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  1. #1841
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Nah, LSE doesn't care about convincing others of an "ideology": Ti system of thought that isn't directly about pragmatic results like for Te. LSE doesn't really have time for arguing about opinions... LSE stereotypically cares about making people work hard, while LSI stereotypically cares about the "ideology" and its implementation.
    No, i disagree. Besides, I don't think socionics is an 'ideology'
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    No, i disagree. Besides, I don't think socionics is an 'ideology'
    Ideology = set of opinions or beliefs of a group or an individual. As in, opinions where empirical evidence is not the starting point but an a priori idea for a system of thought. My point is exactly that Socionics is easily used as such an "ideology" yeah... not by everyone but by some definitely. Ask @Director Abbie, a real LSE if she deals much with the theory... nope. She said to me that she forgets about most of it soon when told about it. Lol. And she'd never bother engaging in these arguments about what's logical and reasonable about the theory... So, if Sol is an LSE, then he's an extremely atypical LSE that oozes Ti buzzwords.

    Feel free to disagree but you showed no objective, that is, logically reasonable basis of the disagreement... unless you do explain your thoughts. Incidentally, Sol criticizes people for this a lot, them not providing such objective reasoning. Again, a typical LSE couldn't care less about that.

  3. #1843
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    why assume abbie is more of a LSE than Sol

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    عالم نفسي thehotelambush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    there's actually a concept in American law that basically says you can't be insulted by something a reasonable person would not take seriously to begin with, so all this whining about Sol calling people heretics is dumb because everyone should know, like Adam Strange pointed out, there's no gold tablets backing it, its just a meaningless phrase. its like if I call someone an infidel because they prefer vanilla over chocolate. its not bannable because you're just as if not more stupid for thinking its offensive to begin with
    That applies to libel or slander, not harassment. And he's not joking, he's quite serious in thinking I'm a heretic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avebury View Post
    So you think that Sol calling you a heretic is an offense and should be warned, or are you saying this to suggest that Myst's complaint is not legitimate?

    If someone is complaining of harassment that seems like something to look into, you know, as a mod and all...
    I think that this forum is and has been a toxic environment, to varying degrees, and the first step to fixing that is to not let people get away with continually harassing others. (And I'm not a mod btw if that's what you're suggesting.)

    I don't know enough about the @Myst / @squark situation to comment, other than I think Myst is one of the most valuable members on here, though she does like to argue a bit too much

    @Sol is correct in that my understanding of socionics is based on my own direct observation and inspiration, so I don't mindlessly follow Jung or Augusta, but beyond that it seems he has little idea what my views actually are. (I have never emphasized Reinin dichotomies and in fact discourage their use in practical settings.)

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    @thehotelambush
    you are incompetent heretic with strange views and the lack of understanding even of the core things, what is seen on many examples
    and you can't protect your opinion by normal logical ways, what switches you to heretic reasoning, emotions and demagogy

    that's the essense about the situation and your discussions here

    your problems are 2: 1) lame sources about the typology which you took too seriously and got a mess in your head; 2) your mind is very speculative and you do not care about this. the typolgy is the game for you to use it normally and with the responsibility. you play here for your emotions and do not care about the truth. if you would be stupid, - I'd could to see the other reasons, but your approach is conscious
    Last edited by Sol; 06-25-2018 at 11:42 AM.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    That applies to libel or slander, not harassment.
    lol, no... harassment is subject to the same requirement that you can't just manufacture it by flipping out in response to something that isn't credible to begin with. I get that you want to argue this, but the point is someone arguing with you on a public forum and using the word "heresy" to characterize your stance is not harrasment just because you feel harassed, in the same way a statement is not defamatory just because you were offended. there's a reasonableness requirement that is set a lot higher than where you'd personally peg it. you're essentially crying to mommy hoping the state is ESE when its probably not. although who knows with these mods

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    lol, no... harassment is subject to the same requirement
    the personal harassment is the critique of his opinion as he feels bad emotions from this
    it's his speculative logic in this question where he uses the similar approach like with typology discussions

    what he actually wants is the censorship of opinions about the typology and the lie about what the typology is by the hiding that his heresy is not such. as the objective truth is out of his priorities here

    just the recent example. he delusionally claimed that Te can't set the goals, lol. while any function can do this
    have no idea by which bs sources he studed the types that accepted so evident delusions
    also he promised the money for the answer on his noob question there. I gave it, but seems he has no that promised million
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    did Sol just say lol

    sometimes I get the feeling that Sol is actually from an english-speaking country

    anybody can say lol, but sometimes he'll break out with a surprisingly non-Sol word or phrase

