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Thread: MBTI Bus: Comparing MBTI and humanitarian socionics vision of types. J/P problem

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    Default MBTI Bus: Comparing MBTI and humanitarian socionics vision of types. J/P problem

    Hello All,

    There is english subtitled video from one of the DarkAngelFireWolf69's class. Discussing the difference between MBTI and SHS vision of types using popular image with types sitting in the bus. A good example of how all 16 types (socion) can be breifly described in short video.



    The video revealed a fundamental question about J/P problem (J/P switch) between MBTI and socionics. And i have a question for you who does MBTI: when you type your friend or somebody and clearly see that he/she is introvert and lets say judging i.e. structured, follows the plans etc... how you explain that his/her code would be I..P not I..J ? It just seems not logical for me...

    NB: 4-letters codes in the video should be read as Jungian types (no J/P switch) so assume all j/p are in lowercase.

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    Bertrand's Avatar
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    yeah MBTI is just super inconsistent. on one hand they seem to mix up Se with J (as is the case with INxx), and on the other (ISxx) they do it backwards, with the less volitional type being a "J". honestly MBTI is a mess. I would just propose socionics as an entirely different system rather than try to link it to MBTI. if you must link the two, the concept of J and P being linked to rationality or irrationality, and rationality being defined as when rational function is base it dominates perception, whereas when perceiving is base it dominates rationality. this of course is subject to compensations which give rise to instances of "exceptional" behavior. but in essence rationality is putting the perception of the world into a box, defined by rational considerations, and perceptions outside that box are generally excluded as "fantasy" or "not real." whereas the opposite is true for P types, rational constructions that contradict unfiltered perception are considered "artificial" or "not real." the problem is that people have to understand first hand what it means to experience unfiltered perception versus subordinating perception to judgements. when any given person says "I just can't believe it" it could flow from either irrational or rational factors, i.e.: people of either type could utter the statement and they would each be rejecting whatever it is based on their own personal criteria. the bottom line is you look to how a person lives, which is to say if they change plans, are more open to questioning in general, are anti authoritarian, less organized, etc: these all point to, but don't prove, irrationality. very few people have a rational commitment to irrational behavioral patterns so complete that the cracks don't being to show over a long enough period, but anyone can claim anything about themselves. the bottom line is type is not something that is resolved over a quick period except when judged by complete experts. for any novice to self type, despite comprehensive self knowledge, still requires good knowledge of the system for it to correspond correctly to the system, this requires perhaps even more time than it takes to ascertain someone's type if you already fully understand the system (which few people do, and I don't except myself from this). thus I think the solution is just to accept that typing is a long process that most people won't ever get right because they don't care enough to really figure it out

    the fundamental problem is knowing what it means for "rational function to dominate the perceptual one" and vice versa. people need to focus on grasping this because I think its the crux of the issue. the j/p switch is bound to be confusing for anyone who can't sort that out first, because they don't really know what its referring to or what its trying to get at. thus just explaining j/p is not helpful without recourse to and understanding of what is rational and what is irrational and how one can dominate the other. its precisely this issue that people don't really understand because they assume whatever they are is just how everyone is. they don't realize a distinction with significant difference is there, and it plays out across the population (although this itself is type related, some types are more likely to naturally grasp this concept, although they may not call it rationality/irrationality)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    people of either type could utter the statement and they would each be rejecting whatever it is based on their own personal criteria. the bottom line is you look to how a person lives, which is to say if they change plans, are more open to questioning in general, are anti authoritarian, less organized, etc: these all point to, but don't prove, irrationality
    100% agree! in HS we think the same, that what people do is much much more important then what they say.

    BTW all people have one function as "information powered" and another "energy powered" for example ISTj (Inspector) has dominant (most powerful) function L (Ti) and least powerful P (Te) so he always control that everybody behave in productive way, use things right, knows how everything should be organized (P, Te) it is "on words" in the reality he does not do it by himself, it is hard for him to start to act and continue acting for long time. So "on words" (informational wise) Inspector knows how to earn money but in the reality (energy wise) he does not have so much power as Administrator and Enterpriser have (their dominant func is P)

    It is like difference between IQ and EQ. SH believes that EQ is more important !

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    are you saying Te is "information powered" by Ti, which is "high energy", so our base function is highest energy and it handles its opposing attitude (ignoring/controlling function) via "information"?

    how does that work with auxiliary function?

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    I don't want to go deep in model G (that we use in HS) but briefly for Inspector: 1st function (called manager) is Ti, his 8th function is Te (called control) 1st func is always energy powerful so person just acts by it but informationally weak (acts silently) any vise versa with 8th func which is informationally powerful we can talk a lot and we know a lot but there is always not enough energy to start to act by it.
    People who managed to balance these two func are exceptional and can succeed a lot in the life (Mask, Angela Merkel etc..)

    if you interested in SHS approach here is my article in Russian
    https://goo.gl/uwTYfb

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal View Post
    Fi types can be so prideful and ethical so resentful sometimes, smh.
    They are, definitely !

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    About your question, I don't do the switch because as you well said, it doesnt makes sense. I've dropped almost completely mbti, however. If you know the types or have enough experience with socionics theory and its application (itrs, etc), you can notice where a person belongs to in socionics. Mbti tests types ppl according basic jungian dichotomies (4 letters) I/E, N/S, T/F, P/J.

    Anyway, the answer is no, I dont use the switch, because its a poor and ilogical solution to try to fit both systems, I usually consider functions in mbti as different from socionics and jung theory, and that mbti is a poor attempt of typology in comparison to socionics, however the standarized test as way of typing according dichotomies is useful imo.

    And no, P types cant turn into j according dichotomies. Basically, just new forumites continue believing the j/p switch cause they read the section of Archive. But its good to consider there are mixed types in mbti types, I mean, there are some XXXjs and XXXps mixed together in a single type in mbti, especially since some of them type themselves according "functions" in there. To be fair, I dont think socionics has a good consensus over functions definitions either (especially not in this place), but theory itself is tons better and has much more sense. Function are simply mixed up and wrong in mbti, they dont correspond to socionics function descriptions.



    As Bert said better try both as different system instead of doing switch. Find the way and use the resources you find useful to type ppl. Thats what most socionists do anyway.

    The easiest way to determine j or p is looking at the life habits or routine of each person imo.
    Last edited by Kiba; 04-19-2018 at 03:07 AM.

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    ^ @Crystal, what differentiates j and p users?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    ^ @Crystal, what differentiates j and p users?
    Typical Characteristics
    Rationals
    Tend to plan ahead, make decisions early
    Are more often rigid and stubborn
    Do not like to change their decisions
    Tend to finish what they started.
    Usually have stiff movements.
    Usually more 'authoritarian' leadership style.
    Low stress tolerance.

    Irrationals
    Tend to wait and see, more spontaneous.
    Are more often flexible and tolerant.
    Change their decisions frequently.
    Tend to start new things without finishing them.
    Usually have gentle movements.
    Usually more 'democratic' leadership style.
    High stress tolerance.

    Rationality in socionics is a perceptual quality defined by a focus on actions and emotions. In contrast, Irrationality means a focus on states of mind and body.

    Frecuently I need to know the person habits and determine it from several aspects of his/her life but the common basis is looking for order, which is rationality (home, room, action, work, routine, outfit, relations etc).

    As the text says, its a response to focus, if the person values more his/her mood and state over everything else you could consider him/her a p type. P and J goes directly related to elements: Logic (Tx) and ethics (Fx) are rational, Sensing(Sx) and Intuition (Nx) is irrational.

    A practical example, according Strat and ime, j types seek for rationality in relations (of any kind), which means a preset or established way of contacting and behavior (frequency). In this sense, rational types find hard to deal in relations with p types, since p types act irrationally and they expect rational reciprocity. A case at hand is the activity relation, where j/p struggles. The rational type will seek for a rational behavior form the partner but wont find it, so s/he will be confused and could consider the other as unreliable, unpredictable, avoidant, elusive, selfish (for considering him/herself over the agreement), etc, where the p type could consider the j, inconsiderate (for considering the agreement over personal state), pushy, persecutor, stiff, asphyxiating, boring etc.
    Last edited by Kiba; 04-18-2018 at 02:40 PM.

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    What if they were on a prison bus?
    good bye

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    I hate it when people repeat the same ritual over and over when meeting someone thye've known long term. i feel like thats the kind of formality you extend to people you don't know yet,so when you apply it to people you've known for like 10 years, or say your family, there's a weird autistic quality to it, where its like you're always meeting for the first time. its like look, can you just relax and do whatever, no need to ease me into this with your creepy ritual. the opposite side of this is they think its what family means is some manner of predictability and I guess im being disrespectful for messing with the formula and generally being unpredictable, because you know, I might say what I'm actually feeling at any given moment if asked, you know, honest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dmytro Medvedev View Post
    I don't want to go deep in model G (that we use in HS) but briefly for Inspector: 1st function (called manager) is Ti, his 8th function is Te (called control) 1st func is always energy powerful so person just acts by it but informationally weak (acts silently) any vise versa with 8th func which is informationally powerful we can talk a lot and we know a lot but there is always not enough energy to start to act by it.
    People who managed to balance these two func are exceptional and can succeed a lot in the life (Mask, Angela Merkel etc..)

    if you interested in SHS approach here is my article in Russian
    https://goo.gl/uwTYfb
    Which functions in general are supposed to be high energy vs low energy and high info vs low info in Model G?

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    Also, just to let you know there's not a lot of MBTI discussion on this forum, most people would be more interested in Model G.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dmytro Medvedev View Post
    And i have a question for you who does MBTI: when you type your friend or somebody and clearly see that he/she is introvert and lets say judging i.e. structured, follows the plans etc... how you explain that his/her code would be I..P not I..J ? It just seems not logical for me...
    Typing friends by J/P and characteristics like "structured, organized, follows plans" is a misconception that comes from unipolar thinking. Every type consists of both P functions and J functions. Thus every type is J & P simultaneously. There is no such thing as a separate J-type or a separate P-type. Once you realize this and abandon trying to type friends as Js or Ps typing will be much less confusing.

    There is also the question of Reinin dichotomies and other type traits: does one plan being a "j"-type? because they are Reinin "strategic"? because they are intuitive? or sensing? to try to protect their polr? were they raised and taught to plan by their parents and school? It's almost impossible to type anyone using such broad characteristics.

    In relation to J/P switch, the polls done at Personality Cafe showed that 65% of introverts switch MBTI J/P when typing in socionics: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...nversion-Polls
    so j/p switch is not a myth, but it affects introverts only. 85+% of extraverts came into socionics keeping exactly same 4 letters.

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    @Bertrand more than rituals I think its an emphasis in obligations, controlled outcomes and expectations (thats what low stress tolerance from above means I guess) over spontaneity and individuality and personal well being (thats why p doesn't feel stressed by the requirements of the environment). In this sense, j and p types expect different things from each other.

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    yeah you're right, the more I think about it there might be a kind of warm homey quality to some greetings because they associate positive memories to them and bring up positive sensations... but I grew up in a shit home, so it didn't immediately spring to mind. in that sense I'm like out with the old in with the new

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Which functions in general are supposed to be high energy vs low energy and high info vs low info in Model G?
    it is 1st and 8th functions
    1st - hi energy, low info
    8th - hi info, low energy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dmytro Medvedev View Post
    it is 1st and 8th functions
    1st - hi energy, low info
    8th - hi info, low energy
    Why on earth would the first function be low info? Also isn't it a dichotomy, so there should be four high energy functions? etc.

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    Grazie for sharing the video!

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    MBTI seems to take a third-person perspective, which can present some conflicting observations because much of what we see is limited to externalized behaviour; however, this display is what most people have to work with when dealing with a particular type. Socionics seems to fail at presenting how internally controlled processes could be perceived by an independent observer so I question certain aspects of Socionics ITR because these perceptions, which may be fundamentally flawed, play much bigger roles.

    a.k.a. I/O

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