EIIs-INFjs and falling into relations with the wrong people

[timber]

Actually, my hero will be nothing like Peterson. When you first meet the protagonist, you'll probably hate him, because I want you to realize that appearances can be deceiving. Good people can do bad things, and vice versa. Virtue signalling is never a good way to judge someone's character.

Oh I learned that lesson yeeears ago buds.

As to virtue signalling.. a say wa

[Guillaine]

I think Voldemort from HP, or the actor who plays him Ralph Fiennes anyway, is EII. Somehow not so scary, kind of evokes sympathy.

[Allegra]

Not sure that's a hard rule, I'm Ne sub type and e4w5 EII. I don't think it's Se dual seeking, because it's more emotional intensity for e4 that they are after not physical intensity, physical intensity just creates more emotional intensity, so thoughnti mmay look like they are after the former they are actually after the latter. They like anything intense, movies, book, some drugs, especially e4 sx first (look at Kurt Cobain). I imagine e4 sx first has the hots for an e8, since they both like intensity. So an e4 sx EII might definetely be drawn to an e8 SLE, and if they are sx first probably even more drawn to them. Like a "I suffer for love" sort of way. The suffering makes the relationship more intense, and the intensity seems to create meaning to an EII, since their most intense desires seem to guide them in life making them think they should chase the desire since it's so strong in them, this same thing causes them to go for a bad relationship, since the desire is so strong, they think it means they should go after it, even if it's an SLE. On top of that, if an SLE is actively pursuing this sort of EII, they are less likely to resist them and let it happen because the feelings are so intense they just let themselves get swept away by them even if it's a bad decision. This can all come tumbling down if their experience an inescapable pattern of abuse, they might leave them for their own safety at that point.

I dated an ILI I knew I should have not dated, all because the feelings felt deep, the ENTIRE relationship I felt like my brain was trying to tell me "You have to leave, you have to leave." and I eventually left, but if I did not give into my feelings I would have never gotten with them, since they had surgery to remove their fertility to have children and I knew I wanted to children, my dumb feelings embraced the relationship anyway.

Upon further reflection, I believe of the 2 EII's I know, one is balanced subtype Sp/So and the other Ne leaning So/Sx and the SLE's involved ranged from Se Sx/So to Ti So/Sx.

Both EII's, true to form, were repulsed by Se and staunchly demanded Fi before they were willing to go anywhere. The SLE's were only after cheap thrills and couldn't get what they wanted from the EII's.


Edit: what is it about your relationship with the ILI that didn't work out for you?

[Zero]

Take any PMSing #MeToo feminist, imagine them with political power, and behold! Your inspiration.

are you sure you are LIE?

[Zero]

I think Voldemort from HP, or the actor who plays him Ralph Fiennes anyway, is EII. Somehow not so scary, kind of evokes sympathy.

Come on Voldemort was EIE, obviously

[empineer]

I then why don't I encounter the same situation in SEE LII conflict?

I have recently witnessed that undeveloped SEEs get drawn to LIIs (specifically since a lot of LIIs are attractive and prestigious, opposite to ILIs) and stay like in a "full of daily based fight" relatinships with them and try to make it work by trying to understand LII, which does not work

[Lord Pixel]

Upon further reflection, I believe of the 2 EII's I know, one is balanced subtype Sp/So and the other Ne leaning So/Sx and the SLE's involved ranged from Se Sx/So to Ti So/Sx.

Both EII's, true to form, were repulsed by Se and staunchly demanded Fi before they were willing to go anywhere. The SLE's were only after cheap thrills and couldn't get what they wanted from the EII's.


Edit: what is it about your relationship with the ILI that didn't work out for you?

Besides the not having children aspect I wrote in detail about it in the ITR fails thread in infertype relations.

