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Thread: LIE-SEI conflict reactions (ENTj and ISFp)

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    i feel this post was stupid
    Last edited by marooned; 08-10-2020 at 07:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duschia View Post
    Dunno if I can speak for others mentioned, but no, I don't feel you find valid points against about any LIE (or 'LIE') on this very forum. You definitely think too highly of your arguments, abilities and thoughts, not considering you may be in the 'wrong' here.

    (Actually, the only point I held against you was/is your constant check-fail on Fi and, well, kinda at integrity (in my eyes). This is the problem here, not yours or LIEs' Te. And yes, I'm a bit harsh at times, but I hope for the best intentions for you)
    Hmm, I do have strong moral principles that I refuse to change tho. I just don't seem to value the same things as you do. I know sbbds noted Fi PolR because of this on my end, but really she is Fi PolR as well, but she holds similar values to you guys, values I don't hold, its obvious if I push her far enough.. so imo on my end its not an issue with weak Fi, its something else.

    There is a well fleshed out PC-game character, my values, thought processes and so on are very similar to her's. Whoever wrote her understands how I see things very well:



    Other ILIs in past posts seem to think in similar ways. This is from 2014, some other ILI:

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantom Shadow View Post
    My Fe PoLR manifest itself when people say, or imply that I'm not compassionate, empathic, and/or sympathetic to other when in fact I am. I just don't put it as main priority in my decision making process there needs to be balance between ethos and logos. If someone were to ask why I do not donate money to starving kids in Africa? I would say, "Millions of dollars are donated to starving Africans a year in spite of this there has been no significant changes. If people there are so desperate for their survival why don't they move somewhere else, or band together fix the cause of the problem, or take the resources they need. By giving them what they've not earned all have taught them is dependency on others kindness. Not mention that their starvation is merely a symptom of a greater affliction that has yet to be addressed."

    "If you seek to aid everyone that suffers in the galaxy, you will only weaken yourself… and weaken them. It is the internal struggles, when fought and won on their own, that yield the strongest rewards. You stole that struggle from them, cheapened it. If you care for others, then dispense with pity and sacrifice and recognize the value in letting them fight their own battles. And when they triumph, they will be even stronger for the victory."
    ―Kreia
    Last edited by SGF; 08-07-2020 at 06:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    Hmm, imo you are doing much better in the thinking department than a lot of LIEs, at the very least you try to consider all points of view and think things through. I have rather high standards for myself and others (being melancholic), so consider this a compliment.

    With LIEs my problem usually is that their arguments / projects seem like they haven't been properly thought through, as if they run on bad information or lack information and fail at being pragmatic / realistic about how things are & what is actually possible.. ie I find fault with their thinking / decision-making process. In comparison my only problem with an SLEs thinking process is that they seem rash / impulsive, but we are usually on the same page despite that & I can respect them. Not the case with LIE.. idk why. My default is to excessively think things through, I'm very careful & deliberate making sure I don't miss anything. Maybe its that and LIE's thinking seems sloppy and superficial by comparison.

    Its weird tho. Every person I antagonize ends up being someone who types LIE lmao.
    I imagine LIE may be some of the people most comfortable engaging in disagreement with you and continuing in it. That doesn't mean they are unusually antagonized by something you do or say.

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    Oh dear I've been accused of lacking empathy too in work settings. Be like us or die is the motto from my frame of reference. I've massacred myself just not to die. You need to be the most placid non-critical person ever or else. Be docile IOW.

    Work places are my pain realm. The death of self-expression, the demand for drones all based on the comfort levels of so-called leaders. The hyper-sensitive are not leaders in my book.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    I imagine LIE may be some of the people most comfortable engaging in disagreement with you and continuing in it. That doesn't mean they are unusually antagonized by something you do or say.
    hmm, so why note Fi PolR then and consider me having lack of integrity? I don't think what I say / think / value differs much from what other ILIs here have posted be4 for years, as the above example (Phantom Shadow's quote) shows. Shouldn't we be mirror types and hold similar levels of machiavellianism ?

    Example:

    Quote Originally Posted by Duschia View Post
    (Actually, the only point I held against you was/is your constant check-fail on Fi and, well, kinda at integrity (in my eyes). This is the problem here, not yours or LIEs' Te. And yes, I'm a bit harsh at times, but I hope for the best intentions for you)
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    Oh dear I've been accused of lacking empathy too in work settings. Be like us or die is the motto from my frame of reference. I've massacred myself just not to die. You need to be the most placid non-critical person ever or else. Be docile IOW.

