Results 1 to 11 of 11

Thread: Jung's Functions (Re-)Defined

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Olimpia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Europe
    TIM
    So/Sx Introvert
    Posts
    7,961
    Mentioned
    715 Post(s)
    Tagged
    8 Thread(s)

    Lightbulb Jung's Functions (Re-)Defined

    Following is my take on Jung's main concepts in Typology.

     
    Both MBTI and Socionics are merely interpretations of Jung’s ideas. Before there are any attempts at creating stereotypes of the 16 types’ observable behaviour, one needs to be clear on the definitions of the Information Elements or Functions. Otherwise, all key traits or stereotypes you pick up on will be misaligned and misattributed to the supposed behaviour of certain types.

    To reiterate, MBTI and Socionics are interpretations, and in that sense they can fail to focus on the pure essence of what the IEs or functions are truly about, depending on whose author’s description you come across.

    Jung himself was trying to grasp for the essence in his work. His own definitions of the IEs or functions was spotty and contradictory at certain points. But with the help and knowledge of both Jung himself and the two most well-known interpretations of his ideas, I find it possible to distill the essences from the IEs once and for all.

    This is not a task that is unique to my understanding; in fact, distilling the essences of the IEs or functions is surprisingly simple and straightforward. But for some reason, most people are too caught up in the descriptions of the aforementioned systems and fail to see the forest for the trees.

    Whenever there is a debate on whether someone values this IE or has this function or the other, the question should always come back to the essentials.

    The first question in this context must always be:
    Are we talking of Extroversion or Introversion?

    Jung was spot-on in his primary focus on Extroversion vs Introversion. It is the only concept that has found its way into popular psychology – for good reasons. It is the key to understanding the basics of the psychological types.

    Unfortunately, this simple core idea is often misunderstood by most. They either mistake extroversion for sociability, or somehow do not acknowledge any true distinction between I and E at all, assuming a stance of ”ambiversion”.

    Before we can head to the definitions of I vs E, I’d like to make sure you acknowledge that ”ambiversion“ cannot exist in the same time frame, only if you look at the sum of the parts. The parts themselves are either introverted or extroverted. Let me explain this concept in a very simple way.

    The window analogy illustrates the difference between Introverts and Extroverts.

    Imagine you stand at a window. There are two ways you can stand at it. Either you are inside the house looking outside, or you are outside looking inside the house. This is equivalent to introversion vs extroversion. The introvert looks outside from the inside, the extrovert looks inside from the outside. There is no way for someone to both look or be outside or inside at the same time. That is why true ”ambiversion“ is impossible. However, we are all able to either be inside the house and look outside or vice versa. In that sense, we can both have extroverted and introverted thought processes and experiences. But again, never at the same time.

    So as a whole, everyone is technically ”ambiverted“ – no one is a complete introvert or extrovert. However, we all have a starting point. Introverts always start from the inside looking out, and extroverts always start from the outside looking in. The extrovert can move to the introverted side by entering the house of his mind, and the introvert can step outside of the house in her mind. But again, the starting point is different, and that distinguishes the introvert from the extrovert.

    The same principle applies to the functions or information elements. Now that you understand this core principle, we can add the concepts of Sensing, Feeling, Intuition, and Thinking.


     
    Sensing is essentially the closest to the experience of physicality itself. Intuition, as its opposite, is the most divorced from the physical and the most abstract. Feeling can be closer to physicality in terms of emotional affect/effect, and Thinking can be closer to abstraction, for it is quite mental. Feeling and Thinking are each other’s opposites, or Yin and Yang, just like Sensing and Intuition are.

    You could say that Sensing is about bodies or objects, Feeling is about emotions or sentiments, Thinking is about logical thoughts and information-gathering, and Intuition is about ideas and insights.

    Let's look at one of the most famous analogies in Philosophy to illustrate the differences between the functions/Information elements.

    If you were in Plato’s cave, you could sense the shadows on the wall and gauge the size (and other physical traits) of the objects they are cast from, you could have a certain personal feeling about what you are seeing and express it with your voice and words, you could have certain thoughts about where those shadows originate from or how they are produced, and you could have an intuitive idea of what those shadows mean in the context of this place – for example, why you are only being shown shadows in the first place – or you could see forms in those shadows that remind you of other similar objects.

    When you apply the concept of introversion and extroversion to the four dichotomies above, they become more sophisticated and specified.

