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Thread: Your typing of forum members

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    Quote Originally Posted by Manatroid92 View Post
    This is a fair comment, but really it’s all a matter of information/‘values’ preference.

    It’s not so dissimilar to Te thinking Ti bases are obtuse/missing the point and vice-versa. In reality both kinds of Ethical types ‘manipulate’, but I think that Fe/Fi bases can do so without even really meaning to.
    For example, an ESE or EIE might troll an emotionally-charged story is just letting their feelings out, but it seeps into the atmosphere and can change how their listeners feel about something. The manipulation, in a way, is actually palpable to
    everyone *except* the ExE, because they’re kind of just operating how they’re programmed to and aren’t wholly aware how they come off to others.
    Theres a difference between affecting and manipulating. Manipulating is done maliciously and usually consciously.


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    an unhealthy trait among Fi-Te valuers is probably a bit like closed-mindedness ?

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    the sensor Lucy pointing out the obvious since 3.2 million years ago.

    Is anyone else bored yet?
    "Too often we underestimate the power of a touch, a smile, a kind word, a listening ear, an honest compliment, or the smallest act of caring, all of which have the potential to turn a life around."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Lioness View Post
    Theres a difference between affecting and manipulating. Manipulating is done maliciously and usually consciously.
    You're right, I guess, I don't really disagree.

    The point I was trying to make is that neither type of Ethical is really doing it out of malicious intent, it's just what 'comes out' of them respectively.
    Fi types aren't trying to manipulate others in communication, and Te types are 'built' to appreciate them. For Fe-valuers, that Fi-style of communication may seem manipulative when it's really not.

    In the same way, Fe types aren't really trying to manipulate others in communication either; Ti types are, again, 'built' to appreciate them. Fi-valuers understandably judge their emotionality as manipulative when Fe-egos don't intend to do so, as well.

    It's just the nature of information elements to work that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by chriscorey View Post
    the sensor Lucy pointing out the obvious since 3.2 million years ago.

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    Lucy who?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Manatroid92 View Post
    You're right, I guess, I don't really disagree.

    The point I was trying to make is that neither type of Ethical is really doing it out of malicious intent, it's just what 'comes out' of them respectively.
    Fi types aren't trying to manipulate others in communication, and Te types are 'built' to appreciate them. For Fe-valuers, that Fi-style of communication may seem manipulative when it's really not.

    In the same way, Fe types aren't really trying to manipulate others in communication either; Ti types are, again, 'built' to appreciate them. Fi-valuers understandably judge their emotionality as manipulative when Fe-egos don't intend to do so, as well.

    It's just the nature of information elements to work that way.



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    Last edited by chriscorey; 10-02-2022 at 09:27 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manatroid92 View Post
    This is a fair comment, but really it’s all a matter of information/‘values’ preference.

    It’s not so dissimilar to Te thinking Ti bases are obtuse/missing the point and vice-versa. In reality both kinds of Ethical types ‘manipulate’, but I think that Fe/Fi bases can do so without even really meaning to.
    For example, an ESE or EIE might troll an emotionally-charged story is just letting their feelings out, but it seeps into the atmosphere and can change how their listeners feel about something. The manipulation, in a way, is actually palpable to
    everyone *except* the ExE, because they’re kind of just operating how they’re programmed to and aren’t wholly aware how they come off to others.
    This comment should be taken into account for type functional descriptions tbh
    If I'm not answering you, I'm either procrastinating a response, or I've judged the conversation as fruitless/already settled prior to the debate for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Lioness View Post
    Theres a difference between affecting and manipulating. Manipulating is done maliciously and usually consciously.
    When I listen to music or go to the theater or read a book etc, I want it to work on me emotionally. I want to be affected. I go to the theater to cry, I want to be affected. Affection and Emotional manipulation are closer than it seems, they are almost synonymous imho. Any kind of Art has at its very purpose the expression of the artist and the desire to "touch" the audience emotionally, to induce "something" in the other via emotions. Emotions "control" can be perceived as a manipulation but it's also at the core of every well crafted art. It's the prestige of the artist, the actor, the magician, the musician, the painter, the infographist, the dramatist, the movie director, the dancer, the cook, circus artist etc.. Again, to be in control of the audience's emotions is the prerogative of artists. Emotions are the universal language, it's powerful, communicative and indispensable.

    Without art and artists , therefore emotional power virtuosity, there is no civilizational development. All the philosophical questions of society have been, are and will always be expressed through art, "plays" and staging. There is no magic nore transcendence without emotions. The world always changes (hopefully for the good) after "Bravos" and applauses.

    Anyway, I just wanted to point out the fact that "Manipulating" is not always done maliciously.

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    So what you are basically saying is that all artists are IEI

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alive View Post
    So what you are basically saying is that all artists are IEI
    That's a Quantum leap statement Alive ahah ! It takes all sorts to make a world (and/or an artist !) !

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    I reach for an object
    A) it is let's say something nutritional and I give it to a starving person
    B) it is a loaded gun and point it towards someone and I pull the trigger

    In situations a and b the object was manipulated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguine Miasma View Post
    I reach for an object
    A) it is let's say something nutritional and I give it to a starving person
    B) it is a loaded gun and point it towards someone and I pull the trigger

    In situations a and b the object was manipulated.
    Colloquially manipulation refers to consciously change someone's thought without this person's notice, you took things out of context.
    If I'm not answering you, I'm either procrastinating a response, or I've judged the conversation as fruitless/already settled prior to the debate for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RBRS View Post
    Colloquially manipulation refers to consciously change someone's thought without this person's notice, you took things out of context.
    I rather use absolute definitions because otherwise we are inserting personal meanings and going out of objective realm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguine Miasma View Post
    I rather use absolute definitions because otherwise we are inserting personal meanings and going out of objective realm.
    If we're talking on concrete cases then taking traits out of concepts will only make it more difficult to reach a conclusion and archieve truth
    If I'm not answering you, I'm either procrastinating a response, or I've judged the conversation as fruitless/already settled prior to the debate for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RBRS View Post
    If we're talking on concrete cases then taking traits out of concepts will only make it more difficult to reach a conclusion and archieve truth
    There are cases in which shooting a person is ethically noble thing to do but it is not the default assumption. Same goes inversely to feeding someone. So, no if an action is done it is done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguine Miasma View Post
    There are cases in which shooting a person is ethically noble thing to do but it is not the default assumption. Same goes inversely to feeding someone. So, no if an action is done it is done.
    Manipulation as a general concept means altering the state of being of an object.

    Manipulation in this case means the actions where an individual or group of individuals exercises control over the behavior of a person or a group, using persuasion or mental suggestion techniques, seeking to eliminate the critical or self-critical capacities of the person, that is, their ability to judge or refuse information or mental orders.

    Taking traits out of the latter, to the point of using the general concept, is out of context and makes concluding the conversation impossible
    If I'm not answering you, I'm either procrastinating a response, or I've judged the conversation as fruitless/already settled prior to the debate for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RBRS View Post
    Manipulation as a general concept means altering the state of being of an object.

    Manipulation in this case means the actions where an individual or group of individuals exercises control over the behavior of a person or a group, using persuasion or mental suggestion techniques, seeking to eliminate the critical or self-critical capacities of the person, that is, their ability to judge or refuse information or mental orders.

    Taking traits out of the latter, to the point of using the general concept, is out of context and makes concluding the conversation impossible
    No, I consider it to be very same. So manipulation is the concept that could inherit ethical properties.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguine Miasma View Post
    No, I consider it to be very same. So manipulation is the concept that could inherit ethical properties.
    No, it is not the same, because it contains more defining characteristics that come to importance in this sort of discussion
    If I'm not answering you, I'm either procrastinating a response, or I've judged the conversation as fruitless/already settled prior to the debate for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RBRS View Post
    No, it is not the same, because it contains more defining characteristics that come to importance in this sort of discussion
    Nope. The point is that the manipulator does not register manipulation hence can not attribute his/her actions as such while other people do.
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    "manipulation (n.)by 1730, a method of digging ore, from French manipulation, from manipule "handful" (a pharmacists' measure), from Latin manipulus "handful, sheaf, bundle," from manus "hand" (from PIE root *man- (2) "hand") + root of plere "to fill" (from PIE root *pele- (1) "to fill"). Sense of "skillful handling of objects" is attested by 1826; extended 1828 to "handling or managing of persons," especially to one's own advantage."

    https://www.etymonline.com/word/manipulation

    There is an up to date Zeitgeist usage of a verb which conveys some of what we can call "emotional and/or mental" (not quite the same imho) manipulation : To Influence. So we now have words like "Influencers" which is another derived term for mass manipulation potential. There is an X-Files character called Robert Patrick Modell AKA "The Pusher", he had a tremendous power of suggestion/manipulation.
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    "Manipulation" in a colloquial sense has a negative connotation.

    It doesn't necessarly have to be negative in intent, nor do the consequences of it have to be negative for anyone involved.

    It doesn't have to be conscious either, most people manipulate without being aware. I don't think that's necessarily unhealthy.

    To be a "manipulator" implies more consistent manipulation. Even then, this doesn't have to mean the person does it consciously.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wavebury View Post
    "Manipulation" in a colloquial sense has a negative connotation.

    It doesn't necessarly have to be negative in intent, nor do the consequences of it have to be negative for anyone involved.

    It doesn't have to be conscious either, most people manipulate without being aware. I don't think that's necessarily unhealthy.

    To be a "manipulator" implies more consistent manipulation. Even then, this doesn't have to mean the person does it consciously.
    There might also exist personality traits or characterological behaviors that are conductive to influence without the need for intent
    If I'm not answering you, I'm either procrastinating a response, or I've judged the conversation as fruitless/already settled prior to the debate for me.

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    To me, “manipulation” in the general sense is neutral. To act/interact with another person is to elicit some sort of reaction/outcome. However, it can definitely have negative, malicious connotations, especially related to psychology/personality concepts.

    Fe can be manipulative in how emotionality is used to influence the mood, but it’s often for entertainment value/self-expression. Occasionally, there is malicious intent though (to belittle someone/a group, ruin the mood for everyone else).
    Last edited by EIE H; 10-02-2022 at 01:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by godslave View Post
    When I listen to music or go to the theater or read a book etc, I want it to work on me emotionally. I want to be affected. I go to the theater to cry, I want to be affected. Affection and Emotional manipulation are closer than it seems, they are almost synonymous imho. Any kind of Art has at its very purpose the expression of the artist and the desire to "touch" the audience emotionally, to induce "something" in the other via emotions. Emotions "control" can be perceived as a manipulation but it's also at the core of every well crafted art. It's the prestige of the artist, the actor, the magician, the musician, the painter, the infographist, the dramatist, the movie director, the dancer, the cook, circus artist etc.. Again, to be in control of the audience's emotions is the prerogative of artists. Emotions are the universal language, it's powerful, communicative and indispensable.

    Without art and artists , therefore emotional power virtuosity, there is no civilizational development. All the philosophical questions of society have been, are and will always be expressed through art, "plays" and staging. There is no magic nore transcendence without emotions. The world always changes (hopefully for the good) after "Bravos" and applauses.

    Anyway, I just wanted to point out the fact that "Manipulating" is not always done maliciously.
    I get where you're coming from, but I am basing it on book definition. "Manipulation is the exercise of harmful influence over others. People who manipulate others attack their mental and emotional sides to get what they want."

    If we say the definition of manipulate is "to alter" then it is neutral; but manipulating people, by book definition, is not simply altering.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Lioness View Post
    I get where you're coming from, but I am basing it on book definition. "Manipulation is the exercise of harmful influence over others. People who manipulate others attack their mental and emotional sides to get what they want."

    If we say the definition of manipulate is "to alter" then it is neutral; but manipulating people, by book definition, is not simply altering.
    I get why ESIs are described as being "bookish" in the Te department, kek.


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    @Lady Lioness
    ''bookish'' is not a common association with ESI, especially not in the sense of factual knowledge (a genuine interest in poetry and novellistic literature, where the exploration of the humanitarian region is central, is not so uncommon, but that is also more in the domain of the intuitive ethicals)
    if you have a self-perception of being bookish, it may be an atypical trait (of which there are many in people) or you may not be a sensory ethical type - excluding the logical types

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    Quote Originally Posted by EIE H View Post
    To me, “manipulation” in the general sense is neutral. To act/interact with another person is to elicit some sort of reaction/outcome. However, it can definitely have negative, malicious connotations, especially related to psychology/personality concepts.
    Seems like when done to a specific person by a specific person but even then it is not black and white. It is hardly so generically speaking and socionics dynamics is the obvious case for the generic case as it deals with abstracted elements.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blaecaedre View Post
    @Lady Lioness
    ''bookish'' is not a common association with ESI, especially not in the sense of factual knowledge (a genuine interest in poetry and novellistic literature, where the exploration of the humanitarian region is central, is not so uncommon, but that is also more in the domain of the intuitive ethicals)
    if you have a self-perception of being bookish, it may be an atypical trait (of which there are many in people) or you may not be a sensory ethical type - excluding the logical types
    Dude, I literally quoted an ESI description when I said that. Lol


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Lioness View Post
    Dude, I literally quoted an ESI description when I said that. Lol
    those who write descriptions are not necessarily right about their claims about types, especially when their claims go against common sense (ESIs being described as commonly having abilities in a weak function, for example) and the basics of the system
    going by what you said, they have perhaps mistyped some not-ESIs into ESI, thus getting the impression that an ethical type often is Te ''bookish'' - ESI is certainly often interested in factual knowledge, correct logical procedure and erudition (acitivities related to the superid functions are often interesting, inspiring and pleasant), but they hardly often excel there - it's like saying that SLI often are quite perceptive and innovative when it comes to new, interesting and novel prospects and ideas; they can be (usually limited to more specific activities where there is particular natural inclination, interest and practice), but it is certainly much less likely and can be considered an atypical trait
    introversion is probably also a factor in *general* bookishness, however, so you'd probably find more *generally* bookish ESIs than ESE, SEE

  30. #6190
    RBRS's Avatar
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    I wanna get typed by ppl but I'm a nobody here lol
    If I'm not answering you, I'm either procrastinating a response, or I've judged the conversation as fruitless/already settled prior to the debate for me.

  31. #6191
    blaecaedre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RBRS View Post
    I wanna get typed by ppl but I'm a nobody here lol
    try a video, we'll get our top type-detectives (certificate not required) working on it before you can say 'Gulenko'

  32. #6192
    RBRS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blaecaedre View Post
    try a video, we'll get our top type-detectives (certificate not required) working on it before you can say 'Gulenko'
    I did one short video once some time ago and got typed mostly ILI & EIE, I meant by post history (as a lot of users do) but don't take what I said too seriously I was just joking
    Last edited by RBRS; 10-03-2022 at 10:52 PM.
    If I'm not answering you, I'm either procrastinating a response, or I've judged the conversation as fruitless/already settled prior to the debate for me.

  33. #6193
    twiggewed dewusional entitwed snowfwake VewyScawwyNawcissist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RBRS View Post
    I wanna get typed by ppl but I'm a nobody here lol
    i would prolly try to type u but have deleted everything
    Your face makes your brain and sociotype – how muscle use shapes personality
    I want to care
    if I was better I’d help you
    if I was better you’d be better
    HELLO??? COME BACK!!!!
    i'm afraid it will hurt like hell, i am afraid of screaming and i am afraid of crying, i am afraid of forgetting but i'm not afraid of dying.



  34. #6194
    Ari Lady Lioness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blaecaedre View Post
    those who write descriptions are not necessarily right about their claims about types, especially when their claims go against common sense (ESIs being described as commonly having abilities in a weak function, for example) and the basics of the system
    going by what you said, they have perhaps mistyped some not-ESIs into ESI, thus getting the impression that an ethical type often is Te ''bookish'' - ESI is certainly often interested in factual knowledge, correct logical procedure and erudition (acitivities related to the superid functions are often interesting, inspiring and pleasant), but they hardly often excel there - it's like saying that SLI often are quite perceptive and innovative when it comes to new, interesting and novel prospects and ideas; they can be (usually limited to more specific activities where there is particular natural inclination, interest and practice), but it is certainly much less likely and can be considered an atypical trait
    introversion is probably also a factor in *general* bookishness, however, so you'd probably find more *generally* bookish ESIs than ESE, SEE
    That's nice.


    sᴏᴄɪᴏɴɪᴄs
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    What's your confirmation bias?

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