[justalitnerdxx]

I have been in a friendship for about 10 years which started out with a mutual enthusiastic giggly teenage girl obsession with the Twilight series and bonding over being bullied by the same ‘mean girls’ at school....but over the years this friendship has gradually become more and more stressful on both sides. My friend can be very blunt, rude even I dare say. Makes snide comments about other women and people who cross her in general. She has accused me of not caring enough in the past due to me suffering depression and not being able to muster suitable enthusiasm for a trip she was pushing me to do with her. Also called me out for going to college and ‘abandoning her’. Quite a few problematic events have happened between us though I have until now made excuses as to her attitude towards me; I have felt so consumed by guilt for being self preoccupied in regards to my mental health recovery and growth in my career. I thought that it was me being a terrible friend and that’s why she wasn’t happy . The reality is we aren’t compatible and have grown down different paths. But only now on distancing from her and having the objective input from other people, I can see how problematic some of her words and actions were. She’d blank me on messenger for days if I was upset or highly anxious and needed to vent, because in her words ‘you’re going in circles. I won’t speak to you until you stop worrying.’ I can see now that it was punishment for me not being how she wanted me to be...completely compliant with her wishes to talk about herself and her annoyances and problems.


I suppose I stayed so long because I am loyal to the bond we did establish at school; the joy of delving into fictional worlds to escape our tumultuous high school experience. She understood also what it was like to not be ‘a cool girl’: As time went on and I realised the clashes occurring, I guess I took all the blame on my chin and presumed it was me being overly sensitive, and that we’d patch up if I tried enough. Maybe the truth is for a long time I have believed I deserved to be treated like a doormat and a figure of fun.

[Spermatozoa]

are you sure you are LIE?

An LIE is my spirit animal and he gives me the primal energy to seed this forum with life.

[Spermatozoa]

Oh I learned that lesson yeeears ago buds.

As to virtue signalling.. a say wa

I say when, you say why, I say I don't know, because it could be anything, and we will just have to wait and see. Methinks your upbringing in the endless winter of Canada has probably frozen a bit more than your ass. The ice has relentlessly advanced into your soul, abrading and corroding its innocence to become so rigid that you fail to see any nuance within good and evil.

[timber]

I say when, you say why, I say I don't know, because it could be anything, and we will just have to wait and see. Methinks your upbringing in the endless winter of Canada has probably frozen a bit more than your ass. The ice has relentlessly advanced into your soul, abrading and corroding its innocence to become so rigid that you fail to see any nuance within good and evil.

Cute.

[Zero]

An LIE is my spirit animal and he gives me the primal energy to seed this forum with life.

animal?

[DirectorAbbie]

I love the simple moments of emotional "oneness" with others - from a sympathetic glance with a stranger to open vulnerability with a close loved one. (Fi)

I also tend to follow best-case-scenario paths in my head when it comes to people. Or at least the more positive ones, because those are what I want. Although sometimes I see a negative potential and prematurely shut down, too. But in general I like to think of people as being full of good potential and then I act as if that's the case. (Ne + positivism)

That reminds me of a comment from an earlier conversation: "it seems like with EIIs, how they feel about you initially is how they are going to feel about you for eternity lol"

I don't usually think of people's potential, but I try to think the best of people's current intentions and sometimes of their past.

Furthermore, once I attach to someone, I tend to stick with them even if they go through rough patches (introverted + static). And I do tend to think of bad behavior as stemming from unhealth that can be cured, or just moments of weakness. Part of that is changing anything in my life takes effort and I can be lazy in that regard. Part of that is also that I can get attached to an ideal of this person, and not want to let that go, both for my sake and for theirs (could be a form of Si seeking, in the sense that I desire holistic health for myself and others)

This reminds me of the aforementioned quote even moreso.

And I've had a few times where I've stuck with people longer than I should have.
I wasn't sure about it, but I did back off slowly. As I did, I noticed how she got clingier and it became more apparent that the people warning me were probably right. Once I completely cut her off, I noticed how my life got much better. It was weird because I didn't notice the nature of the relationship until after it ended. But I did learn from it (somewhat, heh).

I can actually relate to this part.

It takes me awhile to see someone differently, but once I do the change is more permanent and harder to alter.

Oh, more support for that quote!

