Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 41 to 59 of 59

Thread: Kara - What's my type?

  1. #41

    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    106
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    .
    Last edited by 0i0; 09-16-2018 at 09:25 AM.

  2. #42

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    TIM
    LSI-Se sx
    Posts
    4,697
    Mentioned
    505 Post(s)
    Tagged
    25 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kara View Post
    I think I don’t believe in absolute truths or that anything sould be. That is, I don’t believe in an absolute truth any way more than in chaos – I have a weird feeling that it’s actually one and the same. Which doesn’t mean that chaos is the absolute truth – it means that both chaos and one coherent system are the same in a way. There are so many perspectives here my head starts to hurt.
    Well understanding chaos would definitely put us really close to understanding everything


    Oh, no way. I need to think a lot about something, and ask maybe someone who I think would have a different perspective than me before I would act on a feeling. But this could be something I learnt while I was growing up – I realized this is a way better way to deal with anything*. I also tend to analyze a lot what I feel, try to see the source of it (sometimes even behind myself, look for archetypical examples), and I grind a lot about something before I make up my mind. I have some people I trust and know what is their forte – I discuss these matters with them sometimes.
    That does sound like a good approach really... I do think anyone who gets too sunk in feelings in some situations would do well with this advice and resources to gain such understanding...


    (*This is actually one thing we were discussing with @Sol before – one’s „type” can be just different factors of other theories put together – what would make for example a Socionics theory more valid than I don’t know, combining astrology, childhood attachment, enneagram, human design etc.? Something won’t be more valid, because it’s one theory, maybe that one theory will explain 95% of you, while four other combined will explain 98%.)
    Yeah I would also prefer a way to be able to use theories together. Socionics model of course won't cover everything about people's workings, it would just be a valid model to explain certain things while the rest are explained by other models.


    Also, even if I feel something intensely, I immediately see this could be just an emotional reaction, and not something I should act upon. Another thing I could add is that I often feel that my personal struggles are of everyone’s – I see issues I have on micro and macro levels, how it’s something as a law in my surroundings, universally, archetypically, etc. People had a hard time sometimes understanding that these issues I have, moral questions, for example are not „things I think about when I’m randomly bored”, they are part of me in a way that I can’t cut myself off from all these questions as I feel they live inside me and you, and nothing is ever separated from us in the end. This doesn’t necessarily make me very emotional, I just feel that there are hidden things everywhere, connected, and everyone lives in them, and it frustrates me when someone ignores this.
    I understand. As far as type would you relate to the description of seeing emotions as some variables among many other variables and treating them as such? You seem that way to me from your descriptions here.


    I see the point of having strong emotions, I just feel way more stable as an adult, and I feel I can also penetrate just as deep into the unknown. I wouldn’t compare to having strong emotions though to Fe-lead (but you wrote about this as well, about what is the difference), I think there are just sensitive people, and they have to get accustomed to the world, which often leads us to get a bit numb or tougher.
    Oh, ok, btw that IEI explicitly said she doesn't see the point. I tried to tell her there is a point sometimes


    You did, the first paragraph about the Ethics lead and Ni lead was a very interesting read.
    Glad it helped!


    It seemed like to me they were trying to connect in a group situation, but sometimes it happens in an awkward way, that made it a bit cringey, haha.
    Lol like what awkward ways?


    I think this is something I can see as a difference between my ESE and IEI friends. My ESE friend tries to emotionally strengthen me and validating what I feel, get angry with me, etc., praise me to make me feel better, tell me she loves me and supports me etc. It gives me a nice emotional comfort, but it’s not enough. What I need is my IEI friend, with him we go into huge discussions about metaphors, feelings, analyzing what is coming from where, how does it affect something else, we sometimes just say half sentences or metaphors and get what a whole situation is about, so we can help each other a lot. He also feels what the person does whom he is talking with, then tells it to them. „Look, I feel really anxious and scared, and I think this is how you feel”. It happens to me too, when I talk to someone.
    Oh I want to clarify a bit first. EIE instantly names the most relevant emotion for the situation like that and IEI may analyse the situation at length including even analyses on how feelings of people in it work but IEI doesn't tend to manage to grasp the main factor for what emotional stuff is going on for the situation like EIE does. They instead understand what Ni events are going on etc. And I believe this shows very well the cognitive difference between Fe lead vs Fe not being in leading position. For EIE that's what they will focus on first so they will see how to simplify the Fe aspect of the situation and IEI focuses on something else instead - the Ni hunches of perceiving what the situation is like in a mental way.

    Where you say "Look, I feel really anxious and scared, and I think this is how you feel", yeah I think this is more an IEI expression of what emotions/feelings are at play in the situation. EIE would be more like... "This is so scary" or "I'm having a panic attack now" (the last one is an actual example lol, it was also a bit of an exaggeration), or "Oh that's just feeling sorry for him" (actual example again). I think the IEI version is usually expressed in a more introverted and more analytical way, "I feel..." or "This event [here abstract details of event come] is happening leading to this feeling and this feeling is like this and this". The "I feel..." stuff makes me go a bit more introverted focusing inwards too to my internal states, a bit extra-reflective too, and the situation/events/feelings analysis is like a very reflective mood comes on for me. While EIE would actually get even exaggerated about what emotion they are focused on.

    I think EIEs will also get into analyzing that you say you like to do with your IEI friend, but they remain more with the concrete actions and emotional states with not much focus on "I feel" and also relatively less focus on linking abstract details of events together. So when EIE is analyzing in a convo it happens more like they say these actions and emotions and along with these they will just bring up shorter linkages of the abstract detail and metaphors, along with good - even if quick and short compared to IEI - intuitive summaries of stuff going on.

    About your ESE friend, I don't think I've been close to any ESE like this, I find EIE can do some positive input too like that but they are not really mollycoddling emotionally like that. That's fine by me really, I don't need to be emotionally strengthened by others (in the way I interpret this concept), that mightbe more a LII thing, I do want some positive emotional expressions of course, anyone would, but they do not need to be too often directed at me in this way and I'm fine with negative expressions too, can even be almost fun drama as long as it's about some problem other than me, ofc if I'm involved too that's less comfortable . By fun drama I don't mean I don't take it seriously... it just takes my attention. Makes me more engaged in problem solving and so that's also more effective... Anyway overall ESEs repress negative expressions about things more often than EIEs, afaik. Though I find EIE also doesn't necessarily put it into your face either if they have a problem with you, it's a sort of conflict avoidance I noticed with some of them. Unless it's actually a bad ethical violation, then they will be in your face fine. All in all, about positivity, I said earlier that where positive emotional input from EIE helps is for motivating me towards dealing with some complex relationship stuff. On my own I can only confront such situations if I really get forced to or if I make myself kick myself in the ass and do it finally instead of procrastinating.


    I think it takes me usually a few seconds to see why is someone feeling in a way about something, this can happen with strangers too, because I get an overall picture and feeling about them (I can be wrong though). This usually comes with just a simple thought, or a big picture – if it’s more complex. Think about a huge painting that you encounter, it pops up from nowhere, and then you have to describe the colors of it, maybe the objects if you see more. Like basically you build a picture out of hunches, and I feel when it’s spot-on. Most of the time. I talk about this, and then tell and advice. I have to make a plus effort to comfort people emotionally, like telling them they are good, I love them, it will be fine, they can do it, they are the best etc. I want them to understand what is happening, and I can get very frustrated, if we don’t get at the bottom of it. Almost like I have a shovel, and I am just digging and digging, even if it gets more and more painful. Sometimes this can happen in a way that I make a blunt statement if I don’t have any emotional energies left, and leave it at there. Then take a big sigh, and say something comforting and nice, haha.
    Hmm, interesting about the painting. I have no idea about IEI vs EIE in this area as to how their Ni+Fe vs Fe+Ni looks like. Though where you say you build the pictures of hunches it sounds like you are more focusing on a Ni picture rather than Fe picture.