    Before we do so, I’d like to clarify the distinction between Perception and Judgment, alternatively called Irrationality and Rationality in Socionics.

    Perceiving functions/IEs, which are Sensing and Intuition, are mainly about the unfiltered experience of something.

    Whereas Judging functions/IEs, which are Feeling and Thinking, are mainly about the categorization of something.

    Now unto the 8 functions/IEs in more detail.






    Extroverted Sensing is about the experience of the externality of objects, their properties, their observable qualities. "This apple is red. This road is curved. This person is physically or psychologically strong." People who are good at Extroverted Sensing have a good grasp on the physical world and how to apply themselves in it. As they grow up, they gather more and more information on objects’ "pressure points", including those of people, who can be perceived by them as “special” objects in the grand scheme of things. That is how Extroverted Sensing is the most ”objectifying“. However, physicality is not only tangible, it also exists in the mind as some kind of idea. Extroverted Sensing has its psychological abstraction in the perception of power and influence. "How powerful is this person? How much power or influence do I need to extend? How can I viscerally influence this person in the best way?" Those questions will be asked and well-answered by people who are strong at Extroverted Sensing. People who are good at Extroverted Sensing can be good at pushing people or resisting outside pressures. They are strong inhibitants of their own external energy and space. If their Extroverted Sensing is quite strong, they are well capable at influencing and moulding the energy of others. In that sense, they can appear to be overbearing, especially to people who do not value Extroverted Sensing. People who are weak at and/or ignorant of Extroverted Sensing struggle with all the aforementioned. They tend to feel powerless when it comes to pushing other people or themselves, or on the other hand when it comes to resisting outside pressure.


    Introverted Sensing is about the internal experience of objects. Here, the focus is much less on what the objects are externally made of and how it has an impact on the outside world, but rather on how the subject(s) experience(s) said object. "This apple is sweet. This person’s hug makes me feel cozy. The bumps in this road are uncomfortable." People who are good at Introverted Sensing are intimately attuned to their physical reactions. They can also be adept at monitoring and improving the internal physical experience of others. That’s why physicians are typically good at Introverted Sensing. In MBTI, Introverted Sensing is often attributed to a focus on the past. This is because we humans gather information about how objects affect us internally over time, and our body’s internal memory will recall said experiences for us when necessary, mostly unconsciously, though someone who is strong at Introverted Sensing can be more aware of this. For instance, unless you have personally tasted milk chocolate in the past, you would never know how it tastes in your mouth and whether you like the taste or not. Though someone who is good at Introverted Sensing may be able to anticipate the personal experience of that milk chocolate, likely in comparison to other past experiences with objects that are similar to milk chocolate. On the other hand, if you saw a food that you had a negative experience in the past with, you'd automatically start feeling icky inside. "How is this physical experience going to make me (physically) feel? What kind of internal effect does this have on others?" The same applies to smells; memories and smells are closely interlinked in the brain. Introverted Sensing people can be strongly attached to certain smells that evoke certain memories in their minds and feelings in their bodies. People who value Introverted Sensing are concerned with inhabiting a body that is in physical equilibrium, without any aches or pains, or any feelings of discomfort. They can be overly concerned about their health status and can easily become depressed if their health is suboptimal to their standards. That is also why they can be quite particular about certain foods, smells, sounds, and similar. People who are weak at or ignorant of Introverted Sensing often misread or ignore the signs of their body and fail to nurture the physicality of their own or that of others.