LSEs can be very bossy, don't get me wrong. But healthy ones aren't usually in it for the sake of feeling powerful and dominating. If you tell them, "Hey, I'm feeling pushed around here," they'll more likely than not go, "Oh, sorry," and look confused and then try to adapt so you feel better. Provided, of course, that your feelings are valuable to them, lol. But if an LSE is giving customized advice, chances are they care about your feelings.

[Lord Pixel]

That reminds me of a comment from an earlier conversation: "it seems like with EIIs, how they feel about you initially is how they are going to feel about you for eternity lol"

I don't usually think of people's potential, but I try to think the best of people's current intentions and sometimes of their past.


This reminds me of the aforementioned quote even moreso.


I can actually relate to this part.


Oh, more support for that quote!

Wait wait so, you like her first quote? I know why I like Minde's first quote there, but it's just so hard to imagine ESTj liking that. Maybe I'm misinformed or just want validation lol. I think I'm stuck in the idea of ESTj being like "Ew, emotions, yuck!", perhaps a one dimensional view. But what Minde said was a deep emotional experience, and you liked it, and I'm just like .....0.o? Sorry if I'm calling you out or putting you on the spot, but if there are ESTj women out there that like that kind of stuff I just gotta know.

[DirectorAbbie]

Wait wait so, you like her first quote? I know why I like Minde's first quote there, but it's just so hard to imagine ESTj liking that. Maybe I'm misinformed or just want validation lol. I think I'm stuck in the idea of ESTj being like "Ew, emotions, yuck!", perhaps a one dimensional view. But what Minde said was a deep emotional experience, and you liked it, and I'm just like .....0.o? Sorry if I'm calling you out or putting you on the spot, but if there are ESTj women out there that like that kind of stuff I just gotta know.

She clearly described a certain sort of phenomenon that I couldn't put words to but is precious to me. Those moments are probably a lot scarcer to an LSE than to an EII. So with such limited experience an LSE might not know how to react to them. But it's like this incredible closeness within the quiet. And if the connection is announced, it could be damaged, like it's a fragile thing, like a souffle in the oven - okay, that's a bad example, because when I'm in such a moment I savor it, whether it's a connection that's glad or sad (and I think the sad ones are more likely to happen because then people let their guard down more).

Basically I'd say: yeah, we like it, but we don't talk about it. And loud emotions are yuck, but this is a deep subtle one.

[Lord Pixel]

She clearly described a certain sort of phenomenon that I couldn't put words to but is precious to me. Those moments are probably a lot scarcer to an LSE than to an EII. So with such limited experience an LSE might not know how to react to them. But it's like this incredible closeness within the quiet. And if the connection is announced, it could be damaged, like it's a fragile thing, like a souffle in the oven - okay, that's a bad example, because when I'm in such a moment I savor it, whether it's a connection that's glad or sad (and I think the sad ones are more likely to happen because then people let their guard down more).

Basically I'd say: yeah, we like it, but we don't talk about it. And loud emotions are yuck, but this is a deep subtle one.

Whoa......loooooooool. Sorry I am not laughing at you. I am laughing at the fact that what you described is very eerie to me. Very eerie because the words you used I feel like are the words I have tried to find to explain this phenomenon I have experienced and even wrote about here on the forum with a female ESTj. Specifically when you say "It's like an incredible closeness within the quite." I did not know that was real for other people, but yes that's exactly the phenomenon for me, closeness in the quite. I feel less special now and more like a product of duality lol, but I am glad this phenomenon is a "thing".

[Adam Strange]

EII on a date with the wrong guy:

At 0:45, she says, "Well, come on, big guy." But Elvis is not a Caregiver, sooooooo.......it's a No Go.