    And yeah that kind of emotional comfort I never needed. Lol the digging though... sounds like you'd be good therapist material. (I mean, working as a therapist ofc.)


    Hm, yes, I can see that, and understand. I think the advice I give are long term ones as well, trying to provide solutions for what I found as a core problem.

    How do they talk about the world emotionally? For example there are sometimes things I can be passionate about (for example the whole charade of political correctness, but I usually connect everything outside with everything else, and also myself in the end, if that makes sense.
    It makes sense, not sure if EIEs connect it all in their heads, in their talk such links don't always seem to be expressed or implied though sometimes yes. So how they talk about stuff emotionally, it's just they have emotional expressions for stuff they talk about, things they mention are just emotionally charged due to that, and I suppose the stuff they talk about has emotional significance. Yeah, political correctness is a good example of an issue they can discuss.


    For example: Ah, they forbid the use of pictures of swastikas or guns. This will make it even worse, as all things forbidden are more alluring as things that are discussed (patterns+self experience).
    Yeah lol


    By the way it’s so interesting to me how detailed you see your inner mechanism. Mine feels like a huge abstract painting with random insights, but when I try to get to a conclusion, everything collapses, and I am not sure about it anymore.
    Ah your mind must be interesting too lol. For me what helps is that whenever I get some insight on my inner stuff, I try to keep to logical regularities in viewing them and put them together in explanations of mechanisms. Just keeping consistency with this. Lol I don't know if that helps... it kind of does mean dissecting things to be able to see those regularities in a strict way (instead of things falling apart) where you would default to seeing the insights for themselves (instead of the "soulless" dissecting jk about "soulless" ofc).


    This is very interesting, could you tell me examples? I think I’m usually concrete, but there are things that can only be told with metaphors, weird pictures and feelings, or even without words. Words are not always something we can trust, as they can rob us from many informations. This is why I write many poems - they can express more obscure feelings I have sometimes.
    The kind of concreteness I meant is about the focus being on emotions/actions/objects* themselves, I gave examples above for this. Let me know if it helps. ...Agreed on words being inadequate. I read somewhere that this is a Beta sentiment

    *: This is supposed to be Extraversion + Rationality. Rationality in terms of how it's not just "undefined" perceptions but specific actions/emotions/things, and along with Extraversion it's the direct focus on "who", "what", "where" instead of associative perceptions or introverted analyses about these.


    I understand the issue, although I think I’m rarely insecure about my logics. I only get frustrated, when someone doesn’t understand the step-to-step logic I’m explaining, or dismisses me without thinking further, but I think that would bother anyone. With LSIs what bothered me sometimes was that I felt they couldn’t be okay with some ideas of mine that required actually leaving logic behind, and getting confused. I enjoy getting confused sometimes, as I feel it’s a different state of mind, where I can swim in pictures and weird hunches, but I feel while I’m swimming in a lake somewhere, they stand on the side, looking at me puzzled, while trying to put their toe into the water. But this never really hurt me.
    With Se-doms the issue that can rise is that they doesn’t really get emotionally involved in my ideas, and maybe forget about them in the next minute. But they are always very open-minded, and can get with me into that lake. They just say after 10 minutes „hey, do you wanna eat something now?”, meanwhile I’m having some catharsis about the meaning of life, haha.
    That is a pretty good description there lol. I do see SLEs going for Ni vs me being more reserved like that. I said I can listen to Ni stuff for pretty long, literally even hours, but I do have to put it all through a logic filter first so I don't easily get actively engaged with it. If I manage to logic it out or translate it at least to my own terms I can add quite some stuff actually though, think of it as me suddenly jumping in and swimming very fast - for a short time though lol. And yeah I don't think that bothers IEIs if I'm reserved like that, I think the problem with me vs IEIs is more like when - in some more important matters I guess - the IEI does want to pull me into the lake so I can see what they do, and I'm to follow without resistance what they are seeing with their Ni vs me doing the same with Ti to them. I'm curious actually, have you got examples of how SLE gets into that lake with you?


    I’m a tough one in this matter. I hate obligations, because I can guarantee you I will change my mind 40 times before we meet, but I also hate when someone asks me to do something last minute. My SEE and IEI friend love randomly going out, my SLE one hates it when people show up without saying anything beforehand.
    Ah that's weird lol, I don't get it: if it's not arranged last minute then it's not necessarily an obligation you hate? What does that depend on? Lol btw I can be fine with last minute ideas if I'm not busy with some other tasks/obligations.


    I mean, if you say something, and then doesn’t say anything about it later, isn’t it obvious they will believe it’s still a thing? I can get so cautious if anyone mentions anything – I always keep it in mind, putting it into the picture I have of them and feel weird, when they tell me suddenly that this is not an actually serious thing, or not anymore.
    I do say it later if it's no longer important (if it was some request or idea I wanted done), but maybe I don't always get to say it clear enough...


    I get what you mean. I’m really aware how my emotions might affect someone, but I can ignore this totally. I can have no facial expression at all, or my tone can sound rude (according to my SEE friend), so maybe this is one reason why I feel it forced to show many positive emotions, when I just don’t have it naturally. I feel this frustration almost, like „I will decide when and what I will show, I will not make you feel better, just because you crave it”. But even though I say this, most of the time, I think I’m very kind to people, who approach me, and try to be friendly, and can get very chatty. I think I just feel weird when I have to prove my passion or how much something means to me by making a whole dramatic scene, and my thoughts are not enough for you.
    Hmm for me idk if it is necessarily about feeling better, bc I'm mostly usually in an emotionally neutral state. Not a negative state by default under normal circumstances. And like I said maybe it looks like craving but it's not. Though sure positive stuff doesn't hurt.

    As for your last sentence, ah well yeah for LxI some stuff just doesn't register as effectively if there is no emotional expression with it. Like I explained earlier. It's interesting you feel an expectation from LxIs about proving your passion.


    Yes, it bothers me, I think. Not necessarily the initiation, but if someone is unmotivated or even butthurt (an ESE I know) because I don't react positively and emotionally charged. When I have to do it though, I feel in charge, because I feel I know what I do, but the fact that it’s so obvious to me how I could get someone’s attention and make them feel nice makes it a bit frustrating to me. I enjoy when it’s less obvious. Of course, I can make an effort, if someone is important to me.

    Yes, this happened to me on dates with LSIs. I saw how they almost mimicked me, and it bothered me, because it was not… more original, or less obvious? More spontaneous, maybe?
    Ohh no I don't think I feel butthurt about someone not being expressive or engaging or positive enough lol. But I've seen Fe egos before (idk if Fe base or not for those people specifically) who told me they do like it if people react positively like that to their expressions...

    And lol hm mimicking, you mean mirroring?


    What was awkward to you, their lack of initiation?
    Yeah, that they seemed to go into themselves so much, and then I kind of felt something about how I need to be doing something to shake them up. Haha maybe it's like you feeling expectations to provide Fe while it's me feeling expectations to provide Se... idk will have to think about this. I can do some of the Se of course but in these cases I felt like I need to do it more and that'd have been forced at that point. Also, even when I do some of the Se "shake-up" in a natural fashion, it can feel like it was not enough and I need to do more. Then sometimes it's enough and that's good. For this issue though, my earlier notes on how to deal with it do help. Relaxing and not feeling like I need to do more than natural definitely helps too. One more interesting note here is that I don't think I felt this issue/awkwardness like this in periods when I was more socially involved with people overall/in general, so that also helps... Probably dual seeking is also more satisfied in those periods and less strong. You calling it a "craving" comes to mind again, I think if it truly seems like that then it's no longer a natural thing either.


