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Thread: Your typing of forum members

  1. #161
    a two horned unicorn renegade Heretic 007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    Socionics = Jung + Augustinavichiute - Reinin's traits
    In order to balance your equation it should be: Sol's system of socionics:
    Socionics - Reinin's traits = Jung + Augustinavichiute - Reinin's traits
    Now they cancel each other on both side.
    resulting (as in Sol's system of socionics):
    Socionics = Jung + Augustinavichiute


    Or is it:

    Sol system of socionics = Socionics - Reinin's traits = Jung + Augustinavichiute - Reinin's traits

    Everything in socionics is pure hypothesis.

    Anyways. It is beyond stupidity to claim that everything is set in stone from first formulation since there has been no confirmation that it works. Show me the data. Show me the objective typing process. Until that happens you can only make hypothesis. You have your own right to believe, though.


    Furthermore show me that your subjective typing method is consistent with your subjective interpretation. Sounds like impossible task.
    Last edited by Heretic 007; 01-05-2018 at 10:26 AM.
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  2. #162
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    she's weird. it's not ESI. you know nothing, Troll Snow

    > In case of Adam it is rather clear that he seeks clear rules regarding

    In case of Adam it needs to check his type, beforehand. He sometimes says like F type would do. For example the recent about is it appropriate to tell people own opinion about their type. I'd never said like him, while I'm having base Te like he thinks to have. For me it would just to give them useful opinion from the side, nothing bad - while he seems significantly thinks about their feelings, not just about objective truth and good from it.
    Show me video and i will type
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  3. #163
    a two horned unicorn renegade Heretic 007's Avatar
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    Yeah. We really need Sol's video. I need to set up software sensors to track his every eye movement and body twist. So we can get true LSE benchmark.


    FOR THE SCIENCE!
    @Sol society needs you!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    Everything in socionics is pure hypothesis.
    relax, wannabe-T type dude. the other font does not change the sense

    what I said related to what can be called as Socionics
    if you add something new and use it with the classical part - you create new typology, it's not Socionics already. in other case anything could be called as Socionics. there are clear formal borders and I've described them

    Reinin's traits are not Socionics - it's another typology speculatively linked with Jung's types
    signes of functions - is not Socionics, but another baseless bs from philosopher's towers
    etc

    P.S. check my types examples if you wanna know how types look indeed, the nervous Troll

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Show me video and i will type
    Show me and I'll do same.
    To suspect (and be sure sometimes) a type video is not obligate.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

  5. #165
    fka lungs ashlesha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarper View Post
    The key in your quote is 'reading on matters of personal or professional activity' which is different from just reading things with no practical application. For instance, my SLI friend who never reads, is an expert on horology, because watches are a personal interest to him. Reading for the sake of reading, enneagram might describe it as type 5, but I know of IEIs who read loads, but it's not for any practical purpose, so what I said does not disagree with your Te quote, but is supported by it.
    You're correct. Lots of people of different types read and Te isn't about reading. You demolished my claim that Te is all about reading and Te polrs don't read. Well done.

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    a two horned unicorn renegade Heretic 007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    P.S. check my types examples if you wanna know how types look indeed, the nervous Troll

    On top of everything you also have typist attitude. I don't want to be T type or F type. You effin aristocratic pervert.

    Show me the method/program with reproducibility that prints out the result without subjectivity.
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    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    Yeah. We really need Sol's video. I need to set up software sensors to track his every eye movement and body twist. So we can get true LSE benchmark.


    FOR THE SCIENCE!
    @Sol society needs you!
    Software sensors? Why not software intuitives?!?

    Btw what Talanov about LSE says:


    Predisposed to heavy sports.
    He likes to shoot, hunt, fish, likes martial arts (type of hunter).
    He would prefer traveling to other inhabited planets, rather than traveling through time. !!!
    @Sol do you especially agree with third item in list?

    I as Ni type would prefer traveling time.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    a two horned unicorn renegade Heretic 007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Software sensors? Why not software intuitives?!?
    Yeah... AI will replace us.

    Sol needs implanted AI which could do some sort of abstraction for him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
    I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    You're correct. Lots of people of different types read and Te isn't about reading. You demolished my claim that Te is all about reading and Te polrs don't read. Well done.
    When you put it like that it wasn't my intention and I think it's dishonest of you, I don't care and I won't fight you. Drama.
    Last edited by at sirac son of sirac; 01-05-2018 at 11:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Predisposed to heavy sports. He likes to shoot, hunt, fish, likes martial arts (type of hunter).
    heavy sports needs heavy physical efforts, being Si I prefer comfort and being Te see no sense in having meat more than it's useful in modern world
    fishing is more for I types
    martial arts, hunt - mostly Se-valued
    shoot - I liked to play in some FPS

    > He would prefer traveling to other inhabited planets, rather than traveling through time. !!!

    I need to try both to compare. I'm not sure.

    > Btw what Talanov about LSE says

    I suspect Talanov described a couple of dudes he thinks as LSE and have forgotten about the theory. Heavy sports... lol
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Software sensors? Why not software intuitives?!?

    Btw what Talanov about LSE says:


    Predisposed to heavy sports.
    He likes to shoot, hunt, fish, likes martial arts (type of hunter).
    He would prefer traveling to other inhabited planets, rather than traveling through time. !!!
    @Sol do you especially agree with third item in list?

    I as Ni type would prefer traveling time.

    Lol. I’d give a lot for a time machine.

  12. #172
    a two horned unicorn renegade Heretic 007's Avatar
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    In Talanov's list there were interesting things that would be interesting to do. That bard thing very interesting and good music.


    I can't see myself as LII based on Talanov's list.
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
    I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member.


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  13. #173
    aka Feathers, Penny Dreadful Baboooshka's Avatar
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    What if i preffer dimension traveling? Does that make me a Ne ego since I want to explore multiple facets of reality? ;o

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    shoot - I liked to play in some FPS
    Cyka blyat rush B

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    Quote Originally Posted by Penny Dreadful View Post
    What if i preffer dimension traveling? Does that make me a Ne ego since I want to explore multiple facets of reality? ;o
    It makes u a junkie

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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    It makes u a junkie
    The only drugs I ever laid my hands on in my entire life are caffeine and Typology, and I'm not even sure about the former...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    Cyka blyat rush B
    "suka" (bitch) "blyad" (whore). that is correctly

    what is "rush B" don't know

    Quote Originally Posted by Penny Dreadful View Post
    What if i preffer dimension traveling? Does that make me a Ne ego since I want to explore multiple facets of reality?
    Ni region. your type may be different though
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

  18. #178
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    --quotes are reserved for when the language itself is important). otherwise you're going to end up like Aylen posting entire pages of stuff you don't understand making yourself look stupid in the process. in short, you, like her, make a mockery of "objective data" because you can't leverage it in a meaningful, let alone concise, way
    He says after writing enough text on one page to fill novel of nonsense.

    See once again you get it wrong, Don. It is YOU who doesn't understand and can't make sense of the objective information offered to you by others in a way that can be applied to yourself, or others, in a valid way which makes you look stupid when you resort to insults instead of reading and responding intelligently to the concise information or questions presented to you. You are the one going on about winning some kind of cyber slapfights even though you often cause them. I am sure you declare yourself the winner after such incredibly inane comments.

    You just go on Ne and Ti fueled tangents making up an answer as you go along. If you were more ij I would say Ti lead but due to you just following the possibilities of your imagination in the moment I am thinking Ne lead suits you better. Insults from you are your tell that you you are lost and do not know how to respond in the moment. The wall of text I quoted the bit above from is just more of your bs which is mostly mental masturbation in front of an audience because you love the spotlight. If you were more intelligent you might be dangerous but fortunately...


