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Thread: Your typing of forum members

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    solololol

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    @vesstheastralsilky
    In that message you've said that do not want to hear opinions of others about types of people near you. So you do not seek the truth about their types. While you are on the typology forum and lie to yourself that has an interest in the truth about types. If you lie even to yourself, then it's doubtful your opinions are meaningful for others.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    IQ over 150 vesstheastralsilky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    @vesstheastralsilky
    In that message you've said that do not want to hear opinions of others about types of people near you. So you do not seek the truth about their types. While you are on the typology forum and lie to yourself that has an interest in the truth about types. If you lie even to yourself, then it's doubtful your opinions are meaningful for others.
    I don't know how you started on this creative "lying" kick but you can stop taking your issues out on other forum members. Of course I am serious about the truth of types. Why else would I be here?

    Please don't fight with me Sol.
    Last edited by vesstheastralsilky; 12-04-2018 at 11:15 PM.
    ~* astralsilky



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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    I don't know how you started on this creative "lying" kick but you can stop taking your issues out on other forum members. Of course I am serious about the truth of types. Why else would I be here?
    Just imagine that you are talking to some cult preacher about One True Way To Type with all the shady robes and everything while reading his posts, as that's honestly how he comes off to me. That's the level to take him seriously, though that whole "you sinners who does not know The Way" thing honestly is something to get under check, including the name calling.





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    Quote Originally Posted by Venus Rose View Post
    To me respecting someone’s wishes is the bottom line. You do not drag it out (whatever conflict or conversation you are having) if the other person clearly doesn’t wish to be a part of it. Specially when it comes to types and self-types, you do not disrespectfully keep publicly typing them, insulting their wishes and not giving basic respect to them as a human being. I have seen it happen more than I would like.
    Yea god forbid to get typed in a "your typing of forum members" thread on a socionics forum.

    We should all ban Sol for using socionics

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    How do we claim a theory to be objective? According to the Cambridge dictionary, something that is objective is "based on real facts and not influenced by personal beliefs or feelings". Then the question becomes, what is a fact? Consulting the same dictionary once again, we have that a fact is something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information. Proof of a statement can come from two places: a logical argument built upon firm axioms or empirical, reproducible testing that controls for alternative possibilities. Socionics does neither of these. Firstly, there are multiple bases - model A, model G, Reinin, etc. Secondly, the means of typing is not settled - should we type via IR, IE, VI, high level descriptions, profiles...? Thirdly, the theory is not derived from an empirical model of facts but rather the theory itself is constructed from (inconsistent) principles, meaning that any empirical evidence in support of it would be as good as confirmation bias. Fourthly, any rigour being developed in the theory would be futile since the theory is already so detailed; hence, should we try to create a logically consistent model, we would have to break a number of the systems already put in place such as the subtype system or the descriptions of the functions, not that these are firm to begin with. Fifthly, a theory is only as useful as the people who use it. Thus, even if the model were completely logically consistent, there would still be an interpretation of the system for each person who used it, rendering the system useless for precise modelling.

    Because of all this, the only use that socionics has is as a database of patterns and trends that people have observed. They are high-level enough to where general archetypes of thought categorization exist but also not so general so as to be personally useless in developing skills you are not good at. Fighting about who is what type is pointless since each person has an interpretation of the system anyway. And unless it strays so radically far from the norm, no one can say it's incorrect since the foundation is shaky nevertheless. I would like to say that there is a "correct" way of viewing the system, but I can't. What I can say, however, is that if we can all come to a consensus with our different interpretations, then we all gain something both in socionics and in personal understanding of other people. That's the only useful thing about socionics.

    That's just my two cents. Feel free to disagree.
    Last edited by FarDraft; 12-05-2018 at 05:04 AM.
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    How do we claim a theory to be objective? According to the Cambridge dictionary, something that is objective is "based on real facts and not influenced by personal beliefs or feelings". Then the question becomes, what is a fact? Consulting the same dictionary once again, we have that a fact is something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information. Proof of a statement can come from two places: a logical argument built upon firm axioms or empirical, reproducible testing that controls for alternative possibilities. Socionics does neither of these. Firstly, there are multiple bases - model A, model G, Reinin, etc. Secondly, the means of typing is not settled - should we type via IR, IE, VI, high level descriptions, profiles...? Thirdly, the theory is not derived from an empirical model of facts but rather the theory itself is constructed from (inconsistent) principles, meaning that any empirical evidence in support of it would be as good as confirmation bias. Fourthly, any rigour being developed in the theory would be futile since the theory is already so detailed; hence, should we try to create a logically consistent model, we would have to break a number of the systems already put in place such as the subtype system or the descriptions of the functions, not that these are firm to begin with. Fifthly, a theory is only as useful as the people who use it. Thus, even if the model were completely logically consistent, there would still be an interpretation of the system for each person who used it, rendering the system useless for precise modelling.