    Extroverted Feeling is about the categorization and employment of external, observable feelings and moods of people. Just like people who are strong at Extroverted Sensing observe the energy or power of people, so does strong Extroverted Feeling pick up on the emotional tone in human interactions; whether it is somber, or upbeat; and people who are strong at Extroverted Feeling are adept at changing or influencing that tone or mood to a desired outcome, or moulding their own expression to the most appropriate one in the particular situation. "Is this person sad or happy? Are those people more receptive to dark humour or slapstick? Which emotional tone or expression is expected of me here?" People who value Extroverted Feeling enjoy strong and clear emotional expression, which can be easily observed from the outside, like bright smiles and hearty laughter. This makes it easier for them and others to assess and judge the mood of the situation, all of which is of lower priority for people who value Introverted Feeling. People who are strong at Extroverted Feeling tend to ”wear their heart on their sleeve“. Their emotional state is unmistakable and can wear heavy on those around them. People whose first function is Extroverted Feeling may sometimes be accused of being similarly overbearing to Extroverted Sensing people, but not in the physical, but rather emotional sense. They may be too concerned with making the other person fit into the emotional atmosphere or adopt a certain mood. If that other person values Introverted Feeling, they might be offended by this. Because, differently to Extroverted Feeling, Introverted Feeling valuers are possessive of the properties of their own emotional state, and react negatively to anyone who tries to teach them ”how they should feel“ in a given situation. Extroverted Feelers tend to be mirrors, reflecting emotional states back to others, or moulding them to their own will. Whereas Introverted Feeling is more concerned with their own personal feelings or sentiments about a situation, and less about their emotional impact on other people, or the moods of others. As the window example illustrated, a person who is strong at Extroverted Feeling and who values it can be unaware of their own personal feelings in a particular situation. The feelings of the external world are of higher significance. People who are weak at Extroverted Feeling are disconnected from the observable emotional expression of others, and from the skill of influencing and categorizing them appropriately and automatically. Their own emotional expression is either subdued or poorly monitored, for example inappropriately over the top at moments that do not call for such.


    Introverted Feeling is about the personal assessment and internal sentiments about things, especially people. Its focus is less on the observable emotional tone of others around them and forming it to a specific outcome, but rather on the emotional effect the outside produces in the individual(s), and the judgment of such. People who are strong at Introverted Feeling are constantly evaluating how something makes them personally feel on a heart-basis. Introverted Feeling can be misattributed to Introverted Sensing, because internal emotions often are accompanied by physical responses; for instance, a sense of indignation can be accompanied by the flushing of the cheeks. However, the focus here is on the abstract idea of emotion, and not so much the physical internal sensation, nor the external observable reaction. Over time, Introverted Feeling develops a certain set of personal values, by which its user judges and measures every experience and person. "Do I like this person’s character? How much do those people like each other? How do I feel about this situation? Do they treat me like I want to be treated? How does this make me feel (abstractly)?" There are types who are both high in Introverted Feeling and Introverted Sensing (aka ISFx), and as a consequence ”feel the most“ internally on a regular basis. The boundaries between internal feeling and internal sensation can blur in their case. People who are strong at Introverted Feeling can be ignorant of the emotional tone or mood within a certain interaction. If something bothers them greatly, someone who values Introverted Feeling or who is both weak and uninterested in Extroverted Feeling might be inclined to ”spoil the mood” or be careless about it. People who are strong at Introverted Feeling are aware of Extroverted Feeling conventions, and may conform to them as long as they serve them and their personal agenda well. But they do not have any invested interest in the emotional atmosphere or facial expressions of others following certain objective standards. Their own judgment of situations can set them apart from the situation itself, making them separate from the experience of the emotional tone around them. People who are strong at Introverted Feeling have a clear sense of which emotions are theirs, and which emotions belong to others; especially if they do not value Extroverted Feeling. People who are Extroverted Feeling first often cannot see the distinction between their mood and that of others, because the two are so intimately intertwined for them. People who are weak at or ignorant of Introverted Feeling lack a solid formula by which they judge the character of others, which can make them get blind-sided by people who want to take advantage of them. They also have the tendency to ”hurt other people’s feelings“, which often happen to be people who are strong at Introverted Feeling.


    Extroverted Thinking is about the categorization and employment of external, (abstractly) observable logical information. Whenever someone employs Extroverted Thinking, their logic is assessing the objective reality of available information, and uses it to the best effect or desired outcome. A classic example of ”objective logical information” is facts. Facts cannot be logically refuted, they are ”objectively true”. "This tower is 100 meter high. This sea is 50 feet deep. This person weighs 60 kg. The capital of Germany is Berlin. Water is also called H20." A person who is strong at Extroverted Thinking has a natural talent at assessing and collecting a lot of facts and logical information of a practical nature, by which they can deal with the world in an effective manner. For example, if you know the weight of someone, you can calculate their BMI, which in turn can give you more information about their level of health or mass distribution. In that way, Extroverted Thinking can overlap with Extroverted Sensing, for both are dealing with the objective realities of primarily objects. However, Extroverted Thinking is ultimately much more abstract and ”mental” than Extroverted Sensing. It has no direct connection to the physical experience of power or energy or tangible objects. For example, the fact that Berlin is the capital of Germany does not require for the person to actually be physically present in Germany to ”experience” or know that piece of information. Furthermore, Extroverted Thinking requires a logical framework that is typically preset by a consensus, like it is the case with measurement tools. Extroverted Sensing is way less bound to logical constructs. People who are strong at Extroverted Thinking are typically good at acquiring all the information necessary to deal with situations in the outside world which require logical application (opposed to physical, emotional, or intuitive). Additionally, people who value Extroverted Thinking are quite critical of any information that does not adhere to objective standards of logical truth, for instance any theory that is not backed up by proper research and proof, or at least first hand experience of cause and effect. Whereas people who are weak at or ignorant of Extroverted Thinking often lack practical know-how or do not use it as effectively, nor are they concerned with logical information fitting into an external standard of measurable traits.