    Work places are my pain realm. The death of self-expression, the demand for drones all based on the comfort levels of so-called leaders. The hyper-sensitive are not leaders in my book.
    I agree lol. I do care about ppl tho, in my own way. I don't lack empathy, on the contrary.
    Last edited by SGF; 08-07-2020 at 07:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    hmm, so why note Fi PolR then and consider me having lack of integrity? I don't think what I say / think / value differs much from what other ILIs here have posted be4 for years, as the above example (Phantom Shadow's quote) shows. Shouldn't we be mirror types and hold similar levels of machiavellianism ?

    .
    I don't recall saying you have Fi Polr. disagreeing with you or challenging you about utility and method and factualness and EQ isn't saying you are Fi polr

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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    I don't recall saying you have Fi Polr. disagreeing with you or challenging you about utility and method and factualness and EQ isn't saying you are Fi polr
    my EQ is not low imo. Its not like I don't pick up on other people's body language, emotions, intentions, desires, morals, the context and fail to sympathize or empathize. All of that registers I just actively chose to set it aside and consider what makes sense logically. Decisions are based on considering both.
    What is right and win-win may not seem that way at first glance and often what ppl consider to be right is win-lose do-gooder shallowness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duschia View Post
    I think the answer here is that you don't mirror LIEs, regardless of your type. Mirrors usually go along just fine, even when looking from different, kinda warped-but-same perspectives that compliment each other.

    I also don't think your writing and thoughts are that similar /in essence/ to what Phantom Shadow said in that thread (would be cool if they were active, regardless whether they are actually ILI or not - maybe they would reply). And then, some responses to him:



    Then you can see him discussing with nanashi, Aramas, etc., as well as posts from skepsis and Tearsaofclown. Note that his Fi doesn't seem to be particularly developed as HA. Moreover: he goes on his inability to answer Fe-valuing types calls for emotional reactions, which is true in theory for Fe-PoLR. If I've seen anything from you shotgun, is that you have asked people - me included - for more emotional reactions and clarity, as you 'couldn't read shit without them' and felt insecure (then ofc you got back to 'I'm soooo goood at reading peopleee'). I'm sorry, but this is true.
    I'm good at reading people, but that doesn't mean I need to cater to them or agree with them in any way, especially if I consider their actions wrong and harmful long term. If the person is further on the autism spectrum they convey misleading or outright confusing body-language, which sucks to read, so at that point the influx of information is the same, but contains bad information. On a forum obviously that is unavailable, so the way you write is all I have to go on.

    Offtopic, but I feel ILI/INTp is severely misunderstood here (with possibly many mistypes from especially, and some from Fi PoLRs), as it seems that ILIs hold no regard for Fi, while this is their HA. In Aushra original descriptions, you can read about Balzac: 'First and foremost, he is kind'. Despite his /usual/ problems with emotional atmospheres, engaging, conformation, expressions, all that stuff; they are mostly shying away from direct conflicts unless you really press them over the edge on their values, then they can go ballistic.
    Kind = / = telling people what they want to hear. ILI is called the critic, but I'm not that attached to the type, esp not considering I seem to disagree with LIEs most of the time.

    IF you ask anyone who knows me IRL, they say:


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    @ shotgunfingers

    The ILI program is more about shaking the masses out of mental autopilot (or more cynically, subverting worldviews and filling the vaccuum with their own agenda). See any of END's posts.

    You mostly complain about emotional atmosphere, etiquette of discourse, and social projection impacting what it is possible for you to say and your potential to be taken seriously in discussion (something usually only women, male feelers, ILE, or incel-LSI-about-to-go-postal comment on). IMO you seem alpha irrational, "complex of tied mouth."

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    Quote Originally Posted by inaLim View Post
    @ shotgunfingers

    The ILI program is more about shaking the masses out of mental autopilot (or more cynically, subverting worldviews and filling the vaccuum with their own agenda). See any of END's posts.