[Aramas]

I hope I don't offend anyone by my question, it's merely out of curiosity for how this can be explained in terms of Socioincs. I wonder why if a combination of Fi and Ne is supposed to give someone the ability to assess what others are made of, EIIs usually fall into relations with toxic and unhealthy people, and take no advice on this either. When they want to help a troubled person because they see potential in this person getting better and finding the right direction in life, if you point out the unhealthy traits of this new person and judge him/her, the EII will become defensive and mad at you, not realizing that you mean good and want to save them. Funny part is they often change their minds about that person after a while, and at each point have a very strong and sure opinion about others, not accepting others to change their opinion even by providing facts.

LSEs are supposed to be able to grab EIIs out of such relations, however seems the LIE looks judgmental and selfish in the EIIs eyes when doing the same.
EII is also one of the types most likely to be drawn to their conflictor SLE, admiring their strength and protective behavior (Stratiyevskaya), why can't they see what the SLE is made of in the beginning?

How is the LSE able to grab them out of these relations? They also seem to listen to tips related to health coming from LSE but not the LIE. For example if I remind them to drink water because they're going to be dehydrated or to take their vitamins, take a coat cause it's cold out, they'll just shrug their shoulders, but the LSE has more influence on them in this area.

Ne is idealistic and innocent. Se polr types are often some of the most unacquainted with "the cold, hard world." This doubles for the EII, who doesn't have the reality of Ti to fall back on to balance the idealism of Ne. In addition to all this, the EII is a positivist, so the type will naturally be more trusting.

I've had a lot of experiences with Se, and they were rather painful. I've gotten more aware over the years about who was and was not trustworthy. It's only through trial and severe error that I I've learned, though.

I haven't really gotten much experience with LSEs, so I can't tell you how they pull EIIs out if these scenarios. IEIs, even though they are quasi-identical to EII, tend not to have this issue at all. Their Ni tells them all about people and causes them to doubt them, and their Fe makes them aware that people often wear masks, because they do the same thing.

Your question isn't offensive really. It's a good question. I think the methods of the Beta quadra and Delta quadra are quite different. The Beta NFs want to identify and aggressively attack problems they see in others and society. The Delta NFs would rather build a simulacrum and live in it until it becomes reality. One method requires attention to problems, and the other, contrarily, requires ignoring them.

Ni prefers a crude perception of reality, because their intuition is introverted and serial. That means that it's basically a manual transmission. They have to be consciously aware of the bumps on the road of life to be able to handle them.

Ne, on the other hand, is extroverted and massively parallel. It's like an automatic transmission. Its smooth operation depends on unconsciousness and unawareness. Not knowing what the reality of the situation is, Ne passes through it.

If you want to understand the differences in the modes of being, just read Alice in Wonderland. The first time, just read it through, not too deeply. The second time, analyze why things happen in the order they do. The second approach will give you an Ni perspective, and the first an Ne. Let me warn you, though: the Ni approach with Alice in Wonderland can be fucking terrifying. What once seemed like a simple children's book becomes something completely different.

Or better yet: watch Alice in Wonderland for the Ne perspective. Read the book and analyze it like I said for Ni. The Ni perspective is more easily communicated through the book.

It seems like, no matter how much I've learned about the NiSe perspective of life, I'm still a few thousand years behind them. For other Ne egos out there, you have no idea what people are up to sometimes lol.

[Beautiful sky]

Ne is idealistic and innocent. Se polr types are often some of the most unacquainted with "the cold, hard world." This doubles for the EII, who doesn't have the reality of Ti to fall back on to balance the idealism of Ne. In addition to all this, the EII is a positivist, so the type will naturally be more trusting.

I've had a lot of experiences with Se, and they were rather painful. I've gotten more aware over the years about who was and was not trustworthy. It's only through trial and severe error that I I've learned, though.

I haven't really gotten much experience with LSEs, so I can't tell you how they pull EIIs out if these scenarios. IEIs, even though they are quasi-identical to EII, tend not to have this issue at all. Their Ni tells them all about people and causes them to doubt them, and their Fe makes them aware that people often wear masks, because they do the same thing.

Your question isn't offensive really. It's a good question. I think the methods of the Beta quadra and Delta quadra are quite different. The Beta NFs want to identify and aggressively attack problems they see in others and society. The Delta NFs would rather build a simulacrum and live in it until it becomes reality. One method requires attention to problems, and the other, contrarily, requires ignoring them.

Ni prefers a crude perception of reality, because their intuition is introverted and serial. That means that it's basically a manual transmission. They have to be consciously aware of the bumps on the road of life to be able to handle them.

Ne, on the other hand, is extroverted and massively parallel. It's like an automatic transmission. Its smooth operation depends on unconsciousness and unawareness. Not knowing what the reality of the situation is, Ne passes through it.

If you want to understand the differences in the modes of being, just read Alice in Wonderland. The first time, just read it through, not too deeply. The second time, analyze why things happen in the order they do. The second approach will give you an Ni perspective, and the first an Ne. Let me warn you, though: the Ni approach with Alice in Wonderland can be fucking terrifying. What once seemed like a simple children's book becomes something completely different.

Or better yet: watch Alice in Wonderland for the Ne perspective. Read the book and analyze it like I said for Ni. The Ni perspective is more easily communicated through the book.

It seems like, no matter how much I've learned about the NiSe perspective of life, I'm still a few thousand years behind them. For other Ne egos out there, you have no idea what people are up to sometimes lol.

Ne is also blindly hopeful, idealistic, and "what could be" "maybe it will lead somewhere" blind

[Beautiful sky]

No LSE are not there to grab EII out of bad relationships. LSE are not some savior hero deal. EII fall into bad relationships because they choose to be with a toxic person out of pity, out of hopefulness. EII will bypass all the signs of bad person for the hope of a prosperous relationship - this is where they will test the waters in order to build a closer bond. LSE are there to just provide a comfortable existence for EII and that they do well. Yes EII will date a conflict relations. My recent two EII friends, one was married to an SLE who she divorced with two kids, the other is seeing an LSE after choosing too many bad people to be around.

EII's are tolerant, and kind, so I can see this happening at least for a little while, and have seen it. But there is a self-preserving aspect of introversion whereby at least they can, or are aiming toward, getting some head space and reflect on their lives, and make choices, and know how they feel about what's going on, even if they don't feel they have the strength to stop it. IEE's can also get into lots of trouble in this way (my personal experience) because lack of awareness of how we are feeling, what we are thinking and what our body is feeling too. IN some ways I think extraversion can have a certain vulnerable side because it keeps exposing itself and the wrong person can take their optimism and future orientation for a long ride.

This
So are IEE

EIIs find themselves in bad situations because they idealize people and typically are less aware than average of the harsher side of human nature. They are too willing to see excuses as valid and they continue seeing people as good in spite of evidence to the contrary. Ne creative plus positivism makes for the most reality ignoring type in existence.

no not idealize a person. No one is perfect; but rather idealize the potential of a future relationship and bond. Idolize isn't the right word...looking forward to a lasting bond is.

[Beautiful sky]

It's not good, but the side effect of F types.

Logical side of the _objective_ reality is Te. My duals do not tend to ignore this like Fe types, as it's valued.
But all F types are weak in understanding it. Fi types may be more than average selective to positive sides in case they feel sympathy - it's not intentional, such happens due to weak T. The same but with negative selection happens for the ones to which they feel antipathy. If you point them on logical mistakes or the ways to improve in Te - the chance they'll accept your opinion after a time is higher than for Fe types.

As EII are N types, they understand people and situations good, in general. This softens this effect.
In case of ESI it's more evident - they are more surface, so show more of prejustice for good or bad. Partly ESI compensate this by being suspicious - they harder to like you, easier to be scared and may change the positive opinion to negative more abruptly. In the same time they have high self-criticism and compassion, so they may forgive you easier too, sometimes showing some naiveness which N types have lesser.

> Actually, since LSE's are incredibly grounded in reality, being ungrounded would not be a problem for the EII if they were dualized.

