up. So the other day when explaining my sleep deprivation i said they will probably see me on the news crashed into a building still asleep, and he found that really funny. He seems to really like my Fi. Other thing is, i have explained socionics to him and he really seems to get it better than anyone else ive explained it to. Genuinely good dude.
    Last edited by meatburger; 08-30-2018 at 10:55 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    Traveller! I had to look up your username. Nice to see you too man!
    Thanks, I'm glad you remembered me!

    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    I think she would like you a lot more
    Haha!

    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    Man, you are 100% right. I started thinking about it a lot over the past few days, I am 100% Fi-sub. I think its been kind of hard to reconcile for me, being such a strong feeling male. I feel like a bit of an oddity. I kind of found what seemed to be my true state over the past couple of days. I had this calm, kind, confident aura. I noticed a lot of my interactions went very smoothly. Its pretty obvious i'm Fi by how much i speak about people on here and my interactions with them. I also talk about myself too much!
    Exactly, I can relate to having the ups and downs in terms of confidence as well btw. It must be an IEE trait, but I think Ne-IEEs are less socially confident than Fi-IEEs. It seems ironic because we're more extroverted, but it's important to note that we have weaker , than the Fi-IEE sub, which help with socializing. Of course instinctual stacking plays a role as I am so last as an sp/sx.

    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    I have lost almost all feeling for that ISTp now. I interacted her a little today and now feel very little. She made some phonecalls and she was just quite competent when dealing with clients. She asked her client very tactfully if they wanted her to come or not. I wasn't particularly impressed because i can do the same. I actually suspect that she might have been more attracted to me when i was this anxious, internal, scattered mess. I'm certainly not implying that Ne types are like this but i predict that now that i've come out of that funk any attraction she had will dwindle. Another marriage safe from the meatburger - phew!
    I can relate to being naturally anxious, internal and a scattered mess to an extent, not all the time, but it depends on my mood. I find Si-SLIs tend to be receptive towards me when I am like this because they find it entertaining and funny, while Te-SLIs I have to tone down my behavior because they find it more annoying and odd.

    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    I read the theory in the post by Avebury and i just cant quite see it. I feel the Si ISTp's I've met can be easy to speak to, but they don't seem as interesting to me. Interest and flowing conversation is very important to me. I really do think subtypes make a large difference now. Perhaps if i got to know Si types more, or if there were other factors involved like strong mutual interests or a lot of attraction. ISTp Te subtypes tend to have this kind of harsh, mean girl quality to them. I think i like it

    My best mate is an LSE and i think hes a Si type though. I actually really enjoy his Si+Te (i guess activation is different).
    Subtype does make a big difference because if you think about it an Ne-IEE is just as close to be an Ne-ILE as an Fi-IEE is as close to being an Fi-IEE. So I've noticed I've gotten along better with Si-SLI for this reason in terms of socializing and interest. However, with Te-SLIs I've noticed that when it comes to intellectual matters we tend to be pretty good at conversing, it's the other areas that aren't as good though, but of course this varies for each individual and cannot be attributed specially to subtype.

    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    Do you think Subtypes are genetically determined, learnt or can change? My parents are ISFj & ISTj, so it kind of makes sense i might have learnt to avoid my Ne somewhat with them. Makes me wonder if one can actually change subtypes (not that i necessarily want to). I cant see myself ever being an Ne sub though. I remember reading a post before where two Ne types posters ("glumped") each other jokingly. The word glumped even slightly annoyed me lol.
    I think subtypes are generally more fixed and determined by birth or perhaps at incredibly young age. I do think our functions do improve over time depending on how much we focus on them due to environmental reasons or out of our own volition.

    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    11 years Raver. What's changed over that time? Its interesting that both our signatures are basically the same though
    That is an interesting coincidence in terms of our signature. 11 years has flown by! Quite a bit has changed for me, my twenties were a crazy rollercoaster ride to say the least, lots of ups and downs and lessons being learnt the hard way. I've stabilized somewhat in my early thirties though, but there is still more improvement left to be done. How about you?
    We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand. Randy Pausch

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    One things I admire the most about IEEs is their ability to empathize and connect well with both the "******" and the "redneck." Two very different types of people that are kind of organically opposed, the IEE is able to find common ground with both of them in their delta psychology today-ness ways. This makes them excellent therapists, counselors, guidance people and mediators. They have a way of making everybody feel that they aren't biased.