    Because of all this, the only use that socionics has is as a database of patterns and trends that people have observed. They are high-level enough to where general archetypes of thought categorization exist but also not so general so as to be personally useless in developing skills you are not good at. Fighting about who is what type is pointless since each person has an interpretation of the system anyway. And unless it strays so radically far from the norm, no one can say it's incorrect since the foundation is shaky nevertheless. I would like to say that there is a "correct" way of viewing the system, but I can't. What I can say, however, is that if we can all come to a consensus with our different interpretations, then we all gain something both in socionics and in personal understanding of other people. That's the only useful thing about socionics.

    That's just my two cents. Feel free to disagree.
    The phenomenon of types creates so much redundancy that it is possible to learn to see the types, functions etc. There are inner, psychological objects, that are not just a matter of opinion. But it takes time and yes it is challenging.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblades View Post
    stop all this arguing and validate me
    Kate Bush/10, my love for you has skyrocketed thanks to that profile picture.

    Stop all this arguing and validate me x2
    "Lecteur, as-tu quelquefois respiré
    Avec ivresse et lente gourmandise
    Ce grain d'encens qui remplit une église,
    Ou d'un sachet le musc invétéré?


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    Du souvenir cueille la fleur exquise"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feathers View Post
    Kate Bush/10, my love for you has skyrocketed thanks to that profile picture.

    Stop all this arguing and validate me x2
    Yeah shes amazing and I think you're IEI too! Maybe EIE...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    The phenomenon of types creates so much redundancy that it is possible to learn to see the types, functions etc. There are inner, psychological objects, that are not just a matter of opinion. But it takes time and yes it is challenging.
    First, the very fact that there is so much redundancy would lead to the system being inconsistent since the redundant material is established theory. Hence, to cut through it would be to deny aspects of the theory that are already created while simultaneously keeping some aspects based on what you "feel" is correct. Second, even if there are inner psychological objects, who says that they can be modelled by socionics? I won't disagree that it takes and and is challenging to understand people and how they function, but to use that as a justification for an inconsistent theory is equivalent to justifying all of a god's actions because they're "mysterious" and "difficult to understand". If even those who are experts can't agree with established theories, then the theory isn't challenging, it's wrong. Patterns and trends are all that can remain.
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    First, the very fact that there is so much redundancy would lead to the system being inconsistent since the redundant material is established theory. Hence, to cut through it would be to deny aspects of the theory that are already created while simultaneously keeping some aspects based on what you "feel" is correct. Second, even if there are inner psychological objects, who says that they can be modelled by socionics? I won't disagree that it takes and and is challenging to understand people and how they function, but to use that as a justification for an inconsistent theory is equivalent to justifying all of a god's actions because they're "mysterious" and "difficult to understand". If even those who are experts can't agree with established theories, then the theory isn't challenging, it's wrong. Patterns and trends are all that can remain.
    Well I simply meant that things can be checked in many ways. When you learn socionics you might have problems typing yourself by functions alone, but you can also check it by the relationships. You can also check things by how you react to certain functions. It really is a matter of observing this for some years and working and dating alot to really expose yourself to it.

    No-one says that inner psychological things can be modelled by socionics. It is simply a fact that can be checked.

    We rely on psychological observation all the time in everyday life. Some people are better at this than others. If the psyche has regular cognitive patterns that form types, it would make sense that these were discovered at some point by observant people. And what then? Reject it, because it can't be tested in laboratory, or look for yourself and try to see it.

    If you only had Jung, then I could agree on the skepticism, but socionics really gives you ways to test this.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    First, the very fact that there is so much redundancy would lead to the system being inconsistent since the redundant material is established theory. Hence, to cut through it would be to deny aspects of the theory that are already created while simultaneously keeping some aspects based on what you "feel" is correct. Second, even if there are inner psychological objects, who says that they can be modelled by socionics? I won't disagree that it takes and and is challenging to understand people and how they function, but to use that as a justification for an inconsistent theory is equivalent to justifying all of a god's actions because they're "mysterious" and "difficult to understand". If even those who are experts can't agree with established theories, then the theory isn't challenging, it's wrong. Patterns and trends are all that can remain.
    Psychological type is holographic. Meow.