    You mostly complain about emotional atmosphere, etiquette of discourse, and social projection impacting what it is possible for you to say and your potential to be taken seriously in discussion (something usually only women, male feelers, ILE, or incel-LSI-about-to-go-postal comment on). IMO you seem alpha irrational, "complex of tied mouth."
    yes, because that is mainly my biggest source of insecurity. Nothing bothers me as much as needing to comply with social etiquette. Its like I'm some kind of idiot when it comes to social norms.
    Its not like I'm autistic and fail to read people, its more like I'd rather be in a gunfight, survive alone in the wilderness than try to navigate social mores. Even as a kid my mother used to constantly correct my behavior and I'd get pissed @ why I wasn't allowed to just do and say certain things.. later I kinda figured out why e_e social backlash to a bumbling fool can suck dick and be traumatizing if you are a 9 year old alone for 2 weeks with ppl who barely know you and your antics.

    Idk, would that be within SEI range of issues and I conflict with LIE because I'm SEI?

    I doubt ILE, because of me being a 6 in the enneagram and melancholic in nature. In 9 years of working at the same job (ofc I got promoted every year+raise) I have been late ONCE. I'm extremely careful, deliberate and think things through thoroughly *shrug*.. ILEs are more type 7 oddball irresponsible ppl. Meanwhile I'll go to work on the weekend to correct the mistake of my boss & help the company even if it wasn't asked of me & I think low of the boss / consider him an idiot. (conscientious af)
    Last edited by SGF; 08-07-2020 at 01:19 PM.

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    I would consider those ILE issues.

    If you tend to see Fi doms as aliens beyond your grasp, and Te doms as misguided peers (and you can see through and handle their bullshit as they switch between objective improvement Te, Tunnel vision Te, and cherry-picking data/organizing to further their agenda Te), then you are probably ILE

    If you tend to see Te doms as aliens beyond your grasp, and Fi doms as misguided peers (and you can see through and handle their bullshit as they switch between authenticity/respecting interpersonal distance Fi, manipulative guilt tripping Fi, and conditioning you to their values Fi), then you are probably SEI

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    Quote Originally Posted by inaLim View Post
    I would consider those ILE issues.

    If you tend to see Fi doms as aliens beyond your grasp, and Te doms as misguided peers (and you can see through and handle their bullshit as they switch between objective improvement Te, Tunnel vision Te, and cherry-picking data/organizing to further their agenda Te), then you are probably ILE

    If you tend to see Te doms as aliens beyond your grasp, and Fi doms as misguided peers (and you can see through and handle their bullshit as they switch between authenticity/respecting interpersonal distance Fi, manipulative guilt tripping Fi, and conditioning you to their values Fi), then you are probably SEI
    @inaLim, aside from these descriptions being pretty accurate, they're really funny.

    You should do an analysis of every type. That would be great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by inaLim View Post
    I would consider those ILE issues.

    If you tend to see Fi doms as aliens beyond your grasp, and Te doms as misguided peers (and you can see through and handle their bullshit as they switch between objective improvement Te, Tunnel vision Te, and cherry-picking data/organizing to further their agenda Te), then you are probably ILE

    If you tend to see Te doms as aliens beyond your grasp, and Fi doms as misguided peers (and you can see through and handle their bullshit as they switch between authenticity/respecting interpersonal distance Fi, manipulative guilt tripping Fi, and conditioning you to their values Fi), then you are probably SEI
    Fi : an analytical state of mind, analysis of personal feeling and stances, harmony or disharmony of personal values and sentiments, endearment, closeness, moral satisfaction, emotional sensitivity, deep personal conviction that may produce moral firmness and resolve

    Fi doesn't bother me tbh as I also have very firm moral values I refuse to compromise. My values are the foundation on which I build logic. Generally I tend to enjoy the moral firmness of the few ppl I have met who identify as ESI. Imo a lot of ppl these days are too frivolous and play lose with morals for sure. The ppl in Jersey Shore for example are disgusting imo. Considering I'm melancholic in temperament, this shouldn't really be a surprise. I'm always fully aware how I relate to everyone and everything around me.

    Te doms don't seem like aliens to me, but I do seem to strongly disagree with LIEs and view them as incompetent, misguided, esp when it comes to their Fi. To me it always seems naive and borrowed, as if its not theirs, as if they just adopt morality from an external source. Its kinda pathetic & clueless imo.
    Last edited by SGF; 08-07-2020 at 05:31 PM.

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    Ti is not an effin value. It is like structure. A square is a square, a circle is a circle and how it plays together. That is Ti.

    Because society there is a structure this is where Ti meets Fe.