    However, the downside to this is it makes them appear two-faced. Where does their loyalties truly lie? If a real war broke out- what side would they choose etc. This also really really relates to their Ti polr, their brains don't even concretely categorize people into fags and rednecks in the first place, even when it's quite obvious to almost everybody else when a ****** is fagging and a redneck is redding. Well, I think they will recognize such things, but due to their polr- they shy away from taking it too seriously/dwelling on it too long or something because it's an area of mental pain for them. Idk Ti polr is really interesting. I think it would be cool if the forum talked more about Ti polr.

    Ti is about internal logical categories and to have that as a polr, kinda fascinates me. I'm not the best at Ti either, but I'm good at it enough that it really helps me get through my day and covers up my Te polr weakness really well. (also its my mobilizing function so if I use a lot of Ti, it tends to motivate me into a more advantageous position.) Without my 2 dimensional Ti I really would just float up into space or something.
    Last edited by BandD; 09-04-2018 at 05:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    Exactly, I can relate to having the ups and downs in terms of confidence as well btw. It must be an IEE trait, but I think Ne-IEEs are less socially confident than Fi-IEEs. It seems ironic because we're more extroverted, but it's important to note that we have weaker , than the Fi-IEE sub, which help with socializing. Of course instinctual stacking plays a role as I am so last as an sp/sx.
    Yeah its perplexing to me, I've wondered how the subtypes would appear socially. I would say i am socially confident, I have no issues interacting with anyone and actually recognize that i have quite a lot of social skill. Yet, i'm often finding myself fairly quiet these days. I can chat with people when i want, but i don't feel compelled to chat with people that much. I can go a whole weekend just speaking to my parents on occasion and it doesn't seem to perturb me that much. I've seen quite a few Fi-IEE's say they are quiet too. I think you're right that having greater Ne i would lead someone to be more extroverted. Greater-Fi, being an introverted function i suspect actually leads people to be more effected by their own emotional state which leads them to be more quiet in general. I actually find my 'feelings' can actually get in the way, they disrupt my cognition sometimes so I feel i have to devote a part of my brain power attending to them. I know an Fi-EII and she is one of the most introverted people i have ever met.

    What i have noticed is that i expend a lot of energy trying to close the distance between people and myself. Even when i'm buying a burger from Macdonalds i'll try to be friendly to the person behind the counter, perhaps slightly over the top with friendliness ('cheers mate' - nice smile) to someone who i'll probably never see again. Lately i've pondered how much energy i expend doing this and if its worth it.

    I'd love to get your thoughts on two people - Elayna from Vagabond sailing and hi-carb Hannah. Firstly, do you agree they are IEE's, and if so what type would you think? I suspect Elayna is IEE-Ne and Hannah is Fi. I am more similar in my energy levels to Hannah.

    If you watch this video and watch her face, you can see a slight unrest / uneasiness. You can see her lip / mouth changing in response to what i suspect is a stream of Fi. Shes keeping her gaze, shes a bit bored and effected by her emotions. She has this kind of deer in headlights look about her at times. More remarkable though is her patience, she sits with him (i presume) the whole time as she probably doesn't want him to be offended. Could an Ne type do that?



    Alayna on the other hand is clearly more energetic. She actually seems to show more Fe to me. She doesn't appear particularly internally disrupted at all. I saw a video the other night where her Ti polr was apparent when she gave up trying to complete immigration papers. Shes a quicker thinker and speaks faster than Hannah. Probably more confident and unconstrained. Shes more flighty, i get the impression she would care less about people liking her.



    Am i nuts? What do you think? I remember reading a thread on subtypes and someone said that subtypes don't exist and that the creative subtypes are just less self confident versions of the same type with Polr's that need a bit more care. I'll admit when i watch someone like Alayna see seems happier and less tortured. All this being said, she is quite attractive and sailing a million dollar Catamaran around tropical islands for a job sooo.... I'm just focused on trying to achieve the best version of myself i can be (and the happiest). What does the most actualized version of each subtype look like?