    The ENTp prefers to arrive at everything through his own reason and thoughts. For example, if during an exam, he does not know the proof for some theorem, then he may re-invent the proof again without a problem, using his own approach.
    Ability to reason the ENTp considers to be the most valuable characteristic in both himself and other people. The ILE attributes huge significance to intellectual creativity and development of intellectual abilities. If he is a teacher, he, first of all, considers it his duty to cultivate in his students an ability to reason - else it's unimaginable to him how he will explain anything to them.
    The ENTp has strongly developed associative thinking. Moreover, their associations can be the most unexpected. During its intuitive flight, the thought of ILE can carry him or her away to the most distant, and in no way compatible with each other, spheres.
    Arguments and debate are a type of intellectual entertainment for the ENTp - an opportunity to think, to deliberate, to state his views, attract attention to his ideas and opinions. No other type knows better how to engage and pull someone else into a debate or argument like ILE "Don Quixote". Here he has no equals. The ILE is magnificent at provoking discussions and debates. It is enough for him to think out loud in a populated place, and the rest will be taken care of by the extravagance of his statements, which rarely leaves other people indifferent.
    The ENTp does not always have a goal to impose his opinions and views on his conversation partners no matter the cost (although, he will feel disappointed if he does not succeed in this at least a bit). The ILE often joins an argument not only because the process of discussion gives him pleasure, but also to acquaint "the masses" with his opinions and ideas.
    The ENTp wins debates not only through erudition, but also through his ability to pose the most unexpected counterarguments. Here, too, the ILE has no equals. His logic is so free, so active and flexible that he can drive anyone into a dead-end with his counterarguments, regardless of the level of his own education or the authority and erudition of his opponent. The ILE can prove anything that he wants to or what has occurred to him to prove. He can easily correlate things that nobody else will ever think to correlate. And why not? And who said that they cannot be related and compared? (Sometimes, the less educated the ENTp is, the harder it gets harder to argue with him.)
    For ENTp new ideas emerge suddenly, at the most unexpected moments, in the process of any activity: during a meal, during a conversation, while listening to music, or watching a movie — they emerge as the result of the activity of his subconscious. The ILE can generate ideas even in his sleep. In fact, they can also get worked out there as well. Sometimes upon waking, the ENTp remembers the "starting data" he dreamed about and starts thinking: where did he get it from? through which analogy did this occur? The ENTp takes his "dream work" exceptionally seriously as completely realistic projects.
    The ENTp can develop any, even the most unbelievable, idea into an accurately formulated and logically constructed theory. In fact, on the basis of the facts and assumptions he has, the ILE can already see and figure out the hidden structure, laws, and regularities of this theory.
    The results of ENTp's research activities are often expressed as creation of various logical structures and classifications. Moreover, these structures are not static, but dynamic and flexible, and can easily be modified with emergence of new factors and circumstances.


    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    So we're down to personal insults now?
    He can't help it. He displays signs of Fi polr unlike you and Adam. I think Strat would agree and put him there too if they had to read all his interactions on this forum

    No offense to you but I can clearly see we are not duals. Neither you or Adam are SLE. Bert seems to have a lot of things reversed. It is called Jungian function dyslexia. If anyone is paying attention to him in the last pages of this thread it becomes so painfully obvious that it would be cruel to point out each instance. You are a better person than me just for the patience you show in hearing him out.

    He comes off more Fi polr than most ILE here and SLE do not waste much time on this forum. They pop in and out fast. Bet he even had a smile on his face when he insulted then accused you of wanting to be LIE even when you have expressed genuine interest in how you come off to others. He decides to insult and probably has no idea how to tell you how you come off without including an insult. He is not my dual though so he has to go to alpha which is where he actually belongs and would know it if he would actually read any of the feedback that is given to him. For some reason he thinks it is cooler to be Gamma and make no mistake, he might be self typing EII and sucking up to sol right now but it is all a facade. A game he is playing with everyone.

    If he is having fun that is fine but if he continues to insult people (not just you) he might not like the outcome. I am not talking about myself here. I can handle myself but a lot of people do not want to read this type of garbled information filled with insults when they are here to learn about socionics.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    He says after writing enough text on one page to fill novel of nonsense.

    See once again you get it wrong, Don. It is YOU who doesn't understand and can't make sense of the objective information offered to you by others in a way that can be applied to yourself, or others, in a valid way which makes you look stupid when you resort to insults instead of reading and responding intelligently to the concise information or questions presented to you. You are the one going on about winning some kind of cyber slapfights even though you often cause them. I am sure you declare yourself the winner after such incredibly inane comments.

    You just go on Ne and Ti fueled tangents making up an answer as you go along. If you were more ij I would say Ti lead but due to you just following the possibilities of your imagination in the moment I am thinking Ne lead suits you better. Insults from you are your tell that you you are lost and do not know how to respond in the moment. The wall of text I quoted the bit above from is just more of your bs which is mostly mental masturbation in front of an audience because you love the spotlight. If you were more intelligent you might be dangerous but fortunately...








    He can't help it. He displays signs of Fi polr unlike you and Adam. I think Strat would agree and put him there too if they had to read all his interactions on this forum

    No offense to you but I can clearly see we are not duals. Neither you or Adam are SLE. Bert seems to have a lot of things reversed. It is called Jungian function dyslexia. If anyone is paying attention to him in the last pages of this thread it becomes so painfully obvious that it would be cruel to point out each instance. You are a better person than me just for the patience you show in hearing him out.

    He comes off more Fi polr than most ILE here and SLE do not waste much time on this forum. They pop in and out fast. Bet he even had a smile on his face when he insulted then accused you of wanting to be LIE even when you have expressed genuine interest in how you come off to others. He decides to insult and probably has no idea how to tell you how you come off without including an insult. He is not my dual though so he has to go to alpha which is where he actually belongs and would know it if he would actually read any of the feedback that is given to him. For some reason he thinks it is cooler to be Gamma and make no mistake, he might be self typing EII and sucking up to sol right now but it is all a facade. A game he is playing with everyone.

    If he is having fun that is fine but if he continues to insult people (not just you) he might not like the outcome. I am not talking about myself here. I can handle myself but a lot of people do not want to read this type of garbled information filled with insults when they are here to learn about socionics.
    Hes not ile. Why are u saying hes illogical and resorting to insults then claim hes a logical sociotype lmao

  20. #180
    fka lungs ashlesha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    He can't help it. He displays signs of Fi polr unlike you and Adam.
    it was wrong to attribute "bullish behavior" to SLE but Bertrand is Fi polr because he insults people?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    it was wrong to attribute "bullish behavior" to SLE but Bertrand is Fi polr because he insults people?
    Obviously not

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    it was wrong to attribute "bullish behavior" to SLE but Bertrand is Fi polr because he insults people?
    It is a pattern I have put together over the months. The work involved to show my work would not be worth the reward, sts. How he responds to people is familiar to me and comes off Fi polr. Not the insults (lots of people insult others) the over all vibe of it. I don't see it in my EII sister or uncle. I am not saying I am right but alpha NT seems to be his type. I have already pointed out some things in his video thread so I am not going to go over it all here.

    I do not claim to know anyone's type 100%.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



  23. #183
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    Hes not ile. Why are u saying hes illogical and resorting to insults then claim hes a logical sociotype lmao
    Have you read the ILE description? I mean you typed ILI with weak Se for months and now you are LSI. Anything is possible. This is not an exact science obviously and I just explained that I think he is alpha NT. He seems an irrational, static type to me who uses both Ti and Ne.

    Edit: Fi polr in an ILE comes off much different than Fi polr in an SLE. That is why I asked if you read.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



  24. #184
    a two horned unicorn renegade Heretic 007's Avatar
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    Probs kind of PoLR .

    When T bases get their butt-hurt it shows as emotional and/or dramatic outpourings that are out of proportions also insisting that their judgment is right.

    I checked few times Ben Vaserlan's channel and he makes similar allegations as Bert. This behavior was deemed wrong/naughty etc when he never thought about alternatives behind it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
    I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member.


    Due to Fi PoLR do not send PM's, please. 50/50 likelihood to get a reply if I'm going to even read your messages. Let's keep things public.

  25. #185
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    Probs kind of PoLR .

    When T bases get their butthurt it shows as emotional and/or dramatic outpourings that are out of proportions.
    I am not against LII which seems to be the general consensus in the grapevine. I am curious though. Do you even relate to Strats' take on ILE especially the polr? I think that is your type so not trying to retype you. She seems to favor them a bit more than other types in her descriptions.
    @Sol why you type Troll my identical? How are we similar at all? I mean cognitively speaking. I know our behavior is probably not similar at all.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



  26. #186
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    Im pretty sure Bertrand is a 9 (with a 6 fix) that’s why he rambles on forever and he does this really subtle drawn out trolling stuff. And many people here catch the bait which is what he wants. A lot of 9s I know love to play with fire like that and only 9s have the ability to fool so many and be so subtle about it lol. 9 and 6 are probably the types that troll the most, 7 to an extent but a 7 just does it for the fun of it not thinking much of the outcome whereas the 6 for provoking people and they think about what the reaction will be like. And for “being naughty” (exciting for 6). I don’t think he’s an extrovert cause he’s obviously really shy in his videos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I am not against LII which seems to be the general consensus in the grapevine. I am curious though. Do you even relate to Strats' take on ILE especially the polr? I think that is your type so not trying to retype you. She seems to favor them a bit more than other types in her descriptions.
    @Sol why you type Troll my identical? How are we similar at all? I mean cognitively speaking. I know our behavior is probably not similar at all.

