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Thread: How to deal with envy and Delta Quadra Complex.

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    Default How to deal with envy and Delta Quadra Complex.

    Delta Quadra is afraid of:
    - underestimation of their creative and possibilistic potential;
    - Any restrictions imposed on their possibilities and creative potential;
    - afraid of their stupid questions and primitive conceptions that involuntarily force them to lower and understate the level of their work, to adapt and fit it into another's narrow and miserable worldview; afraid of any comments that remind them that out there there's a huge number of ignoramuses who consider themselves in the right to bring all the creative potential of a person down to their own primitive level, and later, using words of other "authoritative critics", guilt and shame this person for the "primitive" and "crude" level of their work.
    Delta quadra is afraid:
    - of the contradictory statements, that drive their work and their creative search to a standstill;
    - of stupidity, jealousy, and ignorance of random self-appointed critics who can, incidentally, with a single careless and tactless word or action, push them down from the height of their achievements and honors (simply because some enjoy being destructive).

    Delta Quadra fears the destruction of all that they see as valuable, good, positive, wholesome and is afraid of people who destroy from feelings of envy and jealousy, out of their own inadequacy, or out of boredom, having nothing to do, "just because", "to have some fun in life".

    The fear of these destructive influences, the fear of shattering of one's hopes and creative plans, awaits the creative person, who everywhere runs into the envy and the envious; the fear of the inability to realize one’s own creative potential, being surrounded by jealous and vengeful people, who self-assert and entertain themselves by the destroying other people's creative initiatives and plans; the fear of being thrown down from the heights of honors and attained creative goals - such fears constitute the most wide-spread phenomenon in Delta Quadra.

    The destruction of hopes connected with the realization of ambitious creative goals, the fear of obstacles that arise along this way, the fear of limitations placed on the creative and possibilistic potential, in this essay we will conventionally call the COMPLEX OF CLIPPED WINGS.


    Here are the sings of an envious person.




    What are the signs of an envious person?

    There are 2 kinds of clues that reveal an envious person: What they do AND what they should do, but don’t.

    What an envious person does:

    Thinks about the person they envy a lot, they are like a creepy stalker that obsesses about others.
    Their thoughts are of dislike and hate.
    They think about those things they envy (tangible or non-material like looks, character traits) and ruminate how your attributes diminish them (in their own mind).
    They downplay your successes or sweep your successes under the rug altogether.
    They look at you with contempt, but their words speak of something resembling admiration (believe the contempt).
    They make plans on how to get what you have for themselves.
    They try to make you look less significant, so they can put themselves on a pedestal (at least in their own mind).
    They try to substitute the things they envy you for which they cannot get, with other things that they can get/buy/acquire.

    WHAT THEY DON’T DO:

    Don’t sincerely compliment you, sometimes as a substitution to a compliment you get a sarcastic, underhanded remark that they insist was given with the best of intentions, and you just misunderstood it.
    Don’t acknowledge your successes.
    Don’t like you, but pretend to be your friend.
    Don’t want your happiness, and often go behind your back to sabotage it.
    Can’t stand seeing you happy, and try to convince you that your success and happiness was a matter of luck, is not deserved, not good, not worthy.. and all that because they want it for themselves, but can’t get it.



    Last edited by Hope; 04-28-2018 at 05:03 PM.

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    I think this is just a subspecies of "why do people treat people bad in general" only couched in terms of envy leading to mistreatment. people whether envious or not find all sorts of pretense to be bad to one another, and envy is often just what we infer as the cause of mistreatment, but really its a person's capacity for envy, which is really just capacity for sin. which is an innate attribute of humanity. in short there's nothing you can do to make people act right. even if you leveled yourself down to nothing people would still "envy" you the way they envy and cut down mother teresa and so on. in the final analysis it simply takes courage and strength to stand up to it or bear it. some people maybe you can talk to, but they're probably the exception since if they were amenable to that solution it probably wouldn't have come to mistreatment to begin with. the one thing to take comfort in is that people who mistreat others really only hurt themselves, there is always a compensatory factor, assuming the mistreatment is real and not simply imagined in order to push a victim complex (which I do not think in your case it is, but I'm just sayin'). and I don't know how comforting it is, ultimately, that people hurt themselves, but it means you have all the revenge you could ever want, if that has any appeal. if not, we simply accept this as a condition of being and strive to make things as good as possible despite the negative side of things. perhaps in the end the negative is necessary to provide meaning to the positive so the bad treatment serves some ultimate albeit mysterious purpose

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    Speaking from the perspective of somebody who has struggled with being the envious party. Envious people hate themselves and while they act out horribly and all gross-like, it comes from a desire for self-satisfaction, I feel.

    Oftentimes, especially when I was younger, I would feel incredibly envious of other people due to being very self-centered and fearful of what I felt I could not accomplish. Sometimes I would admire somebody, and then it would turn into envy because I felt I wasn't capable of that. I would feel like a failure and retreat into my head, focusing on why I couldn't do what I wanted to be capable of, and in doing so I actually became helpless. Depression already had my motivation at an all time low, and it compounded this by forcing me into just total inaction. Appreciation of other people would turn into questioning, wondering why I wasn't particularly good at much, and why I wasn't as socially capable or talented or.. or whatever. I ended up being envious of like everybody to some extent... and it really creeped into my relationships with people.

    I think, from my experience, what the envious person wants is that sort of hope that they can be capable of something; that they can be encouraged to improve themselves on a healthier level. This is totally anecdotal, though, and with me it was mostly built off of a pre-existing condition, so I'm not certain of this would apply to everybody... like I'd compliment people, but throw myself under the bus for not being good enough comparatively. Being able to appreciate oneself and focus on putting effort into bettering the self should definitely help... and a solid idea of the perspective on how the object of envy specifically GOT to that point, elaborated on thoroughly with reinforcement and support, I know would have helped me earlier on.

    TL;DR they need professional help. There's really nothing you can do without cutting out a piece of yourself for them. It's a matter of if you want to put that much effort into managing somebody else's emotional state and insecurity, which I doubt anybody would; it's exhausting.

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    @Bertrand

    Thank you bert. I had always thought the same actually, that there is not so much to be do about it. But I wanted to ask others because maybe there are better ways to deal with it or get the person acting different, IDK, I'm not too strong in ethics either so I thought it wont be idle. lol

    And no, its not my imagination because other ppl had noticed it too and the persons said it themselves.


    Thank you @Mio Q that was very insightful! Its very useful to read what are the thoughts or feelings from the other side.

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    Like Mio said, I think people who are like this are not really stable and secure in themselves and where their own lives are headed with their own goals in life. To go out of your way too much to try to change these people is going to drain your resources.

    If they persistently hover around you, you need to make some sort of effective cut and stay away from them as much as possible, to preserve your sanity. Maintain your privacy and deal with them as little as possible, until they simmer down a bit and hopefully figure out their own lives naturally, and leave you alone.
    [Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.

    It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.