    Subtype does make a big difference because if you think about it an Ne-IEE is just as close to be an Ne-ILE as an Fi-IEE is as close to being an Fi-IEE. So I've noticed I've gotten along better with Si-SLI for this reason in terms of socializing and interest. However, with Te-SLIs I've noticed that when it comes to intellectual matters we tend to be pretty good at conversing, it's the other areas that aren't as good though, but of course this varies for each individual and cannot be attributed specially to subtype.
    An observation i have made is that on a whole i'm more comfortable with Gammas. I have a really close ENTp friend but Fe in general kind of creeps me out. I just don't like displays of emotion and don't know how to respond effectively to it. If i have the choice between alpha humor (Hamish and Andy) vs gamma humor (Kate, Tim and Marty) i find the latter heaps funnier. Alpha's to me can tend to feel a bit too silly and childlike. Often alpha humor just seems very simplistic. My mother is an ESI though.

    I can relate to being naturally anxious, internal and a scattered mess to an extent, not all the time, but it depends on my mood. I find Si-SLIs tend to be receptive towards me when I am like this because they find it entertaining and funny, while Te-SLIs I have to tone down my behavior because they find it more annoying and odd.
    I'm very interested in what your experience of Ne is. I've noticed lately (now that i'm reading about socionics) that i'll just swap into Ne mode. Its kind of like i just relax and let my brain go and bam, it just starts sifting through things i've read, social experiences, how i felt at the time in what i guess is some attempt to form a rounded understanding of something. Its actually tiring me out and i'm finding im staying up later at night because of it but i'm compelled to do it.

    I think subtypes are generally more fixed and determined by birth or perhaps at incredibly young age. I do think our functions do improve over time depending on how much we focus on them due to environmental reasons or out of our own volition.
    I think you're right, i don't think they change either really. I do wonder If i'd grown up with say Alpha parents rather than my Se dominant ones if i would have been a different subtype).

    That is an interesting coincidence in terms of our signature. 11 years has flown by! Quite a bit has changed for me, my twenties were a crazy rollercoaster ride to say the least, lots of ups and downs and lessons being learnt the hard way. I've stabilized somewhat in my early thirties though, but there is still more improvement left to be done. How about you?
    It's been a bit of a struggle to be honest but there's been some good times. I agree, always room for more improvement

    Quote Originally Posted by Bandcamp
    One things I admire the most about IEEs is their ability to empathize and connect well with both the "******" and the "redneck."
    You know its even more confusing to me because i'm both a ****** and a redneck. I absolutely think men are gorgeous, i love me some hot man meat. Getting sandwiched between two massive hunks is my idea of a fun night. Yet i also like to brew moonshine, shoot guns and talk with a southern drawl. Sometimes, when i see a really hot looking Crocodile, that i type as ISTp i feel myself getting quite turned on. Only the Te-ISTp Crocodiles though as they are a bit broodier and more bitey. I think to myself, can i successfully mate with a crocodile? Is having a romantic encounter with a crocodile really that different to one with an ISTp? Its really confusing being an ENFp.
    Last edited by meatburger; 09-04-2018 at 11:32 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    Yeah its perplexing to me, I've wondered how the subtypes would appear socially. I would say i am socially confident, I have no issues interacting with anyone and actually recognize that i have quite a lot of social skill. Yet, i'm often finding myself fairly quiet these days. I can chat with people when i want, but i don't feel compelled to chat with people that much. I can go a whole weekend just speaking to my parents on occasion and it doesn't seem to perturb me that much. I've seen quite a few Fi-IEE's say they are quiet too. I think you're right that having greater Ne i would lead someone to be more extroverted. Greater-Fi, being an introverted function i suspect actually leads people to be more effected by their own emotional state which leads them to be more quiet in general. I actually find my 'feelings' can actually get in the way, they disrupt my cognition sometimes so I feel i have to devote a part of my brain power attending to them. I know an Fi-EII and she is one of the most introverted people i have ever met.
    Yeah, I see what you mean. I personally think the Ne-IEE has the potential to be more introverted than the Fi-IEE based on their subtype. Like I am so last as an sp/sx so I am more likely to be introverted compared to an Fi-IEE so/sx, but of course an Ne-IEE so/sx will be more extroverted than an Fi-IEE sp/sx.