    I have checked few times Ben Vaserlan's channel and he makes similar allegations as Bert. This behavior was deemed wrong/naughty etc when he never thought about alternatives behind it.


    examples:
    He didn't credit her. He is PoLR.
    He made some harassments towards women. He is PoLR.


    It is true that LII's are susceptible to this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
    I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member.


    Due to Fi PoLR do not send PM's, please. 50/50 likelihood to get a reply if I'm going to even read your messages. Let's keep things public.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    I have checked few times Ben Vaserlan's channel and he makes similar allegations as Bert. This behavior was deemed wrong/naughty etc when he never thought about alternatives behind it.
    Ah, I know who he is but I don't watch many of his videos. The one I remember clearly is the one @Olimpia was in in but I probably only listened to her and the other dude more than Ben.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    He says after writing enough text on one page to fill novel of nonsense.

    See once again you get it wrong, Don. It is YOU who doesn't understand and can't make sense of the objective information offered to you by others in a way that can be applied to yourself, or others, in a valid way which makes you look stupid when you resort to insults instead of reading and responding intelligently to the concise information or questions presented to you. You are the one going on about winning some kind of cyber slapfights even though you often cause them. I am sure you declare yourself the winner after such incredibly inane comments.

    You just go on Ne and Ti fueled tangents making up an answer as you go along. If you were more ij I would say Ti lead but due to you just following the possibilities of your imagination in the moment I am thinking Ne lead suits you better. Insults from you are your tell that you you are lost and do not know how to respond in the moment. The wall of text I quoted the bit above from is just more of your bs which is mostly mental masturbation in front of an audience because you love the spotlight. If you were more intelligent you might be dangerous but fortunately...








    He can't help it. He displays signs of Fi polr unlike you and Adam. I think Strat would agree and put him there too if they had to read all his interactions on this forum

    No offense to you but I can clearly see we are not duals. Neither you or Adam are SLE. Bert seems to have a lot of things reversed. It is called Jungian function dyslexia. If anyone is paying attention to him in the last pages of this thread it becomes so painfully obvious that it would be cruel to point out each instance. You are a better person than me just for the patience you show in hearing him out.

    He comes off more Fi polr than most ILE here and SLE do not waste much time on this forum. They pop in and out fast. Bet he even had a smile on his face when he insulted then accused you of wanting to be LIE even when you have expressed genuine interest in how you come off to others. He decides to insult and probably has no idea how to tell you how you come off without including an insult. He is not my dual though so he has to go to alpha which is where he actually belongs and would know it if he would actually read any of the feedback that is given to him. For some reason he thinks it is cooler to be Gamma and make no mistake, he might be self typing EII and sucking up to sol right now but it is all a facade. A game he is playing with everyone.

    If he is having fun that is fine but if he continues to insult people (not just you) he might not like the outcome. I am not talking about myself here. I can handle myself but a lot of people do not want to read this type of garbled information filled with insults when they are here to learn about socionics.
    The ILEs I know are actually more like Troll 007. Maybe I was just lucky...

    Sure I am no SLE, that was my argument with Betrand, my life skills for better or worse do not align at all with what you would expect from a SLE.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    as far as I can tell, the feeling of being trolled is just being hit on your unconscious functions (or perhaps operating in the realm of exceptions when someone is stuck on norms, etc), its not intentional I assure you

    I try to always say exactly what I mean, of course no ones perfect but I don't knowingly try to hide the ball, so to speak

    I'm sure there's at least some people that find me straightforward enough and relatively easy to understand (even if they disagree--they don't find me to be disingenuous or surreptitious, so to speak), despite the complex subject matter we frequently engage in. those people probably have similar quadral values or some kind of functional basis for clearer communication

    also, I think the problem is people try to "battle type" me as if its fair comeuppance because they think that's what I do, when its never my motive so to turn around and do it in return but as a conscious objective is to fundamentally get off on the wrong foot, its why there's not really a lot to say to all this maybe ILE maybe LII talk. its all centered around one or two recent events, without a lot of long term pattern recognition going into it, thats precisely where a lot of battle typing goes off the rails, it gets too bound up in current conflicts. if it has an application it uses the long term pattern to resolve the short term conflict by explaining it, not try to "force" a long term pattern attribution in order to resolve a short term conflict. that is the fundamental mistake I see people making
    Last edited by Bertrand; 01-05-2018 at 06:26 PM.

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    Maybe I'm naive but I do think it's weird when people say Bertrand is trolling. He seems more sincere than the average person to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Have you read the ILE description? I mean you typed ILI with weak Se for months and now you are LSI. Anything is possible. This is not an exact science obviously and I just explained that I think he is alpha NT. He seems an irrational, static type to me who uses both Ti and Ne.

    Edit: Fi polr in an ILE comes off much different than Fi polr in an SLE. That is why I asked if you read.
    Bertrand shows clear likes and dislikes of people. Hes clearly a judgmental person and condems certain behaviours he deems unworthy and abominable.
    This is not fi polr.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    why you type Troll my identical?
    I suspect him as more F than T. More N than S. So most thoughts are about one of F-N, excluding my holly EII, certainly.
    Probabilities of the 3 rest F-N are close. I don't insist on IEI. If you perceive his talking style as alien this adds points to IEE, which is also the closest compromise with his opinion.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    Bertrand shows clear likes and dislikes of people. Hes clearly a judgmental person and condems certain behaviours he deems unworthy and abominable.
    This is not fi polr.
    Like/dislike is a human thing. You would be hard pressed to find one person who does not express some form of like/dislike here. Most self typed Fi leads here are not even this outwardly judgmental and keep stuff to themselves. He just spews it in a way I do not relate to the ethical types.

    A lot of people are showing clear likes and dislikes of others on this forum and yes SLE do it too. They can be judgmental too. My mom is LSI and you will know if she likes or dislikes something. I know you are in the ESI camp though. It is fine.


    From Carl Jung's Psychological Types
    (Under: The Peculiarities of the Basic Psychological Functions in the Introverted Attitude)

    Feeling

    Introverted feeling is determined principally by the subjective factor. It differs quite as essentially from extroverted feeling as introverted from extroverted thinking. It is extremely difficult to give an intellectual account of the introverted feeling process, or even an approximate description of it, although the peculiar nature of this kind of feeling is very noticeable once one has become aware of it.

    Since it is conditioned subjectively and is only secondarily concerned with the object, it seldom appears on the surface and is generally misunderstood. It is a feeling which seems to devalue the object, and it therefore manifests itself for the most part negatively. The existence of positive feeling can be inferred only indirectly. Its aim is not to adjust itself to the object, but to subordinate it in an unconscious effort to realize the underlying images.

    It is continually seeking an image which has no existence in reality, but which it has seen in a kind of vision. It glides unheedingly over all objects that do not fit with its aim. It strives after inner intensity, for which the objects serve at most as stimulus.

    The depth of this feeling can only be guessed - it can never be clearly grasped. It makes people silent and difficult of access; it shrinks back like a violet from the brute nature of the object in order to fill the depths of the subject. It comes out with negative judgments or assumes an air of profound indifference as a means of defense.

    The primordial images are, of course, just as much ideas as feelings. Fundamental ideas, ideas like God, freedom, and immortality, are just as much feeling-values as they are significant ideas. Everything, therefore, that we have said about introverted thinking is equally true of introverted feeling, only here everything is felt while there it was thought.

    However, the very fact that thoughts can generally be expressed more intelligibly than feelings demands a more than ordinary descriptive or artistic ability before the real wealth of this feeling can be even approximately presented or communicated to the world. If subjective thinking can be understood only with difficulty because of its detachment, this is true in an even higher degree of subjective feeling. In order to communicate with others, introverted feeling has to find an external form not only acceptable to itself, but capable of also arousing parallel feeling in them. Thanks to the relatively great inner (as well as outer) uniformity of human beings, it is actually possible to do this, though the form acceptable to feeling is extraordinarily difficult to find so long as it is still mainly oriented to the fathomless store of primordial images.

    If, however, feeling is falsified by an egocentric attitude, it at once becomes unsympathetic, because it is then concerned mainly with the ego. It inevitably creates the impression of sentimental self-love, of trying to make itself interesting, even of morbid self admiration. Just as the subjectivized conscious of the introverted thinker, striving after abstraction to the nth degree, only succeeds in intensifying a thought process that is in itself empty, the intensification of egocentric feeling only leads to inane transports of feeling for their own sake. This is the mystical, ecstatic stage which opens the way for the extroverted functions that feeling has repressed. Just as introverted thinking is counterbalanced by a primitive feeling, to which objects attach themselves by a magical force, introverted feeling is counterbalanced by a primitive thinking, whose concretism and slavery to facts surpass all bounds. Feeling progressively emancipates itself from the object and creates for itself a freedom of action and conscience that is purely subjective, and may even renounce all traditional values. But so much more so does the unconscious thinking fall a victim to the power of objective reality.


    The Introverted Feeling Type

    It is principally among women that I have found the predominance of introverted feeling. 'Still waters run deep' is very true of such women. They are mostly silent, inaccessible, and hard to understand; often they hide behind a childish or banal mask, and their temperament is inclined to melancholy. They neither shine nor reveal themselves. As they are mainly guided by their subjective feelings, their true motives generally remain hidden. Their outward demeanor is harmonious and inconspicuous, giving an impression of pleasing repose, or of sympathetic response, with no desire to affect others, to impress, influence, or change them in any way.

    If this outward aspect is more pronounced, it arouses a suspicion of indifference and coldness, which may actually turn into a disregard for the comfort and well-being of others. One is distinctly aware then of the movement of feeling away from the object. With the normal type, however, this happens only when the influence of the object is too strong. The feeling of harmony, therefore, lasts only so long as the object goes its own moderate way and makes no attempt to cross the other's path. There is little effort to respond to the real emotions of the other person, which tend to be damped and rebuffed, or to put it more aptly, are 'cooled off' by a negative value judgment. Although there is a constant readiness for a peaceful and harmonious co-existence, strangers are shown no touch of amiability, no gleam of responding warmth, but are met with apparent indifference or a repelling coldness. Often they are made to feel entirely superfluousness.

    Faced with anything that might carry her away or arouse enthusiasm, this type observes a benevolent though critical neutrality, coupled with a faint trace of superiority that soon takes the wind out of the sails of a sensitive person. Any stormy emotion, however, will be struck down with murderous coldness, unless it happens to catch the woman on her unconscious side - that is, unless it hits her feelings by arousing a primordial image. In that case, she simply feels paralyzed for the moment, and this in due course invariably produces an even more obstinate resistance which will hit the other person in his most vulnerable spot. As far as possible, the relation of feeling to the object is kept to the safe middle path, where passion and its intemperateness are resolutely tabooed. Expression of feeling, therefore, remains niggardly, and the other person has a permanent sense of being undervalued once he becomes conscious of it. Such, however, is not always the case, because very he remains unconscious of the lack of feeling shown to him, in which case the unconscious demands of feeling will produce symptoms designed to compel a more serious attention.

    Since this type appears rather cold and reserved, it might seem on a superficial view that such women have no feelings at all. Such a view, however, would be quite false; the truth is, their feelings are intensive rather than extensive. They develop in depth. While an extensive feeling of sympathy can express itself in appropriate words and deeds, and thus quickly gets back to normal again, an intensive sympathy, being shut off from every means of expression, gains a passionate depth that comprises a whole world of misery and is simply benumbed. It may, perhaps, break out in some extravagant form, leading to some astounding act of an almost heroic character, quite unrelated to either the subject herself or to the object that provoked the outburst. To the outside world, or to the blind eyes of the extravert, this intensive sympathy looks like coldness, because it usually does nothing visible, and an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.

    Such a misunderstanding is a common occurrence in the life of this type, and is used as a weighty argument against the possibility of any deeper feeling relation with the object. But the underlying, real object of this feeling is only dimly divined by the normal type herself. It may express itself in a secret religiosity anxiously shielded from profane eyes, or in intimate poetic forms that are kept equally safeguarded from profane eyes, not without the secret ambition of displaying some superiority over the other person by this means. Women often express a good deal of their feelings their children, letting their passion flow secretly into them.

    Although, in the normal type, the tendency to overpower or coerce the other person with her secret feelings rarely plays a disturbing role, and never leads to a serious attempt of this kind, some trace of it nonetheless seeps through into the personal effect they have on him, in the form of a domineering influence often difficult to define. It is sensed as a sort of stifling or oppressive feeling which holds everybody around her under a spell. It gives a woman of this type a mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

    [From here on, it mostly discusses neurosis, not the normal type]

    This power is derived from the deeply felt, unconscious images, but consciously she is apt to relate it to the ego, whereupon her influence becomes debased into personal tyranny. Whenever the unconscious subject is identified with the ego, the mysterious power of intensive feeling turns into a banal and arrogant desire to dominate, a vanity, and a petty bossiness. This produces a type of woman most regrettably distinguished by her unscrupulous ambition and mischievous cruelty. But it is a change, however, that also leads to neurosis.

    So long as the ego feels subordinate to the unconscious subject, and feeling is aware of something higher and mightier than the ego, the type is normal. Although the unconscious thinking is archaic, its reductive tendencies help to compensate the occasional inclination to exalt the ego into the subject. If this does take place as a result of complete suppression of the counterbalancing subliminal processes, the unconscious thinking goes over into open opposition and gets projected onto objects. The now egocentric subject comes to feel the power and importance of the devalued object. She begins consciously to feel 'what other people think'. Naturally, other people are thinking all sorts of mean things, scheming evil, contriving plots, secrecy intrigues, etc. To prevent this, she must carry out counter-intrigues, to suspect and sound out others, and weave counter plots. Beset by rumors, she must make frantic efforts to convert a threatened inferiority into a superiority. Endless secret rivalries develop, and in these embittered struggles she will shrink from no baseness or evil means, but even virtues will be misused and tampered with in order to play the trump card. Such a development must end in exhaustion. The form of neurosis is neurasthenic rather than hysterical, often with severe physical complications, such as anemia and sequelae.




    (III) PECULIARITIES OF THE BASIC PSYCHOLOGICAL FUNCTIONS IN THE INTROVERTED ATTITUDE

    1. Thinking

    When describing extraverted thinking, I gave a brief characterization of introverted thinking, to which at this stage I must make further reference. Introverted thinking is primarily orientated by the subjective factor. At the least, this subjective factor is represented by a subjective feeling of direction, which, in the last resort, determines judgment. Occasionally, it is a more or less finished image, which to some extent, serves as a standard. This thinking may be conceived either with concrete or with abstract factors, but always at the decisive points it is orientated by subjective data. Hence, it does not lead from concrete experience back again into objective things, but always to the subjective content, External facts are not the aim and origin of this thinking, although the introvert would often like to make it so appear. It begins in the subject, and returns to the subject, although it may [p. 481] undertake the widest flights into the territory of the real and the actual. Hence, in the statement of new facts, its chief value is indirect, because new views rather than the perception of new facts are its main concern. It formulates questions and creates theories; it opens up prospects and yields insight, but in the presence of facts it exhibits a reserved demeanour. As illustrative examples they have their value, but they must not prevail. Facts are collected as evidence or examples for a theory, but never for their own sake. Should this latter ever occur, it is done only as a compliment to the extraverted style. For this kind of thinking facts are of secondary importance; what, apparently, is of absolutely paramount importance is the development and presentation of the subjective idea, that primordial symbolical image standing more or less darkly before the inner vision. Its aim, therefore, is never concerned with an intellectual reconstruction of concrete actuality, but with the shaping of that dim image into a resplendent idea. Its desire is to reach reality; its goal is to see how external facts fit into, and fulfil, the framework of the idea; its actual creative power is proved by the fact that this thinking can also create that idea which, though not present in the external facts, is yet the most suitable, abstract expression of them. Its task is accomplished when the idea it has fashioned seems to emerge so inevitably from the external facts that they actually prove its validity.


    But just as little as it is given to extraverted thinking to wrest a really sound inductive idea from concrete facts or ever to create new ones, does it lie in the power of introverted thinking to translate its original image into an idea adequately adapted to the facts. For, as in the former case the purely empirical heaping together of facts paralyses thought and smothers their meaning, so in the latter case introverted thinking shows a dangerous tendency [p. 482] to coerce facts into the shape of its image, or by ignoring them altogether, to unfold its phantasy image in freedom. In such a case, it will be impossible for the presented idea to deny its origin from the dim archaic image. There will cling to it a certain mythological character that we are prone to interpret as 'originality', or in more pronounced cases' as mere whimsicality; since its archaic character is not transparent as such to specialists unfamiliar with mythological motives. The subjective force of conviction inherent in such an idea is usually very great; its power too is the more convincing, the less it is influenced by contact with outer facts. Although to the man who advocates the idea, it may well seem that his scanty store of facts were the actual ground and source of the truth and validity of his idea, yet such is not the case, for the idea derives its convincing power from its unconscious archetype, which, as such, has universal validity and everlasting truth. Its truth, however, is so universal and symbolic, that it must first enter into the recognized and recognizable knowledge of the time, before it can become a practical truth of any real value to life. What sort of a causality would it be, for instance, that never became perceptible in practical causes and practical results?