    Then there is greedy business and frienship games what we call Te-Fi.
    Last edited by The Reality Denialist; 08-07-2020 at 06:34 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duschia View Post
    You may be talking about Ti-build values, which also can be 'refusing to compromise' and pretty firm. They do happen in some Fe-egos as well (see: Mother Theresa, probably IEI). The more Fi-build - the one you see in LIEs for example - seem 'naive and borrowed' to you, maybe (contrary: Fe doms usually feel very fake to me, example ESEs).
    You are talking about principles I think. Principles are not values, they are not subjective relational fields between the self and objects.
    A principle tells me nothing about how I relate to you or what Adam said in "y" post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duschia View Post
    I personally think what we usually see as /valuing/ and maybe even /morals/ can be either Fi (and Te) or Ti (and Fe) based, where Fi is usually more personal (see: liking the object and speaking from a bond perspective), while Ti more system-based (cough most organized religions cough). These two different in 'from where we come from', interpretations and overall flavor (for me, Ti rules/principia don't feel so great). And of course, a person can use - with different preference - both Fi and Ti to build something.

    Edit: you may feel like you dislike us and yet not use Fi for that, lol. XLEs with time can see that they 'dislike' someone, if they don't want to play Fe with them, base more Fi rules and generally disdain they Ti-thoughts.
    Hmm, knew a LII once. He was religious (protestant) and based his faith on Kantian deontology. While I enjoyed discussing Ti with him, it always bothered me that he'd rely on an abstract system like that. To me it seemed like even if it was elegant, it had little utility IRL.. as ppl could just disregard it without the necessary violence to enforce such a morality. Its also kinda how I see rights. Without the will to defend rights and violence to back up that will, we have no rights, its just make-believe. If there is nobody there to enforce the law, the law doesn't matter lol unless you chose to follow it regardless.. e_e meh I never cared much about religion tho. It made sense that one would have the free will to chose to be moral or not and that the choice was important.

    I don't think I dislike you guys as ppl, I just fundamentally disagree with a lot of how you think & see the world. If I'd hate/disliked you we wouldn't be talking. I don't even go see, let alone talk with my grandmother for example, I hate her to that extent for what she has done to my parents and for the kind of person she was and continues to be.

    Back: I also would like to remind you that maybe a month ago you were reading about Fi (and how they see Fi) on one of socionics derivatives and you were yourself going with 'wtf I don't relate to it all, I do see a lot of Ti in me tho'. You saw Fi as very alien. Then you seem to have forgotten about that.
    Yeah, I haven't forgotten, it was this: https://cognitivetype.com/fi-behaviorism-mythology/ I can't relate to it.

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    Well, Gulenko has revised LII and dumped angsty rebels into beta NF stall.
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    Beta NF have strong Fi even if it isn't valued. I agree with @shotgunfingers, the types most likely naively absorbing morality from others (probably their Fi dom duals) are the Te leads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duschia View Post
    But it's an unvalued function. Valued output and acceptance of valued input is of Ti nature, not Fi. If there is a fixation on something, it's Ti (weak but desired), not Fi. Fi is either demo or ignoring in Fe-egos.
    Your strong unconscious functions are used to support your valued ones. The weak valued functions are too weak to produce anything useful on their own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duschia View Post
    I think this may be just a difference between LXI and XLE. For XLE, Ti is kind of a tool (a very valuable and valued nonetheless, but it's below Ne or Se, and in strength below demo Te), while LXI is basically Ti-centric (and Te-ignoring, an aspect you don't seem to ignore yourself). And ofc religion =/= Ti, as you have irreligious Ti-egos and religious Fi-egos (but of different flavor).
    :> you and sbbds seem to be of the opinion that I'm alpha quadra ILE.. but there are some serious problems with such a typing as ILEs are goofy extroverts interested in novelty, exploring ideas and prototyping - inventing.

    .. I'm more of a melancholic-choleric emotionally reactive introvert, who's main interest seems to be a sociocultural paradigm shift away from the current trajectory of a meaningless & empty life chasing GDP as wage slave

    lol this band has my gaming days nichname "Lich King" lmao

    Last edited by SGF; 08-08-2020 at 11:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphaeales View Post
    Ti creative twisty logical use back at it again
    explain plz?

    *sigh* i could be Te demonstrative and thats why I disagree with LIEs sure.

    *shrug* at least if ILE.. my duals can be hott af and scare LIEs :>.. where is that pole dancing SEI girl Sol posted in 2015..?

