I know that this can be difficult. My own LSE mother wanted me to be a professor, since she was a grade-school teacher. I never did convince her that my choices in life were my affair.
I remember when I had some spare time on my hands and approached the local college to see if they wanted me to teach a course in an area where I have some expertise. They said Yes, if enough students signed up for the course.
I told my parents about this when I visited them, and I was amazed to find that they were suddenly proud of me. I mean, WTF? I had been out-earning them for years and that got me no respect. I was married with a family and a house and that got me no respect. This random side job made them proud. It kind of pissed me off.
It was just another step in the long path that eventually led me to the realization that I was never going to get their approval, so there was no point in trying.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 07-05-2018 at 03:39 AM.
@lemontrees, it sounds like you had it worse than I did. My upbringing was similar, my mother was physically violent and my father did nothing to stop her. I often thought of suicide, but I realized that that wouldn't hurt them that much.
Where I had it better was that they never explicitly said I was the bane of their lives. My mother saved that for my sisters.
I can easily understand why you have problems with your parents. My LII sister has cut off all contact with ours, and she's much, much better for it.
The sad thing is, neither of my sisters have children. I think they were subconsciously afraid that they would treat their kids the same way that they were treated. I know them both pretty well, and I feel that they would both have made great mothers. For one thing, they know exactly what not to do.
lemontrees, you are a good person and you deserve to be treated that way. If someone can't meet that standard, then they don't deserve your attention.
So the DNA created a vehicle that made it possible to have morality (such as consciousness and complex thoughts), but morality is an unintended side effect of that vehicle. Genes can create something that was not initially what was intended to do.
I totally respect and can relate to what you went through. My mom was pretty violent and emotionally abusive towards her children. My dad would scold us for complaining; he didn't just want us to be quiet, he wanted us to believe that she wasn't in in order to maintain his stupid fiction of having a well-oiled nuclear family. It sounds like you have/had it way rougher. I can also guess that being a girl from a traditionally male-ordered society makes them feel somewhat entitled to boss you around, which I know about first-hand but never had to deal with.
I wouldn't fret too much about losing your fertility. I may be being optimistic, but a technological solution that lets you have children later in life is surely on the horizon. And as usual, hard currency provides an elegant fix to life's problems:
The only problem I would have with the quote in the OP is that it sounds collectivistic. "Family first" type thing. Other than that, I can understand concern that a parent would have for a child that doesn't seem to be getting married and having children, since that is something that makes alot of people happy, but this should be done out of concern for the child's happiness not "group needs". I can't condone the fact that they are asking you to sacrifice your individual freedom for "the family".
grownups are children. our parents are abused children themselves. they matured physically but the abuse has not been processed, so it's a bubble that they are riding and we are therefore riding our own.
<3 lemontrees, I am sorry you have been abused. you are strong and don't quit. most people on this forum have had it rough, so it's hard to get your answers here, especially when it comes to family matters and related expectations.
have you ever discussed the abuse with your father or to agree upon a narrative with him i.e. your mother has been abusive but he never acknowledged that? make it clear that the goal is not to guilt-trip him but that it always helps to make things clearer for the sake of *~future generations~*. It is unlikely that you will agree in one sitting as these things take too much time to sink in and be fully processed. At least you will have presented something clear-headed instead of P2P (pain-to-pain). Actually, it is hugely likely that your dad carries pain from his past. Did he even want to marry your mum or did your mum even want to marry your dad? Not saying that these are things you need to bring up as I do not know your father's attitude. I do believe there is such thing as happiness but it rarely comes from a mindset of ''I've done this right so I feel good and I am now happy because I can stay in my bubble even longer''. Not saying that it is feasible to help them take a trip down the memory lane and stop the dysfunction. You will need help with that.
Part of my own narrative (and to empower myself) is that I am more privileged compared to my mum and dad. They did not have the internet and were not inquisitive enough to understand what they can change when it comes to family dynamics. Both of them took their thoughts at face value and thought they were doing good to their children. IMO, whatever can create space for fear must be avoided (Having our own binary thinking and maxims here and there can help, especially for people like us who've ended up being doormats/codependents for most of our lives). Our parents did not avoid this. Instead, they believed they were handing over valuable wisdom.
edit: i mean shame, not fear. or maybe fear of shame?
Last edited by kalinoche; 07-08-2018 at 06:22 PM.
honest labor needs no master
Nothing good is a miracle, nothing lovely is a dream.
Επί πάντων μέμνησο τα έσχατά σου, και ου μη αμαρτήσης
Hey lemon ^^
oddly enough I can understand your dad's concerns and I can see a good deal of love in it, but no doubt, if I were in your same situation I'd really be bothered and could even lash out if my dad were too serious about it all... but I wonder, hasn't he ever expressed those same sentiments before? It looks like those sort of ideas that an overly controlling/old-fashioned parent would instill in his/her only child when they're still young... but IDK.
I often have the same kind of concerns about myself, and the thought of my dad being left without any nephews really saddens me, because of the joy they could bring into an old man's life... but yeah, it would suck if HE had to say it.
Anyway, if you can manage to have a serious convo with your dad you should explain him your motivations, your worries for the well being of your kid, and you know, fertile years are not a rule, in my country women have kids very late, even around 40, and Idk if you know, but the older the mum is the healthier the embryos come out because there's more selection.
Your dad is just an asshole blaming you for his own failed aspirations. If he wanted to have grandchildren, he would have to get at least 4 children himself. If he could not do it like he could not afford it, he must deal with and don't blame others for it which is really dumb.
I have Fi but I don't see how your reaction is wrong or weird or anything. Like just reading that I was like "Is this person serious?" and if they are what do they expect, you get knocked up by the next guy you see just to appease their need for grandchildren? Please. Like to force someone to do something as personal as dating is ridiculous, this isn't like saying you need to find a job to take care of yourself, this is ultimately your choice and you can choose to not have kids for all you want. This sounds like an objective way at looking at something very personal and it just feels weird, like a robot talking about love, it just seems inappropriate. This is a more personal than objective zone. Next he's gonna tell you how to have sex for optimal insemination, like wtf lol.
But someone said they would laugh or something and I agree with that person, because this seems ridiculous, your are "behind" like this is a race or something. My attitude would be like get out of my face with that nonsense. Me having kids is a priveledge, not a requirement.
Last edited by Lord Pixel; 07-05-2018 at 03:33 PM.
All you need to do is be an EII, and his words and actions will make perfect sense to you.
I honestly don't understand how this sort of thing has ever solved any kind of problems. So why do people keep dogmatically believing in the "theory" of duality?
https://translate.google.com/transla...t.html&prev=_tOriginally Posted by A.Augustinavichiute
@lemontrees your parents don’t deserve you.
Have kids someday if you want to and never let them see them. Best revenge. Besides, will they make better grandparents than they were parents?
<3 <3 <3
LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”
Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”
LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”
As far as your reaction being exaggerated I would try to not judge yourself, if you feel genuinely hurt then that is valid.
I don't know if you would feel up to speaking about your feelings honestly with him, if you could tolerate whatever his response is. If so I would probably try to state that you felt hurt/pressured/intruded on etc by his comments and expectations, that you feel these topics are very personal and they are your private choices to make, and that you understand he would like grandchildren but you would appreciate him not pressuring you on the topic any more. Then he has an opportunity to listen and respect you.
If you can't bring yourself to do this that's ok. Then if he ignores and brings it up again I would say clearly but blandly I don't want to talk about it. Just say it like it's about something meaningless. If it continues again I would change subject, get busy etc but NOT react emotionally which only rewards him for prodding, just go "grey rock" as they say and pretend it means nothing to you. He will give up if you do this consistently.
Privately I would try to develop a strong self-esteem and sense of your own beliefs and self-love so that his critical tone and comments are offset with something louder within you. Your life and choices are yours and you will have to face the consequences of them, no matter what he says.
You probably do this stuff already but that's what I would do.
I know that "you are a member of this family" sentence. You are and you also are a member of the human family don't forget there are people who will love you for exactly who you are, kids or no kids.
How could Socionics possibly explain his behavior? Are you supposed to say, well since I'm his conflictor, I'll never understand him and he'll always be an ass to me, but to his dual, everything will simply make perfect sense?
What could possibly be gained by saying that it's due to his Te or Fi valuing or whatever? It has explained absolutely nothing. And yet his behavior could be perfectly explained from the view of evolutionary biology (among other things). The explanation is enlightening and it makes us understand him and his behavior better.
And I'm pretty sure you don't need to be his dual to understand his POV from evolutionary biology.
Adam Strange said is probably correct. His Te making an objective statement and his 1D fi not seeing how that hurts someone. This seems to explain it to me. His dual would probably see this behavior and try to correct him on it, saying it's not "right" to say that or whatever. Not that his dual would be perfectly fine with the statement, but his dual being Fi 4D would provide Fi correction to his harsh Te/Fi 1D nature, and potientially ( due to socionics dual theory) his suggestive Fi would receive the correction well. But who knows, the guy still made an asshole statement, so, I mean, it can all be explained as either he's an asshole, wants his genes to survive like you said, or he has little Fi and can't clearly see what's wrong with saying that to someone, or a mixture of all 3.
Obviously, people would likely be less offended by what he said, if you could see where he was coming from. That has been enlightened by the explanation from evolutionary biology. Being offended has nothing to do with the fact that someone is his conflictor or not.
Did he say what he said, because he's an LSE? No, he was just doing what any typical male species would do, under his circumstance. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that he's an LSE.
It's cute how easily conflict can arise between duals ^^
but yeah, I can see behind his intentions too, I think in a pretty similar way... 'neway, it would be beyond my level of tolerance to hear that coming from someone else, and that's due to culture and upbringing, since I've never heard such a suggestion before and the world around me doesn't think like that... but in other parts of the world, or just not too long ago, that was actually a norm, quite unsurprisingly
There's something very paradoxical about Socionics. "The more I understand him, the more I become offended by him, because it becomes more likely that he's my conflictor!".
But obviously, understanding would imply being more enlightened, which would make you less offended by the fact that you are understanding things better. You don't get offended, if you could understand.
Which would imply that there's actually no understanding being furthered under Socionics.
What was actually happening was that you were introspecting the fact that you were feeling offended by this person, not that you have discovered some sort of an objective interpersonal relational law.
Which is another paradox. "Certain relationships will always conflict" is an impossibility. If you could discover why the relationship is conflicting, then you will also discover a way to not conflict, because you understand why the relationship is conflicting. This is sort of the paradoxical nature of human consciousness, and the fact that we can consciously choose to change things.
Last edited by Singu; 07-05-2018 at 06:39 PM.
in general there are norms: normative functions check creative ones... creative ventures some risk, norm decides whether its down, sometimes the creativity is enough to get the normative one "on the same page" in a way they wouldn't have thought of themselves (and into some fun)... 1d functions require special skill to compensate for, because technically there is no bringing them up to the normative level. the interaction between 1d and 4d functions has a high degree of individuality, this is why sometimes relations can be very much interfered with by 3rd parties, especially beurocratic instutitions. they want to impose a normative structure on the interplay, viewing everything through a rigid form of "propriety" not realizing what seems outlandish and even criminal to them may be exactly what is needed. this is where the "duals sometimes look like they're fighting but they're really not" thing comes from. a good example of duality was ww2 america and japan (macarthur and hirohito, at least). a lot of the brutality comes from Se valuing, when viewed from outside seems utterly unconscionable and cause in of itself for rejecting duality as "real", since the theory goes "this cannot be right"--this is where Jung comes back into the picture, where he says the evil resides in us on a very deep level
And yea people want their genes to survive I get that, still the statement is offensive even if I understand that. This topic isn't asking whether what he said was offensive or not, it's asking how someone would react. I think if you look you can find the socionics in there eve if other factors are at play.
If you understood the theory of evolution, then you would be less offended by what he said, because you would see where he was coming from. It's like you don't get "offended" by a dog barking, because you know that's what dogs do, perhaps it's just trying to protect its owner or something, so you don't take it personally. But if you were ignorant of dog behavior, then perhaps you would be offended. And if a dog barks at you, you don't say that dogs are your "conflictor", or even that particular dog is one. You don't say, well you and dogs just weren't meant to get along.
So why would understanding him better, make you more offended? If you could understand why a relationship conflicts, then you would also understand how the relationship does not conflict. So why would understanding the conflicting nature of relationships, not give you any knowledge for the relationship to not conflict?
The only answer to that is, it's because you didn't actually find the real reason for the relationship conflicting.
I feel like you are addressing some parallel argument or something, because this isn't anything I said really. Perhaps some argument you had with someone who automatically assumes anybody they get offended by is their conflictor. Not the case for me so....yea.
I understand what you are saying, my issue is I understand the man's intentions but I also understand why what he said could be taken offensively. It completely overlooks the emotional involvement in dating and shoots directly to child rearing, as if this was some simple task that his daughter needs to complete (regardless of her well being, regardless of her personal choice.) This can be offensive to treat someone as if they are a means to an end, a goal yet to have been met, an object or objective so to speak. What would have been less offensive his to express is desire to have grandchildren and further his family without the time requirement placed on his daughter, and her freedom to choose, even if he wants her choice to be his own. Support to having children is needed in this scenario, not demand. But yes I can see how any father who had one child would want that child to have grandchildren since that's their only shot at furthering their family another generation.
This statement is a simple case of too much of a T response on a F topic. To me it seems that simple really. "Get knocked up already so the family can continue." Completely leaves out the emotional labor/stress/involvement that comes with dating and finding a trustworthy partner to have kids with. That is why it's offensive (hurting is more of a correct term), regardless of his intentions. This is no different from just visiting a sperm bank.
EDIT: I just realized maybe you are saying this isn't an Fe/Fi problem.
Last edited by Lord Pixel; 07-05-2018 at 07:53 PM.
@lemontrees If he demanded such “family values” to be upheld by you, where was he in fulfilling his share of that before as a father who should have been protecting his loved ones from abuse? From even an Fi point of view, I’m sure it’d be pure hypocrisy.
Even unhealthy LSEs usually subconsciously are seeking Fi atonement, so they are essentially waiting for their environment to berate them even if on the surface they’re acting like assholes and smiling doing it. You need to be their little pseudo-caretaker and teach them how to treat you when they’re like this.
One of the reasons I came back was just to say this. You’re special and I’m sorry you had to go through all that for all those years And you may not feel like it always but you’re much stronger than those who haven’t gone through such adversity. There is no excuse for what you went through and for the emotions your family is stlll putting you through now, not being an immigrant family or anything else. Knowing to an extent coming from an immigrant family myself, LSE “tiger mom” etc. — that’s more a copout than anything else when they play that card. Enjoy your life now and it’s beautiful and inspiring to see you seem unperturbed by your own abuse and know you can raise a happy and healthy family yourself when the time is right It’s also nice to see so much positive support coming on this thread. A nice change.
LSE seek the info about what they may do better in Fi, but not in the painful format. It should be done softly. In other case LSE will close to you his weak Fi and will not care about your opinion. Suggestive function needs tender relation so the info was accepted, as people protect this weak and important region against alien shit.
I didn’t know there was a soft way to tell someone how much of an asshole they’re being. Guess that’s why I’m not EII but IEI.
Edit: There have been plenty of good things in my life, I was in a bad mood the other night and over-focused on depressive episodes.
@xerx I watched that video before, guy seems like such a tool.
Thanks @ooo. That helps me remember that people are really scared of loneliness in old age. I forgot b/c my own fantasy is of reading, and writing my thoughts down into long essays - lol.
@kalinoche You’re right, I don’t think they get emotional needs met in the marriage so there’s a craving to connect elsewhere. What you said is part of my narrative too. As for the non-P2P talk - I’m scared of it (!), I think I’m afraid that if I lose the right to resent them I suddenly have to be a much better daughter, and plus my mom is scared of having straightforward talks too (E2), so I don’t want to result in guilting her into pleasing me. I want to be a little bit more present while also displaying firm boundaries. But, good reminder that I can say small things without having to say everything all at once.
@golden <3 <3 <3
They are a lot more sweet these days, I think they wouldn’t hurt someone if you were just spending time w/ them casually. (Maybe?)
@Guillaine Thank you for your support.
@aster Thanks for your sweet message. It helps to know that you didn’t have a strong reaction to the original quote, b/c it confirms for me that my dad wasn’t trying to be hurtful. Yes, he has relatives overseas with a very different relationship to their families so he feels it’s a reasonable expectation.