    This thinking easily loses itself in the immense truth of the subjective factor. It creates theories for the sake of theories, apparently with a view to real or at least possible facts, yet always with a distinct tendency to go over from the world of ideas into mere imagery. Accordingly many intuitions of possibilities appear on the scene, none of which however achieve any reality, until finally images are produced which no longer express anything externally real, being 'merely' symbols of the simply unknowable. It is now merely a mystical thinking and quite as unfruitful as that empirical thinking whose sole operation is within the framework of objective facts. [p. 483]


    Whereas the latter sinks to the level of a mere presentation of facts, the former evaporates into a representation of the unknowable, which is even beyond everything that could be expressed in an image. The presentation of facts has a certain incontestable truth, because the subjective factor is excluded and the facts speak for themselves. Similarly, the representing of the unknowable has also an immediate, subjective, and convincing power, because it is demonstrable from its own existence. The former says 'Est, ergo est' ('It is ; therefore it is') ; while the latter says 'Cogito, ergo cogito' (' I think ; therefore I think'). In the last analysis, introverted thinking arrives at the evidence of its own subjective being, while extraverted thinking is driven to the evidence of its complete identity with the objective fact. For, while the extravert really denies himself in his complete dispersion among objects, the introvert, by ridding himself of each and every content, has to content himself with his mere existence. In both cases the further development of life is crowded out of the domain of thought into the region of other psychic functions which had hitherto existed in relative unconsciousness. The extraordinary impoverishment of introverted thinking in relation to objective facts finds compensation in an abundance of unconscious facts. Whenever consciousness, wedded to the function of thought, confines itself within the smallest and emptiest circle possible -- though seeming to contain the plenitude of divinity -- unconscious phantasy becomes proportionately enriched by a multitude of archaically formed facts, a veritable pandemonium of magical and irrational factors, wearing the particular aspect that accords with the nature of that function which shall next relieve the thought-function as the representative of life. If this should be the intuitive function, the 'other side' will be viewed with the eyes of a Kubin or a Meyrink. If it is the feeling-function, [p. 484] there arise quite unheard of and fantastic feeling-relations, coupled with feeling-judgments of a quite contradictory and unintelligible character. If the sensation-function, then the senses discover some new and never-before-experienced possibility, both within and without the body. A closer investigation of such changes can easily demonstrate the reappearance of primitive psychology with all its characteristic features. Naturally, the thing experienced is not merely primitive but also symbolic; in fact, the older and more primeval it appears, the more does it represent the future truth: since everything ancient in our unconscious means the coming possibility.


    Under ordinary circumstances, not even the transition to the 'other side' succeeds -- still less the redeeming journey through the unconscious. The passage across is chiefly prevented by conscious resistance to any subjection of the ego to the unconscious reality and to the determining reality of the unconscious object. The condition is a dissociation-in other words, a neurosis having the character of an inner wastage with increasing brain-exhaustion -- a psychoasthenia, in fact.


    2. The Introverted Thinking Type

    Just as Darwin might possibly represent the normal extraverted thinking type, so we might point to Kant as a counter-example of the normal introverted thinking type. The former speaks with facts; the latter appeals to the subjective factor. Darwin ranges over the wide fields of objective facts, while Kant restricts himself to a critique of knowledge in general. But suppose a Cuvier be contrasted with a Nietzsche: the antithesis becomes even sharper.


    The introverted thinking type is characterized by a priority of the thinking I have just described. Like his [p. 485] extraverted parallel, he is decisively influenced by ideas; these, however, have their origin, not in the objective data but in the subjective foundation. Like the extravert, he too will follow his ideas, but in the reverse direction: inwardly not outwardly. Intensity is his aim, not extensity. In these fundamental characters he differs markedly, indeed quite unmistakably from his extraverted parallel. Like every introverted type, he is almost completely lacking in that which distinguishes his counter type, namely, the intensive relatedness to the object. In the case of a human object, the man has a distinct feeling that he matters only in a negative way,
    i.e., in milder instances he is merely conscious of being superfluous, but with a more extreme type he feels himself warded off as something definitely disturbing. This negative relation to the object-indifference, and even aversion-characterizes every introvert; it also makes a description of the introverted type in general extremely difficult. With him, everything tends to disappear and get concealed. His judgment appears cold, obstinate, arbitrary, and inconsiderate, simply because he is related less to the object than the subject. One can feel nothing in it that might possibly confer a higher value upon the object; it always seems to go beyond the object, leaving behind it a flavour of a certain subjective superiority. Courtesy, amiability, and friendliness may be present, but often with a particular quality suggesting a certain uneasiness, which betrays an ulterior aim, namely, the disarming of an opponent, who must at all costs be pacified and set at ease lest he prove a disturbing- element. In no sense, of course, is he an opponent, but, if at all sensitive, he will feel somewhat repelled, perhaps even depreciated. Invariably the object has to submit to a certain neglect; in worse cases it is even surrounded with quite unnecessary measures of precaution. Thus it happens that this type tends to [p. 486] disappear behind a cloud of misunderstanding, which only thickens the more he attempts to assume, by way of compensation and with the help of his inferior functions, a certain mask of urbanity, which often presents a most vivid contrast to his real nature. Although in the extension of his world of ideas he shrinks from no risk, however daring, and never even considers the possibility that such a world might also be dangerous, revolutionary, heretical, and wounding to feeling, he is none the less a prey to the liveliest anxiety, should it ever chance to become objectively real. That goes against the grain. When the time comes for him to transplant his ideas into the world, his is by no means the air of an anxious mother solicitous for her children's welfare; he merely exposes them, and is often extremely annoyed when they fail to thrive on their own account. The decided lack he usually displays in practical ability, and his aversion from any sort of re[accent]clame assist in this attitude. If to his eyes his product appears subjectively correct and true, it must also be so in practice, and others have simply got to bow to its truth. Hardly ever will he go out of his way to win anyone's appreciation of it, especially if it be anyone of influence. And, when he brings himself to do so, he is usually so extremely maladroit that he merely achieves the opposite of his purpose. In his own special province, there are usually awkward experiences with his colleagues, since he never knows how to win their favour; as a rule he only succeeds in showing them how entirely superfluous they are to him. In the pursuit of his ideas he is generally stubborn, head-strong, and quite unamenable to influence. His suggestibility to personal influences is in strange contrast to this. An object has only to be recognized as apparently innocuous for such a type to become extremely accessible to really inferior elements. They lay hold of him from the [p. 487] unconscious. He lets himself be brutalized and exploited in the most ignominious way, if only he can be left undisturbed in the pursuit of his ideas. He simply does not see when he is being plundered behind his back and wronged in practical ways: this is because his relation to the object is such a secondary matter that lie is left without a guide in the purely objective valuation of his product. In thinking out his problems to the utmost of his ability, he also complicates them, and constantly becomes entangled in every possible scruple. However clear to himself the inner structure of his thoughts may be, he is not in the least clear where and how they link up with the world of reality. Only with difficulty can he persuade himself to admit that what is clear to him may not be equally clear to everyone. His style is usually loaded and complicated by all sorts of accessories, qualifications, saving clauses, doubts, etc., which spring from his exacting scrupulousness. His work goes slowly and with difficulty. Either he is taciturn or he falls among people who cannot understand him; whereupon he proceeds to gather further proof of the unfathomable stupidity of man. If he should ever chance to be understood, he is credulously liable to overestimate. Ambitious women have only to understand how advantage may be taken of his uncritical attitude towards the object to make an easy prey of him; or he may develop into a misanthropic bachelor with a childlike heart. Then, too, his outward appearance is often gauche, as if he were painfully anxious to escape observation; or he may show a remarkable unconcern, an almost childlike naivete. In his own particular field of work he provokes violent contradiction, with which he has no notion how to deal, unless by chance he is seduced by his primitive affects into biting and fruitless polemics. By his wider circle he is counted inconsiderate and domineering. But the [p. 488] better one knows him, the more favourable one's judgment becomes, and his nearest friends are well aware how to value his intimacy. To people who judge him from afar he appears prickly, inaccessible, haughty; frequently he may even seem soured as a result of his anti-social prejudices. He has little influence as a personal teacher, since the mentality of his pupils is strange to him. Besides, teaching has, at bottom, little interest for him, except when it accidentally provides him with a theoretical problem. He is a poor teacher, because while teaching his thought is engaged with the actual material, and will not be satisfied with its mere presentation.

    With the intensification of his type, his convictions become all the more rigid and unbending. Foreign influences are eliminated; he becomes more unsympathetic to his peripheral world, and therefore more dependent upon his intimates. His expression becomes more personal and inconsiderate and his ideas more profound, but they can no longer be adequately expressed in the material at hand. This lack is replaced by emotivity and susceptibility. The foreign influence, brusquely declined from without, reaches him from within, from the side of the unconscious, and he is obliged to collect evidence against it and against things in general which to outsiders seems quite superfluous. Through the subjectification of consciousness occasioned by his defective relationship to the object, what secretly concerns his own
    person now seems to him of chief importance. And he begins to confound his subjective truth with his own person. Not that he will attempt to press anyone personally with his convictions, but he will break out with venomous and personal retorts against every criticism, however just. Thus in every respect his isolation gradually increases. His originally fertilizing ideas become destructive, because poisoned by a kind of sediment of bitterness. His struggle against the influences emanating [p. 489] from the unconscious increases with his external isolation, until gradually this begins to cripple him. A still greater isolation must surely protect him from the unconscious influences, but as a rule this only takes him deeper into the conflict which is destroying him within.

    The thinking of the introverted type is positive and synthetic in the development of those ideas which in ever increasing measure approach the eternal validity of the primordial images. But, when their connection with objective experience begins to fade, they become mythological and untrue for the present situation. Hence this thinking holds value only for its contemporaries, just so long as it also stands in visible and understandable connection with the known facts of the time. But, when thinking becomes mythological, its irrelevancy grows until finally it gets lost in itself. The relatively unconscious functions of feeling, intuition, and sensation, which counterbalance introverted thinking, are inferior in quality and have a primitive, extraverted character, to which all the troublesome objective influences this type is subject to must be ascribed. The various measures of self-defence, the curious protective obstacles with which such people are wont to surround themselves, are sufficiently familiar, and I may, therefore, spare myself a description of them. They all serve as a defence against 'magical' influences; a vague dread of the other sex also belongs to this category.


    [ Web Source: Classics in the History of Psychology -- Jung (1921/1923) Chapter 10 ]


    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    I suspect him as more F than T. More N than S. So most thoughts are about one of F-N, excluding my holly EII, certainly.
    Probabilities of the 3 rest F-N are close. I don't insist on IEI. If you perceive his talking style as alien this adds points to IEE, which is also the closest compromise with his opinion.
    I think there is a similar situation with Troll though that I had with you at first. A bit of a language barrier? I feel I understand you well now but that was not always the case. I do believe people do not give this idea of language differences enough weight when typing others whose first language is different than their own. In my family I have some who didn't learn English in early childhood and the miscommunication/understanding can be a bit funny sometimes. Regardless, I do not think he is IEI.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Like/dislike is a human thing. You would be hard pressed to find one person who does not express some form of like/dislike here. Most self typed Fi leads here are not even this outwardly judgmental and keep stuff to themselves. He just spews it in a way I do not relate to the ethical types.

    A lot of people are showing clear likes and dislikes of others on this forum and yes SLE do it too. They can be judgmental too. My mom is LSI and you will know if she likes or dislikes something. I know you are in the ESI camp though. It is fine.


    From Carl Jung's Psychological Types
    (Under: The Peculiarities of the Basic Psychological Functions in the Introverted Attitude)

    Feeling

    Introverted feeling is determined principally by the subjective factor. It differs quite as essentially from extroverted feeling as introverted from extroverted thinking. It is extremely difficult to give an intellectual account of the introverted feeling process, or even an approximate description of it, although the peculiar nature of this kind of feeling is very noticeable once one has become aware of it.

    Since it is conditioned subjectively and is only secondarily concerned with the object, it seldom appears on the surface and is generally misunderstood. It is a feeling which seems to devalue the object, and it therefore manifests itself for the most part negatively. The existence of positive feeling can be inferred only indirectly. Its aim is not to adjust itself to the object, but to subordinate it in an unconscious effort to realize the underlying images.

    It is continually seeking an image which has no existence in reality, but which it has seen in a kind of vision. It glides unheedingly over all objects that do not fit with its aim. It strives after inner intensity, for which the objects serve at most as stimulus.

    The depth of this feeling can only be guessed - it can never be clearly grasped. It makes people silent and difficult of access; it shrinks back like a violet from the brute nature of the object in order to fill the depths of the subject. It comes out with negative judgments or assumes an air of profound indifference as a means of defense.

    The primordial images are, of course, just as much ideas as feelings. Fundamental ideas, ideas like God, freedom, and immortality, are just as much feeling-values as they are significant ideas. Everything, therefore, that we have said about introverted thinking is equally true of introverted feeling, only here everything is felt while there it was thought.

    However, the very fact that thoughts can generally be expressed more intelligibly than feelings demands a more than ordinary descriptive or artistic ability before the real wealth of this feeling can be even approximately presented or communicated to the world. If subjective thinking can be understood only with difficulty because of its detachment, this is true in an even higher degree of subjective feeling. In order to communicate with others, introverted feeling has to find an external form not only acceptable to itself, but capable of also arousing parallel feeling in them. Thanks to the relatively great inner (as well as outer) uniformity of human beings, it is actually possible to do this, though the form acceptable to feeling is extraordinarily difficult to find so long as it is still mainly oriented to the fathomless store of primordial images.

    If, however, feeling is falsified by an egocentric attitude, it at once becomes unsympathetic, because it is then concerned mainly with the ego. It inevitably creates the impression of sentimental self-love, of trying to make itself interesting, even of morbid self admiration. Just as the subjectivized conscious of the introverted thinker, striving after abstraction to the nth degree, only succeeds in intensifying a thought process that is in itself empty, the intensification of egocentric feeling only leads to inane transports of feeling for their own sake. This is the mystical, ecstatic stage which opens the way for the extroverted functions that feeling has repressed. Just as introverted thinking is counterbalanced by a primitive feeling, to which objects attach themselves by a magical force, introverted feeling is counterbalanced by a primitive thinking, whose concretism and slavery to facts surpass all bounds. Feeling progressively emancipates itself from the object and creates for itself a freedom of action and conscience that is purely subjective, and may even renounce all traditional values. But so much more so does the unconscious thinking fall a victim to the power of objective reality.


    The Introverted Feeling Type

    It is principally among women that I have found the predominance of introverted feeling. 'Still waters run deep' is very true of such women. They are mostly silent, inaccessible, and hard to understand; often they hide behind a childish or banal mask, and their temperament is inclined to melancholy. They neither shine nor reveal themselves. As they are mainly guided by their subjective feelings, their true motives generally remain hidden. Their outward demeanor is harmonious and inconspicuous, giving an impression of pleasing repose, or of sympathetic response, with no desire to affect others, to impress, influence, or change them in any way.

    If this outward aspect is more pronounced, it arouses a suspicion of indifference and coldness, which may actually turn into a disregard for the comfort and well-being of others. One is distinctly aware then of the movement of feeling away from the object. With the normal type, however, this happens only when the influence of the object is too strong. The feeling of harmony, therefore, lasts only so long as the object goes its own moderate way and makes no attempt to cross the other's path. There is little effort to respond to the real emotions of the other person, which tend to be damped and rebuffed, or to put it more aptly, are 'cooled off' by a negative value judgment. Although there is a constant readiness for a peaceful and harmonious co-existence, strangers are shown no touch of amiability, no gleam of responding warmth, but are met with apparent indifference or a repelling coldness. Often they are made to feel entirely superfluousness.

    Faced with anything that might carry her away or arouse enthusiasm, this type observes a benevolent though critical neutrality, coupled with a faint trace of superiority that soon takes the wind out of the sails of a sensitive person. Any stormy emotion, however, will be struck down with murderous coldness, unless it happens to catch the woman on her unconscious side - that is, unless it hits her feelings by arousing a primordial image. In that case, she simply feels paralyzed for the moment, and this in due course invariably produces an even more obstinate resistance which will hit the other person in his most vulnerable spot. As far as possible, the relation of feeling to the object is kept to the safe middle path, where passion and its intemperateness are resolutely tabooed. Expression of feeling, therefore, remains niggardly, and the other person has a permanent sense of being undervalued once he becomes conscious of it. Such, however, is not always the case, because very he remains unconscious of the lack of feeling shown to him, in which case the unconscious demands of feeling will produce symptoms designed to compel a more serious attention.

    Since this type appears rather cold and reserved, it might seem on a superficial view that such women have no feelings at all. Such a view, however, would be quite false; the truth is, their feelings are intensive rather than extensive. They develop in depth. While an extensive feeling of sympathy can express itself in appropriate words and deeds, and thus quickly gets back to normal again, an intensive sympathy, being shut off from every means of expression, gains a passionate depth that comprises a whole world of misery and is simply benumbed. It may, perhaps, break out in some extravagant form, leading to some astounding act of an almost heroic character, quite unrelated to either the subject herself or to the object that provoked the outburst. To the outside world, or to the blind eyes of the extravert, this intensive sympathy looks like coldness, because it usually does nothing visible, and an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.

