Rationality and Irrationality Throughout the Socion

[Pallas]

The other day, there was an argument about the appearance of P-ness for SLEs. I said that SLEs can't be very scattered if Se is willpower, but then I realized, yes, SLEs do have a large degree of P-ness. What does P-ness look like in different sociotypes? Even the v J J-types like LSI have a small degree of P-ness. Do types like other types' P-ness more if it's their dual? And do the types' P-nesses somehow work with each other in duality, or do they dualize with the other type's J-ness? Rationality and irrationality: How do they work? Or is every type just unique, and we should forget about how P-ness and J-ness work together to create duality?

[Sol]

Even the J-types like LSI have a small degree of P-ness.

it's people have the balance of dichotomy traits
the ideal case whould be the equality

[Pallas]

it's people have the balance of dichotomy traits
the ideal case whould be the equality

I shouldn’t expect Russians to get the joke.

[Sol]

I shouldn’t expect Russians to get the joke.

Russians have better taste in jokes. And adopted that the most idiocy about types here is written seriously.
I'm glad that in this time you only joked.

[Number 9 large]

Stop saying P-ness its vulgar

[Pallas]

Stop saying P-ness its vulgar

but v J J is OK right?

[Number 9 large]

but v J J is OK right?

J J is life.

Tbh i didnt read everything when i posted that comment.

I just saw P-ness.

So vulgar.

[Sol]

but v J J is OK right?

is mistyping

[Rebelondeck]

These two terms are very misleading. From a systems perspective, it's better to think of p-types as input-oriented rather than as irrationals and j-types as output-oriented. In order to properly define function, one must devise actual system structures that would produce the information classifications; it would be very myopic to assume that the observations, in whatever matrix one could propose, could be directly used to define function - or so-called rationality.

a.k.a. I/O

[Bertrand]

I think that's somewhat true, but it depends on what you mean by oriented and from what perspective. rational creative/demonstrative come across as output oriented in a certain sense, being that they work to develop rational "products"in some sense, such that judged from their product they seem output oriented. I believe I understand what you mean though, which is something like "input oriented"conforms whatever follows to the raw input, whereas "output oriented" aims to conform the input to a central structure, which means that which does not conform to it gets excluded. this has the effect of judging the perception in light of the result it would have on the "output" which is its effect on the structure. correct me if I'm wrong here, but that's how I view what you're saying

[Pallas]

J J is life.

But it's not J J. It's v J J.

[Sanguine Miasma]

P-ness is much stiffer in rationals and in irrationals P-ness is just in free flowing state.

Think their mentality like this:
J: tights, P: boxers

[Number 9 large]

These two terms are very misleading. From a systems perspective, it's better to think of p-types as input-oriented rather than as irrationals and j-types as output-oriented. In order to properly define function, one must devise actual system structures that would produce the information classifications; it would be very myopic to assume that the observations, in whatever matrix one could propose, could be directly used to define function - or so-called rationality.

a.k.a. I/O

yea makes more sense. irrational sounds illogical which isnt true

[wasp]

this is one of those socionics topics I've been waiting to find quality discussions for. @Rebelondeck could you possibly go into the differences between how p-types and j-types might conduct themselves in relationships? I don't mean casual relationships, but closer relationships, maybe even specifically romantic relationships, since I feel like it has to be more nuanced than what I've read, and how would subtype further influence those j-p differences?

[Rebelondeck]

............depends on what you mean by oriented and from what perspective..........

Input-oriented refers to input processes dominating one's psyche; by input I mean information gathering as opposed to information producing, which is output. The information control system of input-oriented personalities are steered by their data acquisition processes so rationalization to produce output is a secondary slaved-process.
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tterns-by-I-O?
There's no rocket science here....

a.k.a I/O

[Rebelondeck]

this is one of those socionics topics I've been waiting to find quality discussions for. @Rebelondeck could you possibly go into the differences between how p-types and j-types might conduct themselves in relationships? I don't mean casual relationships, but closer relationships, maybe even specifically romantic relationships, since I feel like it has to be more nuanced than what I've read, and how would subtype further influence those j-p differences?

That would take an entire article and a lot of thought, for which I doubt that I have the motivation. Generally, I've found that libido trumps everything but:
Ep-types tend toward hedonism - experience first and all the thinking is toward maximizing the experience.....
Ej-types tend toward engaging others - to achieve connectivity and a meeting of the minds......
Ip-types tend toward cautious ad hoc testing of the water - like a competition but when the coast is clear, they pull out all the stops to engage...
Ij-types tend toward fantasy first and then foreplay - to test if someone meets preconceived ideals or standards........
a.k.a. I/O

[Aylen]

Va-J-na

Show us your P-ness.

[Bertrand]

Input-oriented refers to input processes dominating one's psyche; by input I mean information gathering as opposed to information producing, which is output. The information control system of input-oriented personalities are steered by their data acquisition processes so rationalization to produce output is a secondary slaved-process.
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tterns-by-I-O?
There's no rocket science here....

a.k.a I/O

that makes sense, I just wasnt up on your technical terminology and I know if people brought to it a common usage sensibility it might not make sense. so its good to get some clarity. I also think DarkAngelFireWolf69 sort of diverges from this when he makes the demonstrative the creative, because he captures the idea that being p base doesn't necessarily mean your information producing capacity is of a lower rank than being r base. I think thats probably something you understand implicitly but something that is commonly misunderstood, and in order to intuitively defend against that implication people tend to resist the notion of p's being "input" oriented. its a projection to say that must mean their output is of a lower rank, but its an avoidable one. this is essentially why I think its slightly misleading to describe rationality/irrationality in terms of input/output to begin with because it leads to this kind of misunderstanding that doesn't go to the heart of the phenomenology of rationality/irrationality, but rather interprets it through a model, which is socionics, but socionics could do better at cleaving to the phenomenology, because if people don't understand that underlying strata at the perceptual level the model loses a lot of its luster. in other words thinking of irrationality/rationality as a kind of circuit is a really Ti base interpretation of the world, that is going to have serious shortcomings in reaching people if their goal is to understand what (base) irrational/rational states are really like

[Pookie]

P = The degree of variance and ease of transition with mood.

[Pallas]

P = The degree of variance and ease of transition with mood.

Sounds like something requiring therapy

[Rebelondeck]

that makes sense, I just wasnt up on your technical terminology and I know if people brought to it a common usage sensibility it might not make sense. so its good to get some clarity. I also think DarkAngelFireWolf69 sort of diverges from this when he makes the demonstrative the creative, because he captures the idea that being p base doesn't necessarily mean your information producing capacity is of a lower rank than being r base. I think thats probably something you understand implicitly but something that is commonly misunderstood, and in order to intuitively defend against that implication people tend to resist the notion of p's being "input" oriented. its a projection to say that must mean their output is of a lower rank, but its an avoidable one. this is essentially why I think its slightly misleading to describe rationality/irrationality in terms of input/output to begin with because it leads to this kind of misunderstanding that doesn't go to the heart of the phenomenology of rationality/irrationality, but rather interprets it through a model, which is socionics, but socionics could do better at cleaving to the phenomenology, because if people don't understand that underlying strata at the perceptual level the model loses a lot of its luster. in other words thinking of irrationality/rationality as a kind of circuit is a really Ti base interpretation of the world, that is going to have serious shortcomings in reaching people if their goal is to understand what (base) irrational/rational states are really like

Because one process is slaved to another, this doesn't imply that it's under utilized; indeed, it may be used more than the controlling process. The deputy director could do far more work than the director but everyone knows who's in charge.......

a.k.a. I/O

[Pookie]

Sounds like something requiring therapy

So does the opposite.

Why snippy?

[Pallas]

So does the opposite.

Why snippy?

I didn't know emotional stability tended to require therapy. Maybe holding grudges or something would require therapy though.

[Skepsis]

MEME2018-04-19-06-40-04.jpg

[Spermatozoa]

P-ness is much stiffer in rationals and in irrationals P-ness is just in free flowing state.

Think their mentality like this:
J: tights, P: boxers

And Rational pussies provide a tighter grip.