    Last edited by SGF; 08-08-2020 at 06:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    Fi : an analytical state of mind, analysis of personal feeling and stances, harmony or disharmony of personal values and sentiments, endearment, closeness, moral satisfaction, emotional sensitivity, deep personal conviction that may produce moral firmness and resolve

    Fi doesn't bother me tbh as I also have very firm moral values I refuse to compromise. My values are the foundation on which I build logic. Generally I tend to enjoy the moral firmness of the few ppl I have met who identify as ESI. Imo a lot of ppl these days are too frivolous and play lose with morals for sure. The ppl in Jersey Shore for example are disgusting imo. Considering I'm melancholic in temperament, this shouldn't really be a surprise. I'm always fully aware how I relate to everyone and everything around me.

    Te doms don't seem like aliens to me, but I do seem to strongly disagree with LIEs and view them as incompetent, misguided, esp when it comes to their Fi. To me it always seems naive and borrowed, as if its not theirs, as if they just adopt morality from an external source. Its kinda pathetic & clueless imo.
    that isn't how I experience my Fi, but ILI do see LIE's challenges with Fi, as do LIEs see ILIs challenges with Se....

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    yes, because that is mainly my biggest source of insecurity. Nothing bothers me as much as needing to comply with social etiquette. Its like I'm some kind of idiot when it comes to social norms.
    Its not like I'm autistic and fail to read people, its more like I'd rather be in a gunfight, survive alone in the wilderness than try to navigate social mores. Even as a kid my mother used to constantly correct my behavior and I'd get pissed @ why I wasn't allowed to just do and say certain things.. later I kinda figured out why e_e social backlash to a bumbling fool can suck dick and be traumatizing if you are a 9 year old alone for 2 weeks with ppl who barely know you and your antics.

    Idk, would that be within SEI range of issues and I conflict with LIE because I'm SEI?

    I doubt ILE, because of me being a 6 in the enneagram and melancholic in nature. In 9 years of working at the same job (ofc I got promoted every year+raise) I have been late ONCE. I'm extremely careful, deliberate and think things through thoroughly *shrug*.. ILEs are more type 7 oddball irresponsible ppl. Meanwhile I'll go to work on the weekend to correct the mistake of my boss & help the company even if it wasn't asked of me & I think low of the boss / consider him an idiot. (conscientious af)
    One of my ILI buds got low conscientiousness on big 5 test, but I doubt that...I'd trust that ILI with someone's life, etc...but ...I'm not sure they're as conscientious as you're describing

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    my EQ is not low imo. Its not like I don't pick up on other people's body language, emotions, intentions, desires, morals, the context and fail to sympathize or empathize. All of that registers I just actively chose to set it aside and consider what makes sense logically. Decisions are based on considering both.
    What is right and win-win may not seem that way at first glance and often what ppl consider to be right is win-lose do-gooder shallowness.
    I think you're looking at just a few aspects of EQ and not realizing the others are EQ skills as well:""Your EQ is the level of your ability to understand other people, what motivates them and how to work cooperatively with them," says Howard Gardner, the influential Harvard theorist."

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    I kind of get offended when people Fi around me. It is bit oxymoron because it goes against their modus operandi that is supposed to prevent it.

    Pretense of treasuring relationship which means catering to their feels so you can suck they in the future which makes me see it as even highly unethical behavior. There are people who really like some good moist kiss on their butt cheeks.
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    Haikus Dr PissBender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by COVID 007 View Post
    I kind of get offended when people Fi around me. It is bit oxymoron because it goes against their modus operandi that is supposed to prevent it.

    Pretense of treasuring relationship which means catering to their feels so you can suck they in the future which makes me see it as even highly unethical behavior. There are people who really like some good moist kiss on their butt cheeks.
    *Fi's around u*

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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    One of my ILI buds got low conscientiousness on big 5 test, but I doubt that...I'd trust that ILI with someone's life, etc...but ...I'm not sure they're as conscientious as you're describing
    I'm messy and not the most structured or planned guy around, but when shit hits the fan I'm the one who goes to work on the weekend to sort out the mess and fix the problem or begrudgingly stay till past midnight on a Sunday to fix the network & the economic director's workstation after she infected everything with ransomware.. because she has payments to make on Monday. I can't help it.. I like it when the job is done well and efficiently. I dislike it when ppl at work do a sloppy job or show indifference towards their work, because its irresponsible and we lose money because of them. In my personal life sometimes I don't start projects, because I know I won't be able to do a proper job, my perfectionism leads to procrastination or avoidance.

    is this SEI-ish behavior? lol

    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    I think you're looking at just a few aspects of EQ and not realizing the others are EQ skills as well:""Your EQ is the level of your ability to understand other people, what motivates them and how to work cooperatively with them," says Howard Gardner, the influential Harvard theorist."
    could be, yeah.

    Quote Originally Posted by COVID 007 View Post
    I kind of get offended when people Fi around me. It is bit oxymoron because it goes against their modus operandi that is supposed to prevent it.

    Pretense of treasuring relationship which means catering to their feels so you can suck they in the future which makes me see it as even highly unethical behavior. There are people who really like some good moist kiss on their butt cheeks.
    e_e ass kissing is pathetic imo.. why ppl do it I can understand, but its not for me and I think low of ppl who do it.. yeah. It probably does me no favors at the job, but at least I have integrity and pride.
    Last edited by SGF; 08-09-2020 at 09:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by COVID 007 View Post
    I kind of get offended when people Fi around me. It is bit oxymoron because it goes against their modus operandi that is supposed to prevent it.

    Pretense of treasuring relationship which means catering to their feels so you can suck they in the future which makes me see it as even highly unethical behavior. There are people who really like some good moist kiss on their butt cheeks.
    I don't like when ppl try to manipulate me. I enjoy when people use Fi in a healthy way. I actually had a few Ti ppl, including a few ILEs, be so manipulative that it impacted my decision to hang.

    This can be any type that crosses manip lines
    Last edited by nanashi; 08-09-2020 at 07:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by COVID 007 View Post
    Ti is not an effin value. It is like structure. A square is a square, a circle is a circle and how it plays together. That is Ti.

    Because society there is a structure this is where Ti meets Fe.

    Then there is greedy business and frienship games what we call Te-Fi.
    naw....Te is structure that is checked in reality for now. Fi is a good reining in for all that organizing. Fi isn't friendship games. Honestly I respect and enjoy and see the good of Fe and Be and Si and Ti, but anyone can experience Fe as friendship games instead of the positive side of Fe or Ti as ignorantly and greedily constructed. But those are incomplete assessments

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    Hmm, imo you are doing much better in the thinking department than a lot of LIEs, at the very least you try to consider all points of view and think things through. I have rather high standards for myself and others (being melancholic), so consider this a compliment.

    With LIEs my problem usually is that their arguments / projects seem like they haven't been properly thought through, as if they run on bad information or lack information and fail at being pragmatic / realistic about how things are & what is actually possible.. ie I find fault with their thinking / decision-making process. In comparison my only problem with an SLEs thinking process is that they seem rash / impulsive, but we are usually on the same page despite that & I can respect them. Not the case with LIE.. idk why. My default is to excessively think things through, I'm very careful & deliberate making sure I don't miss anything. Maybe its that and LIE's thinking seems sloppy and superficial by comparison.

    Its weird tho. Every person I antagonize ends up being someone who types LIE lmao.
    The following may evince some of issues you are experiencing presuming you're ILI.
    "Ni as leading function in IEI (INFp; Esenin) and ILI (INTp; Balzac)
    This person considers himself to be very ideological, consistent, principled, and is very conservative in this. Becomes irritated by those who criticize his ideas. He lives by the "wholeness" of the internal situation. Often able to see "through" things, to the inner essence of something or someone. Romantic and idealist. Lives by his internal harmony, tranquility, serenity, is able to draw inspiration within himself, and gets annoyed by those who try to disturb it. Generally does not like when people try to look inside of him, gets frustrated and angry when this happens. Strives to be inwardly calm in all situations and internally consistent. "Fluid like a river": involuntarily adjusts himself to the interlocutor in conversation by taking form of consciousness that is best fitted for the situation. By this he isn't playing a role, his consciousness is simply multifaceted and he is directed by his inner "wholeness". That is, he simply presents a version of himself. Communicating with you, he always feels your moods as if he is living through them together with you, adjusts himself to this. Loves to introspect and to meditate. In case of failure, can make a qualitative self-analysis. Being present in some place he as if tunes himself out, tries to become invisible like a chameleon, especially if he perceives it as a threat to his inner tranquility: for example, in the workplace so that no one bothers him. Can even hide it in some clever way: arrange a barricade of folders so that behind them he is not visible. Does not like restless, internally discordant individuals, as their state can get transmitted to him, will try to escape from their company at any price. This is especially funny in a situation where a male representative of this type flees from ladies, and they pursue him like prey, because they feel that he has something that they so desperately need: inner peace. But for him this inner "wholeness" is not the product but material for inner consumption, so he can only share this with a small number of people, but sometimes someone might snatch a piece - this makes him very angry. Often, especially in circle of family, he becomes a critic, since deviation in behavior away from his principles turns him aggressive. If in another situation he will somehow restrain himself, at home he may allow himself to explode with anger.