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    Simpler broader traits of sociotypes should have a higher priority on forum typings so that I dunno, people can actually discuss and argue the basics first before throwing out random ass traits that are far more detailed and unused than most people are capable of discussing. There's no point in arguing about types unless you start with dichotomies like I/E, N/S, T/F, P/J. Though if you use visual identification then it's more difficult to talk about lol, so just maybe it would be good to have a separate VI (even if it your official type for the person) type from the basic socionics dichotomy-based type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cicio View Post
    Simpler broader traits of sociotypes should have a higher priority on forum typings so that I dunno, people can actually discuss and argue the basics first before throwing out random ass traits that are far more detailed and unused than most people are capable of discussing. There's no point in arguing about types unless you start with dichotomies like I/E, N/S, T/F, P/J. Though if you use visual identification then it's more difficult to talk about lol, so just maybe it would be good to have a separate VI (even if it your official type for the person) type from the basic socionics dichotomy-based type.
    Part of the issue is that there isn't a clearly delineated purpose of socionics on this forum. Is it meant to be a personality test? A method to determine one's cognition? The connection between behavioural traits and visual identification? It tries to do all three and more yet fails (imo) because the subsystems conflicts with one another and the underlying purpose of the theory is gone.

    Personally, I think that socionics should be about two things: cognition and intertype relations. We define a system of 16 archetypes with particular cognitive preferences and resulting cognitive styles. We then consider, from a purely cognitive perspective, how types would interact based on those preferences. High level behaviours get in the way because of emergent behaviour. I think this should be it's purpose because personality-wise, big 5 is already the standard model. Moreover, it would allow a stronger foundation since Jung's original thoughts were cognitive in nature coupled with some behavioural consequences.

    The other option would be for socionics to be a higher level personality system like MBTI, but its depth would be lost, which would be unfortunate, even if it's not scientifically substantiated.

    EDIT: I should note that by "interact" I mean areas where types would clash and construct from a cognitive perspective. For example, Se bases have Ni DS, so when speaking to an Ni type they may get what they want/need. Rather than a behavioural interaction.
    ----- FarDraft, 2020

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Part of the issue is that there isn't a clearly delineated purpose of socionics on this forum. Is it meant to be a personality test? A method to determine one's cognition? The connection between behavioural traits and visual identification? It tries to do all three and more yet fails (imo) because
    Because the understanding of the typology and related begins with the correct understanding of own type, which is LII, but not ILI like you think. Without this you see regular bs and then seek for bs rationalizations.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    @Sol if you think you're some authority on typology, then why have you not got your type displayed on your profile? What purpose does hiding it serve?
    "My love for Linton is like the foliage in the woods: time will change it, I'm well aware, as winter changes the trees. My love for Heathcliff resembles the eternal rocks beneath: a source of little visible delight, but necessary. Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind"



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    If Socionics was a cult, we wouldn't be so skilled at making valid-sounding arguments showing how others act like fanatics. Those who say that Socionics teaches nothing but falsehood also cannot explain how its adherents always show great ingenuity at managing to be unpalatable to all whenever they converse. Socionics is not a cult.

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    Plenty of petty squabbling and invalidating of others can happen within cults. However, even if Socionics were a full-fledged cult, it would have to be a low-stakes cult, as I’ve pointed out before. No one is asking us to pay for things, to turn against our families, to work for little to no money, to recruit new believers, and the like.

    We have no charismatic leader, living or dead. We’re not being exploited. Brainwashed—I give you that one.
    LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”

    Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”

    LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by golden View Post
    We have no charismatic leader, living or dead. We’re not being exploited. Brainwashed—I give you that one.
    I'm sorry to say this (although I feel nobody should be above criticism): I know I speak for many dozens of people when I say that I find such remarks deeply insulting to the memory of Aušra Augustinavičiūtėčiūtėčiūtėčiūtė, whose name is never far from our lips.

    How dare you insult our leader! Next you'll be saying her teachings were in error!

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    Stratiyevskaya did nothing wrong.
    "Lecteur, as-tu quelquefois respiré
    Avec ivresse et lente gourmandise
    Ce grain d'encens qui remplit une église,
    Ou d'un sachet le musc invétéré?


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    Dans le présent le passé restauré!
    Ainsi l'amant sur un corps adoré
    Du souvenir cueille la fleur exquise"
    Charles Baudelaire


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    Lol socionics isn't a cult. It's just an obsessive hobby.

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    Speaking of leaders. I still have functioning Discord server around which has a channel called "The temple of Gulenko".
    Measuring you right now

    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type

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    Quote Originally Posted by BFGDoomer View Post
    I think i might be SLI. The problem is i'm very good at rationalizing almost every perspective and to create groundworks for every socionics position in relation to the IE/IR. I 'play' certain types to see how they fit and discover modes of thinking that correspond with types. I must have RP'ed almost every type in the socion by now
    Same! Lol! Except I'm not necessarily SLI.

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    I think once you experience true supervision then there is no coming back (and your status is below of supervisor). It comes out from nowhere.
    Measuring you right now

    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    I think once you experience true supervision then there is no coming back (and your status is below of supervisor). It comes out from nowhere.
    I don't think most people know what supervision is. It's often not necessarily constant critique and damage. It's waking up one day to find you've been deceived for a long time and all your shit is already fucked/ruined/gone.

    The good part is that the supervisor often entrusts certain resources to the supervisee, thinking they'll never really come to an understanding of what the supervisor has done to them. The supervisee can then use those resources in a gambit for vengeance.

    The supervisee can have a lot of power over the supervisor. That power is in the id, though. Supervisee can tell supervisor, "You know that DS shit you depend on? Kiss that shit goodbye."

    This is why supervisor eventually gives way to supervisee. The supervisor can hit the superego, but the supervisee can undermine the core of the supervisor's psyche.
    Last edited by Aramas; 12-06-2018 at 10:26 PM.

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    Supervision is an attack from similar kind of person constantly to a PoLR while others might have great difficulties seeing it. It is subtle but it gets you every time.
    Measuring you right now

    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    Supervision is an attack
    it's care, but not attack. the task is to improve, but not to kill

    touchy F types...
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    touchy F types...
    You don't deserve F types

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    There Rose have added arguments for her F type. And more basis to suppose Fe for her.

    I do not understand what F types want from the typology more. To play in types and intrigues or to get the truth and reasonable argumentation to types related.
    I can't even to assign this to Fe types only, with their the lack of interest in objective reality. As I saw the similar from ESI, for example - the strong negative emotions on thinking her other type than she thought herself. F types tend to have too emotional links with own opinions and so react by emotions when those opinions get the opposing. Se valued and Fe valued types - should to have it as more expressed. Also sometimes people choose "comfortable" types for themselves, alike to fit to good IR with someones and to bad IR with others - this play with the reality is more expected from F types too, which easier fool themselves and tend to follow to emotional reasons for opinions.

    The only hope, - F type or not, - after some time the reason and some thinking should lead to adequate reality perceptions, as observations will make noticable more of contradictions with incorrect opinions. Or to stop using of the types theory and rejecting of the typology, in case the reality is chosen to stay below emotions in types related.

    Fe tend to drama. *sigh*

    In her art preferences are _many_ pictures of violence, death, victimish fantasies - much more common for Se valued. Pinterest is from her signature.

    @Venus Rose
    It's not constructive to run away from the reality and such to feel offenced on the truth about it. Your emotions will be better when you'll organise the reality to better way, but not when will keep tring to live in sweet dreams. When people become adults - they understand this more and more, what makes them more responsible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi View Post
    You don't deserve F types
    I was not bad enough in the previous lifes so was given base T.
    Last edited by Sol; 12-28-2018 at 11:05 PM.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    There Rose have added arguments for her F type. And more basis to suppose Fe for her.

    I do not understand what F types want from the typology more. To play in types and intrigues or to get the truth and reasonable argumentation to types related.
    I can't even to assign this to Fe types only, with their the lack of interest in objective reality. As I saw the similar from ESI, for example - the strong negative emotions on thinking her other type than she thought herself. F types tend to have too emotional links with own opinions and so react by emotions when those opinions get the opposing. Se valued and Fe valued types - should to have it as more expressed. Also sometimes people choose "comfortable" types for themselves, alike to fit to good IR with someones and to bad IR with others - this play with the reality is more expected from F types too, which easier fool themselves and tend to follow to emotional reasons for opinions.

    The only hope, - F type or not, - after some time the reason and some thinking should lead to adequate reality perceptions, as observations will make noticable more of contradictions with incorrect opinions. Or to stop using of the types theory and rejecting of the typology, in case the reality is chosen to stay below emotions in types related.

    Fe tend to drama. *sigh*

    @Venus Rose
    It's not constructive to run away from the reality and such to feel offenced on the truth about it. Your emotions will be better when you'll organise the reality to better way, but not when will keep tring to live in sweet dreams. When people become adults - they understand this more and more, what makes them more responsible.



    I was not bad enough in the previous lifes so was given base T.
    When people ask you to stop coming at them with unwanted typing advice and you relentlessly seek them out across the forum anyways, why would they have any reason to stay? Your opinion as a "T type" can be just as biased as others, and I would say more so because of how incredibly set in your ways you are regarding socionics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chakram View Post
    When people ask you to stop coming at them with unwanted typing advice and you relentlessly seek them out across the forum anyways, why would they have any reason to stay? Your opinion as a "T type" can be just as biased as others, and I would say more so because of how incredibly set in your ways you are regarding socionics.
    Correct. Just calling yourself a T-type and writing in a matter of fact manner, doesn't mean you are always correct, or more logical. It doesn't win you the argument.

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    IQ over 150 vesstheastralsilky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chakram View Post
    When people ask you to stop coming at them with unwanted typing advice and you relentlessly seek them out across the forum anyways, why would they have any reason to stay? Your opinion as a "T type" can be just as biased as others, and I would say more so because of how incredibly set in your ways you are regarding socionics.
    Yeah but I think @Sol has been at this longer than the average user and has a LOT of collected data and experiences to share. I can understand where he's coming from in that regard. And it can be very frustrating for an experienced typist to share their views among relative newbies who do not understand how convoluted socionics really is, to come along simple minded and just disregard the hard work and experience of others who ultimately are only trying to help and preserve the integrity of their accumulated knowledge before yet more error creeps in and easily deludes the masses.
    ~* astralsilky



    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    Yeah but I think @Sol has been at this longer than the average user and has a LOT of collected data and experiences to share. I can understand where he's coming from in that regard. And it can be very frustrating for an experienced typist to share their views among relative newbies who do not understand how convoluted socionics really is, to come along simple minded and just disregard the hard work and experience of others who ultimately are only trying to help and preserve the integrity of their accumulated knowledge before yet more error creeps in and easily deludes the masses.
    There’s no way to confirm that those experiences are meaningful, and on the surface most of Sol’s typings are obviously retarded, even ignoring his annoying approach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    There’s no way to confirm that those experiences are meaningful, and on the surface most of Sol’s typings are obviously retarded, even ignoring his annoying approach.
    His ideas on types tend to be more accurate than most here or at least on track and I don't know how long he's been at this but I have been for almost 20 years. Experience is worth something. My typical reaction to a lot of typings on here is that they are thinking too shallow yet and are typing way out in left field. But it is a learning process and everyone needs grace to learn and be willing to consider other views even if not accepting them ultimately.
    ~* astralsilky



    Each essence is a separate glass,
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    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    His ideas on types tend to be more accurate than most here or at least on track and I don't know how long he's been at this but I have been for almost 20 years. Experience is worth something.
    Get back to me when you’ve found one other person on this entire forum, besides Sol himself of course, who agrees with you on that.

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    IQ over 150 vesstheastralsilky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Get back to me when you’ve found one other person on this entire forum, besides Sol himself of course, who agrees with you on that.
    It ultimately doesn't matter who agrees. Truth is not subject to popular opinion to remain truth.
    ~* astralsilky



    Each essence is a separate glass,
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    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    It ultimately doesn't matter who agrees. Truth is not subject to popular opinion to remain truth.
    Yeah it only matters if you think it’s true or not lol.

    So you think his type ideas are better than average. Are you aware that he types me IEI?

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    IQ over 150 vesstheastralsilky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Yeah it only matters if you think it’s true or not lol.

    So you think his type ideas are better than average. Are you aware that he types me IEI?
    Hmmm I did not know but I will be alert to this from here on out in my evaluations. How do you type yourself again?? SLE? Hmm.
    ~* astralsilky



    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    Hmmm I did not know but I will be alert to this from here on out in my evaluations. How do you type yourself again?? SLE? Hmm.
    Yeah just pay attention lol. We all have lots of wonderful *experience* with Sol here... maybe keep an open mind.

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    While we’re on this topic I’ve always typed Sol LSE. I find his typology ideas and general insights to be decent actually but he can’t apply them at all almost when trying to type people over the internet. I ascribe this to horrible theory of mind as a result of Ni polr. That’s probably also why he always insists on seeing videos of people. He’s typed himself correctly (IMO) and decisively though, which is more than many on here can say.

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