    Yes, I know these types. Competing is fun indeed, but I think I like taking it less seriously, than getting super focused. With my SLE friend we usually laugh a lot, pick on each other in the meantime, swear, and do competitions more „playfully”. Sometimes I can go a bit more serious, but when I fuck up something, I laugh a lot about my stupidity.
    Yeah, LSI-Ti friend gets SUPER focused. I do too but he is extreme I think. It's more a LSI than a SLE thing yes, like you describe it. You again seem like you (ideally) prefer a more spontaneous approach than what even the Se subtype of LSI would give.


    Yes, I can easily imagine LSIs doing wilder stuff as well, if there is an initiation or idea from someone.



    It makes sense, and sounds very interesting to me. The only way I can relate to it, is I met LSIs before, who were leading in a way, buti t was more about „which route we should go”, not „which activity we should do”. I can be super hesitant about these things, so it doesn’t help, but I appreciate the route stuff.
    Umm can you say what you mean by going a route as contrasted to doing an activity?

    And yeah I'm not so much about taking charge about what activity to do when it's just for fun... for that I do prefer if the other party shows what they feel like doing, too. There are exceptions to this too ofc.


    Someone also told me before that I look mystical or zoomed out, and my SEE mentioned in a rough period of my life that I’m basically having a wall up, and he has no idea how to approach me – nothing touched me, emotionally or otherwise, I just didn’t care about anything. I was not necessarily depressed, but tired.
    I've seen that with both IEI and EIE yeah.


    I think what I meant is that I read many of them feel that they are inappropriate and not diplomatical. Well, I like that they are inappropriate, and one of them told me before, that they are too bold for others, and very offensive. I find it funny, and don’t really care. If it causes huge trouble, for example someone is really getting hurt, I can quietly intervene, and soften it.
    Lol this was very IEI.

    The cases where I saw EIEs intervene for ethical issues, it was never quiet, lol. That's an understatement. They get realllly passionate and actually mad crazy with how they will attack the person without a worry for possible danger etc.

    Anyway yeah this seems SLE specific too, with the stuff you encourage for self-expression there. LSI and most other types would not feel that comfortable at that.


    Yes, I agree. I like that the world is opened around me in a way. Although my SEE friend can also get very decisive or judgmental in a very short period, and make up her mind.
    But how consistently does the SEE stay on track with the judgment?


    It takes time, and after you closed something, it will open up from time to time, and grief will come in waves, but it’s just natural, and one should go with it.
    This is specifically about people related matters I guess?


    There are topics when I know from some kind of insight what I believe in, and I get stubborn, but I think I always analyze the other’s point of view, and maybe even get unsure, or see how many views could fit together. In crazy moments I end up with some form of colorful abomination of an interesting theory.
    Latter part sounds interesting

    As for "see how many views could fit together", sounds like Ni in the way you put it.


    It’s so bizarre to me. I’ve never really met an IEI who wasn’t depressed or gloomy or melancholic, let alone upbeat. It’s such a bizarre picture to me. What I know I can provide though is a belief in values, like redemption, change etc. Maybe this is what they mean?
    Ah yes that actually makes sense providing positivity in this manner for Ni dual seeking. I've seen *not* depressed and not gloomy IEIs btw! They do exist!


    All in all... Do you feel you got any closer to typing yourself? You said some really IEI things above, what would you see as EIE possibly for yourself?

    One thing I want to mention about that: I noticed there's (of course lol) more than one opinion floating around about what an EIE vs an IEI is... I would say that I found that N vs F distinction and the stricter requirement/criteria for IEI having a very open mind for quite original/"weird" perspectives seeing everything else through them vs EIE having enough continuous emotional expression (except for special cases like severel depression of course... I mean as a default preference) is what works to explain interactions for me. This is true even in the cases of "Creative" subtypes who could otherwise seem between the two types, with having many traits of both types - the Base function will still set enough constraints to "assert" it's the leading function over the Creative. The looser approaches where some type people as IEI or as EIE based on some aspects or traits that are at least somewhat associated with IEI or EIE stereotypically - while there is nothing proving that a more feely-moody IEI or even other types couldn't have some traits of EIE, or that EIE couldn't have quite some traits of IEI - don't actually work well for me. Definitionally that means to me that e.g. Fe base is driven by the emotional expressiveness with emotional charge and passion consistently and an ethically more rigid attitude about things, and it's not simply an interest in feelings or talking about them enough or sometimes being really dramatic for different purposes etc. And similar strong criteria for Ni base... etc. All in all, I personally used to not separate this criteria so clearly, especially because I was using examples of people who were probably mistyped in actuality (IEI typed as EIE etc) until I managed to put a lot of observed things more in order and I find this more strict and streamlined defining of the types, dropping the less specific details/traits/etc, provides more explanatory power. Maybe this sounds simple but the point really is the strictness in keeping to these main distinctions, as so often the discussions on type seem to get lost in less specific details/traits.
    Last edited by Myst; 06-16-2018 at 12:48 AM.

  3. #43

    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    106
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    .
    Last edited by 0i0; 09-16-2018 at 09:25 AM.

  4. #44
    Bertrand's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    5,936
    Mentioned
    484 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    wow that's the most impressive line by line call and response ive ever seen

  5. #45
    falsehope's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    TIM
    ILE ENTp-Ti
    Posts
    440
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    The EIE women I know very often express high extroversion, for example taking up the voice in front of many people, and other things involving many people. Large amount of people is like a trigger to act.
    The IEI-Fe is not like that, but shows some extroversion as well, but a lot less in bold ways. For example, hosts parties at home every week and becomes everyone good friend and talks a lot of stuff with everyone but it's not leading voice like EIE is.
    EIE usually VIs very well just like for taylor swift or benedict cumberbatch. The extraverted intuitive type with feeling and rational is very characteristic.

  6. #46
    Bertrand's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    5,936
    Mentioned
    484 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    I dunno taylor as EIE is probably controversial so I don't think its that obvious

  7. #47
    falsehope's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    TIM
    ILE ENTp-Ti
    Posts
    440
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    I dunno taylor as EIE is probably controversial so I don't think its that obvious
    But on this website she got highest number of votes for EIE and I agree with it very much. The votes for other logical types where ridiculous. There were big posters of her for few years around my work so I could see all details of her face mon-fri.

    Also what I have heard is that she is known for imagination fuelled speeches, and because of that someone did "taylor swift infosec" where some guy explains infosec with imagination in similar way to her i.e.:

    Last edited by falsehope; 06-17-2018 at 09:56 PM.

  8. #48
    Bertrand's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    5,936
    Mentioned
    484 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    lol not sure if serious

  9. #49

    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    106
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    .
    Last edited by 0i0; 09-16-2018 at 09:25 AM.

  10. #50
    falsehope's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    TIM
    ILE ENTp-Ti
    Posts
    440
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Yeah most EIE does display high extroversion but they do display introversion as well. And that extroversion is so obvious it's hard to mistake it for IEI-Fe.

  11. #51

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    TIM
    LSI-Se sx
    Posts
    4,697
    Mentioned
    505 Post(s)
    Tagged
    25 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kara View Post
    Would it? And if it would, than that means we can everything the system compared to chaos, and here comes the interesting thought play, when is the point when one becomes the one and same. But I don't want to go down that rabbit hole in this thread, haha.
    Well I meant that chaos is what we don't understand And ok lol


    Oh, yes. Intense emotions are powerful variables, but variables. How is it? "These violent delights have violent ends".

    Awkward ways, when you see someone stumbling across something, because it's not their forte, and you just feel awkward too because of it. Also, I felt with all the LSIs I've known, that they were not in "places" where I have been or liked to wander around. Dark, deep, scary things. Not because they weren't interested, but they didn't go their on their own, and this really bothered me. The SLE I know is different, and it makes me feel we are so much closer because of this.

    I also felt a difference in their approach to my weirdness. The LSIs were maybe a bit baffled, but never judged me, they were looking at me interested, while the SLE I know seemed like it's natural, like I haven't said anything crazy, and it made me feel nice and normal.
    I see, makes sense for IEI>EIE overall, I think.


    As about the difference between IEI and EIE you mentioned before, I'm not sure though which one I do, I think I do both. I stay with the "okay, here is what is happening to you, I'll be brief, and I think, this is what you should do part", if I'm exhausted emotionally, if I'm not, I try to go further into patterns.
    Oh, for EIE I meant they just straight away make some judgments. They don't seem to try and go further into Intuition much more by default or express it that much.


    Yes, I can see how LSIs bloom like flowers, when I start to engage with them more emotionally, be chatty, etc. They opened up, became energized, etc. The weird thing is that it makes me a lot more extraverted too, and I end up being exhausted, but can't really stop. Getting too introverted can do this to me too, purposefully staying silent in some situations.
    You seem really ambiverted I guess.


    My ESE friend used to tell me how nice it is, that it makes her feel like I take her hand when something is dark or scary, and walk with her, because on her own, she hates feeling disturbed or any dissonant emotions, while I enjoy them/more interested in the knowledge. I feel I don't necessarily need the type of reinforcement she does, but sometimes it feels nice, and I realize it only then. However, I would never give up analytical approach for it from someone. I feel I can get emotional stability and support from my own thoughts and my faith (connection with the divine), if it makes sense, and I know even the worst storms will end.

    One other thing I realized though, what really comforts me, and is a weirdly important need is human touch, hugs, etc. This baffles me a bit, but if it comes from loved ones, it can soothe me like an animal
    Bolded doesn't really seem Ti DS, though I wouldn't say EIE has to be all that crazy unstable (Maybe they seem that way to some people though. ) They just don't rely on their Ti much independently.


    I understand, what you say, sounds similar to what I've seen with LSIs before. A well built structure which is stable, but because it needs to be stable (unlike SLEs), they need to keep it more "fenced" from incoherent or illogical things (the Ni thing we talked about). I just appreciate it sometimes when they explain things I haven't seen, because I was so in my emotions and own head, but I'll come back to this later.
    Right.


    Yes, I got it, thank you!
    Np!


    I spend a lot of time with one, and it's very regular that we randomly start to talk about conspiracies, and a lot of "what ifs". It can be adorable, I see how this is a territory for them in a way that they use more creativity, and maybe feel stupid after they had a weird idea, but I always see logic behind it, and enjoy that they are so open-minded. Sometimes we read old texts together, and talk about what could be the meaning behind it, they have different and sometimes more literal interpretation problems with it than I do, like:
    -"how the hell can this person be a whale, when they said he was a goldfish"
    -"I think it was just a metaphor for turning into something else"
    -"hmm, I wonder what if these metaphors would also be applied to (...)"

    This "I wonder" is what makes a lot of difference to me between LSIs and SLEs. We play with ideas a lot.
    Yeah, that's Irrationality + Intuition.


    Everything seems like an obligation, when it's fixed, and I don't want to do it. It really just depends my mood. It always seems like as soon as something is a must, even if I'd like it, I start to feel this aversion to run away from it. This doesn't come with my relationships thank God, but everything else. I want to do everything in my time, when and how I want it, slowly or randomly, stopping it or starting it again. I often btch about the fact that we can't take vacation days from life.
    That seems to fall in line with what some IEIs told me before. In terms of they don't want too much commitment/obligation. Maybe EIEs can feel this way too but I didn't hear this from them explicitly and they do seem to adjust better even if they are no LSIs themselves lol.


    Well, I feel this because than there is no register as you said. Or they won't feel at ease, or bloom, like I see a neeed.,I'm not obliged of course to do anything with it, I can just feel the crave maybe.
    Oh I'm thinking it's just that you see more with your Intuition than what's directly visible and you can see their potential (this bloom thing ) so you see they should be in need of it. Even if, as an LSI, I personally don't feel that in reality. But it makes sense when reflecting about it, in terms of how Fe is definitely a good thing to have so technically it's a need. What I'm trying to say though is that I easily get oblivious of Fe stuff and hence I get oblivious of needing it, too. So it's not like some maintained craving. I just lose attention on all of it after a while, unless I force myself to remember and go and try and maintain some Fe access. (Which I only have bad ways of going about in some situations, like being too straightforward in making requests or being too "mechanical" about it perhaps?) Did this make sense?


    Yes, and it made me feel like "um, I'm not sure, what I should do now, I will do what she does", instead of just doing stuff from their own head spontaneously, which attracts me.
    The mirroring is really automatic for me, it's not about insecurities like "not sure what to do, let's copy the other person". It's just my automatic response when I get involved (to various degrees, can be really superficial too) in the emotional situation.


    Yes, this makes sense. I can get a bit closed up, especially in group situations, and my SLE friend just starts to talk to me, or asks me something, makes a joke, engages me, randomly say my name, smiles at me, and he will keep me "there" and "involved", almost like he invites me back always. This seems weirdly similar to what I would think EIEs do for LSIs in group situations. I do this sometimes as well to others, if they are outcasts, and I seem them struggle, I try to be nice, and ask them stuff.
    Also, this SLE has such a rude sense of humor and talks so much and loudly, that I just can't not react, so I usually burst out laughing.
    I've heard IEI say that about appreciating this about SLEs. One IEI specifically said she needs the waves provided by the SLE to ride them to adjust to them with her own Fe (she's very good at adapting to people this way btw, like exceptionally good, not all IEIs are that good as she).

    As for EIEs, they are not so random about it like you describe it. It's also less directed at me personally... it's more like they live in/play out their own theatre and then when they deem the emotional situation makes it appropriate, they make direct moves/move attention to involve me too a bit more directly. This is also pretty frequent of course but it's like it's part of the whole "theatre play". So not really that random but cool anyway. Overall I'm involved in any case because of watching the "play".


    Like in micromanaging things they lead me somtimes "let's go this way", but not in a "hey, I thought about booking tickets to this, do you want to go there?" But this can be just a fale perception, as I don't want to see a pattern coming from a few people's behaviors whom I also didn't know well enough. But with me Se dom friends we can be sometimes fcking clueless as to what to do, and sit there for hours talking about "hm, what should we do - I don't know", then a random topic pops up, until there is no time to actually decide what to watch/eat etc.
    Exactly this is how that IEI compared too SLEs vs LSIs, lol. You do sound like you prefer Irrationality and more momentum.


    This is when it's not bullying, and I know it was meant no harm. If I see someone defenseless and straight up being bullied, I can make a scene, and call out that person on their bullshit.
    OK, I see, though I would still say EIEs are truly mad crazy with it. Maybe just my pov but it's all very passionate emotional judgments. IEI can also get passionate with this stuff but they are kind of seeming less... directed/purposeful emotionally? (I will mention more on Se DS vs Se HA below.)


    It's because of the fact that as a child I was very different, maybe as a teenager as well.
    OK as for the list on EIE vs IEI:

    1) can be extraverted but can also be based on Ni base's envisioned convictions. 2) IEI did tell me that before. 3) Yeah sounds stereotypical dual-seeking. Esp the part about how you were not aware of some Se stuff before you were given them. I think one can be this oblivious of their DS function. 4) Seems weak Sensing overall, it's not specific to Si PoLR. 5) Same. Or sp-last. Or being young (if that applies). 6) This seems like leading Intuition, with making an imaginative impression, but there is some NF-ish stuff with Feeling in it too, sure. 7) Refer to 1). + ambiversion. 8) Refer to 1), 7).


    It reminded me a bit of something you wrote in here:
    Ah yeah, she apparently is soc-last in Enneagram and that could be the problem.


    Also, this is one thing that my IEI friend told me before. One of his best friend's is very extraverted, and my IEI friend told me basically this guy taught him how to speak up, be more opened, louder, talk more etc. It came to a point that when I first met him, I thought he was extraverted.
    Cool, a result of socializing and maybe dualizing?


    I've never had a hard time expressing my opinion or values. It's just always felt like that in a group situation I feel very uncomfortable, I have a hard time connecting. So I prefer talking to one or two people, and started to prefer staying in the role of percieving people. I just usually feel like I don't belong in groups. Even with friends, group situations are more shallow, loud etc.
    Seems like you don't care all that much for social instinct. Though sure, soc-firsts can be very neurotic too about fitting in groups (first instinct being the most neurotic), but you find them too shallow so I don't think it's the soc-first neurotic stuff for you.


    9. As a child I had many family issues. These things neve came up to me to a logical level back then, but I actually had delusions and fantasies in my head, archetypical stories and pictures. The only way I could express it outwards was being rebelling or feeling sad, but all of these seemed... almost normal to me as a kid, until I realized later I had some serious sht going on. I lacked the understanding of the situation of my surroundings, I just felt blue, and had weird pictures everywhere in my head. This is where Ti helped me - I had to analyze what I was imagining to realize what was wrong, and talk to Ti doms who explained what they saw around me back then.
    Not sure how much of it is specific to type, but an IEI-Fe guy told me the same about his childhood once: about imagining stuff and not realizing what was actually real (I don't mean schizophrenic level of delusions ofc, just a strong imagination). He also had some issues in his family.


    10. As a kid I could also enjoy spending time alone, just reading. And I was never popular, I didn't know how to connect to others.

    11. I can transform many times, at least it feels like it. I always feel like I'm becoming "complementary" to who I am with for a long time.

    12. I was always questioning reality as a child, what does exist, if this is reality, what ifs etc.
    All this seems pretty Intuitive, 11) is how Ni lead is described by Golihov, the latter part specifically (Ni creative transforms too a lot), with being complementary, adjusting to the other person. That would also be a result of responsiveness of introversion, perhaps.

    As for the rest- 13) seems Irrational. 14) is not really type related much, as in, you seem balanced here between the two approaches. 15) is a very IEI thing stereotypically.



    So I'm really not sure at this point. How much can we trust childhood and young people's personality, as their brain is not fully developed? Since I've found my best friends (SEE, IEI and SLE) I feel a lot more calm, neutral, natural, worry less. Maybe they just taught me something, or I find my place, I have no idea. But I don't know how much can we change. The fact that our personalities wouldn't change sounds weird to me in a way that our brain is now developed yet at the beginning, and if I remember correctly, Jung said that trauma can change your core.

    These above are the main reasons why I'm not sure if I'm Ni or Fe lead.
    You really do seem oriented by the quite unique/"weird" imagination, based on what you've said so far. The traits that could be EIEish are not 100% specific to EIE. You could say this about some of the IEIish traits too, sure, what's decisive for type isn't those traits. So if I had to decide, IEI>EIE for you.


    I actually think this is a smart approach, because many other factors can have an effect on someone. Not the "what", but the "how" and "why".
    Yeah, need to know the why too.


    What were the things that you saw as EIE traits in people then decided it can be just IEI things?
    Ah, well, the main stuff I can think of

    (not all of these traits would have to go together for each person ofc)

    - Focused a lot on outside emotional evaluations (Fe), and ethical concerns, orienting by them where more introverted-detached IEIs wouldn't care that much, just getting a very "feely"/Feeling vibe off them overall and of what they would say/think
    - Willing to express thoughts with high Intuition instead of keeping it to themselves (was assuming this was Ne demonstrative, based on noticing it in some people who self-typed as EIE)
    - Being pretty good at initiating with people in terms of relationships, or socially, or emotionally, building a connection
    - Connected with a lot of people, going around a lot, not sitting on their ass much lol
    - Decently energetic, even restless possibly
    - Trying to pay attention to everyone
    - Decent level of assertiveness, clear (and not too bad, even if slightly chaotic-seeming to me lol) attempts at maintaining assertiveness


    But yeah, all the extraverted seeming bits can be a well-socialized well-adjusted IEI-Fe and falsehope does mention a good description of IEI-Fe. DCNH subtype can also influence it. Some of this actually is quite typical of IEI-Fe as well, the third one and the one before the last one are often mentioned for IEI-Fe. First one is quite emphasized Fe/Feeling in general, sure, BUT: these people are not very directly emotionally expressive as much as actual EIE, more just in bursts. Sure, actual EIEs also are not going to be like that in all situations with strangers but sooner or later it becomes obvious that there's a lot of emotionality going on with them. Last one seems Se DS to me rather than Se HA also, because of not entirely meeting two-dimensional function's social norms with it, and is more Irrational "chaotic" in presentation. With EIEs their Se HA as far as I've seen it so far seems to be more "channelled" by Rationality and Fe, if this makes sense. A more purposeful and very emotionally adjusted (read: theatrical, rather than spontaneous) expression of anger too, for example.


    A couple more things I remembered about my observations for IEI vs EIE:

    IEIs (the Fe subtype only) offer a certain adaptable and very nice brand of Fe-attentiveness. EIEs have some attentiveness too but they are extraverts at heart (with their emotional theatre) so they are not going to focus on adjusting to the other party too much, while IEIs do that way more.

    EIEs subordinate everything else to the emotions and emotional evaluations. The Intuitive ideas follow suit too. An example of that would be, IEIs will present their Intuitive ideas directly and as we discussed earlier, I can find it hard to engage directly right away... While EIEs do this way less often, this direct presenting of ideas, and when they do, it's either short-lasting compared to IEIs, or the emotion comes first and the idea (Ni or Ne or whatever) comes after it, so for example: the mood is set first to be fun enough and then an accordingly fun idea is presented. And so on.


    @Myst, I realized by @Bertrand's post that this detailed conversation we are having might be really tiresome. If you feel like it, ignore my constant doubting. I'm still very interested though in your opinion on my points and childhood, but I would be happy even with a response to the last question (about what characteristics that you thought as EIE before you think of now as IEI), as I think I could learn from these a lot.
    No worries, not tiresome , just did not have time to put it all together before. Let me know if it helped any


    Quote Originally Posted by falsehope View Post
    The EIE women I know very often express high extroversion, for example taking up the voice in front of many people, and other things involving many people. Large amount of people is like a trigger to act.
    The IEI-Fe is not like that, but shows some extroversion as well, but a lot less in bold ways. For example, hosts parties at home every week and becomes everyone good friend and talks a lot of stuff with everyone but it's not leading voice like EIE is.
    EIE usually VIs very well just like for taylor swift or benedict cumberbatch. The extraverted intuitive type with feeling and rational is very characteristic.
    I agree the more social IEI-Fe's are like how you describe them. But I think EIE-Ni aren't that strongly extraverted either, just ambiverted extraverts. Though yeah they don't seem to express it the same way you describe IEI-Fe.
    Last edited by Myst; 06-22-2018 at 08:06 PM.

  12. #52

    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    106
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    .
    Last edited by 0i0; 09-16-2018 at 09:26 AM.

  13. #53
    squark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    2,966
    Mentioned
    240 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    @Kara, generally you can determine introversion/extroversion by initiative. If you usually prefer other people to reach out to you, to take the initiative, you're probably introverted. If you prefer being the person who reaches out to others, and find it awkward to be on the other side of this, you're probably extroverted. In groups of introverts, one will usually take the extroverted role, or they'll take turns. In groups of extroverts, they will either clash, or some will take introvert roles for a time.


    Longer explanation:

    Extroversion, being about objects, comes with it processing in those terms, and so regardless of type they're more likely to want to lead or act, or just naturally fall into those roles. EJs direct others, and can come across as bossy for it, EPs kind of burst in on the scene throwing out ideas (Ne) or actions (Se). IJs self-direct rather than other-direct like EJs, and IPs are the go-with-the-flow types. There are degrees to this, some more and some less, which is why the types get split into subtypes, but it's not so much an either/or as it is a continuum. That's why for instance, an IEI might not be able to decide whether they are Ni or Fe subtype, because the dividing point isn't especially clear.

    Introversion is about fields, or relationships between objects and this mode of processing naturally takes an observational nature, since you're seeing how one thing connects to or relates to another thing. You can even observe the difference on the forum. Those who are cranking out post after post, throwing ideas out, or sharing a lot of material, are usually extroverts. The introverts might put up some of their material, but it's been thought through for longer, they aren't producing as much on-the-fly, aren't as involved in the typings. They'll usually leave thoughts or information for the other person to go through and decide on their own. They may give a lot of information, but expect that if you have questions you'll look them up for yourself, or will ask. They usually don't want to be doing all the work for you, or teaching extensively. Expecting them to give more tires them out much faster than it does extroverts, it takes a lot more energy from them. And again the reason for this is processing . . . all their information connects with other things, so if they tell you something, a conclusion they've come to, there may be mountains of information behind that conclusion that you're not seeing, and sharing all of it would be overwhelming.

    Extroverts tend to be the ones who want to tell you what you are, or lead you to your type their way. And some of them talk a lot about themselves. You may learn as much or more about their type, and how they see it, or things they've experienced when they're typing you as you do about yourself. So it becomes their viewpoint superimposed onto you. (For some it's because they like to determine what objects are, and you're another object.) Not all do this of course, but that's an extroverted tendency more than an introverted one. Again, degrees and a continuum, so some have this tendency much more pronounced than others. Some introverts lean this way also, but it tends to be a sometimes thing with them rather than always operating like this. None of this has anything to do with will or willpower or the like, as it's just about initiative and processing. I'm adding that disclaimer because while I don't think you'll misunderstand me, others reading what I'm writing will, and will want to argue that I'm talking about something I'm not.

  14. #54

    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    106
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    .
    Last edited by 0i0; 09-16-2018 at 09:26 AM.

  15. #55

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    TIM
    LSI-Se sx
    Posts
    4,697
    Mentioned
    505 Post(s)
    Tagged
    25 Thread(s)

    Default

    @Kara - not forgotten, soon posting a reply

  16. #56

    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    106
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    .
    Last edited by 0i0; 09-16-2018 at 09:26 AM.

  17. #57

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    TIM
    LSI-Se sx
    Posts
    4,697
    Mentioned
    505 Post(s)
    Tagged
    25 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kara View Post
    If it makes sense, in most cases when I talk to someone, I immediately see what will be the end of it, and when I don’t have too much energy, I can through it in there, without explanation and explaining the steps, but people don’t really like that.
    Yes, that makes sense, that's a Ni thing to focus on how it will end. Ni lead makes the decisions primarily based on that though other Ni egos will see this kind of information too ofcourse.


    I guess that’s where the other factors come in – what did you have to develop in yourself to get through stuff.
    Yeah though I find it hard to imagine how one would ever manage to fully directly access for long enough to really develop their dual seeking function (or inferior function in Jung's theory). It can be integrated somewhat via Ego functions though. I can imagine the case of someone having done that and then talking about it like that, yes. It is great if that's done, I think.

    My (less confirmed so far) understanding overall though is that with the mobilizing function you more readily say things like this about the ability to rely on it somewhat, while you can say this in theory about dual seeking too but in practice it is less done. I.e. you believe that in theory you are able to rely on getting the needed info from your dual seeking function on your own, but in practice it is a way more tentative access. But yes you can do it sometimes.


    I could imagine that. I only know two EIEs, both of them are really ambitious and serious people, who try to keep a good prestige. They almost seem like outcasts, because they are really picky, whom they are talking to. I’m similar this way. When you start to talk to them (we usually like each other’s company), you can see how much confusion and uncertainty they actually have – despite their very behavior that says „wow, this guy knows his sht”. I can see what you and I wrote above in both types, yeah.
    Out of curiosity, are they male or female?


    This comes very handy in group situations for me, yes. I just usually lack the mindset when I would have to do small talk, so I don’t ask back sometimes. With him, I didn’t have to small talk, we straight up started to talk about the weirdest and grossest things, haha. It feels like somehow he is always thinking of me, and knows I'm there the consciously pulls me back from my head or introverted zone.
    I also can feel awkward in these group situations, because I feel weird and out of place, and he makes me feel normal.
    Lol it sounds like fun. It does sound like the psychological comfort duality is supposed to have (if all other circumstances are right too).


    Sometimes I do have an agenda in my mind, what I want to achieve, or if I’m testing someone, but not everytime. Do you have an example from your life? It sounds really fascinating.
    Unfortunately I can't describe such expressions with words. Or what would you like an example for?


    I think what I meant with the booking tickets for something was not necessarily about more spontaneity, but thinking bigger. For example, not „hey, wanna check out this café shop?” but „hey, wanna travel to the countryside with a tent, bathe in a river, get food from a gas station, and just look at the stars, then we’ll see where we will end up?”
    Oh, I actually like both ideas lol. But to think of something like the latter, I'd probably need to have some input from somewhere first to create the idea, e.g. the partner throwing up some similar idea first, and I would never present it as "hey, wanna..." unless I'm truly caught up in the moment emotionally. Which on my own rarely happens ofc, around Fe egos more of a chance for it.

    So overall, I think whether someone's willing to think bigger is not entirely type related but I'm sure that compared to LSIs SLEs think "crazier" on average and with needing less help with input for ideas, maybe (since they are not Ne PoLR). And so, if you find you work best with someone more like the SLE, that would again be an indicator of type. EIE on the other hand would not be "loose" enough to want to jump at such "crazier" ideas with thinking bigger so fast, I think, though I'm sure they can be convinced too or they can go for it easily if they are in the right mood and it seems like it wouldn't end bad.


    I used to be like that, I think.
    Yeah, IEIs can get fired up too, my point is IEIs have a more free type of expression of anger in such situations than EIEs. EIEs put/channel all the anger into the ethical judgment and express it as a more refined emotion, that theatrical thing I mentioned. IEIs will usually show the anger in a more raw way in terms of expression, not in the form of the refined "theatrical" emotion. At least the ones I've seen so far had this in common and it makes sense according to the theory too.


    1) I think I was so bold and bossy, and out there, that that’s why I’m not sure if I could still be an IEI.
    Oh ok, sorry, I can't say more without actually having seen it/without at least more details on it.

    This was the thing about Ni dominant being bossy when "preaching" their Ni vision of how things should be: "In their mode of life, and in their immediate environment, they seek to regulate everything according to their own ideas, which is apt to make them tyrants within their own small circle. Rather than adapt themselves, they will limit their contact with those who do not fall in with them. (...) The firm conviction of these people may in such cases arouse strong opposition or find blind support. They often lay down the law in regard to what they have perceived, without its even occurring to them that it might be possible to find incorrect as well as correct elements therein. This often makes their influence over others the more effective, but it may prepare the way for great confusion. One is reminded of the influence which a man like Nietzsche has had on our generation."

    From here (Ni dominant description): https://web.archive.org/web/20160305...H-van-der-Hoop

    Also: "Often, especially in circle of family, he becomes a critic, since deviation in behavior away from his principles turns him aggressive. If in another situation he will somehow restrain himself, at home he may allow himself to explode with anger."

    From here (Ni as leading function): http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Dmitry-Golihov


    6) Yes, and it was a long time ago, so I’m not sure what was in my head. I wanted to be what everyone avoided, I guess. I also felt there was truth and so much beauty hidden in things that were unavailable for others because of their way of thinking, and I loved seeing all this beauty.
    I see

    (Sorry can't really say much about the type here)


    I think so, it could be, yes. He was a very awkward outsider before – now he is really good with people, charismatic, speaks out etc. The funny thing is he doesn’t even see how much – sometimes he talks to women, almost in a flirting manner, and they are all over him – then he thinks he was „just kind”, haha.
    I've seen IEI guys like that...