    Ni as creative function of EIE (ENFj; Hamlet) and LIE (ENTj; Jack London)
    These types like to find internally contradictory people, "dig" in them and create in them internal harmony and mood. They make for great artists, because they know how to and love to "become" one with an image of a man and play a role from his worldview. They are able to understand the essence of complex internal situations and make for potentially good analysts. Often it is difficult to find employment for them, as their "product" is the internal conflicts of man and essence, and to penetrate so far, into "the soul" of man, you just need to have permission. Often become unstable, vulnerable, fragile, just so that they can harmonize themselves, and sometimes can start to torment and tear into themselves and dig into their own issues. They have a difficulty finding adequate application to their creative function in the world, since it is not in high demand - not everyone wants someone else to dig into their internal states. Their product - bold ideas, principles, systems of belief and knowledge that they bring into the world and promote. But they do this beautifully, creatively, elegantly, not forcibly imposing them but promoting them in interesting ways. Search for internally contradictory situations, like to grasp their essence. Often realize themselves in art and writing, as this is also a good way to use the function. They are able to enter into various internal psychological states. A good speaker, as he is able to influence positively on the internal state of others. Their product is the "wholeness" of the internal state, and therefore they can find success in field of psychology, because it means that they are the healers of souls. In life they loved to dramatize everything. Everyone around becomes informed about the slightest change in their mood or internal state. Usually they are very fond of "making mountains out of molehills", for them this is a way to find work for their second function. The more they become exposed - the greater the realization of their personality in the world."-Augusta, Information Elements, Wikisocion

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    Hmm, imo you are doing much better in the thinking department than a lot of LIEs, at the very least you try to consider all points of view and think things through. I have rather high standards for myself and others (being melancholic), so consider this a compliment.

    With LIEs my problem usually is that their arguments / projects seem like they haven't been properly thought through, as if they run on bad information or lack information and fail at being pragmatic / realistic about how things are & what is actually possible.. ie I find fault with their thinking / decision-making process. In comparison my only problem with an SLEs thinking process is that they seem rash / impulsive, but we are usually on the same page despite that & I can respect them. Not the case with LIE.. idk why. My default is to excessively think things through, I'm very careful & deliberate making sure I don't miss anything. Maybe its that and LIE's thinking seems sloppy and superficial by comparison.

    Its weird tho. Every person I antagonize ends up being someone who types LIE lmao.
    Other background on The usage in LIE and ILI that may be at work here:"Extroverted logic as base function is manifested as a need to accumulate factual information, also from external sources such as books, second-hand information, etc, on matters of personal interest or of professional activity. This also gives these types confidence on being well-informed on the same matters, which enables them to enter arguments related to them with confidence on their knowledge, which may come across as arrogance to others. Another manifestation is an evaluation of external reality - work activities, world events, finances, procedures, personal relationships, conversations - from the point of view of factual accuracy and "making sense" and efficiency. It leads to an inclination to be proactive in increasing the efficiency and reasonableness of the external world, as well as a sense of self-worth connected on being involved and productive in activities seen as useful, profitable, or that increase one's knowledge base. To give out information that the individual knows not to be factually accurate is disturbing and avoided as much as possible.

    Symbol p.gif as a creative (2nd) function (ILI and SLI)
    It is manifested as a preference for factual accuracy over ideological consistency, and for objective, "harsh" communication over careful words that avoid a negative atmosphere. A view of the external environment being efficient, reasonable, and making sense is essential to their well-being and sense of inner peace, but they do not feel a pressing need for being proactive or productive themselves in that area."

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    Hmm, imo you are doing much better in the thinking department than a lot of LIEs, at the very least you try to consider all points of view and think things through. I have rather high standards for myself and others (being melancholic), so consider this a compliment.