They'll have the conflict with the unconscious, which keeps Te and its facts which may contradict to what they think and such to create the neurotization.
The dual activates the supressed Te so it becomes easier to understand and to solve some of the conflicts, dual helps to solve himself and to reduce new conflicts, activation of supressed unconscious unleashes its energy for the conscious and you feel better.

> Sol, you owe it to some EII's to dualize with them and save them from a terrible life. Don't wait too long in this endeavor.

I may catch some ESI. Do not be greedy. EII appear to be harder to be found. For example, on the forums I did not noticed even one assured EII still, while as minimum 2 ESI women. I meet ESI sellers regularly, but EII seems hide in libraries, museums, etc. places my "grounded" soul visits much much lesser.
In return, EII may [partly] save me from problems of weak N and F, like not good emotions and redundant worries. Also the important plus of EII is lesser need in money by the principle "just now and more". But... mb the destiny thinks this would be too good for me.

> Truthfully, the EII whom I work with really, really likes the LSE whom I work with. He's strong and is a good man, and she likes that. Unfortunately for both of them, he is already married

If to assume the possibility they may to have other types, the situation will look as lesser sad.

If you listened to me you would find EII but you will not as long as you continue being antagonistic with me. Oh well your choice.

[Beautiful sky]

I'm not at all easily controlled by people. I do things willingly out of my heart. I'm my own woman.

[ShiningLunette]

Well personally i don't get attracted to toxic or bad people. I don't want a project to fix, but a partner able to give and take equally. But if the person gradually revealed their flaws and toxicity. I try to put a blind eye to it because of my Se polr. In some ways, i'd rather live this constructed happy fantasy rather than be able to deal with it realistically because then i need to confront reality and nothing i hate more than confrontation (also i have fear of abandonment so i cant handle ending relationships, i know it'll break me). So i tend to stick in bad and dead relationships, even if my needs or wants have been ignored. I would try to focus on the good from that person and ignore the bad in order to maintain my happy fairytale fantasy to remain relatively sane.

[Alomoes]

What is Se polr. Did I win the Jepordy?

If Se is ranking things by hierarchy, then lack of that means you're picking by some random whimsy you find attractive. That's dumb. It's like actually using astrology unironically to determine the person you live with until you or they die.

Oh and don't worry, they'll forget the reason and become bitter about it later for a similar random whimsy, so ye better be able to either remind them or have no irredeemable qualities that piss them off. And yeah, that is basically my dealings with my mum, who actually should listen to me a bunch more, but for the stupid reasons above, won't. Meh, she's figuring it out.

TL;DR Se POLR makes you oblivious.

[Shytan]

I think EII can get controllled and have a hard time detaching from SEE and other types because when SEE makes moral claims EII takes them seriously, more seriously than they should. SEE needs to be treated like an ILI would, which is to say if whatever comes out is not backed by an inevitable and undeniable form of force it can be criticized ignored or otherwise manipulated into the ground. EII doesn't want to do this and is therefore easily controlled. They constantly try to appeal to a conscience that isn't all there, or to put it more charitably, is guided by logical inputs not (alien) ethical ones. the EII can't countermand it with their program and ends up capitulating at their own expense. if they really wanted to get the upper hand on them they'd have to engage their super ego, which by definition is a kind of illicit move in their mind, a kind of thing they really don't want to have to do

I’m finding it very hard to detach from an SEE because he’s like a puppy, very in your face but adorable. Doesn’t take aversion or rejection as an answer, stays in contact and it’s fun playing around with his emotions just to see how he’ll react. He can be quite manipulative and has hurt me not once, but it feels so natural with him. I’m e4 EII, he’s SEE type 6w7.

[youfloweryourfeast]

I always attract SLEs for what ever reason and if they are healthy it is fine. If they are unhealthy and cruel it will be awful, I will become defensive and upset at them. Also EIEs as well, and never my dual or maybe it's just rare for me to meet my dual. To be fair I guess some si polrs advice may annoy us and LSEs approach might be more of trying to push it on us in a enthusiastic way with their ne. Maybe with LIEs it just comes off as harsh to us even if it's not their intention, that's just how we view it with their se.