    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    What i have noticed is that i expend a lot of energy trying to close the distance between people and myself. Even when i'm buying a burger from Macdonalds i'll try to be friendly to the person behind the counter, perhaps slightly over the top with friendliness ('cheers mate' - nice smile) to someone who i'll probably never see again. Lately i've pondered how much energy i expend doing this and if its worth it.
    I can relate to an extent as well, but perhaps not as friendly. I find I can be more friendlier around strangers than non-strangers though, but a lot of it is automatic rather than much thought put into it, but perhaps that's how unconscious works out.

    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    I'd love to get your thoughts on two people - Elayna from Vagabond sailing and hi-carb Hannah. Firstly, do you agree they are IEE's, and if so what type would you think? I suspect Elayna is IEE-Ne and Hannah is Fi. I am more similar in my energy levels to Hannah.

    If you watch this video and watch her face, you can see a slight unrest / uneasiness. You can see her lip / mouth changing in response to what i suspect is a stream of Fi. Shes keeping her gaze, shes a bit bored and effected by her emotions. She has this kind of deer in headlights look about her at times. More remarkable though is her patience, she sits with him (i presume) the whole time as she probably doesn't want him to be offended. Could an Ne type do that?



    Alayna on the other hand is clearly more energetic. She actually seems to show more Fe to me. She doesn't appear particularly internally disrupted at all. I saw a video the other night where her Ti polr was apparent when she gave up trying to complete immigration papers. Shes a quicker thinker and speaks faster than Hannah. Probably more confident and unconstrained. Shes more flighty, i get the impression she would care less about people liking her.



    Am i nuts? What do you think? I remember reading a thread on subtypes and someone said that subtypes don't exist and that the creative subtypes are just less self confident versions of the same type with Polr's that need a bit more care. I'll admit when i watch someone like Alayna see seems happier and less tortured. All this being said, she is quite attractive and sailing a million dollar Catamaran around tropical islands for a job sooo.... I'm just focused on trying to achieve the best version of myself i can be (and the happiest). What does the most actualized version of each subtype look like?
    Yeah, I think your typings are correct. I noticed the Fi-IEE tended to talk in a more controlled and thoughtful way compared to the Ne-IEE that talked in a way that was more scattered and stream of consciousness, which correlates to the Fi-IEE having a more rational feel due to stronger rational functions and the Ne-IEE having a more irrational feel due to stronger irrational functions.

    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    An observation i have made is that on a whole i'm more comfortable with Gammas. I have a really close ENTp friend but Fe in general kind of creeps me out. I just don't like displays of emotion and don't know how to respond effectively to it. If i have the choice between alpha humor (Hamish and Andy) vs gamma humor (Kate, Tim and Marty) i find the latter heaps funnier. Alpha's to me can tend to feel a bit too silly and childlike. Often alpha humor just seems very simplistic. My mother is an ESI though.
    Yeah, this correlates to Fi-IEE being more similar to Fi-SEEs and gammas and Ne-IEEs being more similar to Ne-ILEs and alphas.

    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    I'm very interested in what your experience of Ne is. I've noticed lately (now that i'm reading about socionics) that i'll just swap into Ne mode. Its kind of like i just relax and let my brain go and bam, it just starts sifting through things i've read, social experiences, how i felt at the time in what i guess is some attempt to form a rounded understanding of something. Its actually tiring me out and i'm finding im staying up later at night because of it but i'm compelled to do it.
    Yeah I do the same thing roughly. I take it an extra step sometimes though and let it wander with imagined people and environments that I conjured up in my mind from scratch, kind of like imaginative storytelling with visuals.

    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    I think you're right, i don't think they change either really. I do wonder If i'd grown up with say Alpha parents rather than my Se dominant ones if i would have been a different subtype).
    Possibly, I do think Socionics type is predominately influenced by genetics and infancy, but perhaps there is an influence from early childhood parental upbringing that impacts it as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    It's been a bit of a struggle to be honest but there's been some good times. I agree, always room for more improvement
    Yeah, life is a rollercoaster with many ups and downs and it's always best to enjoy the good times and prepare for the bad times. However, if you work on improving yourself, the good times are more numerous and the bad times are less numerous.

    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    One things I admire the most about IEEs is their ability to empathize and connect well with both the "******" and the "redneck." Two very different types of people that are kind of organically opposed, the IEE is able to find common ground with both of them in their delta psychology today-ness ways. This makes them excellent therapists, counselors, guidance people and mediators. They have a way of making everybody feel that they aren't biased.