    I could actually see that what causes me difficulties with group is not lack of Fe but that I’m a soc last, maybe. I’m an sx first for sure (at least that’s what I think).
    No longer sure 2 words later? lol


    Yes, it’s super weird looking back. If I would see this in a kid I knew, I would seriously consider psychosis – it wasn’t, but I think I remember that @Aylen once wrote in a post how she often had images that only one of her therapists saw as something not abnormal or as an illness, and I get that.
    Makes sense.


    One other thing I wanted to add is that my rebelling was also sometimes based on logic – not understanding some rules or the reason behind them, and getting angry because of that. Then trying to reason while yelling, questioning boldly and loudly (in our household you couldn’t really have a normal discussion though, because they immediately yelled), which usually ended up with punishment from their part. But I did it over and over again, because that’s what felt right and true, and I didn’t feel any respect towards someone, lacking explanations for their behavior.
    I think kids do need reasonable rules and predictability about them.


    I think with the transforming this, that’s what one thing that makes it hard for me to type myself or see myself as „one” thing. I feel like a chameleon, even when I’m not doing anything totally incosistent.
    Yeah, this, and your many parts you mentioned earlier, is it anything like the description then? I meant this part ""Fluid like a river": involuntarily adjusts himself to the interlocutor in conversation by taking form of consciousness that is best fitted for the situation. By this he isn't playing a role, his consciousness is simply multifaceted and he is directed by his inner "wholeness". That is, he simply presents a version of himself. Communicating with you, he always feels your moods as if he is living through them together with you, adjusts himself to this."

    (From here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Dmitry-Golihov)

    The Ni creative has it in a bit different way, that one explicitly talks about role playing.

    You said you adjust with the other person though, that's more the Ni lead.

    One more thing about having many parts... Just an article, to show a concept (of ego states) beyond Socionics too that could possibly fit it: http://www.egostateinternational.com...te-therapy.php


    Wow, this is super weird, I’d have seen these as EIE traits, but it’s good to see when someone actually doesn’t want to fall for the stereotypes.
    Yeah these are extraverted traits, but ambiverts can have them too, that's important to keep in mind.

    And yeah this is not simply about stereotypes, the directly cognition-related intrapersonal and interpersonal dynamics is what matters. Just because someone is decently social, it doesn't mean they are not following their Ni first and foremost.


    I think I can have my intentions hidden and speaking that way, or turn conversation in a way that matches what I want, but I also have these weird spontaneous bursts sometimes. I remember in one of your posts you were talking with @golden about an IEI ex of yours, and how he suddenly did something. This reminds me, when I randomly dance around walking with someone on a street, then stop it just as fast, or do something very out of place physically, then just randomly stop.
    Yeah it's like that.


    I see what you mean. I think I’m usually aware of the feeling in a group, and know what is inappropriate. I just like ignoring it sometimes – to have fun, be true to myself, or just because it can be entertaining to make people let their guards down, and to break thatarmor we are wearing. Seeing shocked faces in shallow discussion can be rewarding and fun – also how there will be people, who will actually join you, and laugh at these things. I also respect ideas and the unstructured way of life that it makes me not wanting to keep these social boundaries.
    I also like talking to strangers in this friendly manner, like calling them „dude” or making fun a little bit of myself about my lack of insight when it’s about money, or burocracy - so it makes everything less official. I feel uncomfortable in official environments, and feel it a little bit fake. I know who we are inside, and I can see in my imagination everyone at the end of the day, and in a way these seem like roles with costumes that people play - but why would anyone want to make their lives harder with it, instead of being upfront, and seeing each other as we are?
    I think I understand what you mean.

    With regards to type it just sounds like following an Intuitive vision. And maybe Fe in terms of modulating people's emotionality for the Ni vision's purpose, rather than simply leading people with your Fe. That would be more characteristic for Fe creative but I'm only going by these few words here.

    Out of curiosity too, when you are looking for putting these ideas into reality, what would you need? Type-wise, do you imagine SLE or LSI helping more with the implementation and why?


    But I'm rewriting this bit for the third time, as I'm not sure how I act or what I feel, because of the angles that are attacking me constantly, as I'm trying to pick one and be sure, etc. And when I pick one, write about it, even though it's true, it starts to feel like a nice tale, but just one from a lot of. So don't take this part above very seriously. Gosh, this happens so many times, I see so many things in someone, but when someone asks a basic question about my cognitive ways or internal mechanisms, I feel I can't see anything properly. At this point I'm not even sure if I'm right about this, so I'll just stop editing, haha. Can this be EIE's Ti? Or this is more like how Socionics irrationality would look like?
    You seem coherent just fine to me. I think this could be either Ti superid, regarding type, have heard this from both EIE and IEI before that they are not sure about Ti matters.


    You’re fine, I will not be offended even if you’ll never react to this thread again. You gave me so much insight, and your time is your time. I guess this is not the most interesting thing to anyone to spend their time with.
    Glad if it really helped that much.


    Why I asked you so much about if people can change is because it’s hard to see myself introverted as a child, almost like it developed over the years. I was always a bossy (I was kind of intimidating sometimes), scattered, moralizing, trying to teach people and having these big talks kind of kid. And even though I could be like that, I was shy, and got scared easily by strangers or people.
    I’ve changed a lot since. IEI would make a lot of sense from our conversations, I’m just wondering if a lot of childhood and teenage behavior can be relied upon when it’s about typing. I guess there are things I have to figure out for myself though, what had an impact on me, etc.
    I'd first ask the question if it could fit an ambiverted IEI (so not strongly introverted, able to socialize, etc) and not purely an extraverted type. IMO, but I only have a few details ofc, yes it can.

    Overall you could also try and look at the childhood stuff as IEI vs as EIE, in both ways, and see which explains it better, while also aligning it all with the general psychological explanations (outside Socionics) for them where applicable. Like you've put it very well, it's about looking at the whole structure, and as many parts as possible, I really liked that way of putting it.

    I believe if enough (many, imo) patterns of behaviour and expression of ways of thinking/cognition have been observed, putting all that together is about as good for typing as directly looking at mechanisms of cognition (the clockwork ) from introspection and analysis of interactions. But just a few observations won't be enough.

    Then if everything fits more neatly either with IEI or with EIE, using either method for typing, that'd give the answer, I think. But yeah, it can take a long time to get it all together like that to such a final conclusion.

    You can also add DCNH on top of all of it but the core type is to be figured out first, though considering DCNH motivations/traits can also help with putting traits loosely related to type into context.

    Another thing this makes me think of is, maybe this isn't even really about IEI vs EIE but more like you were always an introverted type but more balanced previously, and maybe you are seeking to regain that balance socially. Just a shot in the dark, but seems like there is a reason why you are analyzing these childhood things in terms of more extraverted behaviours etc. Maybe some trauma created inhibitions and regardless of type you'd want to process and solve that, ofc I don't know, just an example, I have no idea if you actually have such issues.

    Going back to type, obviously introverts would be more likely to utilize such introverted strategies of withdrawing and behavioural inhibition to deal with issues in their environment but ambiverted extraverts can too.


    But the strong Ni visions, my lack of interest in power, or an established career based on what the outside world would dictate, or to do any kind of jobs that would be for the sake of working is causing me a lot of headache. Sometimes I just feel annoyed or even angry, how we lost out priests and propehts, our seers and people of our collective (and subjective) inside world in a way. We have psychologists and Abrahamic religions, but it's not the same. I wish we could take life in our own time, each and every step, with some help of push sometimes to go out and forward too (Se?), but not how it is now. We have so little time to our inner truth, in our hurry and everyday tasks, that it makes me sad. We need to create, but how could anyone? Can this whole thing be Te PoLR and Ni lead? I only know I'm desperately craving Se IRL, and drink it like a thirsty plant. But I also find it very interesting when someone seems cold and hard/stric.
    Lol last two sentences sound like Se DS and Ti HA, at least if put in this way, sounds like less resistance to Se while finding Ti stimulating for your own Ti HA. If I didn't interpret this right, feel free to correct me.

    And yes it can be Ni lead.

    Again the question comes up... how would you like these visions implemented, i.e. make it real for people, what would help the most?

    I think the topic is actually interesting, I can see how informing others on how this inside world is good and helpful to focus on would have an actual use. And that actually sounds really good to me.


    I can see myself as an IEI, it's just my often times headstrong, passionate and loud former self is what is keeping me back from taking it immediately, and I don't want to believe I'm any type because of my fascination with it, or to think now I'm duals with someone, or any hidden reason.But this is the first time I considered my bossiness as something being lead by a vision, because as I remember, I somehow didn't realize it as a kid maybe the effect of the pushiness- it just seemed so obvious, I believe something, I "know" about it, and "understand". But I feel I could easily entertained other thoughts, and sometimes needed to point out questions that I didn't even had, but had to for the sake of an argument, or because I knew I was lacking the "whole picture", almost like a gut feeling. And when I didn't get it, I had a bad aftertaste (something is missing/I'm making emotional decisions, but there is another side to this I know I'm not considering due to being scared for example/there is a plothole in an argument/I'm saying something that feels like a line next in a script, but I feel my very core is saying something else).etc.
    Do you find the thing about the Ni vision helps explain stuff for you then? I.e. helpful?

    Yes, to believe it and "know" it as an obvious thing sounds like Ni in the context here.

    Type-wise, I think the second part here talks about Irrational openness and willingness to engage Ti more directly than Ti DS but this is a tentative interpretation of just these few lines ofc. I just see IEIs consider Ti issues more directly than EIE.

    And good to be try and objective as much as possible yeah


    Also looked at the (by the way very cool) description of functions, but I found EIE and IEI function orders were both accurate and inaccurate in some ways.
    The Golihov ones?

    Yeah I think that's normal to find parts fitting from both if you are not a very obvious case of either IEI or EIE. (I'm the same way with LSI vs SLE regarding this.) Hopefully over time it will be clearer which pattern is fitting you in a way that it makes significantly more sense eventually with more explanatory power.


    But yeah, this is why I'm asking how personality development is considered in Socionics and how much childhood behavior matters.
    Childhood behaviour on its own isn't enough for typing but it can be complementary information. There are some side theories on personality development I think but I don't have links to such theories atm.


    Also, if you had a thread about figuring out your Se vs Ti lead, can you send it to me? It sounds really interesting.
    I don't have a thread on it per se but I have a type thread where I discussed with @lynn (IEI-Fe) about LSI vs SLE and which one fits me more, he/she had pretty good observations of the two types. It did help me see some things clearer on them though I already decided on LSI. Beyond explanations on SeTi vs TiSe ego that we discussed and my descriptions of how this works for me, it discusses Ni vs Fe seeking too.

    Here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...onnaire-(Myst)

    In a nutshell though... I decided on my typing from this *core* summary of cognitions: SLE will see logic as one way to make sense of experiences where they readily make sensory associations of experiences by default otherwise, while LSI wants only one (the best) logical explanation that's then to be applied to actions in the tangible world (in the form of rules for actions with the reasoning for these rules).
    SLE is thus more open to more than one explanation while LSI really just wants the one explanation that's best and isn't open to alternatives readily. I'd add to this, in practice I'm not necessarily closed to hearing stuff from others, it just means I'd want see if integration of those other thoughts into the "one explanation" is possible, i.e. I can and will consider other thoughts, but it's not seen as alternatives, so I'm not going to play around with explanations, it's taken more seriously than that. Otoh, I can update the whole explanatory system to a new level with a paradigm shift sometimes. That's just not often.

    Another main summary for me is about my Se approach (the above one is about my Ti approach primarily) vs SLE's,
    SLE's answer to this Se question "What is the core of any force?": "Momentum."
    While mine as LSI: "Active and very focused energy put towards the object/into the goal/target."

    That means, I do prefer to channel the Se force by having some purpose to my actions and I easily follow a course with a strong focus rather than just being spontaneous with big momentum and with less focus, even if I am able to adapt in the moment to some Se challenges coming up too, it doesn't look the same as SLE's approach.

    I could also contrast Fe HA/DS etc...


    It seems to me the hardest thing is to decide which need of ours is connected to which cause, illnesses, traumas - seeking the deepest causes, whether it's a core or something formed by an experience. If I'd been repressed seriously, would I be more attracted to Se? If I would have a hard time understanding my values and standpoints, because I was raised in a very seriously religious household, would I be more attracted to Fi? But oh well, i guess this is why you need to look at the whole picture - almost like a living mechanism, a clockwork alive, putting together those screws and metal parts, and see if it comes to life.
    Yeah, I believe it's important to find that core and then a lot of things will follow from that neatly is what I find. What you call "it comes to life".


    OFF: Also, what do you think about the „what is happening outside to all of us is mine, what is happening inside me is all of yours” kind of archetypical thinking? Is it an extraverted or introverted viewpoint? Since it has both in it.
    Sorry, I can't type that.


    Edit: Sorry, last question, and might end up opening a thread about this one in particular, but I see everywhere how IEIs give inspiration and help find meaning. I don't think I'm necessarily out there, giving people purpose and goals, or tell them what is the meaning of life, and make a lecture, but what I do is I feel I must share beautiful, inspiring and deep things. Movies, music, books, ideas, and talk and ask about them, sharing what I think shows meaning and greatness and beauty - even if there are no necessarily words for it. Of course when I'm contemplating with someone, meaning can come up as a debate topic, but sometimes it's subtle, just hints of what I feel is important part of what is true, deep and beautiful, by art, stories I read about, news, my own thoughts... For example showing fractals and sacred geometry, movies with important messages, songs that move something inside you... So in the end I have no more idea than you do in a debate about the meaning of life, but I feel I can show things that are close to something holy, or meaningful. Is it how it would work with IEIs?
    I think your sharing beautiful, inspiring and deep things is exactly about giving/helping find a meaning and inspiration for people and yes I find that quite IEI. It's pretty subjective meanings, I think. Not some objective meaning of life. Does that make sense?


    I have a question too from earlier

    With Se-doms the issue that can rise is that they doesn’t really get emotionally involved in my ideas, and maybe forget about them in the next minute
    What kind of emotional involvement are you looking for? Do you see it with LSIs or other people?


    All in all... IIRC before you edited your post you said you would be ok with trying on IEI. Of course this is entirely up to you as to what you do, so if your question was whether the childhood stuff would exclude it, my answer is no, it can be IEI fine, from the few details at least that you've said so far. You could also still consider EIE-H if you want, see if that makes things fall in line more on the whole, though from the data so far I believe it overall seems more IEI stuff cognitively. The patterns too seem to consistently point towards that.
    Last edited by Myst; 07-01-2018 at 09:32 PM.

  18. #58

    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    106
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    .
    Last edited by 0i0; 09-16-2018 at 09:26 AM.

  19. #59

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    TIM
    LSI-Se sx
    Posts
    4,697
    Mentioned
    505 Post(s)
    Tagged
    25 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kara View Post
    @Myst I will answer today to all posts, and thank you for yours, I really appreciate them. They gave me a lot to think about, and a viewpoint I have never considered before, so I had to think about it a bit.

    Edit: I might also going to take this to PM level, as there are details that are needed to build a whole system, but they are more personal.
    Ok, cool. And sure, no problem with PM.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •