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Thread: Your typing of forum members

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Lol. Read James Joyce (EIE). It does jump all over the place (stream of consciousness), but it's still serialized thought and you don't get it unless you follow the stream. It's because the essential mode of thought there is sequential transformation.

    HP cognition is more point-blank and comes in discrete self-contained packets without continuity between parts.
    It's serialized because that's how he distills the points he tries to make. He uses isomorphisms to illustrate general principles between things that seem different at face value, but are not opposites. Analogies connected to prior knowledge.

    If he was EIE (DA), on the other hand, his thoughts would involve complete and total opposites, emerging as an unexpected synthesis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Moderator View Post
    Your thoughts seem very Dialectical Algorithmic.

    Also, since Betas tend to have more of a "punching up" quality, in terms of power dynamics. Which I think you have. In contrast, LIEs "punch down" more because they try to maintain their foothold.
    Interesting, I was always wondering what cognitive style I had. I cannot tell from reading the descriptions and comparing them with some piece of text I wrote in the past - so it really helps to know what people think.

    If you don't mind, could you perhaps explain why my thoughts seem DA to you? Maybe with an example?

    What do you mean by "punching up" vs "punching down"?
    Last edited by Uncle Ave; 10-02-2018 at 09:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avebury View Post
    Interesting, I was always wondering what cognitive style I had. I cannot tell from reading the descriptions and comparing them with some piece of text I wrote in the past - so it really helps to know what people think.

    If you don't mind, could you perhaps give an explain why my thoughts seem DA to you? Maybe with an example?

    What do you mean by "punching up" vs "punching down"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Avebury View Post
    I never knew socionics had an interpretation of history...

    In any case, I agree with @Bertrand that history was never meant to be about just repeating facts in a literal sense, it's about narrative, since history is always written by the victors. That isn't to say the facts in history books are wrong, they aeren't, just that there is more to history than stating facts, it's really about their interpretation.

    So any scientific interpretation of historical events or phases of history will also convey a certain narrative and certain values.

    Again, I repeat: it is those that swear only by science that seem the most influenced by religion and philosophy, especially when it comes to moral or ethical questions...
    I mean, I think it depends on whether you arrived at this conclusion yourself, but I see this kind of thinking a lot with EIEs and ILIs. The way a conclusion drawn from a combination of opposites. Generally, you have a point, then a counterpoint, then you arrive at a new understanding.

    I don't want to go through your post history here or rifle around more than this. I'll just give you another example and see if it sticks. By CS Luis:

    “Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

    Notice the negativism in how he sees the terms used by critics. Like any negativist, he takes a pre-existing system of thought, and rather than building on it, he breaks it down. Then, he builds a new system from the merged parts of the old. Trent Reznor also employs a lot of this kind of thinking, which you can hear in his lyrics. He mentions breaking things down into pieces and reassembling them into systems of greater complexity. He also refers to karmic themes that are built on the same kind of thinking in "Head Like A Hole" and other songs.

    Re: "punching up", well the proof here is fuzzier, but I get the impression that you have libertarian leanings because you dislike excessive/abusive authority. So you have an attitude of resisting preexisting structures of power with your own force, in contrast with gammas, who typically aim to preserve their power. If libertarianism belonged to any quadra, it would probably be Beta, just by virtue of the rebellious "teenage" aspects of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Moderator View Post
    I mean, I think it depends on whether you arrived at this conclusion yourself, but I see this kind of thinking a lot with EIEs and ILIs. The way a conclusion drawn from a combination of opposites. Generally, you have a point, then a counterpoint, then you arrive at a new understanding.

    I don't want to go through your post history here or rifle around more than this. I'll just give you another example and see if it sticks. By CS Luis:

    “Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

    Notice the negativism in how he sees the terms used by critics. Like any negativist, he takes a pre-existing system of thought, and rather than building on it, he breaks it down. Then, he builds a new system from the merged parts of the old. Trent Reznor also employs a lot of this kind of thinking, which you can hear in his lyrics. He mentions breaking things down into pieces and reassembling them into systems of greater complexity. He also refers to karmic themes that are built on the same kind of thinking in "Head Like A Hole" and other songs.

    Re: "punching up", well the proof here is fuzzier, but I get the impression that you have libertarian leanings because you dislike excessive/abusive authority. So you have an attitude of resisting preexisting structures of power with your own force, in contrast with gammas, who typically aim to preserve their power. If libertarianism belonged to any quadra, it would probably be Beta, just by virtue of the rebellious "teenage" aspects of it.
    That's very interesting, thanks!

    Yeah, I did come to that conclusion myself, it's not a line I lifted off something I read lol. It's interesting to have this kind of feedback wrt to my cognitive style.

    I rejected beta and EIE for my type after people analyzed my questionnaire on the socionics section of perC (a couple years ago, yes, there are alot of n00bs on perC but also some people who know their stuff). They said I was clearly democratic. I didn't believe them at first, but Entropic (dunno if anyone knows him) pretty much "proved"(for lack of a better word) to me that the way I view people is not based on their "role" in a group or society. Rather, and this is me saying it, not anyone else - I'm pretty "flexible" when it comes to how I see people, people can belong in one group and do something that contradicts said group and also belong to another group. Note that at first I wasn't convinced of being a democratic type.

    For example, a college teacher sleeping with a student is not likely to bother me (assuming they are both adults and consenting) because that's all there is to it - the "role" of the college professor isn't something I see as sacred. An aristocrat might say it gives a bad image and a "teacher shouldn't do that" even if they are both happy and not breaking any laws. This might not be the best example of what I mean, since it might interfere with the professor's neutrality in grading the student, but if the student is no longer a student - it's a former teacher they had - than I really see nothing wrong with it.

    Another thing I should not is that I'm pretty sure of being valuing, especially since my experience in groups of alphas is general discomfort. Sol doesn't believe me, but I have some experience with groups where the majority of the members, or the more prominent members are alphas and their constant cheeriness gets on my nerves. I am aware that beta is not the same in terms of group of atmosphere, there is less of a focus on being constantly positive.

    Wrt to politics, yes I lean libertarian though I don't see political ideologies as type related in themselves. Here is an excellent post on this topic by Expat. http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...l=1#post542525

    As he says, alpha and beta are more likely to want to replace the system with anew one and thus have a "revolutionary" outlook, gamma/delta are more likely to want to work with existing systems for reform, rather than revolution.

    I don't have a revolutionary outlook on politics, I believe revolution to be something of a last resort, if true oppression comes to be. However, I am aware things would have to come to a truly sorry state before I would even consider such a thing, lol.

    That said, since you think I am DA cognition I am going to seriously consider ILI and even give EIE another look. I'm currently taking Sol's IR test right now, it takes a while but I will post the results when I'm through.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avebury View Post
    That's very interesting, thanks!
    NP.

    Wrt to politics, yes I lean libertarian though I don't see political ideologies as type related in themselves. Here is an excellent post on this topic by Expat. http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...l=1#post542525
    Your politics were the best demonstration of a general feeling of "resistance" I get from you. But yes, I agree that there's no 1:1 relationship between political beliefs and type.

    Re: your attitude about revolution. That's interesting, I learn something new every day.

    I should add that, if this exchange demonstrates anything, it's that you have more mildness than gamma NTs. With them, almost everything takes on businesslike elements, and even casual discussions can seem like an exercise in strategy. They put in quite a bit of effort to cover for their vulnerabilities (it wouldn't surprise me if one jumped on this conversation just to muddy the waters about this), but you seem pretty candid and vulnerable.

    Just my 2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Moderator View Post
    I thought @Bertrand was ESI months ago, but now think IEE.
    Not IEE at all

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aki View Post
    Not IEE at all
    What do you think he is?

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    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Moderator View Post
    It's serialized because that's how he distills the points he tries to make. He uses isomorphisms to illustrate general principles between things that seem different at face value, but are not opposites. Analogies connected to prior knowledge.

    If he was EIE (DA), on the other hand, his thoughts would involve complete and total opposites, emerging as an unexpected synthesis.
    I think you're just mincing words to try to squeeze him into that category lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    I think you're just mincing words to try to squeeze him into that category lol.
    I'm not. Just speaking from experience with LIIs.

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    Why is Bertrand considered to be ethical type? I have seen him being quite rude and impolate around the forum showing lack of emotional intelligence rather than its strength. But maybe that's just my limited experience with him and he has actually showed the softer side of his persona. I'd type him SLI to be honest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Moderator View Post
    What do you think he is?
    IDK, he has changed of type and quadra many types. Intuitive is my guess, but I doubt IEE. He seems to have a predilection for sensors, especially females.

    I've been thinking in two possibilities…

    One is that he could be an intuitive logical type who's bored and trolling while trying to prove himself that he can defend almost any cause and successfully convince an audience (he's studying laws), and for that matter he's using this forum as practice field, in which case I think his provocative attitude to get emotive reactions from outside could fit in the Oldham style disorder for ENTP.

    My second guess (if he's not trolling neither acting that way on purpose but being his true self), is NF mb beta.
    Last edited by Tommy; 10-02-2018 at 07:44 PM.

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    Bert is hard one. Anyways, his style is overflowing more than crystallizing and therefore ego is very unlikely. Although HP cog style LII and SLE might produce similar word salad if they wanted it really badly.

    Not even severely schizophrenic CD cog thinker could pull it out. ILE's and LSI's are very quite terse people when it comes to language. Condensation is usually taken extreme level where it is flowing logic and all the "facts" are stripped out. ILE's might make it lively with little bit of drama (as interactive snippets that takes place in text and not describing it).
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    Thus Spoke Berthustra

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    I think Im a EIE in model G. Aki is right, female sensors are hot (this is almost true by definition for a straight male intuitive, so hopefully its not viewed as weird or crass). in real life im a little different but I try to be honest on the forums, its just a slightly distorted view because of the medium, and its just not just me and the medium, the entire environment is subject to this, so like every other poster feeds into it too. think how strange it is historically to have this virtual forum for interaction where people can say whatever almost without consequence and the central topic is some arcane corner of psychology. im not saying this to make an excuse for any bad behavior of mine, Im saying this to hopefully point out what could be considered bizarre behavior is not that weird if you just look at the context. it may be weird compared to some of the lizard men who frequent this place but then you gotta also compare me to all the banned psychos too. in that light I may be off to one side but its not as extreme as it may seem
    Last edited by Bertrand; 10-02-2018 at 10:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freya View Post
    Why is Bertrand considered to be ethical type? I have seen him being quite rude and impolate around the forum showing lack of emotional intelligence
    cause the logical intelligence he lacks some more

    also his F is not so bad in my Te perception
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    I think Im a EIE in model G. Aki is right, female sensors are hot (this is almost true by definition for a straight male intuitive, so hopefully its not viewed as weird or crass). in real life im a little different but I try to be honest on the forums, its just a slightly distorted view because of the medium, and its just not just me and the medium, the entire environment is subject to this, so like every other poster feeds into it too. think how strange it is historically to have this virtual forum for interaction where people can say whatever almost without consequence and the central topic is some arcane corner of psychology. im not saying this to make an excuse for any bad behavior of mine, Im saying this to hopefully point out what could be considered bizarre behavior is not that weird if you just look at the context. it may be weird compared to some of the lizard men who frequent this place but then you gotta also compare me to all the banned psychos too. in that light I may be off to one side but its not as extreme as it may seem
    I'm not convinced yet, upload a video.

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    you misunderstand, I thought I was helping by giving my 2 cents, but Im not trying to convince anyone, since in any case most people don't subscribe to model G or understand it anyway. I don't expect mass approval from the group and honestly making a video to get their approval feels beneath me and a waste of my time. my counter proposal is people should just learn model G and forget discussing my type in the meanwhile

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    I do think you are EIE, Bertrand. You seem kind of scatterbrained, but also sure of your convictions. Yet you are not entirely unreasonable.

    I actually like reading your posts, but I don't always agree with your conclusions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    you misunderstand, I thought I was helping by giving my 2 cents, but Im not trying to convince anyone, since in any case most people don't subscribe to model G or understand it anyway. I don't expect mass approval from the group and honestly making a video to get their approval feels beneath me and a waste of my time. my counter proposal is people should just learn model G and forget discussing my type in the meanwhile

    I don't care.

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    model G is for winners anyway

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freya View Post
    Why is Bertrand considered to be ethical type? I have seen him being quite rude and impolate around the forum showing lack of emotional intelligence rather than its strength. But maybe that's just my limited experience with him and he has actually showed the softer side of his persona. I'd type him SLI to be honest.
    Being rude doesn't mean someone isn't ethical, or SLI, especially if they are doing it intentionally to get a reaction. SLIs are more so neglectful of emotional impact but they do try to be unobtrusive and not deliberately mess with people as Bertrand does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aki View Post
    IDK, he has changed of type and quadra many types. Intuitive is my guess, but I doubt IEE. He seems to have a predilection for sensors, especially females.

    I've been thinking in two possibilities…

    One is that he could be an intuitive logical type who's bored and trolling while trying to prove himself that he can defend almost any cause and successfully convince an audience (he's studying laws), and for that matter he's using this forum as practice field, in which case I think his provocative attitude to get emotive reactions from outside could fit in the Oldham style disorder for ENTP.

    My second guess (if he's not trolling neither acting that way on purpose but being his true self), is NF mb beta.
    This is one of the more accurate posts I've seen regarding Bertrand's personality...

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Being rude doesn't mean someone isn't ethical, or SLI, especially if they are doing it intentionally to get a reaction. SLIs are more so neglectful of emotional impact but they do try to be unobtrusive and not deliberately mess with people as Bertrand does.



    This is one of the more accurate posts I've seen regarding Bertrand's personality...
    Tbh I've never seen @Bertrand as trying to mess with people deliberately. He seems like he just states what he thinks. If people have a problem with that, that doesn't mean he's trolling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avebury View Post
    It was my self-typing for some time.

    I now think it's wrong, however.

    Why do you suggest it?
    Avebury, you seem like a clear Te/Fi quadra imo.

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    I think I'm EII-Ne. Creative subtype. Or maybe not. Idk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    model G is for winners anyway
    I think secondary ego model [mirage sift] seems more reasonable in terms of social roles but G's energy attributes might be reasonable.
    Measuring you right now

    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Tbh I've never seen @Bertrand as trying to mess with people deliberately. He seems like he just states what he thinks. If people have a problem with that, that doesn't mean he's trolling.
    So he messes with people un-deliberately?

    Maybe he really is just crazy and narcissistic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    So he messes with people un-deliberately?

    Maybe he really is just crazy and narcissistic.
    Doesn't seem like it at all to me. How do you come up with these judgments of him?

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    this is the problem with rejecting socionics its like one can't escape the bubble and is trapped assuming everyone should behave according to this or that overly simplistic norm. you can call that bubble science but it doesn't make the problem go away

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Doesn't seem like it at all to me. How do you come up with these judgments of him?
    If he un-deliberately messes with people, then that's pretty crazy.

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    what can I say I've got an aura and it turns undead

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    what can I say I've got an aura and it turns undead
    Lol! Also, "bubble science"

    RA Wilson called them reality tunnels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    you misunderstand, I thought I was helping by giving my 2 cents, but Im not trying to convince anyone, since in any case most people don't subscribe to model G or understand it anyway. I don't expect mass approval from the group and honestly making a video to get their approval feels beneath me and a waste of my time. my counter proposal is people should just learn model G and forget discussing my type in the meanwhile
    You have a three part style of construction (ethical judgement -> ethical elaboration -> introduce factual information/jargon, or the reverse order). You don't move directly from one premise to the next to the next, but tend to prolong each and have a central theme you return to.

    Compare that to the structure in my response to you, which suggests a binary, if...then style.

    Premise -> reasoning. Premise -> reasoning. Juxtaposition -> reasoning. etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by hag 2 View Post
    the stupidity expressed by people opining on bert's type hurts me. but bert seems to be having fun, so continue
    it seems like hag2 evolved in bert2

    Last edited by Tommy; 10-04-2018 at 03:36 AM.

  36. #2396
    Spermatozoa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aki View Post
    it seems like hag2 evolved in bert2
    Lol. Appropriate here:

    "It is entirely possible to make a claim that is false yet argue with logical coherency for that claim, just as it is possible to make a claim that is true and justify it with various fallacies and poor arguments."



    I always bear the above in mind when engaged in politics...or Socionics.

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    What type does Bertrand think he is? With that many posts, it's probably right by now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    What type does Bertrand think he is? With that many posts, it's probably right by now.
    Doesn't really work like that

  39. #2399
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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    What type does Bertrand think he is? With that many posts, it's probably right by now.
    Ironically self typing attempts often follow the opposite rule: the more information you are exposed to, the less certain you will become, because a lot of what you read will contradict itself.

  40. #2400
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    I think bertie is SEE 3w4

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