    Such a misunderstanding is a common occurrence in the life of this type, and is used as a weighty argument against the possibility of any deeper feeling relation with the object. But the underlying, real object of this feeling is only dimly divined by the normal type herself. It may express itself in a secret religiosity anxiously shielded from profane eyes, or in intimate poetic forms that are kept equally safeguarded from profane eyes, not without the secret ambition of displaying some superiority over the other person by this means. Women often express a good deal of their feelings their children, letting their passion flow secretly into them.

    Although, in the normal type, the tendency to overpower or coerce the other person with her secret feelings rarely plays a disturbing role, and never leads to a serious attempt of this kind, some trace of it nonetheless seeps through into the personal effect they have on him, in the form of a domineering influence often difficult to define. It is sensed as a sort of stifling or oppressive feeling which holds everybody around her under a spell. It gives a woman of this type a mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

    [From here on, it mostly discusses neurosis, not the normal type]

    This power is derived from the deeply felt, unconscious images, but consciously she is apt to relate it to the ego, whereupon her influence becomes debased into personal tyranny. Whenever the unconscious subject is identified with the ego, the mysterious power of intensive feeling turns into a banal and arrogant desire to dominate, a vanity, and a petty bossiness. This produces a type of woman most regrettably distinguished by her unscrupulous ambition and mischievous cruelty. But it is a change, however, that also leads to neurosis.

    So long as the ego feels subordinate to the unconscious subject, and feeling is aware of something higher and mightier than the ego, the type is normal. Although the unconscious thinking is archaic, its reductive tendencies help to compensate the occasional inclination to exalt the ego into the subject. If this does take place as a result of complete suppression of the counterbalancing subliminal processes, the unconscious thinking goes over into open opposition and gets projected onto objects. The now egocentric subject comes to feel the power and importance of the devalued object. She begins consciously to feel 'what other people think'. Naturally, other people are thinking all sorts of mean things, scheming evil, contriving plots, secrecy intrigues, etc. To prevent this, she must carry out counter-intrigues, to suspect and sound out others, and weave counter plots. Beset by rumors, she must make frantic efforts to convert a threatened inferiority into a superiority. Endless secret rivalries develop, and in these embittered struggles she will shrink from no baseness or evil means, but even virtues will be misused and tampered with in order to play the trump card. Such a development must end in exhaustion. The form of neurosis is neurasthenic rather than hysterical, often with severe physical complications, such as anemia and sequelae.




    (III) PECULIARITIES OF THE BASIC PSYCHOLOGICAL FUNCTIONS IN THE INTROVERTED ATTITUDE

    1. Thinking

    When describing extraverted thinking, I gave a brief characterization of introverted thinking, to which at this stage I must make further reference. Introverted thinking is primarily orientated by the subjective factor. At the least, this subjective factor is represented by a subjective feeling of direction, which, in the last resort, determines judgment. Occasionally, it is a more or less finished image, which to some extent, serves as a standard. This thinking may be conceived either with concrete or with abstract factors, but always at the decisive points it is orientated by subjective data. Hence, it does not lead from concrete experience back again into objective things, but always to the subjective content, External facts are not the aim and origin of this thinking, although the introvert would often like to make it so appear. It begins in the subject, and returns to the subject, although it may [p. 481] undertake the widest flights into the territory of the real and the actual. Hence, in the statement of new facts, its chief value is indirect, because new views rather than the perception of new facts are its main concern. It formulates questions and creates theories; it opens up prospects and yields insight, but in the presence of facts it exhibits a reserved demeanour. As illustrative examples they have their value, but they must not prevail. Facts are collected as evidence or examples for a theory, but never for their own sake. Should this latter ever occur, it is done only as a compliment to the extraverted style. For this kind of thinking facts are of secondary importance; what, apparently, is of absolutely paramount importance is the development and presentation of the subjective idea, that primordial symbolical image standing more or less darkly before the inner vision. Its aim, therefore, is never concerned with an intellectual reconstruction of concrete actuality, but with the shaping of that dim image into a resplendent idea. Its desire is to reach reality; its goal is to see how external facts fit into, and fulfil, the framework of the idea; its actual creative power is proved by the fact that this thinking can also create that idea which, though not present in the external facts, is yet the most suitable, abstract expression of them. Its task is accomplished when the idea it has fashioned seems to emerge so inevitably from the external facts that they actually prove its validity.


    But just as little as it is given to extraverted thinking to wrest a really sound inductive idea from concrete facts or ever to create new ones, does it lie in the power of introverted thinking to translate its original image into an idea adequately adapted to the facts. For, as in the former case the purely empirical heaping together of facts paralyses thought and smothers their meaning, so in the latter case introverted thinking shows a dangerous tendency [p. 482] to coerce facts into the shape of its image, or by ignoring them altogether, to unfold its phantasy image in freedom. In such a case, it will be impossible for the presented idea to deny its origin from the dim archaic image. There will cling to it a certain mythological character that we are prone to interpret as 'originality', or in more pronounced cases' as mere whimsicality; since its archaic character is not transparent as such to specialists unfamiliar with mythological motives. The subjective force of conviction inherent in such an idea is usually very great; its power too is the more convincing, the less it is influenced by contact with outer facts. Although to the man who advocates the idea, it may well seem that his scanty store of facts were the actual ground and source of the truth and validity of his idea, yet such is not the case, for the idea derives its convincing power from its unconscious archetype, which, as such, has universal validity and everlasting truth. Its truth, however, is so universal and symbolic, that it must first enter into the recognized and recognizable knowledge of the time, before it can become a practical truth of any real value to life. What sort of a causality would it be, for instance, that never became perceptible in practical causes and practical results?


    This thinking easily loses itself in the immense truth of the subjective factor. It creates theories for the sake of theories, apparently with a view to real or at least possible facts, yet always with a distinct tendency to go over from the world of ideas into mere imagery. Accordingly many intuitions of possibilities appear on the scene, none of which however achieve any reality, until finally images are produced which no longer express anything externally real, being 'merely' symbols of the simply unknowable. It is now merely a mystical thinking and quite as unfruitful as that empirical thinking whose sole operation is within the framework of objective facts. [p. 483]


    Whereas the latter sinks to the level of a mere presentation of facts, the former evaporates into a representation of the unknowable, which is even beyond everything that could be expressed in an image. The presentation of facts has a certain incontestable truth, because the subjective factor is excluded and the facts speak for themselves. Similarly, the representing of the unknowable has also an immediate, subjective, and convincing power, because it is demonstrable from its own existence. The former says 'Est, ergo est' ('It is ; therefore it is') ; while the latter says 'Cogito, ergo cogito' (' I think ; therefore I think'). In the last analysis, introverted thinking arrives at the evidence of its own subjective being, while extraverted thinking is driven to the evidence of its complete identity with the objective fact. For, while the extravert really denies himself in his complete dispersion among objects, the introvert, by ridding himself of each and every content, has to content himself with his mere existence. In both cases the further development of life is crowded out of the domain of thought into the region of other psychic functions which had hitherto existed in relative unconsciousness. The extraordinary impoverishment of introverted thinking in relation to objective facts finds compensation in an abundance of unconscious facts. Whenever consciousness, wedded to the function of thought, confines itself within the smallest and emptiest circle possible -- though seeming to contain the plenitude of divinity -- unconscious phantasy becomes proportionately enriched by a multitude of archaically formed facts, a veritable pandemonium of magical and irrational factors, wearing the particular aspect that accords with the nature of that function which shall next relieve the thought-function as the representative of life. If this should be the intuitive function, the 'other side' will be viewed with the eyes of a Kubin or a Meyrink. If it is the feeling-function, [p. 484] there arise quite unheard of and fantastic feeling-relations, coupled with feeling-judgments of a quite contradictory and unintelligible character. If the sensation-function, then the senses discover some new and never-before-experienced possibility, both within and without the body. A closer investigation of such changes can easily demonstrate the reappearance of primitive psychology with all its characteristic features. Naturally, the thing experienced is not merely primitive but also symbolic; in fact, the older and more primeval it appears, the more does it represent the future truth: since everything ancient in our unconscious means the coming possibility.


    Under ordinary circumstances, not even the transition to the 'other side' succeeds -- still less the redeeming journey through the unconscious. The passage across is chiefly prevented by conscious resistance to any subjection of the ego to the unconscious reality and to the determining reality of the unconscious object. The condition is a dissociation-in other words, a neurosis having the character of an inner wastage with increasing brain-exhaustion -- a psychoasthenia, in fact.