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    That's simple, just change types. then you won't be envious

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal View Post
    what do you think @Mio Q, should I just leave things like that with her and not contact her ever again (not even to say sorry)? Should she be part of important things or it will be better to not?
    This is hard to gauge right now, since I don't exactly have a solid picture of your relationship to this person. I think baby steps would be the appropriate response to the situation, if we're speaking generally. You likely would not want to hurt this person, an I'm assuming it wouldn't be right for you to just up and ditch her out of your life entirely, so I think a building up of boundaries between the two of you would be the action to take. Let her know, verbally or non-verbally, that you're distancing your feelings and your trust from her emotionally. Apologize if need be, but I think it would be all right to still include her in events and the like; politeness I think should remain consistent, but only so far as a general level. You need time to distance from one another, so that if you ever are to interact again, it can occur when things have sort of cooled down... assuming things have already escalated at this point. If the stalking and the rage keeps up, let them know you're cutting them out of your life; you've given them leeway and a second chance, and they screwed themselves.

    It's tough because I can't measure the situation with the degree of this amount of information. I'd love to offer more advice, but I'm not certain how effective this would be depending on the current stage of things. I think it's good to give people an extra chance (I hate blocking people out of my life entirely, personally), but if they just lapse back into that behavior then they aren't worth your time and they need to heal away from your influence on them.

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    I think there's a component of self-recognition, from the side of the person who's envying, when envy occurs. I can envy only in the measure that I can imagine how a possible scenario would have been possible for me to achieve, if only... *add explanations/excuses*. So we don't envy big famous people who hit the gossips, are rich, etc, but we can envy our colleague who got the promotion, who was working side by side with us, or we can envy the old friend that we stalk on facebook when we see he's now got a family, travels the world, makes all sorts of cool yet very affordable things, which we ourselves could have achieved... *if only*...

    It would be cool to explain to said people, who put too much effort into comparing themselves to others, that by doing so they're only just putting themselves down. It would be cool to explain them that perhaps they didn't attain the same external achievements because it was not meant for them to achieve them, and it would be cool to explain to them that they can succeed too in everything they want, and that everything they want should be in line as possible with what they are.

    I don't believe there's people "who are just evil-intendioned", or that "love to destroy everything/everyone". I've met many, sure, but each one, and myself, all had our own personal reasons for doing the sort of evil that gets labeled as evil... in most cases, they're broken people. What should you do?, nothing. It's only up to them to realize themselves, and with realizing I mean even to know themselves, in the very first step. You can help this process, by trying to highlight the special quirks of a person that make each of us unique, and that probably the person who's envying you is too ashamed to show because he's too busy stalking you and imagining all sorts of possible scenarios where he'd have achieved the same sorts of things...

    But you don't have to do this, this is more the work of an inspirer, and it would drain anyone.

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    > Delta quadra is afraid:
    - of the contradictory statements

    it's Ti. hence more about Ti valued types

    > - of stupidity, jealousy, and ignorance of random self-appointed critics who can

    again "self-appointed" is about status. Ti value

    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    I think there's a component of self-recognition, from the side of the person who's envying
    Envy is the feeling about injustice. When it's redundant due to social norms - it's assigned as bad.

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    nah what Strat is saying is Ti Se types often couch predictions/objections in terms of absolute tautologies like "you'll never get published with that title", and stuff to that effect. it has a wing clipping effect. delta is afraid of Ti in the sense of its rigid uncomprehending absolutism. contradictory in this context means contrary to whatever the delta is aiming at or aspiring to. the thing about critics is more about how some people always reserve the right to cut you down and give their assessment, whether requested or not, and without respect for how it might effect you because they can't appreciate the big picture hence ignorance, thus "self appointed" since it entails a stance that is not strictly speaking necessary, i.e.: its within their control, hence "self appointed"

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    Its not just about Beta vs Delta, is about Delta vs Delta too. Since envy arises from what we care about not what we dont (and deltas and betas doesnt share the same values at all). Being possible for NF types especially, to be envious about others success, especially another in the same quadra, i.e. competition.

    Then, the article doesnt speak about envy raised from injustice (like for example social injustice, which interest especially Beta, but also Gamma*), but envy risen from a need for respect and superiority (aristocracy) that cannot be completed due the perception of a constant success of other (s), which means rising the standards higher and higher each time (this all in the sphere of Te, Ne, Fi and Si. Spirituality, ethics, possibilities, skills, creative plans, innovative projects, space, etc which are the areas of interest for Delta).

    Delta values and interests doesnt go round "worldy" matters, those are left for the rest of the Quadras and come to be depreciated in Delta:


    On the background of such ambitious demands, even the highest instances of heroism and professionalism begin to dim, while the achievements of other quadra seem almost laughable. In Alpha Quadra, Deltas are frankly bored: there it all starts and ends with conversation, while one can only dream of real success. Of Beta Quadra there's nothing to say: there everyone is trying to seize power, to make a career, instead of "rising above" and aiming for those frontiers that are higher than any worldly power. Gamma Quadra are generally boring people. What can one talk with them about? The only interests they have is work - home, work - home. And this is life?

    Another matter is the fourth quadra. Here lies the real expansive field for creativity! The real freedom for imagination! Here, any person is either enlightened or genius! Here, even a simple bum is not a nobody, but a wandering philosopher, a treasure chest of wisdom, an abyss of talent.

    The confluence of predominating aspects assigns the following properties to the Delta Quadra:
    - boundless perfection of one's skills, pursuit of the highest (beyond the bounds, even other-wordly), professionalism (+Te↑);
    - unlimited expansion of allowable opportunities, pursuit of transcendent possibilities (-Ne↑);
    - constant renewal and updates to sphere of interests; renovation and expansion of one's habitat ("resettlement programs"); aspirations for out-of-bounds spaces (-Si↑);
    - perfection in the area of ethical interactions; the pursuit of the highest spirituality to the otherworldly dream of "peace and cloudless happiness for all mankind" (+Fi↑).

    Out of the combination of the properties of all aspects that predominate in the Delta Quadra, there arises a very high level of competition of ambitious creative plans, prospective original ideas, and valuable innovative projects.

    Becoming a hero, or a professional and specialist of the highest class in Delta Quadra is very respectable. But what gathers even more respect is to go beyond the permissible possibilities and to become a visionary, a prophet, a psychic healer, a miracle worker, or a saint. The plank of standards and demands in Delta Quadra is constantly being raised higher and higher - what yesterday was in the realm of impossible, today is almost commonplace.

    It presents a difficulty for Delta types to live among representatives of other quadra - their demands and expectations are too high and hard to live up to. The hardest time they have in the orthogonal and opposite to them Beta Quadra, where on mere self-opinion and conceit one cannot get far. Neither will the Beta Quadra permit a person to depart to virtual reality - they will bring him down to the solid ground, push him out as the "weak link", lead him to a "monastery" as a "sacrifice".

    Neither it is always easy for the Delta Quadra to exist among their own: on the background of high, ambitious ideas, there arises high competition of projects and plans that are only enough to announce to assert oneself. One person voiced something, another made an announcement - and lo and behold, they started to respect each other for the next half an hour, further waiting for their words to become embodied into actions, into something concrete - waiting for that miracle that has to happen. (And if this miracle doesn’t occur, it is always possible to change the facts - to say that somewhere it has already happened - and someone has even witnessed it and was able to use its results: and thanked for the good advice and the miraculous method or remedy.)