    Introverted Thinking is about the subjective categorization of logical information. Someone who is strong at and values Introverted Thinking can be aware of the standards set by Extroverted Thinking, but they are much more attached to their own subjective assessment of logic. They favour models (like Socionics) which make sense of the world, especially in a way that connects facts (or even merely pseudo-facts) in an overarching framework and puts them into relation to each other, opposed to just knowing about the facts themselves separately. The focus is on the inner logical working of things and not so much their external properties and applications. "Does this sentence make logical sense? How does this machinery work? What is the reasoning behind this statement? Why does this person act this way?" People who are both strong at Introverted Thinking and Intuition often times lack the desire or ability to put any logical information or findings into ”work”. Differently from Extroverted Thinking, Introverted Thinking itself has no need for the practical application of logical information. The main focus is the logical understanding of the world. Introverted Thinking is even more abstract than Extroverted Thinking, for its connection with factual reality can be more loose; or rather, it is even more about models and constructs than Extroverted Thinking is. People who are strong at Introverted Thinking have a logical model or blueprint of the world in their minds, which needs to be continually updated as new information is being processed. Similarly to Introverted Feelers, Introverted Thinkers have developed a subset of personal standards over time, which however are not based on feeling but logic. An Introverted Thinker is constantly evaluating whether something makes logical sense according to their personal standards, and how the information fits into their blueprint of the world. If the particular piece of information does not fit into the blueprint and seems ”illogical”, it is quick to be rejected by someone who is strong at and values Introverted Thinking, even if some outside source suggests it to be factually true. In such situations, someone who values Extroverted Thinking will deem the Introverted Thinking valuer to be ”pig headed“ and ”unreasonable“. They cannot understand how someone could reject information that is ”true“ by objective measures. Extroverted Thinking valuers are more inclined to ”fact-check”, whereas Introverted Thinking valuers are more inclined to ”logic-check”, as in, whether this statement ”makes logical sense“ or not. "If A is red, and B is blue, and C is the mix of A and B, then C must be purple." People who are weak at Introverted Thinking have a poor assessment of logical connections between things, and no to few standards that are succinct at divulging the ”logical falsity” of statements. Those people are often times quite contradictory in their views and assessments of things, especially when it comes to logic; people who are stronger at Introverted Thinking can easily point out those logical contradictions. If the person who is weak at Introverted Thinking additionally does not value it, they won’t be concerned with those discrepancies, and instead emphasize the higher value of their Introverted Feeling judgments.


    Extroverted Intuition is about the experience of ideas which can be found (abstractly) in the external world. For someone who is strong at Extroverted Intuition, the world is a big playground of concepts and ideas that are constantly floating around them. Being one side of Intuition, Extroverted Intuition is one of the most abstract ways of processing the world. It can be difficult to grasp, for it combines two seemingly incompatible things: external objects and abstract ideas. With Extroverted Intuition, ideas can have objective properties and connections which can be acknowledged by others. In Socionics, Extroverted Intuition is tied to potential. And indeed, Extroverted Intuitives are quite good at ”seeing” potential (ideas) in objects and people. For someone who is strong at Extroverted Intuition and who values it, the potential (aka specific idea) of an object or person is part of its objective properties, hence (somewhat) tangible – potentially or abstractly tangible. "This table could be used as a nightstand, as a seat, as a place to leave all your papers on, as a place to put another table on top, or it could be deconstructed and reassembled to an abstract figurine that could resemble a human, for example if you use the four table legs as arms and legs, and so on…" Extroverted Intuition likes to concern themselves with questions like: "What idea does this object or person resemble? What is the potential (idea or invention) of this person or object? How are these seemingly separate things connected? How else could this particular thing or person manifest or express itself?" For someone who values Extroverted Sensing, an object does not have certain objective qualities unless they are fully realized and observable. That person may acknowledge the potential, but unless it is realized, it has no special meaning. For someone who values Extroverted Intuition, the potential of the object itself is enough to be enticing and of value. Extroverted Intuitives are ”ideas people“ and like to bounce off any novel concept against each other, and around others, for their and other’s entertainment. Extroverted Intuitives like to draw their ideas from many different sources. They can see how things resemble each other and overlap (abstractly), easily. They are also the kinds of people who are the most likely going to invent a new concept or idea or object or mode of living. People who are weak at Extroverted Intuition tend to fail at seeing the myriad potential possibilities of how situations, people, and objects are, could be, or turn out as. They also tend to be rather stuck in their ways and have difficulties with creating new or improved concepts or ideas or philosophies.


    Introverted intuition is about the subjective experience of ideation. Just like Extroverted Intuition, it deals with the abstract ideas of things, however differently from Extroverted Intuition, the ideas carry a personal or deeper meaning for Introverted Intuitives. The subjective idea cannot be divorced from the person who saw and recognized it. That is how it can be difficult for Introverted Intuitives to make others “see” what they are seeing. It is as if the Introverted Intuitive sees the world through a special kind of glasses, and only if the other person wears a similar pair, do they see the world in a similar or compatible way. For Plato, within every object was the deeper idea of it, its purpose or meaning, the essence of what makes the object what it is. This is quite an Introverted Intuition way of seeing the world. "What is at the core or the essence of this issue/person/situation? What meaning or lesson can be extracted from this experience? How does this situation/person/object fit into the grand scheme of the world and my own journey in life?" Introverted Intuition being a personal interpretation of deeper meaning, it is tied to the subject. Just like an Introverted Sensing person has their own way of experiencing a certain food; an experience which might coincide with others’ experience, but at the end is entirely unique to their body – so does the Introverted Intuitive experience a certain idea or meaning all on their own. At its best, someone with strong Introverted Intuition can distill and ”see” the essence of something, their ”core”, and make that insight known to others. At its worst, strong Introverted Intuition loses themselves in a never-ending rabbit hole of endless navel-gazing ideation and ”soul interpretations”, with a poor connection to the tangible reality around them and an inability to put the perception of ideas into coherent words. Jung’s insights into personality types is a prime example of strong Introverted Intuition and high intelligence. In Socionics, Introverted Intuition is also tied to the observance of time. Indeed, the full ”inner being” of things and people does enfold over time. Once the essence has been recognized, it is possible to predict how this particular object or person will behave in the future. When that particular person or object is rather novel, the Introverted Intuitive will recollect other instances where a similar kind of essence presented itself to them, and compare how that essence played itself out over time in that other person or object. In that comparison, someone with strong Introverted Intuitive might be able to quickly extrapolate the future or path of that novel someone or object, however if the essence has not been fully ”seen” yet or the link is too weak (which is typically dependent on their other Ego function; for instance, Introverted Intuitives with Extroverted Feeling are much better at predicting people’s behaviors than those of objects or impersonal situations), errors may come up. Similarly to how sometimes the exact reactions of a body might be unpredictable, so is the experience of essences and ideas difficult to grasp at will. It is not unusual for an Introverted Intuitive to have the clearest and best insights in a state of mental ”flow” or meditation, where there is no particular focus on constructing a thought or idea. Instead, it is like a tiny voice suddenly whispering wisdoms and words of guidance into your ear, seemingly out of nowhere. People who are strong at Introverted Intuition typically inhabit this inner voice of wisdom from an early age, and it becomes even more powerful as time moves on, as does every skill or talent does with repeated practice and use. People who are weak at Introverted Intuition tend to struggle with recognizing the deeper meaning, significance, or essence of objects, people, and occurrences. They tend to feel lost in the web and flow of life.


    The original versions can be found on my site.
    Last edited by Olimpia; 07-30-2018 at 03:18 PM.
    New Youtube [x] Get Typed! [x]
    Celebs [x] Theory [x] Tumblr [x]

    *********** 21-04-19:
    "Looks like a mystic that just arrived to battle and staring out at the battle, ready to unleash"



  2. #2

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    13,331
    Mentioned
    1265 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    seems this is needed to rationalize for ESE to think herself as IEI
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

  3. #3
    Olimpia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Europe
    TIM
    So/Sx Introvert
    Posts
    7,961
    Mentioned
    715 Post(s)
    Tagged
    8 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    seems this is needed to rationalize for ESE to think herself as IEI
    ad hominem

    What do you actually think of what I've written? I care way more about that than your typing of me.
    New Youtube [x] Get Typed! [x]
    Celebs [x] Theory [x] Tumblr [x]

    *********** 21-04-19:
    "Looks like a mystic that just arrived to battle and staring out at the battle, ready to unleash"



  4. #4
    ooo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    the bootie
    Posts
    4,050
    Mentioned
    300 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    very good! also lol at the length of Ni

  5. #5
    ooo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    the bootie
    Posts
    4,050
    Mentioned
    300 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I liked the analysis of Fi + Si types.

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    TIM
    Sanguin Spiritualist
    Posts
    237
    Mentioned
    21 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I appreciate your effort. You are trying to add substantive information into the discussion vs. making shit spots or regurgitating the same mumbo-jumbo as everyone else. With that said, you are not correct. 1) You didn't define introversion and extraversion. Your explanation is very good but you it's still an explanation and not a definition. 2) You definitions of perception and judgement are messy. 3) Likewise for S/N, T/F.

    I'll give you a hint. 1) I/E have nothing to do with the external or internal world but rather regulate the interaction of the functions themselves. 2) Only the perceptions functions can acquire information and only the judgement functions can make decisions. Hence this is incorrect. "Extroverted Feeling pick up on the emotional tone in human interactions." Fe cannot pickup on anything, only Si or Ni can do that. This is a direct result of clearly defining P/J. 3) You want to think about what you are trying to explain. You want to explain the blocks, not the functions.

    One last thing, I don't think I/E is the most important dichotomy. I think aristocrat/democrat is the most important.
    Last edited by domr; 07-30-2018 at 03:44 PM.

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    TIM
    Sanguin Spiritualist
    Posts
    237
    Mentioned
    21 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Your goal is to explain Model A.

    The big contribution of Augusta was that she codified the blocks. Jung's original model was focused on I/E + J/P. Augusta said, "every J function is paired with a P function and the mind constituents of 4 such blocks." This was her big innovation, every function is NOT separate but paired together. So at a fundamental level, you need to explain:

    NiFe
    FiNe

    TiSe
    SiTe

    TiNe
    NiTe

    SiFe
    FiSe

    and you can generalize this further. You need to explain

    PiJe
    JiPe

    This is your goal. If you can do this, then you have solved the puzzle. Defining the function is the base of this analysis. So defining the functions isn't good enough because anyone can define the functions however they want, and most do. The only way to trust that your definitions are correct is by using them to solve this problem.

  8. #8
    Olimpia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Europe
    TIM
    So/Sx Introvert
    Posts
    7,961
    Mentioned
    715 Post(s)
    Tagged
    8 Thread(s)

    Default

    Thanks for your input @domr.

    I don't think it is necessary to go through the entire Model A in order to type someone.

    It can be useful, sure, but at the end of the day all you gotta do is type someone's Ego functions and the rest solves itself. (Followed by typing the other valued IEs. That's how MBTI's function stack can be practically quite effective in a more simple way. Model A just adds more nuance and potentially deeper understanding of how a type works. As a downside, it can complicate things unnecessarily, especially if you have troubles with understanding or applying it.)

    I was not trying to explain Model A (though I am on the edge of doing so whenever I mention things like "people with strong XYZ"), but really just tried to give an updated version of Jung's own writings and distill what I deem to be the "truth" of the IEs undisturbed by extra erroneous information.

    Thinking about your point of Judging IEs not being able to "perceive" anything... I tend to err on the side of thinking that this distinction is too strict. I am leaning towards the view that the judging functions cannot be divorced from the perceiving ones to some extent, and that the perceiving ones do not "pick up" on something without their influence.

    For instance, Ni or Si itself won't "pick up" on an emotional atmosphere that well if their Fe is only 1D. Hence the interplay between Judging and Perceiving is more closely tied together than it may seem. I suppose the same applies to how Perception itself works; there is always going to be some kind of "judging filter" in the background.

    An Ni ego person who also has Fe in their Ego is going to focus more on human dynamics than someone with Te in their Ego, and that influences the observations they arrive at.

