syn/contra flow and flirting

[Guillaine]

I'm wondering if anyone has observed that these two flow types have differnet expectations when meeting new people, how they connect with new people how they flirt.

I'm currently trying to connect with someone who is in every way compatible on paper ie my dual compatitble subtype enneagram all of it but there is something not working. He is expecting/ needing a lot of warmth and smilingness that in my opinion is not essential and I am expecting more direct honesty and talk.
Of course we are two different people with differnt pasts and tastes etc but from my previous expereineces with contra flow tyoes like me it is very direct and dry and easy, it's very bland, there soen't need to be a lot of banter or wooing. Its just like "hey, you're cool/nice, wanna hang out, let's go" or something.
It's hard to explain.
What is your flow and what type of flirting do you like?

[Adam Strange]

I'm sx/so counterflow, but sx-first, and I think I can either seem disinterested or too sexually explicit. It's hard for me to see myself objectively, though.

If you are IEE sx/so, then your best match would theoretically be an SLI sp/sx. I think my ex-wife is SLI-Te sp/so, and let me say, she was incredibly inert when it came to dating. I had to be extremely forward but in a reserved way. Once, after going out with her for about two months, she invited me to her apartment for dinner and a glass of wine. We were sitting on the couch, talking, and I tried to kiss her and she actually picked me up and threw me out her door into the hallway. I figured that was the end of it, and if I had been smarter about dating or she less attractive, it would have been. But, I went home, cut a rose from a bush in my yard, returned and placed it under her windshield wiper along with a note of apology and a statement that said I hoped we could still be friends. I was a patient idiot, but she seemed to appreciate a very slow, persistent approach. We were married eight months later.

And yes, she needed a ton of warmth and smilingness and verbal appreciation. And you are never going to get much talk from this type. She would often tell me something monumental and claim she had told me that before, but she had not, or I would have remembered. There was also a fairly large amount of passive aggression in her daily interactions. She was normally supportive and uncritical, but she was pretty distant from being warm and talkative. Also, SLI's love to be appreciated. If you can't do persistent appreciation with basically no feedback, and affection pretty much on their terms, then you should start looking for your second best match.

*EDIT*
I work with a male SLI-Te and a female IEE (both married to other people), and their interactions consist of her frequently approaching him in his office with requests for filled-out forms or other things she needs to do her job and him being evasive and saying as little as possible and trying to give her the minimum that he possibly can. This pretty much seems to be his approach to life. My SLI father is exactly the same way.
I just assumed, based on this and on my own marriage, that this is the way SLI's are, and IEE's are persistent and all over them all the time because otherwise they just can't break through the SLI's shell.

[JC1]

What is there type?

Also this sounds less like a stacking thing and more like Fi vs Fe.

[Guillaine]

I'm sx/so counterflow, but sx-first, and I think I can either seem disinterested or too sexually explicit. It's hard for me to see myself objectively, though.

If you are IEE sx/so, then your best match would theoretically be an SLI sp/sx. I think my ex-wife is SLI-Te sp/so, and let me say, she was incredibly inert when it came to dating. I had to be extremely forward but in a reserved way. Once, after going out with her for about two months, she invited me to her apartment for dinner and a glass of wine. We were sitting on the couch, talking, and I tried to kiss her and she actually picked me up and threw me out her door into the hallway. I figured that was the end of it, and if I had been smarter about dating or she less attractive, it would have been. But, I went home, cut a rose from a bush in my yard, returned and placed it under her windshield wiper along with a note of apology and a statement that said I hoped we could still be friends. I was a patient idiot, but she seemed to appreciate a very slow, persistent approach. We were married eight months later.

And yes, she needed a ton of warmth and smilingness and verbal appreciation. And you are never going to get much talk from this type. She would often tell me something monumental and claim she had told me that before, but she had not, or I would have remembered. There was also a fairly large amount of passive aggression in her daily interactions. She was normally supportive and uncritical, but she was pretty distant from being warm and talkative. Also, SLI's love to be appreciated. If you can't do persistent appreciation with basically no feedback, and affection pretty much on their terms, then you should start looking for your second best match.

*EDIT*
I work with a male SLI-Te and a female IEE (both married to other people), and their interactions consist of her frequently approaching him in his office with requests for filled-out forms or other things she needs to do her job and him being evasive and saying as little as possible and trying to give her the minimum that he possibly can. This pretty much seems to be his approach to life. My SLI father is exactly the same way.
I just assumed, based on this and on my own marriage, that this is the way SLI's are, and IEE's are persistent and all over them all the time because otherwise they just can't break through the SLI's shell.

Hmmm.. Interesting and funny! I've been with a te-sli he was too rigid. This guy I'm into now is si-sli, they are better for me, I'm ne subtype I think, they can be warm and funny/quirky. I think we are both nervous so being stressed doesn't bring out anyone's good side. But I feel caught between a rock and a hard place because when I'm more forward and direct he gets nervous and when i back off he literally thought I wasn't interested and withdrew then I had to be more obvious again and now he gets I'm interested but want me to continuously make eye contact and draw him over. I feel like I want to talk not do actions like eye contact. I have so much I want to express and I hate it being bottled up but I'm trying to be more go with his flow and I guess "feminine" as I have taken the lead in the past with bad results. So I guess it's partly me learning to ease off but still be warm, ie using more feminine than masculine energy which for some reason is hard for me. But now I'm starting to think it might be too hard and I should either drop it before I get bored and resentful orjust give him my number and tell him to call.

Like with your wife I don't want to miss early signs and get into a routine where I am catering to him emotionally, like you say "on their terms" for everything. I want some things to be on my terms too, right from the start and if they're not then it's a sign of lack of maturity and health I suppose.

I thought sx/sp was supposed to be best for sx/so, and that is what this guy is. My ex was sp/sx and it drove me up the wall all the excuses he had surrounding his sp needs, but he was completely unhealthy.

How do you be extremely forward in a reserved way? By being "a patient idiot" as you say? I feel like there is a key to the door but I'm overlooking it or I just don't have it.

I don't know if I'm ready to put all sli's in the too hard box yet. There were lots of great things about being with an SEI but our different values came out in the humour and lifestyle. And we kind of didn't get along with each other's friends which was annoying.

[Guillaine]

What is there type?

Also this sounds less like a stacking thing and more like Fi vs Fe.

You could be right, I am IEE and he is SLI I believe. Iam 4w5 he is 6w5. I am sx?so he is sx/sp. I find it hard to show fe without having had any chance to talk first, to test the waters a bit. It feels so weird to go from cold nothing to warm emotion, like it doesn't make sense or it's too contrived. I am trying but I guess I hope we can meet halfway...

[Guillaine]

What is there type?

Also this sounds less like a stacking thing and more like Fi vs Fe.

Actually on further reflection, my SEI ex sp/sx was one of those "hey, give us your number" casual non-flirting flirting kind of style that I was saying is the contra flow and he is an Fe user so I'm not sure if that explains it.

[Guillaine]

Hmmm.. Interesting and funny! I've been with a te-sli he was too rigid. This guy I'm into now is si-sli, they are better for me, I'm ne subtype I think, they can be warm and funny/quirky. I think we are both nervous so being stressed doesn't bring out anyone's good side. But I feel caught between a rock and a hard place because when I'm more forward and direct he gets nervous and when i back off he literally thought I wasn't interested and withdrew then I had to be more obvious again and now he gets I'm interested but want me to continuously make eye contact and draw him over. I feel like I want to talk not do actions like eye contact. I have so much I want to express and I hate it being bottled up but I'm trying to be more go with his flow and I guess "feminine" as I have taken the lead in the past with bad results. So I guess it's partly me learning to ease off but still be warm, ie using more feminine than masculine energy which for some reason is hard for me. But now I'm starting to think it might be too hard and I should either drop it before I get bored and resentful orjust give him my number and tell him to call.

Like with your wife I don't want to miss early signs and get into a routine where I am catering to him emotionally, like you say "on their terms" for everything. I want some things to be on my terms too, right from the start and if they're not then it's a sign of lack of maturity and health I suppose.

I thought sx/sp was supposed to be best for sx/so, and that is what this guy is. My ex was sp/sx and it drove me up the wall all the excuses he had surrounding his sp needs, but he was completely unhealthy.

How do you be extremely forward in a reserved way? By being "a patient idiot" as you say? I feel like there is a key to the door but I'm overlooking it or I just don't have it.

I don't know if I'm ready to put all sli's in the too hard box yet. There were lots of great things about being with an SEI but our different values came out in the humour and lifestyle. And we kind of didn't get along with each other's friends which was annoying.

Adam, Sorry if I was a bit careless in my reply. I meant the way you worded it was funny but being rejected like that must have been horrible and a little frightening. I'm sure you are a lot wiser from the whole thing now. I think we sx/so's take on a lot of responsibility when it comes to our relationships.

Anyway, after more revelations I have come to the conclusion he is a bit of a player so the clash was more me wanting to honestly communicate vs him wanting to play games, not necessarily the flow thing.

I seem to attract SLI's have always done and they are not always inert, they can be real playboys, not all, but I have observed this, they like women. Perhaps the sx first ones more likely, not sure.

[Adam Strange]

Adam, Sorry if I was a bit careless in my reply. I meant the way you worded it was funny but being rejected like that must have been horrible and a little frightening. I'm sure you are a lot wiser from the whole thing now. I think we sx/so's take on a lot of responsibility when it comes to our relationships.

Anyway, after more revelations I have come to the conclusion he is a bit of a player so the clash was more me wanting to honestly communicate vs him wanting to play games, not necessarily the flow thing.

I seem to attract SLI's have always done and they are not always inert, they can be real playboys, not all, but I have observed this, they like women. Perhaps the sx first ones more likely, not sure.

NP, @Guillaine. My father is SLI, so I was kind of used to being in a distant relationship. It beat the relationship I had with my mother. Lol.
I do agree that sx-firsts work hard to maintain a relationship. Probably because we were rejected from one when we were kids. That might even be what creates an sx-first personality.

Clashing with players seems to me to be a very correct thing to do. Personally, I try to be straight with people, but I sometimes find myself acting like a jerk for reasons I don't understand, and in those cases, having someone to clash with would be a blessing. Ideally, step by small step, we improve.

I don't think I've ever met an sx-first SLI. All of the ones I know seem to keep intimacy at a very long arm's length.

[Guillaine]

NP, @Guillaine. My father is SLI, so I was kind of used to being in a distant relationship. It beat the relationship I had with my mother. Lol.
I do agree that sx-firsts work hard to maintain a relationship. Probably because we were rejected from one when we were kids. That might even be what creates an sx-first personality.

Clashing with players seems to me to be a very correct thing to do. Personally, I try to be straight with people, but I sometimes find myself acting like a jerk for reasons I don't understand, and in those cases, having someone to clash with would be a blessing. Ideally, step by small step, we improve.

I don't think I've ever met an sx-first SLI. All of the ones I know seem to keep intimacy at a very long arm's length.

Maybe they like sex then, rather than intimacy. The si-sli seem to all have this way of moving as if they're in a boxing ring shifting their weight from one leg to the other, even women I've noticed who do this. They have a kind of swagger, but yeah, not so big on eye-contact.

Clashing with unhealthy people, totally you are right, now that I'm healthier I'm starting to trust my instincts with that, instead of thinking I've done something wrong now I am open to thinking there could be something unhealthy about the way they are going about things.

I didn't know that was the thinking that sx firsts were craving intimacy because they didn't get it, makes sense. I thought that was the 4 enneagram, lol I got both. I hear you about the family dynamics making you repeat that in your choice of relationships. My mum was LSI 3w2 not sure of enneagram sp/so? with narcissistic tendencies and deeply religious, my dad pretty unavailable IEI 9w8 sp/sx also religious. LOL. Makes you into a kind of ugly duckling. I love living through my 30's and finding out who I am and not worrying about how other people do things or feeling wrong because I'm different.

Sylvester Stallone is sli-si might be an example of sx first, though he is often typed as LSE .

[Myst]

And yes, she needed a ton of warmth and smilingness and verbal appreciation. And you are never going to get much talk from this type. She would often tell me something monumental and claim she had told me that before, but she had not, or I would have remembered. There was also a fairly large amount of passive aggression in her daily interactions. She was normally supportive and uncritical, but she was pretty distant from being warm and talkative. Also, SLI's love to be appreciated. If you can't do persistent appreciation with basically no feedback, and affection pretty much on their terms, then you should start looking for your second best match.

And this is what some people call Fe seeking??

[Bertrand]

the difference is in where its coming from, I think Adam is right in his assessment though

if you read psychological types you can see Jung describe the difference in how Fe is coming from sort of blending with the environment and trying to always push thing in a positive direction. IEE is not trying to push SLI into a positive direction because the environmental positive emotions need to be maximized. SLI in fact hates that and finds it degrading, because its impersonal

[Myst]

the difference is in where its coming from, I think Adam is right in his assessment though

if you read psychological types you can see Jung describe the difference in how Fe is coming from sort of blending with the environment and trying to always push thing in a positive direction. IEE is not trying to push SLI into a positive direction because the environmental positive emotions need to be maximized. SLI in fact hates that and finds it degrading, because its impersonal

Yeah... but some SLIs confuse this for actual Fe seeking lol

[Lord Pixel]

Hm, this is all interesting, and I appreciate the raw "direct straight up truth, cut to the chase" style of contra flow types, because it's so unlike me and that boldness is respectable and very hard for me to do, but without warm moments of laughter and banter and inside jokes I feel like that approach is skipping all my favorite parts and can be kind of abrasive, if at first exciting. Like wow great someone wants to cut straight to the core of who I am and see the real me, awesome, BUT, without the warm milky moments of laughter, secrets, inside jokes, touch, and wonder, I can't really be attracted enough to give up the core of myself to someone.

I'm So/Sx. I'm all about being this cool person in a group, with a secret friend I have picked out of the group that sees a side of me that is less cool but more real. The entertainer that needs a confidant behind the scenes. The Comedian that needs a shoulder to cry on. Some Great Gatsby shit.

So perhaps some Contra flows think Syn flows are too slow or play games, I just can't go from 0 to 100 if I don't feel something(even though I have but that was usually lead by the other person), it needs to marinate and build up for me. I'm an male EII and I dated female SLE once and I'm sure she was a raging Sx/So, not unhealthy, nothing wrong with her, but I remember once we said to each other, I said "If things move to fast it doesn't really mean anything to me." And she said "If it doesn't move fast and is too slow it don't mean anything to me" That's when I realized we were on completely different tracks, I personally felt like she felt like now that she knew my name and a few things we can have sex, and I felt like we are getting to know each other and now are on the path to sex. For me it was like the culmination of all the feelings we feel finally being expressed, like a finish line, and for her it was the start of everything. I also met another SLE girl who I spoke to ONE time and after that she wanted to know where I lived like my actual house location, I was attracted to her and she seemed interested in me back, but god damn, ONE talk and you want to come to my house, like noooooo, I want to feel it out with you first. I just can't get with that whole "Ok we are attracted to each other, lets go somewhere alone so things can happen, or flat-out let's have sex." And I'm a guy, so like, that's probably a dream for most guys but sex is something vulnerable where you get naked in front of someone, I don't want to be naked in front of a stranger, and rushing things like that makes the person still feel like a stranger, even if they are an attractive one. Not to keep bragging but I have also been in a situation where the FIRST day I spoke to a girl, she slept over a friend of mine's house and wanted me to sleep in the bed with her, I did, we cuddled, but she apparently told my friends I wasn't "aggressive" enough, indicating she expected sex on the FIRST DAY WE SPOKE! I do not understand that behaviour aside from "You just want sex, and that's too shallow for me" *rides self righteous high horse into the night*

The times where I have been pining over girls and felt very strong desire towards them has always been girls that I can't tell if they are interested in me, girls that I can tell are interested in me but we never say anything, or girls where we enjoy laughter, witty banter, inside jokes, on top of her being attractive, but that unsure-ness is always in the air, that unsure-ness is annoying as much as it is sexy for me.

Idk, I like the scenic route to relationships, enjoying each other's companies, all the new things this person brings in your life, anticipating that first kiss, all that anticipation can cause dissappointment, but it feels sooo good when it's good. Anything else feels like rushing and that leaves me unsure if i want the relationship sometimes, though sometimes it leaves me surprised like "I've never connected with someone this quick." But idk, I do like to earn the affection of someone else through my abilities than just, hey you I like you let's make out. My energy for sex with someone or even making out with them well comes from the build up of all the feelings I have gotten from watching them, getting close to them, laughing with them, shooting back and forth witty banter, really feeling the moments with them and even fantasizing about what it would be like to touch them or have them, the transition from fun to serious, that build up is not present when we cut to the chase.

Sorry I'm repeating myself, but yea, I didn't know this was a syn flow contra flow thing, direct vs indirect. But i agree I think Syn-flow is probably more indirect and feels the person out. Perhaps Contra flow doesn't like holding themselves back from their obvious attraction to someone and they just want to jump in it head first. To me that sounds awesome, but I guess it's not what I actually practice.

[Guillaine]

THanks for the thoughts Lord Pixel, you're probably right, going at your own pace is more genuine and authentic no matter the types. And maybe there is something to my original idea but... now I am getting better at distinguishing si-SEI and si-SLI I realise that the guy I mentioned was actually SEI-si if only from the interactions between us and that the differing styles of communication were most probably FI vs FE. i am noticing SLIs care less about what others think and upon meeting someone are more calm and open whereas SEIs get jittery and do all kinds of cute but in a way to me unnecessary things to test the waters. This makes me feel uneasy by the clarity of my duals and the lack of interuptions to the flow, which is terrifying because it is precisely what I probably need/want and there are no "problems" to hide behind. So it's just a question of whether I have the courage in my heart to go towards what feels more risky (dual) option, but ultimately maybe more satisfying, option.