    There are enough wits and sharp tongues in the fourth quadra. Here everyone is JUDICIOUS and has no trouble being glib-tongued, never at a loss for a word or a retort.

    Like any other "objectivists” - pragmatists, Delta Quadra - are masters of bluffing, mystifying, and elevating their own value. The leaders of this quadra are the "declaring", "child-like" intuitive ethical types - who are protected by their snobbery, convinced of their rightness and of their higher destination, and certain that intentions can justify the means if only the intentions were good.

    Delta Quadra does not tolerate:
    - When their right to spiritual, moral, professional, and creative self-improvement and self-realization is challenged;
    - When their moral, spiritual, intellectual, and professional superiority is questioned and challenged.

    For Delta Quadra, especially intuitive types, it could be painful to witness the intellectual, spiritual, moral and professional superiority of others - due to which he wishes to humiliate them, the more so the more this turns into real successes and advantages for them. Envy towards the success of others - is one of the most widespread manifestations of the Delta Quadra complex of "clipped wings": the fewer personal successes, the more ambitions and the more jealousy is aimed at the successes of another (the feeling of personal loses needs to be compensated for somehow).

    Delta Quadra does not tolerate:
    - When their right to an all-sided and fullest implementation of their creative ideas, their possibilistic, intellectual and spiritual potential is being challenged;
    - When someone is challenging their right to enjoy (even slightly) their successes, plans, and fantasies.
    - When they are not allowed to be proud of them, to rejoice at ridding of the envy towards other people's success, to rejoice at the victory over their own pride.

    Delta types can engage in creative self-realization, in attempts to find themselves, in self-development and perfection until very old age (if they are not obstructed). The motto of Delta Quadra is: maximum successes, opportunities, and prospects - to maximize the implementation of all that is possible and wanted.

    The ability to incline others to make concessions while not conceding themselves - is one of the greatest victories of Delta Quadra. Slogans: "Think about others!", "Yield your rights to another!", "Give up your privileges for the benefit of others!" - turn out to be that very same measure that curbs the rights of others, allowing the Delta "controller-mentor" to act in full swing, to the maximum of his strengths and abilities, to the full extent of his potential, while he himself remains free from any possibilistic limitations. By controlling and subordinating others, he obeys no one himself - nothing binds and chains his own creative initiatives and plans, nothing hinders the growth of his ambitions and the creative flight of his imagination.

    In Delta Quadra the skies are free and open for all (in theory!) - each person has the right to freedom of creative self-expression. Each has the right to endlessly cultivate his or her talents, to later realize them in grandiose projects that bring benefits to society, moving it far ahead.

    With such an abundance of "flights" of individual creativity, in lieu of of this (even if imaginary, conditional) encouragement towards active creation ("Create! Take off! But do not obstruct others!"), in "heaven" - in the realm of creative and business beginnings of Delta Quadra - space becomes just as overcrowded and tight as on the ground, in the mortal bustling world of Gamma Quadra and all previous quadrants.

    Therefore, in the "airspace" of bold creative explorations and ambitious darings of Delta Quadra, one should be particularly polite and careful so as to not cast down one's contact in a case of a collision, so as to not cause him irreparable damage by this - such are the rules! These rules are mentioned everywhere. Those who violate these rules are not taken into the team, but instead pushed out of projects and business, taught and re-educated at every step, ruthlessly "broken", and, after losing all hopes for their rehabilitation, passed around a mile away.

    Themselves Delta Quadra, in an effort to seize initiative and come out to a leading position, also go around these rules. Sometimes they aggressively react to the slightest resistance to their opinion, their will, wishes, action plan, and initiatives. (This is understandable and acceptable: their natural ("aristocratic") desire to dominate, to aggressively impose their opinions and will ("heterogeneity on trait of aggression") is what allows them to self-organize into hierarchies and establish vertical chains and links within the system.)

    Another option - is the assertion of moral superiority and domination through the accumulation of ethical benefits (+Fi ↑) - manifests itself in the pursuit of the superficial, illusory peace, due to which Delta Quadra itself, and especially "child-like" ethical types, often fall into the position of a victim, encountering deaf resistance and lack of understanding of their positive ethical motivations.

    Imposing on their contacts the "game of giveaway" and relying on reciprocity in yielding and making concessions (at least out of politeness), Delta Quadra is upset and disappointed when they are instead met with a boorish, user attitude to their generous and sincere offers of love, friendship, and mutual assistance ... Their dreams of mutually beneficial, pleasant, and relaxing interactions turn into dust - the world is, as it turns out, not ready for such pure and sublime relations. A feeling arises of condensing "crowdedness" and disarray, simultaneously - a sense of harsh and vicious struggle and confrontations, where all are pushing each other, pushing out, pushing away, casting down from dizzying heights, ruthlessly undercutting each other wings; refusing to understand each other even when explanations are given. A desire comes up to "punish", to reject all of this frustrating and disappointing reality, but this doesn't fit with the postulated ethical principles, among which modesty and forgiveness - are principal.

    Although, later on, after the battle, one may "shake his fists", recall all the lost privileges and to try to restore them. One can conduct "educational work" with one's contact (especially if this is a close person or a permanent partner). Talk with him seriously, condemning his behavior and reminding where and in what he was wrong, to "teach him for the future". The one who is first to find a fault to pick - the first one to seize the initiative, the first to express his offense and disappointment, the first to capture the role of the "mentor" - will hold a "debriefing" of all the "take offs and flights", and will leave the last word to himself - he will become the "supervisor" and push himself into the role of a "dominant" in his current relationship. He will impose onto his contact the role of the "guilty", thereby pushing him to subordinate positions, and monitor his behavior at every opportunity, reminding him of his past (real or fictional) faults and guilt - "he didn't say the right thing", "didn't look the right way", "upset or offended a person by a defiant tone "... (the possibilities are endless here).

    Further on, this still situational "dominant", will continue to struggle for the right to control the actions of his "ward". He will monitor his behavior, his current personal ties and relationships, reprimand, edify, and mentor, and, raising the demands, seek further concessions from him. Arbitrarily changing his system of evaluations and attitudes towards his "ward's" actions, the "dominant" will manipulate him, pushing him into an even more humiliating subordinate position. He put the "controlled" into a more dependent position, which subsequently will become more constant and fixed by established tradition, habit or ritual. The “subordinate” will be required, at a certain intervals, to report of his actions, hear out new criticisms, get new "instructions" and strictly comply with them, and then report on them again.

    Any attempts to change anything in these relations that have folded up to date may be deeply disappointing and hurtful to the "mentor": it turns out he wasted his time in vain - his hopes to "re-educate" the person did not realize - his work did not bring any results. For each new disappointment and frustration, for the destruction of hopes and illusions and inflicted in connection with this offenses, the "controlled" will have to answer again: regardless of the outcome, the educational effect on him will be exerted with an even greater, many times multiplied force.