    oh he said noob as well
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    I wonder if it's possible to just drive out conflict by carrying a conversation about something else entirely while the conflict plays in the background, but idk where to take this train of thought because I don't even have a new conversation topic in mind
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    if I weren't in bed right now then I might actually move to my computer, but I'm just way too comfortable right here, and I don't really imagine it'll be worth the trip
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    sometimes I like to make jokes about recently traumatic experiences I've endured (whether real or imaginary) on various internet platforms but like in a subdued way where nobody knows if I'm being serious, or it slips under the radar because I put it in a place nobody is willing to look
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    how funny would it be if I mistook this window for my blog
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    @wasp I love how you’re trying to change topic LOL
    KEEP IT LIGHT AND KEEP IT MOVING

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    @User Name in return for your cooperation, I will let you keep your sociotype, but beware that if you upset me, even if it's minor, there is truly no measure to how fast I will place you in an adjacent quadra (I don't remember what adjacent means)
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    Feeling fucking fantastic golden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    lol, no... harassment is subject to the same requirement that you can't just manufacture it by flipping out in response to something that isn't credible to begin with. I get that you want to argue this, but the point is someone arguing with you on a public forum and using the word "heresy" to characterize your stance is not harrasment just because you feel harassed, in the same way a statement is not defamatory just because you were offended. there's a reasonableness requirement that is set a lot higher than where you'd personally peg it. you're essentially crying to mommy hoping the state is ESE when its probably not. although who knows with these mods
    Harassment is not about how third parties view someone. Harassment has to do with how one person feels, and although we can make some assumptions about what is reasonable to feel, it will be more subjective than defamation.

    Harassment as a legal concept includes, broadly, “unwanted” behavior directed at a person that the purported harasser will not cease. One person may be more easily bothered than another. Sometimes people choose targets who are easily bothered.

    “S/he shouldn’t feel harassed” is the typical, usually irrelevant defense raised when someone says they do in fact feel harassed. It’s a real copout. Backing off when someone says “Leave me alone” is a behavior correction most people master by first grade.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wasp View Post
    @User Name in return for your cooperation, I will let you keep your sociotype, but beware that if you upset me, even if it's minor, there is truly no measure to how fast I will place you in an adjacent quadra (I don't remember what adjacent means)
    Ok, I promise. Just in case, I’d prefer Delta > Beta, but I won’t let it happen.
    KEEP IT LIGHT AND KEEP IT MOVING

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    That applies to libel or slander, not harassment. And he's not joking, he's quite serious in thinking I'm a heretic. (...)
    I do think Sol's fanaticism reached incredibly high levels lately (or I didn't notice these extreme examples of it before?).

    In general I agree the forum needs more moderation and your suggestion does sound good as a first step. (That situation I mentioned also wouldn't even have happened in the first place and it would've helped everyone honestly.) I hope something will change about the moderation issue finally.

    Also I do realize that I'm argumentative but I really do not try to do personal attacks at people with it. I guess a problem can be though that some people will see discussions including even the arguments in a social context with a personal interpretation belonging to that even when it's really a technical and not social-personal topic (that is, Socionics) and so I just focus on the impersonal argument itself. Even if I sound quite involved. Some people (though this is hopefully the minority) did misunderstand this sometimes before and I'm still thinking of the best way to convey my actual attitude.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    why assume abbie is more of a LSE than Sol
    She fits LSE stuff way more anyhow.

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    The forum is at a decent level of moderation right now. Solve your inter-personal problems yourself with your own social skills.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wasp View Post
    sometimes I like to make jokes about recently traumatic experiences I've endured (whether real or imaginary) on various internet platforms but like in a subdued way where nobody knows if I'm being serious, or it slips under the radar because I put it in a place nobody is willing to look
    If thats true, I wonder why you thought that I was being serious that time I did it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by golden View Post
    Harassment is not about how third parties view someone. Harassment has to do with how one person feels, and although we can make some assumptions about what is reasonable to feel, it will be more subjective than defamation.

    Harassment as a legal concept includes, broadly, “unwanted” behavior directed at a person that the purported harasser will not cease. One person may be more easily bothered than another. Sometimes people choose targets who are easily bothered.