    However, the downside to this is it makes them appear two-faced. Where does their loyalties truly lie? If a real war broke out- what side would they choose etc. This also really really relates to their Ti polr, their brains don't even concretely categorize people into fags and rednecks in the first place, even when it's quite obvious to almost everybody else when a ****** is fagging and a redneck is redding. Well, I think they will recognize such things, but due to their polr- they shy away from taking it too seriously/dwelling on it too long or something because it's an area of mental pain for them. Idk Ti polr is really interesting. I think it would be cool if the forum talked more about Ti polr.

    Ti is about internal logical categories and to have that as a polr, kinda fascinates me. I'm not the best at Ti either, but I'm good at it enough that it really helps me get through my day and covers up my Te polr weakness really well. (also its my mobilizing function so if I use a lot of Ti, it tends to motivate me into a more advantageous position.) Without my 2 dimensional Ti I really would just float up into space or something.

    I generally agree, but I do think that dominance ties into this for the IEE too. It's the combination of dominance that results in the IEE looking at two completely opposite views and accepting and rejecting them simultaneously in conjunction with PoLR that prevents the subjective logical break down of different people. This is why SEEs and ILEs don't engage in this kind of behavior despite sharing PolR and dominance respectively.

    Also, I'd add that I'm pretty tolerant of rednecks until their behavior and views become too sadistic and then I begin to discredit them like most people would. I suppose the opposite scenario where I lose my tolerance of LGBTQ when they use their minority status to play the victim card a little too much. I'm accepting of most people and individuals until they branch off into extremes basically and my dominance and PoLR won't allow me to tolerate them anymore.
    We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand. Randy Pausch

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    Yeah, I see what you mean. I personally think the Ne-IEE has the potential to be more introverted than the Fi-IEE based on their subtype. Like I am so last as an sp/sx so I am more likely to be introverted compared to an Fi-IEE so/sx, but of course an Ne-IEE so/sx will be more extroverted than an Fi-IEE sp/sx.
    You could be right, I have the most experiences with Fi-IEE's. I know one girl who is very similar to Elanya and she married an Si-ISTp that i knew. She appeared quite bubbly and scattered and her desk was filled to the brim with trinkets, fish tank, origami figures, photos etc etc. My desk on the other hand was totally empty. lol. While she appeared very interesting and talented i didn't notice that she was noticeably highly intelligent (but perhaps there was lot more depth behind that scattered curiousness than i realized). I would be really interested to meet some more bright Ne-IEE's in person and see what the differences are.

    So i started reading about Enneagram (never actually looked into it) after my post and i realized that their behavior could possibly be explained by this. Without knowing much about it Elenya to be seems like a classical type 7 (the Archetypal ENFp) in my mind. Do you think that Ne dominant IEE's would be more likely to be this variant? That would make sense to me but maybe i'm wrong. I don't understand this So/px thing at all so i'll have to look into it, is that more important than the base ennegram type?

    Yeah, I think your typings are correct. I noticed the Fi-IEE tended to talk in a more controlled and thoughtful way compared to the Ne-IEE that talked in a way that was more scattered and stream of consciousness, which correlates to the Fi-IEE having a more rational feel due to stronger rational functions and the Ne-IEE having a more irrational feel due to stronger irrational functions.
    I noticed that as well.

    Yeah I do the same thing roughly. I take it an extra step sometimes though and let it wander with imagined people and environments that I conjured up in my mind from scratch, kind of like imaginative storytelling with visuals.
    That's really cool, i definitely don't do that. I have never created a fictional landscape like that in my head, the Ne i do have seems to only base itself in reality. I guess I see it as there being almost a passive and and conscious/passive Ne mode. So Ne will always provide information for both of us during the day, but slipping into that dreamy mode is a different step. It almost sounds like what you are doing is mixing your Ni and Ne together?. I'd imagine you might slip into this second mode more than me perhaps. The shower to me is the perfect place for Ne wanderings, i almost go into a trance where i stand there and just give my mind free reign to do whatever it wants. I wonder why that happens, is it related to the pleasure of the shower and Si in some way?

    I've actually noticed that when i am stressed/unhappy/bothered i slip more into Ne mode, its when i'm pondering something deeply or cant get something out of my mind that it happens. I saw some friends last night and i was quite present, no particular insights that i noticed. What did seem to happen though is maybe a more subtle use of Ne when i was watching them. An LIE girl was talking about my clothing 'colour type' and saying how green suited me and i was very conscious of her ILI husbands reaction to it all. I seem to pay a lot of attention to facial expressions and what they could potentially mean. I noticed in the past that when i got really anxious i found peoples facial expressions and my sensitivity to it quite unnerving. Id feel wobbly, then id notice how i was ever so slightly effecting their own internal state, this could make me more self conscious and disrupt my state further creating a bit of a feedback loop. Id like to think sometimes my insights about peoples emotions are mostly accurate, but perhaps i'm just a bit nuts. NeFi doesn't mean we can read minds

    Do you relate much to that?

    Yeah, life is a rollercoaster with many ups and downs and it's always best to enjoy the good times and prepare for the bad times. However, if you work on improving yourself, the good times are more numerous and the bad times are less numerous.
    That's the goal my friend. After reading about Ennegram i had a bit of a shock to my system. I suspect (although secretly hoping this isn't the case) that i am a 4 type. The only strange thing though is i don't relate to the creativity of it at all really. I don't get impulses to create very much at all. So for a day i became upset thinking - ok so i'm probably a type 4 without what seems like the best parts (creativity). Then i started thinking ok but presumably with my extra strong Fi i can reach quite interesting depths of understanding of my emotions etc. The good thing i really liked about Ennegram though is it gives you some hints as to what you can do to grow.

    Hey are you an Aussie? I vaguely remember that you were. If you ever come to Adelaide let me know and we can have a beer!
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

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    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post


    Both women IEI.
    I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that. --- Pippi Longstocking

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    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    You could be right, I have the most experiences with Fi-IEE's. I know one girl who is very similar to Elanya and she married an Si-ISTp that i knew. She appeared quite bubbly and scattered and her desk was filled to the brim with trinkets, fish tank, origami figures, photos etc etc. My desk on the other hand was totally empty. lol. While she appeared very interesting and talented i didn't notice that she was noticeably highly intelligent (but perhaps there was lot more depth behind that scattered curiousness than i realized). I would be really interested to meet some more bright Ne-IEE's in person and see what the differences are.
    Yeah, I think Ne-IEEs can come across as dumber than they really are on first impression because of PoLR and spaceyness, but of course general intelligence is NTR and specific intelligences can be boosted or weakened via type.

    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    So i started reading about Enneagram (never actually looked into it) after my post and i realized that their behavior could possibly be explained by this. Without knowing much about it Elenya to be seems like a classical type 7 (the Archetypal ENFp) in my mind. Do you think that Ne dominant IEE's would be more likely to be this variant? That would make sense to me but maybe i'm wrong. I don't understand this So/px thing at all so i'll have to look into it, is that more important than the base ennegram type?
    I think IEEs in general tend to lean towards 7w6 regardless of subtype, but Ne-IEEs have higher proclivity to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    That's really cool, i definitely don't do that. I have never created a fictional landscape like that in my head, the Ne i do have seems to only base itself in reality. I guess I see it as there being almost a passive and and conscious/passive Ne mode. So Ne will always provide information for both of us during the day, but slipping into that dreamy mode is a different step. It almost sounds like what you are doing is mixing your Ni and Ne together?. I'd imagine you might slip into this second mode more than me perhaps. The shower to me is the perfect place for Ne wanderings, i almost go into a trance where i stand there and just give my mind free reign to do whatever it wants. I wonder why that happens, is it related to the pleasure of the shower and Si in some way?
    Yeah, I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head here, I can relate to all of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    I've actually noticed that when i am stressed/unhappy/bothered i slip more into Ne mode, its when i'm pondering something deeply or cant get something out of my mind that it happens. I saw some friends last night and i was quite present, no particular insights that i noticed. What did seem to happen though is maybe a more subtle use of Ne when i was watching them. An LIE girl was talking about my clothing 'colour type' and saying how green suited me and i was very conscious of her ILI husbands reaction to it all. I seem to pay a lot of attention to facial expressions and what they could potentially mean. I noticed in the past that when i got really anxious i found peoples facial expressions and my sensitivity to it quite unnerving. Id feel wobbly, then id notice how i was ever so slightly effecting their own internal state, this could make me more self conscious and disrupt my state further creating a bit of a feedback loop. Id like to think sometimes my insights about peoples emotions are mostly accurate, but perhaps i'm just a bit nuts. NeFi doesn't mean we can read minds

    Do you relate much to that?
    Yeah, is often an escape from the trials and tribulations of real life. The issue with this it can make us look spaced out to sensors especially for Ne-IEEs. I can relat to paying extra attention to people's facial expressions to, sometimes it makes me more paranoid than I need to be and other times it is correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    That's the goal my friend. After reading about Ennegram i had a bit of a shock to my system. I suspect (although secretly hoping this isn't the case) that i am a 4 type. The only strange thing though is i don't relate to the creativity of it at all really. I don't get impulses to create very much at all. So for a day i became upset thinking - ok so i'm probably a type 4 without what seems like the best parts (creativity). Then i started thinking ok but presumably with my extra strong Fi i can reach quite interesting depths of understanding of my emotions etc. The good thing i really liked about Ennegram though is it gives you some hints as to what you can do to grow.

    Hey are you an Aussie? I vaguely remember that you were. If you ever come to Adelaide let me know and we can have a beer!
    You can possibly be a 4 or maybe it is just in your tri type rather than being your main enneatype, it's hard to say. I am Canadian btw so unfortunately our meeting can't happen. However, Canadians and Australians are known as being mirror images of each other. Also, if I ever happen to be in Adelaide in the future, I will make sure to give you a shout!
    We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand. Randy Pausch

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    Meatburger haven't read this whole thread but I am Aussie IEE Ne and so is Eliza Thompson. So funny the only oz people on here I know of are IEE Ne

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    Hey Guillaine, sorry for missing this. Which part of Aus are you from?

    I'm heading to Pax Australia in melb this year with an EII-Ne guy i haven't seen in years. Should be pretty fun. I went to AvCon with my ILE-Ne friend and the lack of Si was eye opening. The people were so torn from reality it gave the whole convention a weird vibe. I'm really accepting of all people but these people were so nerdy they were on another planet. I think pax wont quite be as bad
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

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    Welcome back, meatburger. I recognize that bull.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Welcome back, meatburger.
    Hey there Abbie! Have you always been Director Abbie? I feel so rude but my memory is failing me. Hows things?

    I recognize that bull.
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    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    Hey there Abbie! Have you always been Director Abbie? I feel so rude but my memory is failing me. Hows things?
    I'm one of the rare forumites who has never changed usernames.
    We didn't interact much though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    I'm one of the rare forumites who has never changed usernames.
    We didn't interact much though.
    Yeah i had a look and it didn't seemed like you had. Have you had the same avatar all this time as i do remember that. Pleasure to interact with you now anyhow
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

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    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    Hey Guillaine, sorry for missing this. Which part of Aus are you from?

    I'm heading to Pax Australia in melb this year with an EII-Ne guy i haven't seen in years. Should be pretty fun. I went to AvCon with my ILE-Ne friend and the lack of Si was eye opening. The people were so torn from reality it gave the whole convention a weird vibe. I'm really accepting of all people but these people were so nerdy they were on another planet. I think pax wont quite be as bad
    Hey, I'm from sydney and live in Melb. How about you? Hope you have a great experience travelling with your mirror. I know that warped feeling of too much Ne lol! One of my fellow teachers is ILE. Know idea what PAx is but enjoy!

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    Why do people always want to use socionics to try to fix their problems? It seems like it's inducing them. Aushra seemed like she wanted to use it to optimize people's strengths instead, like that StrengthsFinder test you'll probably get if you do a leadership event/workshop but for Soviet Russians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    Why do people always want to use socionics to try to fix their problems? It seems like it's inducing them. Aushra seemed like she wanted to use it to optimize people's strengths instead, like that StrengthsFinder test you'll probably get if you do a leadership event/workshop but for Soviet Russians.
    I have to respectfully disagree, i think socionics is great for solving problems.

    Car broken / toilet blocked - call ISTp
    Sex life bad - ask an ESFP
    struggling at your maths homework - INTP
    need someone beaten up - ESTP
    Need to know how to cook something nice for an upcoming event - ESFJ
    Just had a family member die? call an INFj
    What the hell was Immanuel Kant talking about? - refer to INTj friend.
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

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    I haven't read all this thread as I said but you sound like Ne subtype to me Meatburger. Also you were questioning whether you could be an e4 because you don't feel artistic. As far as I am aware it's more the DNCH that influences that so H and C types more drawn to the art, so it's still possible to be an e4 with a D or N subtype and less drawn to that, as far as I know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guillaine View Post
    I haven't read all this thread as I said but you sound like Ne subtype to me Meatburger. Also you were questioning whether you could be an e4 because you don't feel artistic. As far as I am aware it's more the DNCH that influences that so H and C types more drawn to the art, so it's still possible to be an e4 with a D or N subtype and less drawn to that, as far as I know.
    Hmm. I'm definitely more changeable (some would have said neurotic in the past) than other IEE-Fi girls I've met. The part of the Ne subtype description that most fits me is regarding changeability. I can be very confident one day, shy the next, outgoing, quite excitable etc. Lately i've been the space cadet type. I have made an effort to totally let go of control in my life and while its working fantastically well, i've noticed i'm way more scattered leaving the car lights on forgetting stuff etc.

    If Zach Braff and Tobuscus are indeed IEE as opposed to EII there is no doubt they use Ne more than me. Tobuscus for example is completely different to me, he seems to spurt out random shit constantly whereas i am far more measured with what i say etc. I'm typically more rational with the things i talk about which might point towards Fi.

    Ennegram did my head in a bit, 4 didn't really fit. 6 fit well in some aspects however i don't join groups or seem to subscribe to any belief systems to make myself feel secure. If anything type 9 fit the most with how interact with people but i don't ignore my problems. So i'd guess i am a 6w7 social subtype.

    You know what, who cares what i am. I'll just let myself be and see where it blows me! (or who blows me ).

    Pax is this http://aus.paxsite.com/features
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    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    .. I have this feeling that this girl is Si ISTp. It's kind of sad, as i might (although not sure) really need a Te type best. They seem rare too. .....Its really annoying, its like i'm dreaming of this ISTp being perfect for me while simultaneously knowing i'm probably deluding myself.
    Even if she turned out to be not right for you, it would be enriching to your life to get to know her. And if she is the less-perfect subtype, she is still the 2nd best of 32 types for you that is in your age group and more importantly, in your actual life. Odds are, you may not meet an eligible #1 type for you in your life that is available when you are, and is attractive to you. Just think of all the people who are in far less-perfect Socionics relationships and yet they have GREAT and very long forever marriages!

    In a relationship with her, if she was "2nd best", you would probably end up strengthening your Ne a little, and she would strengthen her Te a little. Like everyone else in a relationship, you would ADJUST in many ways to each other. It's still a dual relationship, and Dual relationships are the most healing of all relationships, simply because of spending time together. I can attest to this, for both my husband and I, married 4 and a half years now. It is always peace to be together. This is wonderful for you because you have had psychological issues (depression and anxiety) and this is so benefitted by a partner that is healing just to be present with. Plus she understands mental health challenges. And SLIs are so accepting. But SLI does need to know you are interested - you are the extrovert and need to show her some interest. Just suggest doing something together. Remember it takes time to establish a Dual relationship usually.

    (I did not read this whole thread so sorry if it is irrelevant bec. of new developments).

    _________

    I am skimming over this thread before I sign out, and read that you said, "my memory..." - which reminds me of an addendum I had meant to add to this post. Have you read about very low carb/high fat diet? It's not only for weight loss, though it is popular for that; it's for health on every level. People go on it and within a month are healed of depression and anxiety - among many other things like cancer! autism! (see The Magic Pill documentary on Netflix). Grains and gluten and carbs in general cause all kinds of havoc. I am reading Grain Brain right now, and it is really illuminating. It is reinforcing the very low carb/high healthy fat diet I was already all on board with. When I read your first post here, I thought of how a month into this cure-all diet could make you wonder if you even have these psychological issues anymore. Then you mentioned memory - it cures that issue too! My husband and I are very committed to this diet now, and I love the energy I have, and dependable clarity of mind.
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 10-10-2018 at 03:13 AM.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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