    And every expenditure of effort needs to be compensated. Thus, the "controller" (expecting a recoupment of all "costs" incurred by him in the present and in the future) also becomes a victim of his educational project - a victim that very "hoax" into which he initially pulled the "controlled". It will be a good resolution of this situation if the "controlled" person, faced with real fruits of this labor, realizing himself a helpless and nonviable "zombie" - a puppet in foreign hands, a victim of other's ambitions and foreign evil will - does not repay his "controller" with all that is due, and thank him in full measure for all the "good" - for all the forced and irreversible concessions, for the inescapable humiliating position, for the series of omissions that have left no hope and no chances for the future, for his crippled by bondage and slavery past and present life, which essentially isn't a life at all.

    The habitual conviction in his own correctness does not allow the "mentor" to admit his own mistakes. When faced with the actual evidence of his guilt, he, even if he plays the game of "being hurt", won’t deem himself to be "guilty". The false, polysemous pathos of Delta intuitive types and characteristic for them snobbery - is a common characteristic of Delta Quadra's complex of "clipped wings". And it often gets expressed as an effort to renounce and turn away from the realities of their existence, and soar in their own opinion of themselves, to an out-of-reach for others subjective idealism, in a bid to be above any objective criteria and evaluations, remaining inaccessible to being compared with others in their own closed off and self-contained world of their own inflated self-esteem.

    The feeling of regret left behind by lost hopes and shattered illusions, the dissatisfaction with the surrounding world, the unwillingness to accept it with its rough and brutal realities, the fears and concerns of one's inability to change the world for the better, become the "other side of the coin" - the negative side effect of the dominating in Delta Quadra aspects (+Te +Fi -Ne -Si) - and create the preconditions for a double-standard approach to life. They form the ideological concepts that allow a person to leave this harsh reality for an alternative transcendental world (dominant traits of "aristocracy" and "judiciousness") and simultaneously keep the person in the real world by fear of getting pushed out due to objective reasons (dominant feature of "objectivism"). These factors create tendencies that allow Delta Quadra (intuitive types) to influence the conditions of formation of relationships in the world, in order to ultimately improve them and bring them to a high level of purity and beauty, by means of which it is intended to bring together the real world with the world of the desired (and imaginary), thereby making the real world more welcoming and comfortable for people of the finest spiritual nature.

    Failure to reach this goal by simple and accessible means in the foreseeable short periods of time leads ethical intuitive ("child-like") types of Delta Quadra fall into despair, forcing them to resort to searches for new alternative (and often illusory) conditions for existence, in which (in their opinion) the real world won't be much different from the imagined.

    The predilection to choose conditions under which one can safely indulge in dreams without thinking about the very real threat of displacement in the real world - is also a manifestation of the complex of "clipped wings". (After all is incredibly painful to fall out of an imaginary reality in real one! Who wants to feel like a bird that has been shot down in flight?)

    The desire to protect oneself from disappointment, the desire to escape from the harsh reality, the need to dream of potentialities and soar towards them on soap bubbles in an effort to replace the real reality with the imagined one, creates the phenomenon of subjective idealism of Delta ethical intuitive types, EII Dostoyevsky and IEE Huxley, that, however, runs counter to their quadral trait of "objectivism". In an effort to reconcile this contradiction, Delta Quadra types (primarily ethical) form a two-moded attitude to the objective reality - they set up and organize for themselves and for others a "life in a pink light". (For themselves - voluntarily, for others - by suggestion or imposition.)

    This vision is realized in a very simple and unsophisticated way: all that is negative gets placed outside the brackets, negative phenomena (or even discussions and stories about them) become excluded from the scope of human communication in hopes and calculation that positive traditions, observed as a ritual and instilled into the framework of law, will, at some point, completely replace negative phenomena (and related vices) of which people will simply forget. Negative phenomena will disappear, leave with the past (like an atavism), and the reality will become no different from the desired virtual one. And then one would no longer need to wear the rose-colored glasses - the world will become more kind and supportive, and the negative will simply find no place in it. Until then it is necessary simply to reject and turn it down - to not talk about it, to not mention it, to not be interested in it, and organize social interactions and relationships in a way that excludes the negative from the very start, as a phenomenon that in itself is very dangerous.

    How, for example, can one build relationships that exclude such vices as greed and envy? - It's very simple!

    In Canada, where the integral type is TIM EII, Dostoevsky, delicate attitudes are shown everywhere (people are exceptionally friendly, tactful, and sensitive). But this doesn't go down without its excesses. Particularly sensitive attitude here is shown towards those who are most touchy and easily offended. Offense on the grounds of jealousy is taken into account in the first place. For this reason, it is customary here to organize friendly or corporate parties with proportionate distribution of treats ("a party in the style of EII"). It is believed that this method ensures sensitive and humane attitude that excludes envy and resentment over the fact that someone ate more while someone else got a smaller serving. From this comes the rule that you cannot bring your own food, because this breaks down the quantitative balance of treats, and the hostess would be offended thinking that her culinary talents were underestimated. When a party is organized as a potluck or from contributions of the attendees, everything is thought through to the finest detail. The number of guests is calculated as well as the number of servings, and the purchases are assigned according to this calculation so that each person spends about the same amount of money. (So that no one is offended or financially strained). Corporate parties don't even need to be mentioned - everything is strictly calculated and distributed to those attending. Refreshments can be most modest. If needed, the party can do with one slice of pizza and one can of Coke per each person attending, if only no one is hurt or dissatisfied.

    And it isn't that important that under such circumstances a corporate party is more like a holiday celebration in an orphanage. (No one notices this. They are already used to it.) The main thing - is that everything was done in fairness and harmony in human relations was achieved. The behavior of the guests at the party is strictly controlled. And how could it be otherwise? - One omission, and the grievances and accusations start: "Everyone was supposed to take two slices of pizza, but someone took four, and now another guest didn't get his food."

    To avoid this, - to avoid even the possibility of such thing happening, a new method was developed for corporate parties (again, in the style of EII), under which each employee is issued a number of multi-colored tickets before the event. With these tickets, he goes to the "food dispensary" (no other name for this) and on each ticket gets the proper portion of food. It prohibited to exchange or pass the tickets to others, so that no one sees someone else getting an extra portion and feels cheated himself.

    Such is the system. Terribly primitive and very flawed in itself, despite the best efforts of the organizers to make it extremely ethical. The backfiring (corrupting) result is achieved due to the fact that such organization works to morally support the jealous and envious people, setting up for them most favorable and sparing conditions. (An extra piece in someone else's mouth doesn't prick their eyes - most importantly! The effect is, however, that the vice of envy and jealousy under such conditions is not overcome - instead benign conditions are created for it.)

    This system is in principle unethical not only because it involves coercion against the person (what kind of holiday is it when every piece is counted!), but also because the ethical issues here are "resolved" (figuratively speaking) by means of logical manipulation. The aspect of ethics of relations of EII Dostoevsky (+Fi/-Ne) that extends good treatment for all, here gets replaced by the aspect of logic of relations, of fair distribution of LII Robespierre (-Ti /+Ne), giving it a dominant position, forcing it to appease the situation and work here instead. With such substitution of ethical aspect for logical one, every person feels themselves under pressure (in forcibly imposed on them conditions) and under the supervision - and becomes aware that he or she isn't trusted, which is a humiliating realization.

    As a result, in the depths of their souls, everyone is offended by mistrust and by large don't feel themselves partaking in a holiday celebration. Under such circumstances, it's still a long way to go towards harmony in human relations. What kind of harmony is it when everyone is under surveillance! What this means is that this method doesn't solve ethical problems. Or it does solve them, but only in the "alleged", imaginary, subjective, artificial ideas and notions of the organizers, who believe that they are doing the right thing: "people need to be re-educated". And then the question arises: how much more time will it take to re-educate them? When can one start trusting them?

    After all, at one point, someone will have to loosen control and take off their rose-colored glasses - and what will we see then?

    If one's own personal strength is not enough to overcome envy, greed, and mistrust towards others, then what about the prerogatives of the evolutionary ethics of relations (+Fi) - of which moral self-improvement or moral achievement can be talked about? If a person is spared from the responsibility of having to answer for his actions before himself, then his own inner moral framework is never formed: he invests no efforts into building his own moral codex, into his own moral improvement, and instead relies on external ethical dictates to lean on them as support. And if conditions are created that eliminate the need to struggle against one's own flaws and temptations, then there are no positive developments over them - strong conscience, love of one's neighbor, sense of responsibility, sense of duty and loyalty towards friends, none of these are "activated" or in demand here, and, over time, with such conditions, these ethical notions may completely atrophy.

    *
    1. Fears and concerns that arise from Beta quadral complex.

    From the combination of the properties of all predominant quadra traits listed above, in Beta Quadra society there arises a harsh struggle for power, for the dominant position in the system. Everyone strives upwards; all fight for the right of personal domination. Nobody wants to be on the margin or "behind" in this race. Everyone lives by the principle of "push and displace, so as not to get pushed out and displaced by others", which creates a particular kind of tension in the existence within the hierarchy. Each pulls the privileges to himself or herself, every person tries to choose a better part (and especially when the resources are rationed). Nobody wants to get passed by when "the cake is served" and deprived of the benefits and privileges. Nobody wants to be pushed away from the "feeding trough", ousted from the dominant positions – thrown off the pedestal, removed from office, unrooted from an established place, reduced in rank, forced into subservient roles, that have their own hierarchies.

    Beta Quadra fears that there won't be enough "sweet cake" for all, and those expelled to the lower levels will get a "stick" instead of "cake" – punishment instead of encouragement. In the lower layers of the hierarchy people don't survive – especially the sensitive and soulful individuals, for whom words "honor" and "dignity" are not merely abstract notions, nor "empty words". Being forced to the bottom of the hierarchy means saying goodbye to one's dream and one's soul: the soul will be ruined, the dream will be spit on.

    Beta Quadra is afraid of:
    - having to part with their honor and dignity, a privileged position in society;
    - being plunged into poverty, to a position without rights, being lowered in rank;
    - being forced out of the privileged strata and thrown to the bottom of society;
    - being demoted, deprived of rank, title, privileges and powers;
    - humiliating reprisals and punishments;
    - dependency on someone else's evil will;
    - uncertainty concerning own social status and position, slander, libel, false accusations;
    - afraid of collusions and conspiracies behind his back, of rumors, gossip, backstabbing, intrigues and betrayal;
    - afraid of all that would obstruct him from surviving and restoring own social status under extreme circumstances.

    Beta Quadra doesn't tolerate attacks on their social standing, on their rank, position, rights and privileges: they don't tolerate when their rights and rank advantages are being challenged, they don't tolerate familiarity in attitudes of others, in jest or serious, and can't stand ridicule that could create false impression of their inability to fend for themselves.

    In early stages of civilization, the era of the second quadra – is an era of fierce and all overwhelming physical power that is maximally respected, – it is an era that lays down the foundations for a reliable and strong statehood and further consolidates and effectively develops it, creating authoritarian and theocratic states, mighty empires, and mega-civilizations.
    If Gamma Quadra is left without a task, project, or work, without a way to apply their forces and strengths, without constructive goals, objectives, and plans, they start feeling themselves to be prisoners of circumstances, as hostages to aimless and meaningless existence. (As is often the case with forced unemployment during economic crises, or women forced to be housewives under complex social and economic conditions, in difficult or adverse intertype or interpersonal relations: "I'm glad to do work, but my husband doesn't let me!" (or when the woman doesn't get hired).)

    There is nothing more dangerous and scary for another person (particularly a conflictor) than to put Gamma Quadra types in conditions of involuntary unemployment and at the same time accuse them of being inadequate and insolvent, call them idlers and losers, blame them for failing to constructively apply themselves. For these kind of offense Gamma Quadra feel themselves in full right to spontaneously avenge themselves and make short work out of their abuser. Gamma Quadra types (especially, sensing ones, SEE and ESI) immediately lose control over themselves and will undertake anything to destroy their tormentor both morally and physically. (Such abuse Gamma types won't forgive to anyone!) Gamma Quadra will put to use all of their resources, all the materials at hand (up to sharp or cutting objects), but won't let the offender get away unpunished. The desire to put one's fists to use and beat the tormentor to death (or even tear him apart with bare hands) in such moments is overwhelming, thus the attack may be very brutal and fast.
    Last edited by Hope; 04-28-2018 at 03:34 PM.

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    I can relate to pieces of that chunk of Delta text. Also the first part of the first paragraph of Gamma. Is there one for Alpha so I can compare too?

    I think my biggest insecurity is related to my doubts in my own talents, ideas, and successes. The biggest part of what caused my envy when I was younger was seeing people much like me, end up with greater progress under their belt toward similar goals and ideals. I was kind of an insecure attention seeker at times, and I always felt this smug sense of satisfaction when my work in particular was praised. I wanted to be seen as capable, and respectable to others, and somebody interesting with the talent to show for it. I loved that respect I got from other people, and that sense of superiority for my efforts/talents and what I liked to do.

    I still do feel that rush of satisfaction now, but I feel much more secure in myself. I enjoy inspiring people who look up to me, and I enjoy giving them advice to better themselves in the fields they admire me in. I've since channeled that energy into helping motivate people on their personal projects and helping to perfect their strengths. To me it's another way of preventing more people from wallowing in their own jealous feelings; ensuring they stay inspired and happy with themselves and their progress.
    Last edited by Starvish; 04-26-2018 at 09:28 PM.

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    Certainly, Strati had observed some things. And she had equated these observations to the Delta quadra, according to the interpretation of the Socionics theory.

    But what are the rationale behind equating these observations to the Delta quadra? Why are those things considered to be Delta Fi, etc? If you say that it's because she had observed the Delta types, then that's just circular reasoning.

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    all reasoning is circular in the final analysis, life is about choosing between which circles to adopt as a matter of personal style. even no choice or bad faith choices are choices and present a style. its how humans evaluate eachother

    naturam expellas furca, tamen usque recurret

    as the communists so painfully learned

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    We say that certain values or beliefs are "liberal values". But we do not say that whatever a liberal does, is therefore "a liberal thing". How a liberal eats his food is not a liberal way of eating. A liberal can also, adopt what is known as conservative values.

    Socionics makes confusion over what is innate and what is non-innate. It makes these confusions, because it says that the entirety of a person as a whole is innate, and ignores the entire environmental influences that occur outside of the individual human psychology. This is the error of the doctrine of psychologism.

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    Spiritual Advisor Hope's Avatar
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    Here @Mio Q ALPHA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal View Post
    Here @Mio Q ALPHA
    Thanks! Hmm... I can relate to parts of it too, but some of it doesn't suit me as much... sounded more like acquaintances I know. Delta seemed the most relatable, still, with the fears being notable.

    I should probably shut up about myself and what I connect with lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mio Q View Post
    I should probably shut up about myself and what I connect with lol.
    Naw, I've been doing the same for 4 months already. You'll get used to it.
    “I want the following word: splendor, splendor is fruit in all its succulence, fruit without sadness. I want vast distances. My savage intuition of myself.”
    Clarice Lispector

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    Envy is the other person's problem, but one may have to watch one's back a little more - just in case. Envy toward SLI is often associated with their technical and or physical prowess. However, I've noted that many SLIs seem to feel that others envy them so I've wondered if these perceptions could partially be related to the siege mentality that many seem to develop.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    the SLIs are onto something; I envy them

    I agree though it seems like they can develop a "seige mentality"--I never thought of it like that before but it seems to fit. maybe it only seems that way though, its hard to know what exactly they're thinking, but they seem to act as if something like that is a factor

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    So I'm curious, what is it that people envy you for? You have some special talent?

    I think most people envy something. It is a projection of unlived life. That way it has value, we can recognize our own potential. That's why it's important for the person to admit that he is envious and not trying to hide it behind fake pureness.

    Personally I don't understand the problem. So people envy you. If someone sometimes envy me, I take it as a compliment, and it makes me feel stronger. But maybe I haven't experienced enough envy from others, like you have. But you can always seek the company of like minded people, who have the same talents as you.

    But what exactly was this about?
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Spiritual Advisor Hope's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Envy is the other person's problem, but one may have to watch one's back a little more - just in case. Envy toward SLI is often associated with their technical and or physical prowess. However, I've noted that many SLIs seem to feel that others envy them so I've wondered if these perceptions could partially be related to the siege mentality that many seem to develop.

    a.k.a. I/O
    Well, the Clipped Wings article talks a lot about envy, you should check it, I don't think is something imaginary in delta. Both ppl I'm talking about are deltas.

    I posted this above too..." no, its not my imagination because other ppl (friends and family) had noticed it too and told me, and the envious persons said it themselves".

    And finally, if it happens that SLIs think that often, maybe its because we get more uncomfortable about it due Si, Fe PoLR and SLI clipped wings strategy, while other ppl just ignores it, or worst, take some pride in it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal View Post
    Well, the Clipped Wings article talks a lot about envy, you should check it, I don't think is something imaginary in delta. Both ppl I'm talking about are deltas.

    I posted this above too..." no, its not my imagination because other ppl (friends and family) had noticed it too and told me, and the envious persons said it themselves".

    And finally, if it happens that SLIs think that often, maybe its because we get more uncomfortable about it due Si, Fe PoLR and its clipped wings strategy, while other ppl just ignores it, or worst, take some pride in it.
    More than a few SLI's seem to take the position that 'inside their walls is the only place where their safety can be protected' so they may sometimes demonize those who get too close to their insecurities. One way to bolster their behaviour to themselves and to fortify the walls is to say that others envy their positions. I'm not inferring that this would apply to you but I've noted this attitude when I've mitigated their seeming frequent disputes....

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    More than a few SLI's seem to take the position that 'inside their walls is the only place where their safety can be protected' so they may sometimes demonize those who get too close to their insecurities.One way to bolster their behaviour to themselves and to fortify the walls is to say that others envy their positions. I'm not inferring that this would apply to you but I've noted this attitude when I've mitigated their seeming frequent disputes....

    a.k.a. I/O


    There are walls but are not mine. Then, talking to Y while still thinking in the fight you had with X and judging the matter since that pov ñhaving 0 information at all (in fact), justifying it as socionics seems more likely an omnipotence defense mechanism.
    Last edited by Hope; 04-28-2018 at 03:36 PM.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal View Post
    @Tallmo

    "To me envy is basically one person being unable to be happy for you, they are basically thinking in themselves all the time and its a covert way to hate, they disguise it as admiration or friendship.
    Yes it is about themselves because it is a projection. I see envy as a fact. It just happens. Then the envious person has to suffer thought it and realize that the problem is in himself and that he has to take on more challenges to achieve things.

    But for you the challenge would be: Why does it bother you so much? Can't you just concentrate on your own stuff. Doesn't need an answer, just something to meditate about.

    But it would still be nice to know what your talent is.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Personally I don't understand the problem. So people envy you. If someone sometimes envy me, I take it as a compliment, and it makes me feel stronger.
    I think there is a honeymoon phase to this too, from my experience; there is definitely that satisfaction in being praised and looked up to. If this admiration continues to infringe upon your interest, it could easily become annoying. I already do not know how to respond when somebody else praises me while devaluing their own skills. I feel proud of myself, but awkward at the same time. I'd imagine extensive envy would make situations a lot more awkward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal View Post


    There are walls but are not mine. Then, talking to Y while still thinking in the fight you had with X and judging the matter since that pov without having 0 information at all (in fact), justifying it as socionics seems more likely an omnipotence defense mechanism.
    I'm not sure what you mean; however, I wonder if you're referring more to covetousness than envy. I've never met an Ip without some walls as I've never met an Ij who didn't retreat to an island -metaphorically speaking that is....

    a.k.a. I/O

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    I'm not sure about envy but I have noticed that something other bothers me. I don't know if it can be linked to the quadra complex but I dislike when someone tries to compete with me and to "beat" me in something(this type of behaviour can be related to envy). I end up feeling under pressure and stressed not because I think I am better than everyone else but because I usually just do my thing and don't mind other people's business. When someone tries to compete with me it's very uncomfortable and I no longer find pleasure in what I do just because it has turned into a contest.

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    yeah that sounds like an encounter with Se

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Yes it is about themselves because it is a projection. I see envy as a fact. It just happens. Then the envious person has to suffer thought it and realize that the problem is in himself and that he has to take on more challenges to achieve things.

    But for you the challenge would be: Why does it bother you so much? Can't you just concentrate on your own stuff. Doesn't need an answer, just something to meditate about.

    But it would still be nice to know what your talent is.
    People dont envy each other just for especial talents. When a person is envious is not just envious about something in especial, could be envious and competitive about the person (s) in general since its the primary way the envious relate to the world and others while having a twisted perception of reality. I think we often lose sight of the psychological perspective (the correct one) and start to focus in side facts as if "the person is talented or have something special like for deserving being envied", if the person is just "conceited", if is "paranoid" etc, etc. and we start missing the point.

    Then, there exist pathological envy, that is what @Mio Q suggested in his post, and I think could be in fact the problem of this person. Since its not just me the one who she 's envious about, obviously, she's even envious of her siblings.

    Then I was asking for advice in how to deal when those kind of ppl or situations appear, so I was focusing in me, not in solving her problem. Then, no, it doesnt bother me "so much", I coexisted with it for 20 years more or less while we were friends, then I decided the relation was too absurd to continue. But the mere fact of having haters stalkers and copicats is kinda obnoxious itself. I don't know how anyone would find it pleasurable.
    Last edited by Hope; 04-28-2018 at 03:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XII View Post
    I'm not sure about envy but I have noticed that something other bothers me. I don't know if it can be linked to the quadra complex but I dislike when someone tries to compete with me and to "beat" me in something(this type of behaviour can be related to envy). I end up feeling under pressure and stressed not because I think I am better than everyone else but because I usually just do my thing and don't mind other people's business. When someone tries to compete with me it's very uncomfortable and I no longer find pleasure in what I do just because it has turned into a contest.
    Exactly. Same here. worst if they are friends. Since they cant relate or identify with you as long as they envy you. Then they have to conceal they feels. And both start mistrusting each other.

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    I have a love-hate relationship with competition. It's good being praised when I actually deserve it. But when do I deserve it? (considering I struggle a lot with self-esteem and self-worth issues; In my eyes I am the lowest of the low).
    But too much ass-kissing makes me very self-conscious.

    This hurts to admit, but I hate losing or being looked down at. When that happens, I'll play the "Excuse" card ("If X wouldn't have happened, I could've done better") or, worse, the "Neglect everything" card ("It's not like I wanted X anyway, I was just getting into it for fun anyway heh...Totally not boiling inside.")
    “I want the following word: splendor, splendor is fruit in all its succulence, fruit without sadness. I want vast distances. My savage intuition of myself.”
    Clarice Lispector

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas View Post

    In my perspective, if I have something that they are envy about, I gave it to them, so they didn't need to be envy again at me.
    (too abstract, right?). But, yes, envy is not something that I personally believe that it can be disappear easily. Envy is not like want something that I didn't need, but want something that I will never be pleased with even if it will be fulfilled.
    I think the same. Envy is not about what others have and you dont, is a twisted perception of self and the world. I think its natural but it can turn pathological too.



    Actually envy is a natural reaction from humans. Even socionics itself not directly said about envy, but the Model A theory admit that all types has a some IMs which we valued in, but it's weaker than our leading function. So if we met someone whom having strong IMs which we valued in, then it can triggered our envy. The weaker our function compared to their stronger function, the bigger chance for us to be envy with it, because we valued it and not subdued it. That's why it might right too if you said ...
    True. Ppl tend to be more envious about what they care about the most, value or like.

    I don't know whether it works or not for you. But it works for me. So if I can give you advice,
    Do you have dual(s) in your life? I know that meet with our identicals and mirrors sometimes can trigger ourselves to be more and more, and it's good for us to be always develop ourselves in better way. Don't underestimate our identicals and mirrors, because they are types whom being given to have excellent understanding about us. But become better and better can leads to endless envy too, since what we are actually weak on is never get stronger, and meet with our identicals will just strengthen our strength stronger, faster, and better (be back later). That's what niffer teach to me about this life. (thanks niffer )

    So, yes, try to meet your dual, be honest about what are you envy on, and trust him/her/them to fulfill your envy in their way, not in your way.
    Well, not sure about what you are referring to in here. I'm not someone who envy others (or even pay so much attention or interest in others if I'm honest), I dont believe in envy as a way to solve anything. I see it more like pathological, and resulting from an twisted perception of oneself and the relation with primary environment, probably. Then my matter wasnt with identical or mirror, neither my dual. And yes, I've my dual, but the matter with the envious person started years before, since the person is a childhood friend. I dont know how it could be related to me having or not a dual, anyway. My dual arise something totally different in me, something far far away from envy Plus I'm not the envious part in the matter I repeat, neither an envious person I think. Maybe you got it wrong (or I didnt understand what you were trying to say).
    Anyway, this matter works in the inverse for STs especially SLI according Clipped Wings Article.

    " The position of "convinced mediocrity" - a person undemanding towards himself, but highly demanding of others - in Delta Quadra is most often taken on by SLI, Gabin...And in all of this (in the case when he runs into ambitious and stupid "fans", who obstinately and rudely impose foreign to him goals) he is helped by "the game of the fox and the grapes", by which he can also persistently and stubbornly defend his modest and moderate positions.

    Many members of Delta Quadra resort to such protective measures (moderation and caution) in regard to themselves - with the exception of LSE, Stierlitz, whose passions hobbies and ambitious creative plans, the pursuit of excellence, high quality of the work, and expansion of limits of the possible, are all paramount (+Te↑) and often constitute the purpose of his life. Although it is possible to "break" even him, distract him from ambitious goals, call him to "moderate his pride", to not stand out and not stick out from the crowd, so as to not bring up jealousy in others (arguments of EII, Dostoevsky)."


    Being envious about others appears more likely in NF types according the article (and ime). I already posted it above.

    "For Delta Quadra, especially intuitive types, it could be painful to witness the intellectual, spiritual, moral and professional superiority of others -... Envy towards the success of others - is one of the most widespread manifestations of the Delta Quadra complex of "clipped wings": the fewer personal successes, the more ambitions and the more jealousy is aimed at the successes of another (the feeling of personal loses needs to be compensated for somehow). "

    Because we are in same quadra, I will add something for you.
    (For other quadras whom looked at my post, I didn't guarantee if you misunderstood and then become worse because of this. So be careful).


    Being envy is not a bad things, but just keep our feet in ground. I can have envy when I had to dream something big in other's life, and you might can have envy when you had to realize something big happened in other's life. That's why God let our wings being clipped, so when we fall, we still in the ground because we aren't actually flying over the rainbow, or even over the grass.

    Can you wonder if our wings isn't being clipped? We can fly and get to see rainbow closer if we want. When in top we can see other beautiful creatures, and we started to envy at them, and it made us change direction, and then meet another beautiful creatures, envy again, change directions, and repeat again, and repeat again. It makes us seems good because we can fulfill our envy into real, but envy made us forgot about our own body. We will unconsciously hurt ourselves, and even our wings. And can you wonder what happened next?

    Suddenly our wings clipped when we are in the air due to accumulative fatigue, and all envy which we fulfill when we can fly to reach everywhere, will become a bitter experience, because we have no wings to save us from free fall.

    Parable ends


    I apologize if my post is irrelevant maybe. I can delete it if you want.
    Thank you. I apologize. ~

    I see envy as concealed hatred is literally thinking "I should be the one whos in such position, not him/her" and being unable to feel happy for others, its vanity and wish to set yourself over others and is not morally "good" in my perception. It goes against my religious beliefs too. But I know what are you trying to say, that ppl who envy others can be motivated to become better. However, I'm reluctant to think that something positive can be constructed from a rotten source, honestly. At least I've never seen it irl, like for believing it. What I've seen is that overly competitive ppl suffer, because they cant relate or identify with others since its hard for them to truly love (heartedly)others, since they can't see the other as a "brother". It was the sin of Cain, the first man who killed his own brother. I agree that I we still living in here and not anywhere else, so we should learn to deal with this stuff. Thats why the reason of my op, indeed.

    Thank you for the time Andreas and no, even if I dont agree with some parts is not irrelevant at all and there its nothing to apologize about.

    Last edited by Hope; 04-30-2018 at 02:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal View Post
    Well, the Clipped Wings article talks a lot about envy, you should check it, I don't think is something imaginary in delta. Both ppl I'm talking about are deltas.

    I posted this above too..." no, its not my imagination because other ppl (friends and family) had noticed it too and told me, and the envious persons said it themselves".

    And finally, if it happens that SLIs think that often, maybe its because we get more uncomfortable about it due Si, Fe PoLR and SLI clipped wings strategy, while other ppl just ignores it, or worst, take some pride in it.
    I was wondering if it is something that bothers you more than it bothers other people. An ESE for instance would delight in the fact, because they would take it as a confirmation of their abilities and achievements.

    At the moment i don't have much to have other people be envious of me haha but it has happened when i was much younger (i've actually had people say that they were envious of my ability to x, or my achievement of y) and it took me by surprise because i don't normally think in those terms. So in a way not thinking in those terms i don't notice envy much, but maybe you are more attuned to it?

    Nowadays i mostly run into competition. I've noticed this one strange thing with this one co-worker where i feel like she is pegging her own standards onto mine and trying to out-achieve me based on that. I do find it odd, because i feel like, shouldn't she have something of her own to aim for (i suspect she is LxE but i could be wrong on that). Either way, i don't think i'm dealing well with managing this since it seems like an encroachment of sorts, and it makes me feel transparent even though i doubt that is the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Feathers View Post
    But too much ass-kissing makes me very self-conscious.

    This hurts to admit, but I hate losing or being looked down at. When that happens, I'll play the "Excuse" card ("If X wouldn't have happened, I could've done better") or, worse, the "Neglect everything" card ("It's not like I wanted X anyway, I was just getting into it for fun anyway heh...Totally not boiling inside.")
    This is really applicable to a lot of people whether they'd like to admit it or not. I personally get like extra offended when somebody brings up how I felt then, since it's kinda tough for me to hide how I'm really feeling. The part about ass kissing is definitely something I notice people struggling with too; praise somebody too much and it can feel like a weight on them, pressuring them to keep up this praiseworthy image or whatever. Feels like walking on needles because you feel obligated to meet up to those expectations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal View Post

    "For Delta Quadra, especially intuitive types, it could be painful to witness the intellectual, spiritual, moral and professional superiority of others -... Envy towards the success of others - is one of the most widespread manifestations of the Delta Quadra complex of "clipped wings": the fewer personal successes, the more ambitions and the more jealousy is aimed at the successes of another
    This is another reason why I think I could be Delta NF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    I was wondering if it is something that bothers you more than it bothers other people. An ESE for instance would delight in the fact, because they would take it as a confirmation of their abilities and achievements.
    No, its nothing like me vs the world, so its not like I'm more sensitive/perceptive of it than others. I'm talking about just 2 ppl in my life, actually. My comment about SLIs that you quoted was because of Rebelondeck mentioning that he had noticed it in a lot of SLIs so its probably an imaginary perception. So if he's right that he has known SLIs that think or felt envied (which I doubt but whatevs), maybe its because of completely different reasons (explained or supported by Complex) rather than what he was saying, that we have walls, we imagine others being envious of us and we demonize others, which seems to me a baseless assumption without enough support. Or basically he being judgmental and generalizing and trying to show it as if it were socionics when its just and idea he had figured out.
    Last edited by Hope; 04-30-2018 at 02:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    nah what Strat is saying is Ti Se types often couch predictions/objections in terms of absolute tautologies like "you'll never get published with that title",
    Strong Ti users are usually smart enough to avoid absolute tautologies, because it only takes one piece of contrary evidence to disprove them. However, Ti-HAs (IEI and SEI) will impulsively fall into this trap. Both types can (from a Te perspective) be pedantic and miss the forest for the trees as a result of it.

    Socionics can provide you with a strategy to combat this behavior, if it annoys you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    and stuff to that effect. it has a wing clipping effect. delta is afraid of Ti in the sense of its rigid uncomprehending absolutism. contradictory in this context means contrary to whatever the delta is aiming at or aspiring to. the thing about critics is more about how some people always reserve the right to cut you down and give their assessment, whether requested or not, and without respect for how it might effect you because they can't appreciate the big picture hence ignorance, thus "self appointed" since it entails a stance that is not strictly speaking necessary, i.e.: its within their control, hence "self appointed"
    Unfortunately, Deltas can respond to a perceived slight by making Fi accusations about their detractor's character, which greatly exacerbates the problem. I hope you gain a bit of insight from this.

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    did I say strong Ti, no I said Ti Se types, of which there are four, all of which that applies to. Also I said often, not always

    and yes deltas can respond to a perceived slight by "making a Fi accusation" whatever that means, "unfortunately" seems to be a judgement of its own, however

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal View Post
    No, its nothing like me vs the world, so its not like I'm more sensitive/perceptive it more than others. I'm talking about just 2 ppl in my life, actually. My comment about SLIs that you quoted was because of Rebelondeck mentioning that he had noticed it in a lot of SLIs so its probably an imaginary perception. So if he's right that he has known SLIs that think or felt envied (which I doubt but whatevs), maybe its because of completely different reasons (explained or supported by Complex) rather than what he was saying, that we have walls, we imagine others being envious of us and we demonize others, which seems to me a baseless assumption without enough support. Or basically he being judgmental and generalizing and trying to show it as if it were socionics when its just and idea he had figured out.
    I understand. I didn't mean to imply that it's'you vs the world' . I meant that maybe you being SLI are more aware of it. Tbh i do notice some things too but i need to put a conscious effort: example, this competition thing with this coworker - i had to make a conscious effort to analyze the situation. Hope this clarifies things. Question for you: what do u think makes u react in this particular way to envy?

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    I think this is why it's important to make friends and try to interact as much as possible with people who are on equal ground and footing with you. If you are much stronger than a friend at X that they value, then at least they have to know that they have many strengths and abilities of worth to them and are capable people worthy of admiration and respect too for those things. Then you can be an inspiration to them (and them to you) using your own strengths without fear of having to step on their insecurities. Instead of one person becoming bitter and mutual resentment growing, you can both look up to one another. If you focus on directing yourself towards healthy relationships like this, over time you'll get yourself into situations like this less and less.

    Probably a lot of people do envy SLIs because they are "the master" and are able to get really good at what they set their minds to achieve and can do it while looking perfectly comfortable in their own skin and making it look effortless. I wouldn't be surprised if this was an issue that would come up for a lot of SLIs in their lives, especially for the girls because of these kinds of typical problems which come up between girls more too, and ST girls can stand out in a particular way which I can also understand.
    [Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.

    It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.

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