@niffer <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 No, irl my big problem is not always showing up in personal relationships. So my posts were to remind myself as much as anyone of how to be a decent future potential mom. It’s good to remember though that there are definitely people who would have protected their kids in the same situation.
...you're right, it's a bit hypocritical
Last edited by lemontrees; 07-06-2018 at 08:31 PM.
I'll give my dad an adopted baby and let him take care of it.
Then I'll tell him,
I just had casual sex with one random guy. That's our baby. Please take care of it.
You can't likely find a way to explain to LSE that they have been insensitive and tactless and then have them understand and say, "Oh, I see, you are right, so sorry" because when they said it they we "just stating the truth" and how can anyone argue with that? Then they will just repeat their insensitive rubbish, which you sure don't want to hear again.
But you should briefly and curtly express your disapproval - "That is grossly inappropriate and unkind!" and walk away, de-gracing him of your presence, also not giving him a chance to say anything back, because there is NOTHING he can say. And be prepared to deprive him of the blessing of your presence ANY time he tries to bring up that topic again. He'll learn.
Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 07-07-2018 at 06:05 PM.
"A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........
"Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
attitude acceptable to today's standards." - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"
Thanks @Eliza Thompson - I don't think he was trying to be unkind, so I would feel uncomfortable giving that reaction
Esp in recent years, my parents have tried hard on my behalf - there have been happy memories too. Important to remember the love that is there.
I'm assuming the quoted part is what your dad said to you.
There's a part of the quote that I agree with and a part of the quote that I disagree with. As an anecdote, my partner is an LSE and she recently has been having some trouble with her sister, potentially SEI, about similar issues. The problem has been about her sister prioritizing other things over some scarce family time. While I (and my partner) would 100% agree with the last part of the quote; "You’re a member of this family. You can’t just think about yourself" (and I often state things in this same line of thought), the first part ("You are behind schedule on dating - it is your responsibility to have children") is incredibly rude. Having children is your own choice and your father has neither voice nor vote to push you to have them. If he's butthurt about not having his genes passed through generations, that's merely his own (sexist and self-centered) problem.
Last edited by Lluna; 07-11-2018 at 09:56 AM.
Students’ expectations and beliefs in their abilities are considered the second most important predictor of educational success. (It used to be considered the first, but it was eventually overtaken by “teacher efficacy.”) This comes from someone in the education world who has been surveying all studies of ed. for a long time. So yes.
The brain is not a computer, so the analogy takes you only so far. For example, how would you really make a hard distinction between hardware and software when it comes to the brain?
A single standardized IQ test is not considered a very good indicator of a person’s overall intelligence by the psychiatrist I studied that topic with. I’m glad it worked out for you, but maybe for some students it would have been very discouraging. On the whole I think it wasn’t an ethical use of the test. An ethical use is to determine potential strengths and weaknesses with the IQ test, and compare those results to the results of other tests and many other factors. It’s not meant to pigeonhole someone, but to fill in one piece of a whole picture.
Scienctists at this point still consider a significant amount of intelligence to be heritable. Just ime, I’ve been around a lot of babies and kids for a very long time, often in school settings, and from day one some are brighter. But I do think most people can do more than they think they can. It just will require more effort, and sometimes a more appropriate instruction method, like the “flipped” classroom. And schools are not very flexible in giving more time or tailored instruction to students who need it.
Otoh I have an acquaintance who was a NYC school principal and who quit the field because he concluded after a few years that the expectation that every HS student should be on a college prep track was misguided. Some, in his view, simply could not pass all the classes on that track, and it set them up to fail. (Whether this was about inherited vs environmental intelligence wasn’t the question.) This was not what he expected when he went into that career. His opinion eventually became that students should have the option, as they do in some other western nations, to follow a trade path instead. This was not snobbery on his part, it was him recognizing that there is more than one way to be intelligent and more than one way to succeed.
I’ve also learned to be wary of projecting a higher intelligence level onto people than they really deserve. My husband likes to quote a professor he had a long time ago: “the stupidity of people explains the world around you.” Fair amount of truth in it, though I prefer to think of it as ignorance.
LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”
Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”
LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”
I would say that no written test is a good indicator of how well one can do tasks other than doing tests. However, baby-boomers were subjected to a myriad of experimentation; there wasn't the insight that's available today although the boomers did provide a lot of today's insight.