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Thread: How Socionics can uncover the truth of the fabric of reality

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    Exclamation How Socionics can uncover the truth of the fabric of reality

    I think that Socionics is a revolutionary theory which will help us uncover the very truth about the very existence of reality itself. This may sound ambitious, but how can it not be? You would only need to look to see how many things can be applied and analyzed in terms of Socionics.

    For example, even by analyzing this very sentence that I'm writing, you could probably see that they are of certain functions, and therefore, PROVE that I am of a certain type, and hence it would validate the overall correctness of the Socionics theory. This means that I AM of a certain type, because I HAVE TO be. There can be nothing else.

    I think that to be able to prove the correctness and the truthiness of the Socionics theory, we must take the theory seriously, for that it is very real indeed. It is a REAL phenonemon that we're describing.

    For instance, you would only need to LOOK, to see that there are confirmations of the theory everywhere, whether it be your own thoughts and emotions, to human interations, to personalities, to sociological and historical phenomena, to see that the THEORY often fits the REALITY of the situation, by APPLYING the functions or types or quadras etc., to those situations. These are the proofs and confirmations, of the overall correctness of the Socionics theory, because they are DESCRIBING the reality that we are observing. We MUST take the theory seriously, because these phenomenons are real, and that they exist.

    Thank you.

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    you're just mad cause socionics encroaches on your territory

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    It seems you believe that Socionics is in no way verifiable; that anyone who engages in it must be stupid, mad, or deluded. You are are starting to sound like a crackpot (well, actually, you've been sounding like this for days now). What are you trying to accomplish?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavos View Post
    It seems you believe that Socionics is in no way verifiable; that anyone who engages in it must be stupid, mad, or deluded. You are are starting to sound like a crackpot (well, actually, you've been sounding like this for days now). What are you trying to accomplish?
    He's trying to be Socionics Colbert and it's not working

    Or he escaped the nuthouse and really believes it like he did for 9 years

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    LOL, I love how Singu is obsessed with us.
    good bye

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavos View Post
    It seems you believe that Socionics is in no way verifiable; that anyone who engages in it must be stupid, mad, or deluded. You are are starting to sound like a crackpot (well, actually, you've been sounding like this for days now). What are you trying to accomplish?
    Well actually my point is... nothing is verifiable, and that justificationism is wrong. If you take justificationism seriously, then you will reach this conclusion.

    So if you approach Socionics from the point of justificationism, then you'd be wrong.

    And really, do you really believe that people who discuss esoteric subjects like Socionics and astrology on some corner of the internet, are not crackpots? Do you really go around to people saying, "Hey I'm a Te valuer, therefore I must be more factual than you", etc? I don't mean to offend, but I must point out certain ironies of the situation.

    I'm actually kind of surprised that some people were offended by the OP, but ok.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Well actually my point is... nothing is verifiable, and that justificationism is wrong. If you take justificationism seriously, then you will reach this conclusion.

    So if you approach Socionics from the point of justificationism, then you'd be wrong.

    And really, do you really believe that people who discuss esoteric subjects like Socionics and astrology on some corner of the internet, are not crackpots? Do you really go around to people saying, "Hey I'm a Te valuer, therefore I must be more factual than you", etc? I don't mean to offend, but I must point out certain ironies of the situation.

    I'm actually kind of surprised that some people were offended by the OP, but ok.
    What do you want? xd

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    And really, do you really believe that people who discuss esoteric subjects like Socionics and astrology on some corner of the internet, are not crackpots?
    Yes. I see astrology stuff whenever I go to basically any store ever and socionics is like MBTI in Slavic countries even if it's not as common in Western countries (yet, but EJArendee's going to take care of that for us, thank God.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pallas Athena View Post
    Yes. I see astrology stuff whenever I go to basically any store ever and socionics is like MBTI in Slavic countries even if it's not as common in Western countries (yet, but EJArendee's going to take care of that for us, thank God.)
    Then I'm pretty sure you'll have fun talking about how you're a "Fe valuer" or "Te valuer" or whatever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Then I'm pretty sure you'll have fun talking about how you're a "Fe valuer" or "Te valuer" or whatever.
    I've had all sorts of people tell me their MBTI types, enneagram types, star signs, and other people's suspected MBTI types and enneagram types and star signs and other good stuff without me having to say anything. Sometimes, I've joined in. GASP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Well actually my point is... nothing is verifiable, and that justificationism is wrong. If you take justificationism seriously, then you will reach this conclusion.

    So if you approach Socionics from the point of justificationism, then you'd be wrong.

    And really, do you really believe that people who discuss esoteric subjects like Socionics and astrology on some corner of the internet, are not crackpots? Do you really go around to people saying, "Hey I'm a Te valuer, therefore I must be more factual than you", etc? I don't mean to offend, but I must point out certain ironies of the situation.

    I'm actually kind of surprised that some people were offended by the OP, but ok.
    I hope you don't think I'm deprecating crackpottery. Long live crackpottery. But yours seems to be an obsession... you seem hellbent on demeaning socionics (as of late), and I would like to know your motivation. What I would like to know is why you're doing this. You think the theory is wrong? You don't agree with what you have experienced with ITRs? Or...?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavos View Post
    I hope you don't think I'm deprecating crackpottery. Long live crackpottery. But yours seems to be an obsession... you seem hellbent on demeaning socionics (as of late), and I would like to know your motivation. What I would like to know is why you're doing this. You think the theory is wrong? You don't agree with what you have experienced with ITRs? Or...?
    I think he got the socionics that transhumanists at Google are using confused with Aushra's socionics, which are actually different things with the same name, and is wondering how we're going to upload people's minds into robots now. I didn't come here to upload my mind into a robot, but if it's really possible, that would be kind of cool. But socionics is just Slav/hipster MBTI. That's all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavos View Post
    I hope you don't think I'm deprecating crackpottery. Long live crackpottery. But yours seems to be an obsession... you seem hellbent on demeaning socionics (as of late), and I would like to know your motivation. What I would like to know is why you're doing this. You think the theory is wrong? You don't agree with what you have experienced with ITRs? Or...?
    Well I don't think getting at people's motivations is a good idea, since you can just cut to the chase and say, "That's wrong. Here's why" instead. I probably shouldn't have demeaned or made fun of it, and for that I apologize. But as for my motivation, well there are many motivations, obviously, but the main idea is that I think that Socionics is totally, completely and absolutely wrong, and I can explain why.

    1. is the problem of induction. You do not make a theory out of observations and making generalizations. You don't observe something, then you make a theory out of it. That's inductivism, and that's not how science works. Rather the way science works, is through explanations, through deductions.

    Here's a basic definition of science, from Wiki:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    Science (from Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge") is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe.
    I happened to have randomly stumbled upon a video (transcript) of Noam Chomsky, and I happen to agree with what he had to say:

    Non-science starts with just collecting data and trying to make inductive generalizations from it, and it gets absolutely nowhere. You just can't do it.

    It's been understood, one of the parts of the modern scientific revolution, so-called Galilean revolution, is you don't even try that. That's why scientists do experiments. In fact, in Galileo's case, kind of thought experiments. Like he didn't drop two balls off the top of the tower of Pisa, that would never have worked. He just had a very elegant thought argument why rate of fall would not be affected by mass. Sometimes he may have done experiments---a lot of them didn't.

    But the point is, ever since the 17th century, even before, scientists inquire of the world. They don't just observe it, they inquire of the world. That's called experiment. They concoct situations that might give you some insight, and from them they make some guesses about what the theories might be. And then they try other experiments to test the theories. And ultimately they sort of get back to phenomena, but they don't care very much if they get back to phenomena. Cause in fact, the phenomena themselves are so complex and involve so many variables, that you don't even try to approximate phenomena.

    Take the examples that I mentioned: bee scientists don't try to approximate bees swarming. It's just too complicated: the wind's blowing, one of them's changed his mind, whatever. And physicists certainly don't take a look what's going outside the window, and try to draw inductive generalizations from it.

    You go back far enough, pre-classical Greece, maybe science looked like that. But this is just mythology, it doesn't happen, and it couldn't happen. Scientists are inquiring about nature. And the same is true of linguistics. If you're a field worker, so you're working some unstudied language in the Amazon, if all you can do is take recordings, okay you take recordings. But you're not going to find much. If you're really doing serious field work, you use the techniques you learned in your field methods course in college. Namely you try to figure out the kinds of questions that will elicit data that might be significant and relevant.

    You just take a look at masses of data, you basically get nothing, just noise. It's true that it's a methodological critique, but it's a methodological critique of something that dominates in the human sciences that has absolutely nothing to do with science. That's true of the whole behaviorist tradition, or of what was called behavioral science---1950s all the human sciences were called behavioral science. That makes as much sense as calling physics "meter-reading science." It's true that---take Eddington and others---you can regard physics as, in principle, the study of meter-readings. But it's not meter-reading science. You're using the meter-readings trying to discover something about the world.

    Well behavior's just data. Not all the data, incidentally, just some of the data. And selected parts of that data, if you aren't smart enough to figure out which ones, may tell you something about human capacities and the nature of the mind. But to just collect data and organize it somehow is going to get you nowhere. If you can't think of anything else to do, no ideas, then maybe you do that. But it's not the way science is done.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xerglwYdkE


    2. Well that's about it really, but the common excuse for Socionics is something like, "Well it's not supposed to be objective blah blah blah... it's subjective!". Actually, it's worse than just subjective, since the theory is based on fucking observations. It's not subjective at all. It's EMPIRICISM, in the worst sense.

    When you say, "See this video here, this is Fe", then that's a fucking observation, NOT an explanation. And we are rather seeking explanations, WHY that happened, WHY he did that, HOW did it cause that behavior, etc, etc. NOT observations. We don't really care about observations, other than to test and experiment the theory, which is a particular interpretation of reality.

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    Okay, Singu is extrovert and doesn't value Ni, probably values Te. LSE-Te CONFIRMED

    I said CONFIRMED
    good bye

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    To be honest... I just want to figure out why Socionics doesn't work the way it does, because it has been bugging me. But I think that I am getting pretty good clues as to why. Now I think, that the whole approach is wrong, as in its philosophy is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by strangeling View Post
    Okay, Singu is extrovert and doesn't value Ni, probably values Te. LSE-Te CONFIRMED

    I said CONFIRMED
    Justificationist.

    You cannot confirm, or verify, or prove, or anything of that sort. You can only CRITICIZE and IMPROVE!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    To be honest... I just want to figure out why Socionics doesn't work the way it does, because it has been bugging me. But I think that I am getting pretty good clues as to why. Now I think, that the whole approach is wrong, as in its philosophy is wrong.
    I can somewhat understand that. Most of the other personality tools are usually something that looks like some small group which could probably be derived out from Socionics. Big 5 and other phycological tools have the same trouble areas I think even when Big 5 do not really have types. Its a lot of talking, diagnosis from what the person is telling you etc. Medical doctors might use what the person say aswell when making diagnosis. Clearly people have personalities and many people have found, on their own observations, that you meet a lot of people and after a while you see the same typ of personalities over and over in other people.

    Going in a Socionics forum and saying Socionics are shit and the people are crackheads are really trolly of you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Justificationist.

    You cannot confirm, or verify, or prove, or anything of that sort. You can only CRITICIZE and IMPROVE!
    NO U
    And this makes you LSE Ni-POLR CONFIRMED

    JUST ACCEPT IT. IT'S YOUR DESTINY.

    Ni POLR CONFIRMED
    good bye

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    Wait, does this all mean socionics is over now?

    IM FREE NOW
    good bye

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    Quote Originally Posted by strangeling View Post
    NO U
    And this makes you LSE Ni-POLR CONFIRMED

    JUST ACCEPT IT. IT'S YOUR DESTINY.

    Ni POLR CONFIRMED
    Well I think the idea of making observations to come up with a hypothesis is fucking stupid (also, not science), so I don't think that's very LSE. Not that that sort of thing is actually "LSE", but you get the point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Well I think the idea of making observations to come up with a hypothesis is fucking stupid (also, not science), so I don't think that's very LSE. Not that that sort of thing is actually "LSE", but you get the point.
    See that's why u r LSE.

    ALL IS REVEALED
    good bye

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    To be honest... I just want to figure out why Socionics doesn't work the way it does, because it has been bugging me. But I think that I am getting pretty good clues as to why. Now I think, that the whole approach is wrong, as in its philosophy is wrong.



    Justificationist.

    You cannot confirm, or verify, or prove, or anything of that sort. You can only CRITICIZE and IMPROVE!
    It's not that socionics is not working but that's something to do with your brain, your personality. Socionics is just not for you. I guess you would have problems with most theories where a bit of imagination to aid the common sense is required. The true reason why socionics doesnt work for you is because you lack imagination big time and because of that you can't use the theory properly. And then when looking for reasons why socionics is not good you try to use another theory you dont understand either.

    Nobody reasonable ever said induction is wrong and that is not science. Only crackpots. It's valid method as every other. Every method which can give you good results is valid. If you can't use it it doesn't mean it's wrong, if it's wrong for you it's not wrong for me.

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    I think that about the only way to fully understand a person, is to fully understand *every* one of his values and ideas. Every one of them. Because the values and the ideas of a person is what makes a person, in general. So you can reasonably predict what he's going to do next with that knowledge. (You cannot extrapolate information from observation, nor you can "project" values onto the person from a theory, so to speak.)

    But then you can't predict what kind of values he's going to adopt next, so there is an inherent unpredictability in human beings.

    But we CAN predict, that if he adopts a certain value, then he might do this, etc. That is, after we have studied and understood carefully how those values lead to this or that. So in essence, what we might need is a study of every single values that exist in a society.

    A good value to adopt is, "I could be wrong. In fact, I AM likely wrong. But it can be improved".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    I think that about the only way to fully understand a person, is to fully understand *every* one of his values and ideas. Every one of them. Because the values and the ideas of a person is what makes a person, in general. So you can reasonably predict what he's going to do next with that knowledge. (You cannot extrapolate information from observation
    People also have experiences, possessions, circumstances, abilities, constitutions, appearances, friends, acquaintances, enemies, debts, obligations, feelings, desires, resolutions, communities, habits, and an infinite number of things besides values and ideas. This leaves us having to.... extrapolate information from observation. Dun duuuuuun DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN! I advise you to get better at it instead of farting around theorizing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pallas Athena View Post
    People also have experiences, possessions, circumstances, abilities, constitutions, appearances, friends, acquaintances, enemies, debts, obligations, feelings, desires, resolutions, communities, habits, and an infinite number of things besides values and ideas.
    I'm pretty sure all of those things turn into values and ideas. Of course, I'm not saying that's all a person is, but it's a good start.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pallas Athena View Post
    This leaves us having to.... extrapolate information from observation. Dun duuuuuun DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN! I advise you to get better at it instead of farting around theorizing.
    That's called inductivism, and inductivism doesn't work, because the future doesn't resemble the past. The way science works ISN'T inductivism, as in, you observe something and then you make up a theory, and the more evidence and observations that you collect to confirm the theory, the better. Please read up on "problem of induction".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    I'm pretty sure all of those things turn into values and ideas. Of course, I'm not saying that's all a person is, but it's a good start.
    Actually... they don't! For example, say you're a midget. You think it's a great idea to be average height or above, but alas, you're not, because values and ideas don't actually translate to reality.


    That's called inductivism, and inductivism doesn't work, because the future doesn't resemble the past. The way science works ISN'T inductivism, as in, you observe something and then you make up a theory, and the more evidence and observations that you collect to confirm the theory, the better. Please read up on "problem of induction".
    ...I just told you trying to figure out how people work based on science is a godawful idea, and this would be why. The future does resemble the past to human cognition ("memory" "learning,") which means everyone is anti-science by default. Muahahahahahahahahahaha

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pallas Athena View Post
    Actually... they don't! For example, say you're a midget. You think it's a great idea to be average height or above, but alas, you're not, because values and ideas don't actually translate to reality.
    Right, and I think the point is to understand how the *mind* works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pallas Athena View Post
    ...I just told you trying to figure out how people work based on science is a godawful idea, and this would be why.
    If not science, then what else? Magic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pallas Athena View Post
    The future does resemble the past to human cognition ("memory" "learning,") which means everyone is anti-science by default. Muahahahahahahahahahaha
    That's why the human cognition is fallible and it doesn't work in that way (consequently, why "Ni" also does NOT *actually* predict the future [maybe you think that it does]). You can obviously, only predict the future through analysis or understanding of say, universal laws that stay the same throughout the time and space.

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    People are not static, that is probably the biggest reason why it is not fully explained. There are too many variations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    Well yes, but also like social values, like a lot of the "isms". I think these ideas are expressed as "memes" or "memetics" in biology. Memes are like "evolution of ideas", they survive for no other reason that they survive and are replicated in people. Obviously, good ideas survive for that they have survived all the criticisms. Maybe someone could explain how is it possible that these ideas are created. In evolution, we don't ask why something is there, but rather, we ask how was it possible and through what processes can cause something to be there.

    I think I will have to read Richard Dawkins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    It needs to get up to 420

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    Troll 🤣

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    https://www.psycom.net/schizophrenia-test
    http://illnessquiz.com/schizophrenia-test/ - longer one

    Don't get me wrong, it's in good faith. I think in crackpot threads it's good to post it.

    By the way any answer yes in first test indicates serious issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by falsehope View Post
    https://www.psycom.net/schizophrenia-test
    http://illnessquiz.com/schizophrenia-test/ - longer one

    Don't get me wrong, it's in good faith. I think in crackpot threads it's good to post it.

    By the way any answer yes in first test indicates serious issue.
    Not much different from a socionics test.

    Do you ever hear or see things that others cannot?

    Never
    Rarely
    Sometimes
    Often
    Very Often

    Do you struggle to trust that what you are thinking is real?

    Never
    Rarely
    Sometimes
    Often
    Very Often

    Do you get the sense that others are controlling your thoughts and emotions?

    Never
    Rarely
    Sometimes
    Often
    Very Often

    Do you struggle to keep up with daily living tasks such as showering, changing clothes, paying bills, cleaning, cooking, etc.?

    Never
    Rarely
    Sometimes
    Often
    Very Often

    Do you feel that you have powers that other people cannot understand or appreciate?

    Never
    Rarely
    Sometimes
    Often
    Very Often

    Do you find it difficult to organize or keep track of your thinking?

    Never
    Rarely
    Sometimes
    Often
    Very Often

    Do other people say that it is difficult for you to stay on subject or for them to understand you?

    Never
    Rarely
    Sometimes
    Often
    Very Often

    Do you feel that you have little in common with family and friends?

    Never
    Rarely
    Sometimes
    Often
    Very Often

    Do you feel that you are being tracked, followed, or watched at home or outside?

    Never
    Rarely
    Sometimes
    Often
    Very Often

    Do other people have a difficult time guessing your emotions by your facial expressions?

    Never
    Rarely
    Sometimes
    Often
    Very Often

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

  36. #36
    Bertrand's Avatar
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    I get mild indicator of schizophrenia on the first one

  37. #37
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    I get mild indicator of schizophrenia on the first one
    Same

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

  38. #38

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    I admit I was trying to be kind of funny/ironic in the OP, but I'm not trolling right now (if anything, Pallas Athena is trolling). And you still haven't answered my question, how *does* Socionics explain people's thoughts and behavior?

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    I admit I was trying to be kind of funny/ironic in the OP, but I'm not trolling right now (if anything, Pallas Athena is trolling).
    Either you're trolling or you insist on bringing up the same pointless argument over and over again without comprehending even the most basic aspects of socionics. In either case there is no point responding to you.

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