    2. The Introverted Thinking Type

    Just as Darwin might possibly represent the normal extraverted thinking type, so we might point to Kant as a counter-example of the normal introverted thinking type. The former speaks with facts; the latter appeals to the subjective factor. Darwin ranges over the wide fields of objective facts, while Kant restricts himself to a critique of knowledge in general. But suppose a Cuvier be contrasted with a Nietzsche: the antithesis becomes even sharper.


    The introverted thinking type is characterized by a priority of the thinking I have just described. Like his [p. 485] extraverted parallel, he is decisively influenced by ideas; these, however, have their origin, not in the objective data but in the subjective foundation. Like the extravert, he too will follow his ideas, but in the reverse direction: inwardly not outwardly. Intensity is his aim, not extensity. In these fundamental characters he differs markedly, indeed quite unmistakably from his extraverted parallel. Like every introverted type, he is almost completely lacking in that which distinguishes his counter type, namely, the intensive relatedness to the object. In the case of a human object, the man has a distinct feeling that he matters only in a negative way,
    i.e., in milder instances he is merely conscious of being superfluous, but with a more extreme type he feels himself warded off as something definitely disturbing. This negative relation to the object-indifference, and even aversion-characterizes every introvert; it also makes a description of the introverted type in general extremely difficult. With him, everything tends to disappear and get concealed. His judgment appears cold, obstinate, arbitrary, and inconsiderate, simply because he is related less to the object than the subject. One can feel nothing in it that might possibly confer a higher value upon the object; it always seems to go beyond the object, leaving behind it a flavour of a certain subjective superiority. Courtesy, amiability, and friendliness may be present, but often with a particular quality suggesting a certain uneasiness, which betrays an ulterior aim, namely, the disarming of an opponent, who must at all costs be pacified and set at ease lest he prove a disturbing- element. In no sense, of course, is he an opponent, but, if at all sensitive, he will feel somewhat repelled, perhaps even depreciated. Invariably the object has to submit to a certain neglect; in worse cases it is even surrounded with quite unnecessary measures of precaution. Thus it happens that this type tends to [p. 486] disappear behind a cloud of misunderstanding, which only thickens the more he attempts to assume, by way of compensation and with the help of his inferior functions, a certain mask of urbanity, which often presents a most vivid contrast to his real nature. Although in the extension of his world of ideas he shrinks from no risk, however daring, and never even considers the possibility that such a world might also be dangerous, revolutionary, heretical, and wounding to feeling, he is none the less a prey to the liveliest anxiety, should it ever chance to become objectively real. That goes against the grain. When the time comes for him to transplant his ideas into the world, his is by no means the air of an anxious mother solicitous for her children's welfare; he merely exposes them, and is often extremely annoyed when they fail to thrive on their own account. The decided lack he usually displays in practical ability, and his aversion from any sort of re[accent]clame assist in this attitude. If to his eyes his product appears subjectively correct and true, it must also be so in practice, and others have simply got to bow to its truth. Hardly ever will he go out of his way to win anyone's appreciation of it, especially if it be anyone of influence. And, when he brings himself to do so, he is usually so extremely maladroit that he merely achieves the opposite of his purpose. In his own special province, there are usually awkward experiences with his colleagues, since he never knows how to win their favour; as a rule he only succeeds in showing them how entirely superfluous they are to him. In the pursuit of his ideas he is generally stubborn, head-strong, and quite unamenable to influence. His suggestibility to personal influences is in strange contrast to this. An object has only to be recognized as apparently innocuous for such a type to become extremely accessible to really inferior elements. They lay hold of him from the [p. 487] unconscious. He lets himself be brutalized and exploited in the most ignominious way, if only he can be left undisturbed in the pursuit of his ideas. He simply does not see when he is being plundered behind his back and wronged in practical ways: this is because his relation to the object is such a secondary matter that lie is left without a guide in the purely objective valuation of his product. In thinking out his problems to the utmost of his ability, he also complicates them, and constantly becomes entangled in every possible scruple. However clear to himself the inner structure of his thoughts may be, he is not in the least clear where and how they link up with the world of reality. Only with difficulty can he persuade himself to admit that what is clear to him may not be equally clear to everyone. His style is usually loaded and complicated by all sorts of accessories, qualifications, saving clauses, doubts, etc., which spring from his exacting scrupulousness. His work goes slowly and with difficulty. Either he is taciturn or he falls among people who cannot understand him; whereupon he proceeds to gather further proof of the unfathomable stupidity of man. If he should ever chance to be understood, he is credulously liable to overestimate. Ambitious women have only to understand how advantage may be taken of his uncritical attitude towards the object to make an easy prey of him; or he may develop into a misanthropic bachelor with a childlike heart. Then, too, his outward appearance is often gauche, as if he were painfully anxious to escape observation; or he may show a remarkable unconcern, an almost childlike naivete. In his own particular field of work he provokes violent contradiction, with which he has no notion how to deal, unless by chance he is seduced by his primitive affects into biting and fruitless polemics. By his wider circle he is counted inconsiderate and domineering. But the [p. 488] better one knows him, the more favourable one's judgment becomes, and his nearest friends are well aware how to value his intimacy. To people who judge him from afar he appears prickly, inaccessible, haughty; frequently he may even seem soured as a result of his anti-social prejudices. He has little influence as a personal teacher, since the mentality of his pupils is strange to him. Besides, teaching has, at bottom, little interest for him, except when it accidentally provides him with a theoretical problem. He is a poor teacher, because while teaching his thought is engaged with the actual material, and will not be satisfied with its mere presentation.

    With the intensification of his type, his convictions become all the more rigid and unbending. Foreign influences are eliminated; he becomes more unsympathetic to his peripheral world, and therefore more dependent upon his intimates. His expression becomes more personal and inconsiderate and his ideas more profound, but they can no longer be adequately expressed in the material at hand. This lack is replaced by emotivity and susceptibility. The foreign influence, brusquely declined from without, reaches him from within, from the side of the unconscious, and he is obliged to collect evidence against it and against things in general which to outsiders seems quite superfluous. Through the subjectification of consciousness occasioned by his defective relationship to the object, what secretly concerns his own
    person now seems to him of chief importance. And he begins to confound his subjective truth with his own person. Not that he will attempt to press anyone personally with his convictions, but he will break out with venomous and personal retorts against every criticism, however just. Thus in every respect his isolation gradually increases. His originally fertilizing ideas become destructive, because poisoned by a kind of sediment of bitterness. His struggle against the influences emanating [p. 489] from the unconscious increases with his external isolation, until gradually this begins to cripple him. A still greater isolation must surely protect him from the unconscious influences, but as a rule this only takes him deeper into the conflict which is destroying him within.

    The thinking of the introverted type is positive and synthetic in the development of those ideas which in ever increasing measure approach the eternal validity of the primordial images. But, when their connection with objective experience begins to fade, they become mythological and untrue for the present situation. Hence this thinking holds value only for its contemporaries, just so long as it also stands in visible and understandable connection with the known facts of the time. But, when thinking becomes mythological, its irrelevancy grows until finally it gets lost in itself. The relatively unconscious functions of feeling, intuition, and sensation, which counterbalance introverted thinking, are inferior in quality and have a primitive, extraverted character, to which all the troublesome objective influences this type is subject to must be ascribed. The various measures of self-defence, the curious protective obstacles with which such people are wont to surround themselves, are sufficiently familiar, and I may, therefore, spare myself a description of them. They all serve as a defence against 'magical' influences; a vague dread of the other sex also belongs to this category.


    [ Web Source: Classics in the History of Psychology -- Jung (1921/1923) Chapter 10 ]

    True, but the way he manhunts adam down seems more like some fi moral being butthurt than anything else. A logical type simply wouldnt care.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    Maybe I'm naive but I do think it's weird when people say Bertrand is trolling. He seems more sincere than the average person to me.
    He's like you, how you trolled me, that's why you two get along, and why you don't see it.

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    owned scarper




    I would just like to point out this latest posting spate wasn't initiated by me and I suffered like a page of abuse before even really digging in, so its a mix up to say I hunted Adam down

    i believe it was squark of all people that sounded the beta call to arms. not that I mind, just setting the record straight

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    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    Maybe I'm naive but I do think it's weird when people say Bertrand is trolling. He seems more sincere than the average person to me.
    It's just like I defend Adam Strange, you defend Bertrand, identicals love each other on forums.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    fka lungs ashlesha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarper View Post
    He's like you, how you trolled me, that's why you two get along, and why you don't see it.
    you've progressed very quickly to being the person here i find most irritating. adam loses his crown.

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