    “S/he shouldn’t feel harassed” is the typical, usually irrelevant defense raised when someone says they do in fact feel harassed. It’s a real copout. Backing off when someone says “Leave me alone” is a behavior correction most people master by first grade.
    wrooong, feeling harassed doesn't amount to being harassed. also back off (see what I did there). also being easily bothered is the exact case in point often cited as to precisely why its not harassment or defamation or to put it more generally "an invasion of a protected right" of any kind. i get that people don't like this, but its not the law of the forums its just american jurisprudence, people are free to disagree, but you're wrong about what the law actually is. I cited it as an example of what a country has decided to recognize on the basis of a great deal of this sort of debate. in other words, better minds than us have worked this out before

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    Feeling fucking fantastic golden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    wrooong, feeling harassed doesn't amount to being harassed. also back off
    Lol. Actually how a person feels is taken into account in legal applications of harassment concepts. It is not the only issue, though, just one factor. Bye!
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    I'm being harassed! someone stop this person!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    I'm being harassed! someone stop this person!
    Except she actually backed off and didn't continue. What makes something harassment is that the person continues after being asked to stop.

    In the real world, if you ask someone to leave you alone and they keep following you around heckling you everywhere you go, parking outside your house waiting for you to come out, following you to work etc, you can get a restraining order against that person. The vast majority of people are reasonable enough that this never becomes necessary. Most people don't make a mission out of annoying someone, and have enough respect for others that they will stop when asked. The same kind of actions taken online are still harassment, just limited in scope, and subject to whatever rules govern the particular domain they're happening in.

    While I personally would just find it funny if someone called me a heretic, and wouldn't care, obviously this is something that bothers hotel. Likewise, he isn't bothered by people who have harassed me. So, it really is individual. And I don't think it'd be particularly hard for Sol to disagree with hotel without calling his viewpoints heresy. Sol is welcome to call me a heretic if he likes lol, but hotel has expressed very clearly that this is something that he wants Sol to stop doing to him. It shouldn't be hard.

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    stop harassing me squark!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal View Post
    If thats true, I wonder why you thought that I was being serious that time I did it.
    I think there's a pretty clear difference between me posting a message not directed toward to anyone in particular (i.e. one of my previous posts on this thread) and you sending me a long montage about you being depressed, then after I tried to console you, you pretended you were "pranking" me, and when I told you I didn't believe it was a "prank", you admitted I was right and that you were trying to cover up for the fact that you were embarrassed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wasp View Post
    I think there's a pretty clear difference between me posting a message not directed toward to anyone in particular (i.e. one of my previous posts on this thread) and you sending me a long montage about you being depressed, then after I tried to console you, you pretended you were "pranking" me, and when I told you I didn't believe it was a "prank", you admitted I was right and that you were trying to cover up for the fact that you were embarrassed.
    I never admitted to be embarrassed, wtf.

    I just said that I told that, then for me it would be funny to say to you it was all a lie since you were like being taking it so seriously when it doesn't affect me because it happened many years ago. So I thought your attitude was cute.

    Funny how you think I was embarrassed even when I told you that I wasn't.

    Anyway, no hard feelings at all. stop imagining stuff, it was just funny to me that you said the before mentioned but at the same time unable to undeersand that others would play with it too. Like now.
    Guess I cant mention anything to you anymore since you get all wrong like then.
    So thats all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal View Post
    I never admitted to be embarrassed, wtf.

    I just said that I told that, then for me it would be funny to say to you it was all a lie since you were like being taking it so seriously when it doesn't affect me because it happened many years ago. So I thought your attitude was cute.

    Funny how you think I was embarrassed even when I told you that I wasn't.

    Anyway, no hard feelings at all. stop imagining stuff, it was just funny to me that you said the before mentioned but at the same time unable to undeersand that others would play with it too. Like now.
    Guess I cant mention anything to you anymore since you get all wrong like then.
    So thats all.


    >brings up something out of the blue
    >"no hard feelings at all, stop imagining stuff"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    why assume abbie is more of a LSE than Sol
    I have credentials!

    But more seriously, this is what the data shows:
    Sol.png DA.png

    LSE
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    Johari Nohari

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    lol Abbie I don't think there is a serious opposition to your LSE type.
    Btw ^this is how a Te-Dom type supports his/ claims claims.

    (I clicked likes for Bertrand's post. But I misread the content...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by wasp View Post


    >brings up something out of the blue
    >"no hard feelings at all, stop imagining stuff"

    It wasn't out of the blue, you said something and I commented something related to that because I thought it was kinda ironic due your past behavior with me making pranks in the same way. Now, if you get angry about me saying anything at you, thats kinda ironic too, since you are wanting to change the atmosphere of the thread but you also get cranky at the slightest comment about your attitude.
    Then, I wouldnt think that is fair that you get angry for me saying my opinion openly about your behavior when you have done the same with me, like for example in many of my threads.
    Then, I didnt mentioned the later because of hard feelings, but because I thought it was ironic, as I said, its hard to understand, also the reason for you thinking that is normal for you to joke about your traumas but others do it because they are embarrased, and why on earth someone should be or feel embarrased about depression? Or why I should feel embarrased with you?

    You seem to want to preserve some kind of unfair treatment towards me (and some others) and I end up finding it slightly obnoxious, honestly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Ideology = set of opinions or beliefs of a group or an individual. As in, opinions where empirical evidence is not the starting point but an a priori idea for a system of thought. My point is exactly that Socionics is easily used as such an "ideology" yeah... not by everyone but by some definitely. Ask @Director Abbie, a real LSE if she deals much with the theory... nope. She said to me that she forgets about most of it soon when told about it. Lol. And she'd never bother engaging in these arguments about what's logical and reasonable about the theory... So, if Sol is an LSE, then he's an extremely atypical LSE that oozes Ti buzzwords.

    Feel free to disagree but you showed no objective, that is, logically reasonable basis of the disagreement... unless you do explain your thoughts. Incidentally, Sol criticizes people for this a lot, them not providing such objective reasoning. Again, a typical LSE couldn't care less about that.

    When i go to define term on google, i get the following for ideology:


    a system of ideas and ideals, especially one that forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy.
    [COLOR=#878787 !important]"the ideology of republicanism"[/COLOR]
    synonyms: beliefs, ideas, ideals, principles, ethics, morals; More


    I think socionics is a theory.
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    I think socionics is a theory.
    a system of some hypotheses by Jung and Augustinavichiute. from the objective and formal approach

    also there is the problem what people call as Socionics. as they practically call any bs as Socionics, for example Gulenko's fantasies about subtypes, etc.
    many people also do not get the degree they should trust to concrete hypotheses. they may mess Jung's dichotomies with Reinin's bs like they have the equal basis what is lol
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    When i go to define term on google, i get the following for ideology:


    a system of ideas and ideals, especially one that forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy.
    [COLOR=#878787 !important]"the ideology of republicanism"[/COLOR]
    synonyms: beliefs, ideas, ideals, principles, ethics, morals; More


    I think socionics is a theory.
    Yeah, exactly, a system of ideas with some subjective justification like that... Like I said in my previous post. Sol does use Socionics in that form. He even calls people who have different views heretics etc... Tho' yeah that takes it quite far... I mean I like to stick to a system I deem good too, and then I do prefer (even if I don't force) others to agree too as long as it really is correct logically, but yeah I'm not this fanatic with it lol

    So anyway yeah LSE doesn't really tend to do that with their way of thinking, they just look at what works pragmatically, ignoring subjective justification for the ideas or system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    a system of some hypotheses by Jung and Augustinavichiute. from the objective and formal approach

    also there is the problem what people call as Socionics. as they practically call any bs as Socionics, for example Gulenko's fantasies about subtypes, etc.
    many people also do not get the degree they should trust to concrete hypotheses. they may mess Jung's dichotomies with Reinin's bs like they have the equal basis what is lol
    Objective Te is Director Abbie's approach lol

    Ti is still objective of course in terms of it still being quantitative and explicit rather than qualitative or implicit like Fe/Fi

    I do agree with you though as you know, about how Gulenko has crazy fantasies etc.

    It tends to be the N people that get that speculative

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    Quote Originally Posted by yeves View Post
    @Joy not SEE but Ti seeking type? which Ti porl would be pointing out every contradiction?


    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...s-of-instincts
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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    Feeling fucking fantastic golden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Dang, people are retyping you after all this time.

    Socionics really works y’all!
    LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”

    Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”

    LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by golden View Post
    Dang, people are retyping you after all this time.
    from language point, to retype is to change your opinion about someone's type. as when you say it in the 1st time - it's just a typing

    the mass incorrect usage of the term "retyping" I saw at socioforum. where to say people your opinion about their type leads to the ban on 3 monthes. seems from the point of the admin Hrulyov the stupid and incompetent ones should to suffer from the mistake, and also people in possible relations with them
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Feeling fucking fantastic golden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    from language point, to retype is to change your opinion about someone's type. as when you say it in the 1st time - it's just a typing

    the mass incorrect usage of the term "retyping" I saw at socioforum. where to say people your opinion about their type leads to the ban on 3 monthes. seems from the point of the admin Hrulyov the stupid and incompetent ones should to suffer from the mistake, and also people in possible relations with them
    Sol, I hope that you are not actually correcting my English. I am usually patient with you, but that is beyond insane.

    If you see people using the term that way in English, it’s because it is accepted usage.
    LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”

    Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”

    LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by golden View Post
    Sol, I hope that you are not actually correcting my English. I am usually patient with you, but that is beyond insane.

    If you see people using the term that way in English, it’s because it is accepted usage.
    I think it's just Ti nitpicking

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