    With LIEs my problem usually is that their arguments / projects seem like they haven't been properly thought through, as if they run on bad information or lack information and fail at being pragmatic / realistic about how things are & what is actually possible.. ie I find fault with their thinking / decision-making process. In comparison my only problem with an SLEs thinking process is that they seem rash / impulsive, but we are usually on the same page despite that & I can respect them. Not the case with LIE.. idk why. My default is to excessively think things through, I'm very careful & deliberate making sure I don't miss anything. Maybe its that and LIE's thinking seems sloppy and superficial by comparison.

    Its weird tho. Every person I antagonize ends up being someone who types LIE lmao.
    And "Such an individual perceives information from without as feelings about the future, past, and present. For example, a sense of hurriedness, calmness, or heatedness, a sense of timeliness or prematureness, a sense of proper or improper life rhythm, a sense of impending danger or safety, anticipation, fear of being late, a sense of seeing the future, anxiety about what lies ahead, and so forth. At any given moment of one's life one has such a sense of time. One cannot live outside of time or be indifferent toward it. Thus, a certain sense of time is an integral part of the individual's psychological state at any given moment. This perceptual element defines a person's ability or inability to forecast and plan for the future, evade all sorts of troubles, avoid taking wrong actions, and learn from past experience.

    When this element is in the leading position, the individual possesses innate strategic abilities and is able to choose the most optimal moments for different activities: when to give battle, if necessary, and when to avoid battle, when that would be more appropriate. Interaction in time might be interpreted as the ability to avoid collisions with objects and hence avoid objects' reflection within oneself" and " Ni as a base (1st) function (IEI and ILI)
    As a base function, Ni generally manifests itself through a lack of direct attention to the world around oneself, and a sense of detachment or freedom from worldly affairs. This can lead to a highly developed imagination and very unique mental world, but it can also result in a great deal of laziness and apparent inactivity. Because the individual gets his or her primary information about the world through imagination, a person with base Ni may be able to thrive in situations where data are scarce, or where he or she lacks the usual prerequisite experience. However, this may also become a disadvantage if the person ignores real data about the world too much. The ability to transcend the axis of time and understand the cause and effect relationships that occur is also a feature, sometimes resulting in the ability to accurately predict general future trends and outcomes of certain events.

    Ni as a creative (2nd) function (EIE and LIE)
    The individual likes to predict the further development of the situations and topics that he is interested in. The individual applies his highly developed sense of vision not as an end in itself, but as a way of promoting the development of his more central interests and activities"

  33. #73
    Seed my wickedness The Reality Denialist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    naw....Te is structure that is checked in reality for now. Fi is a good reining in for all that organizing. Fi isn't friendship games. Honestly I respect and enjoy and see the good of Fe and Be and Si and Ti, but anyone can experience Fe as friendship games instead of the positive side of Fe or Ti as ignorantly and greedily constructed. But those are incomplete assessments
    Fi is the relationship function. It can be about base where it won't nudge easily or PoLR in which case people do not really have friends. (I once had but I realized it was due to social expectations so I could relax and take my time into my own control )
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    Quote Originally Posted by COVID 007 View Post
    Fi is the relationship function. It can be about base where it won't nudge easily or PoLR in which case people do not really have friends.
    I have had very close ILE friends. People thought we were in love, shared a bed platonicallly and were each other's wingwoman/man, etc close.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    I have had very close ILE friends. People thought we were in love, shared a bed platonicallly and were each other's wingwoman/man, etc close.
    Fi is one way to build relationships. it's not the only. and Fi isn't comprised solely of games.

    you thrive with heavy Si. I don't.
    I thrive with heavy Fi. You don't.

    simple.

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    Hmm... socionics has kind of given me relief. No more need to try to have friends because it gives no fulfillment.
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by COVID 007 View Post
    Fi is the relationship function. It can be about base where it won't nudge easily or PoLR in which case people do not really have friends. (I once had but I realized it was due to social expectations so I could relax and take my time into my own control )
    You are not serious about this? ILEs can value friendship very highly. But they seem to intellectualize their values.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by COVID 007 View Post
    Hmm... socionics has kind of given me relief. No more need to try to have friends because it gives no fulfillment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wasp View Post
    repost but I mean...


    I think Wuncler is supposed to be Dick Cheney.

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    To the LIE, the SEI does not work hard enough. To the SEI, the LIE does not care enough about details and personal comforts.





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