    So at the end, it is a matter of which of the two predominates: Judging or Perceiving. But the two are closely interlinked in someone's psyche, and that is why it is technically necessary to include tiny tidbits of perceiving or judging lingo when explaining each IE's everyday usage.
    Last edited by Olimpia; 08-04-2018 at 08:20 AM.
    New Youtube [x] Get Typed! [x]
    Celebs [x] Theory [x] Tumblr [x]

    *********** 21-04-19:
    "Looks like a mystic that just arrived to battle and staring out at the battle, ready to unleash"



  9. #9
    Olimpia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Europe
    TIM
    So/Sx Introvert
    Posts
    7,961
    Mentioned
    715 Post(s)
    Tagged
    8 Thread(s)

    Default

    The aristocrat/democrat dichotomy appears to be problematic if you know about Enneagram. The Social instinct makes anyone more aristocratic in outlook. And being Social last makes people more democratic in outlook. It doesn't even matter what their true dichotomy is, this instinctual focus is quite powerful. Hence I find this dichotomy problematic, and often times misleading. It's better to focus on the essentials or another Reinin dichotomy if necessary.

    I find the Merry/Serious dichotomy more useful, though it also has problems: certain Enneagram types, like 7 and 3w2, usually come across as "Merry" without the person necessarily being so. But there are also Socionics related misleading traits, like Fe Dem can often come across as "Merry" in everyday interactions, and Fe seeking (because of its weakness; especially if the person is Ti subtype) can easily come across as "Serious".

    But as long as you know about those limitations, you can apply the dichotomies. However, most people seem unaware of those pitfalls, and that leads to unintended mistypings...
    Which could be avoided if the person simply studied the Information Elements and typed someone's Ego and other valued IEs.
    Last edited by Olimpia; 08-04-2018 at 08:23 AM.
    New Youtube [x] Get Typed! [x]
    Celebs [x] Theory [x] Tumblr [x]

    *********** 21-04-19:
    "Looks like a mystic that just arrived to battle and staring out at the battle, ready to unleash"



  10. #10
    falsehope's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    TIM
    ILE ENTp-Ti
    Posts
    438
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Well in overall it manages to create some idea of what IE are. The best part is when there's description of how the person behaves when has the given function weak.
    But this should be a bit shorted because when you go into details you sometimes are biased towards certain quadras. IE never work alone, it's just the theory. In practise it's the types who can be observed. And according to my observations, IE manifest differently in each type so it's better to make type descriptions than IE descriptions, and then assign certain behaviour to IE in that given type. And for same IE from different quadras the differences are so huge, that they could be classified as different IE, so because of that description of single IE needs to be very general and short without going into details.
    By assigning certain behaviour to certain IE in the type is a lot more accurate and useful but only when you observe some things which are truly are mostly done by the given type. Example with Se and apples is not good one because everyone can recognize the colour of the apple and you don't need to be Se ego to do it nor Se egos better recognize the colour. It's just too simple. To do something like that, you need to socialize with geniuses ;-) Smart people who are mature and utilize their IE to the full extent, often to the genius levels no other type would be ever able to achieve what they do, because of their extraordinary abilities, motivation and effort put into this. With young and dumb crowd it's easier to measure how their weak IE are working ;-) hehe
    Last edited by falsehope; 08-04-2018 at 05:36 PM.

  11. #11

    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    TIM
    Sanguin Spiritualist
    Posts
    237
    Mentioned
    21 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by falsehope View Post
    Well in overall it manages to create some idea of what IE are. The best part is when there's description of how the person behaves when has the given function weak.
    But this should be a bit shorted because when you go into details you sometimes are biased towards certain quadras. IE never work alone, it's just the theory. In practise it's the types who can be observed. And according to my observations, IE manifest differently in each type so it's better to make type descriptions than IE descriptions, and then assign certain behaviour to IE in that given type. And for same IE from different quadras the differences are so huge, that they could be classified as different IE, so because of that description of single IE needs to be very general and short without going into details.
    By assigning certain behaviour to certain IE in the type is a lot more accurate and useful but only when you observe some things which are truly are mostly done by the given type. Example with Se and apples is not good one because everyone can recognize the colour of the apple and you don't need to be Se ego to do it nor Se egos better recognize the colour.
    Molecules vs Atoms.

    You want to be able to describe both the functions and the types. If you just describe types, yes you avoid the problem of misunderstanding functions but at the same time, how do you know the types (molecules) are being described correctly, when you don't know the functions (atoms) that make them?

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •