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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    in short to say EIIs don't argue is really to say "EII's don't argue like me"
    No, it's not. EIIs 1) don't value Fe/Ti so they care less about convincing people of their views / agreeing with people, preferring to simply avoid people that they aren't compatible with (Fi) and 2) don't value Se (and have Se vulnerable + Si mobilizing in particular) so they tend to avoid conflict and stressful situations.

    An example I have personally witnessed, to illustrate what I mean:

    -LSI and EII have different ideas about how to do something
    -LSI contacts EII periodically and attempts to "hash out" their differences
    -EII instead prefers to avoid talking about (or resolving) the issue and maintain the status quo
    -this causes the LSI to see the EII as not caring about the issue, making LSI more angry with EII
    -EII continues to be avoidant
    etc.

    This is what I mean by "EIIs don't like to argue" and if you aren't able to conceive of a person who is like this, it says more about your own personality than anything. Being avoidant is the exact opposite of arguing. If you had two EIIs they may have less reason to avoid one another but it wouldn't be the kind of heated, out-in-the-open debate that Betas prefer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    No, it's not. EIIs 1) don't value Fe/Ti so they care less about convincing people of their views / agreeing with people, preferring to simply avoid people that they aren't compatible with (Fi) and 2) don't value Se (and have Se vulnerable + Si mobilizing in particular) so they tend to avoid conflict and stressful situations.

    An example I have personally witnessed, to illustrate what I mean:

    -LSI and EII have different ideas about how to do something
    -LSI contacts EII periodically and attempts to "hash out" their differences
    -EII instead prefers to avoid talking about (or resolving) the issue and maintain the status quo
    -this causes the LSI to see the EII as not caring about the issue, making LSI more angry with EII
    -EII continues to be avoidant
    etc.

    This is what I mean by "EIIs don't like to argue" and if you aren't able to conceive of a person who is like this, it says more about your own personality than anything. Being avoidant is the exact opposite of arguing. If you had two EIIs they may have less reason to avoid one another but it wouldn't be the kind of heated, out-in-the-open debate that Betas prefer.
    Maybe, but then how do you explain that EIIs are often said to be proselytizing, giving moral lectures to others. Or do you mean that the way they do this is very different?

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    You could have just shortened that by saying, "I define EIIs as someone who doesn't like to argue".

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    if EIIs don't like to argue how do they conflict with SLE, why doesn't SLE just win? when it comes to pain it seems EII gives it as good as they get it. when they look at people as the face of conscience, what is that if not an argument. if they literally had no ability to compete they would have been selected out a long time ago. they embody a form of argument that just hits on a channel you're presently short shrifting.

    if you constrain argument to "verbal altercation of explicit rational postulates" then yeah they don't like to argue but that's an artificially constrained view of the subject. there's nothing wrong with it being artificially constrained, but the point is if the model is an artificial constraint and someone can artificially draw those lines in a different place, that is precisely why we have competing models and so forth. there's no problem with competing models either, the point is simply that arguments ultimately are resolved across a higher level. this stuff doesn't end here, this is why I say to Myst her and Sol could be reversed, my point is not that they're definitely reversed, but rather that such a thing is possible. right now in the final analysis these models signify the preferred orientation of individuals toward phenomena. what selects between them is not their Ti but a natural force of which Ti is a subsidiary component in the service of. the arguments that win are selected not for their internal symmetry since you can gerrymander any system you want, but the real results they produce. in that sense what people are aiming for when they use socionics often determines the model they adapt... thus it should come as no surprise people argue and arguments explicitly revolving around socionics tend to be Ti, but that's only one piece of the picture. when I leave here and go apply it or observe the world with socionics in mind, to the extent that I benefit and influence the world and pass on that influence in time is an argument all its own. if your argument is perfect in your own mind but fails to reach other people the argument fails when you die a natural death, you could say it served a kind of introverted purpose but not an extroverted one because it was convincing internally but ended there... to say arguments are Ti is the statement of a Ti base affirming its own commitment to itself by construing the world and its ability to influence and be influenced solely in terms of Ti... its simply the lens through which you view things not the actual case. if you think all arguments entail people sitting down and hashing things out and that anything other than that is not an argument, then you view the world in limited terms. humanity is a forum where arguments play themselves out across every level all the time and nature selects between them and that is how we have things other than Ti to begin with. if Ti was the true limit to argument and not one sub instance of it, embodied in a certain type of individual, we would have nothing but Ti types competing amongst themselves if nature was doing its job. the other functions answer to a higher power than your individual rationality

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    Maybe, but then how do you explain that EIIs are often said to be proselytizing, giving moral lectures to others. Or do you mean that the way they do this is very different?
    EIIs can express judgements, like "what you do was wrong", but I wouldn't call it "proselytizing" in the sense of making an impassioned attempt to get someone to change their ways, as an EIE might.

    Probably the more typical case is for them to feel the judgment internally and only make it privy to someone they already have a close relationship with and/or would be sympathetic -- which, again does essentially nothing to confront the actual problem head-on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    if EIIs don't like to argue how do they conflict with SLE, why doesn't SLE just win?
    Yeah...that's another misconception. Conflictors don't "duke it out" until one "wins". They simply have opposite ways of conceiving and placing value on the world which makes communication and cooperation very difficult.

    Again you are making it very clear in what terms you see the world.

    when it comes to pain it seems EII gives it as good as they get it. when they look at people as the face of conscience, what is that if not an argument. if they literally had no ability to compete they would have been selected out a long time ago. they embody a form of argument that just hits on a channel you're presently short shrifting.

    if you constrain argument to "verbal altercation of explicit rational postulates" then yeah they don't like to argue but that's an artificially constrained view of the subject. there's nothing wrong with it being artificially constrained, but the point is if the model is an artificial constraint and someone can artificially draw those lines in a different place, that is precisely why we have competing models and so forth. there's no problem with competing models either, the point is simply that arguments ultimately are resolved across a higher level. this stuff doesn't end here, this is why I say to Myst her and Sol could be reversed, my point is not that they're definitely reversed, but rather that such a thing is possible. right now in the final analysis these models signify the preferred orientation of individuals toward phenomena. what selects between them is not their Ti but a natural force of which Ti is a subsidiary component in the service of. the arguments that win are selected not for their internal symmetry since you can gerrymander any system you want, but the real results they produce. in that sense what people are aiming for when they use socionics often determines the model they adapt... thus it should come as no surprise people argue and arguments explicitly revolving around socionics tend to be Ti, but that's only one piece of the picture. when I leave here and go apply it or observe the world with socionics in mind, to the extent that I benefit and influence the world and pass on that influence in time is an argument all its own. if your argument is perfect in your own mind but fails to reach other people the argument fails when you die a natural death, you could say it served a kind of introverted purpose but not an extroverted one because it was convincing internally but ended there... to say arguments are Ti is the statement of a Ti base affirming its own commitment to itself by construing the world and its ability to influence and be influenced solely in terms of Ti... its simply the lens through which you view things not the actual case. if you think all arguments entail people sitting down and hashing things out and that anything other than that is not an argument, then you view the world in limited terms. humanity is a forum where arguments play themselves out across every level all the time and nature selects between them and that is how we have things other than Ti to begin with. if Ti was the true limit to argument and not one sub instance of it, embodied in a certain type of individual, we would have nothing but Ti types competing amongst themselves if nature was doing its job. the other functions answer to a higher power than your individual rationality
    tl;dr

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    EIIs can express judgements, like "what you do was wrong", but I wouldn't call it "proselytizing" in the sense of making an impassioned attempt to get someone to change their ways, as an EIE might.

    Probably the more typical case is for them to feel the judgment internally and only make it privy to someone they already have a close relationship with and/or would be sympathetic -- which, again does essentially nothing to confront the actual problem head-on.


    sure it does, the other person is just a conduit... it goes to the nature of communicative space. its hard to conceive of certain forces extending beyond the borders in which they operate for us, but that is the whole point of socionics. if you subordinate socionics to a Ti impulse it loses its power because as a psychological theory its power is in its capacity to transcend and illuminate rather than simply capture other forms of experience. this is its "religious" side, or in less loaded terms its "humanitarian" aspect. in other words its ability to improve a person lies its in capacity to confer moral inspiration, which is the nature of "therapy" which is a form of human engineering. if the purpose becomes a form of self satisfaction in the form of Ti it loses its ability to move a person and simply becomes a rationalization for the world, not a real force for positive good in the lives of individuals. competing religions probably don't like this, which is precisely why they take issue with Jung in the first place. they want socionics to neatly explain only certain things and no more and be subordinate to a different collective ethic rather than be the source of a new one, but psychology resulted precisely because religion was insufficient. if religion could adequately fill that role psychology would never have developed
    Last edited by Bertrand; 04-29-2018 at 02:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    EIIs can express judgements, like "what you do was wrong", but I wouldn't call it "proselytizing" in the sense of making an impassioned attempt to get someone to change their ways, as an EIE might.
    Any expressed opinion or emotion influences on others and is a "proselytizing" practically.
    The main difference between base Fi and Fe is about what opinion is expressed. Fe expresses opinion like it's objective, Fi - own subjective emotional relation and about subjective emotions of others.
    In expressive style they may also melt your brain like: "What are you doing? She's also human. You are hurting her." // one ESI
    for a comparision:
    "Do not grumble. You are talking like an old man" // EIE

    > don't value Se (and have Se vulnerable + Si mobilizing in particular) so they tend to avoid conflict and stressful situations.

    Avoiding of open conflicts is more about valued Fi.
    They do not like to force people directly, to be persistent - nonvalued Se.

    > Arguing about views isn't rationality

    Depends on the region where arguing is going.
    It's possibly to imagine two people arguing which coockie taste is better. Just lesser words would be, but it's arguing too.

    > Two LSIs will typically butt heads about opposing views

    It goes better when there is EIE beteem them as a troll-director of own theater.
    Any two T types argue or discuss in logical matters easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    You could have just shortened that by saying, "I define EIIs as someone who doesn't like to argue".
    Fi types do not like the opposing like arguing as people do not like it, not emotionally comfortable.
    Sometimes they may say "sorry" and how they like you before doing this to reduce your negative emotions.
    Mostly they prefer to stay quiet when disagree or to express the agreement in the degree more than have it really to do not make emotional situation worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    if EIIs don't like to argue how do they conflict with SLE, why doesn't SLE just win?
    SLE do not like to see antipathy or blame on their face, sometimes short words of deprecation, to see how they become colder and discharged to them to express the personal aversion, etc. Much passive-agressive ways. EII also may argue in common format, but do it lesser often than T-E types, for example.
    Last edited by Sol; 04-29-2018 at 08:56 AM.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    No, it's not. EIIs 1) don't value Fe/Ti so they care less about convincing people of their views / agreeing with people, preferring to simply avoid people that they aren't compatible with (Fi) and 2) don't value Se (and have Se vulnerable + Si mobilizing in particular) so they tend to avoid conflict and stressful situations.
    This doesn't seem to be specific to EII. This is mostly just Ethics/Feeling. See more below. So for example some IEIs find me too argumentative, too, not just EIIs (or some IEEs). Though I think I've yet to hear this criticism from an EIE, hm.


    An example I have personally witnessed, to illustrate what I mean:

    -LSI and EII have different ideas about how to do something
    -LSI contacts EII periodically and attempts to "hash out" their differences
    -EII instead prefers to avoid talking about (or resolving) the issue and maintain the status quo
    -this causes the LSI to see the EII as not caring about the issue, making LSI more angry with EII
    -EII continues to be avoidant
    etc.
    I never experienced this dynamics with EII. Also, the ones I know tend to just agree with people about how to do things (Te DS I guess). Where I've had problems with EII was always in the area of individual opinions (Ti/Fi).

    The dynamics you describe I've experienced with some IEIs though very much. Though it was not about how to do things per se, more "ideological", individual opinions again. I really don't tend to argue about how to do things, that's too Te to me. But yeah, in the area of individual opinion I've very very much had this with IEIs before. The only other thing that was different is that the IEI can sometimes engage a little too before they resort to avoidance of discussion. But this thing with me engaging this strongly, that is, contacting them periodically and trying to resolve the stuff/hash it out/etc, and feeling like they don't care about the issue and getting angry and so on, this is incredibly familiar for IEI dynamics for me.

    In some cases it was resolved with the IEI, in some nope. But compromise is definitely necessary even when resolved: I have to agree to not try and be on the same page about some things (as long as it's not a very important/deal-breaker type of thing). Not sure what compromise they make... maybe about being more consistent? See below again.

    With EIIs whenever we had differences in individual opinion, it was not this much engagement even from my part as you describe it, nor any annoying demonstrative avoidance from their part. It would be very parallel like I said... the EII will either just listen nicely and say nothing and I know they didn't get convinced, or they'll say whatever Fi stuff that I don't really make sense of. In the latter case it could be some very bad arguments, depending on situation and topic. I don't really see them as avoidant in the Ni way IEIs can do it by randomly seeming to be either avoidant/disappearing or to be listening nicely. Unpredictably, inconsistently. That can bother me in some cases. EII on the other hand is consistent with their being parallel lol, with their just listening nicely and saying nothing much, or just with being in disagreement, etc. No unpredictability. The disagreements themselves are worse than with IEIs in some ways, though (too much crappy negative Fi for me).

    And that btw, is an example of how Irrationality vs Rationality plays out in practice... very different rhythms of Ip vs Ij get to bother me there.


    This is what I mean by "EIIs don't like to argue" and if you aren't able to conceive of a person who is like this, it says more about your own personality than anything. Being avoidant is the exact opposite of arguing. If you had two EIIs they may have less reason to avoid one another but it wouldn't be the kind of heated, out-in-the-open debate that Betas prefer.
    I really dislike this quadra stuff when it ignores certain important differences in types in the quadra or even individual differences. So like I said above, some IEIs are conflict avoidant. The girls more so, it's rare for me to see an IEI girl that's not conflict avoidant (this strange specimen does exist though, or they are more introverted EIEs, not sure in some cases). IEI guys are definitely better at conflict and arguing compared to the girls. And the EIEs of course even more so, when they see a need for it. So yeah, no, IEI is not more ready for engaging in conflict than EII.


    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    EIIs can express judgements, like "what you do was wrong", but I wouldn't call it "proselytizing" in the sense of making an impassioned attempt to get someone to change their ways, as an EIE might.

    Probably the more typical case is for them to feel the judgment internally and only make it privy to someone they already have a close relationship with and/or would be sympathetic -- which, again does essentially nothing to confront the actual problem head-on.
    I absolutely would call it proselytizing, what an upset EII will do. It's not done like EIE does it, heh, no, way lower intensity or influence, but they definitely do try to let others know that they are wrong/immoral, special reproachful and guilt-tripping tactics and whatnot. The difference between EII and other people that have better Se would be of course that EII just does this and then doesn't really know how to actually achieve influence on others, so they just stand there and say their guilt-tripping or other moralistic litany.
    Last edited by Myst; 04-29-2018 at 01:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    Any expressed opinion or emotion influences on others and is a "proselytizing" practically.
    The main difference between base Fi and Fe is about what opinion is expressed. Fe expresses opinion like it's objective, Fi - own subjective emotional relation and about subjective emotions of others.
    In expressive style they may also melt your brain like: "What are you doing? She's also human. You are hurting her." // one ESI
    for a comparision:
    "Do not grumble. You are talking like an old man" // EIE
    Heh for me the first example would just have me roll my eyes internally if it was unsolicited advice. Outwardly if it's not part of some argument, I'd politely deflect the whole thing. If they don't stop at that point, it becomes an argument.

    And yeah EIIs have tried to interfere in my matters like this or in other people's matters. ESI hasn't yet, for some reason. Maybe ESIs and I are just more on the same page with the shared Se...? If it's not unsolicited advice, I don't mind, I'm ok with sitting and listening to my sister (EII-Fi) for a while about her feelings and moral opinions. It's just that I don't really orient by nuances of it. Basics of morality I of course pay attention to, sometimes even better attention than for example EIE heh.

    The latter example (the supposed EIE one), if this is unsolicited, would just annoy me very much, I'd take it as an attack and attack back. If it's not about meddling in my affairs, but a joke, then I would still have to be on good terms with them overall, and I have to have previous experience with them to be able to perceive it as a joke and not as an attack. Or if no previous experience together, they will just have to be extremely expressive about how it's a joke and then I will immediately be able to take it as such and respond accordingly but not many people seem to be able to be that expressive. That's in part due to my having relatively little experience in this area of joking like this.


    > don't value Se (and have Se vulnerable + Si mobilizing in particular) so they tend to avoid conflict and stressful situations.

    Avoiding of open conflicts is more about valued Fi.
    It's just F really, even Fe will avoid some. Tho' sure if they see the need they will dole out ethical judgments and be willing to take up conflict... EIE friend of mine can get really brash in this way sometimes lol, once she was in a dancing place and someone did some very immoral thing and she jumped at them and attacked them.


    They do not like to force people directly, to be persistent - nonvalued Se.
    So you say you value Se. Video, video, video... pushing persistently


    Fi types do not like the opposing like arguing as people do not like it, not emotionally comfortable.
    Sometimes they may say "sorry" and how they like you before doing this to reduce your negative emotions.
    Mostly they prefer to stay quiet when disagree or to express the agreement in the degree more than have it really to do not make emotional situation worse.
    Yeah IxFx stuff, very true of IEIs too in my experience. They just do it in a different rhythm than EII (Ip vs Ij) and some different expressions here and there (Fe vs Fi).


    PS: your way of pushiness with the video stuff, I don't mind per se like some other people seem to, I just really think that you ignored these Se aspects (facts! ) when typing yourself.

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    @Myst you're reading a bit too much into my wording. The question was really more about what to do, rather than how to do it -- which interpreted generally could apply to many conflicts, not just Te. (But LSIs certainly do have specific ideas about how to do tasks in my experience, due more to Ti than Te.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    I really dislike this quadra stuff when it ignores certain important differences in types in the quadra or even individual differences. So like I said above, some IEIs are conflict avoidant.
    Sure, but as a whole Betas are much less avoidant than EIIs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    This doesn't seem to be specific to EII. This is mostly just Ethics/Feeling. See more below. So for example some IEIs find me too argumentative, too, not just EIIs (or some IEEs). Though I think I've yet to hear this criticism from an EIE, hm.
    That would be because it's about Fi/Si specifically (more expressed by an IEI) and not Fe/Se (more expressed by an EIE).
    Last edited by thehotelambush; 04-29-2018 at 01:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    @Myst you're reading a bit too much into my wording. The question was really more about what to do, rather than how to do it -- which interpreted generally could apply to many conflicts, not just Te. (But LSIs certainly do have specific ideas about how to do tasks in my experience, due more to Ti than Te.)
    I wasn't reading anything into your wording, "what to do" is very different from "how to do it". I really don't argue over the latter. I will just state the steps of what to do, and then either it gets done or have to push for it but then it's already the domain of "what to do". I don't discuss the "how" directly. I hope this clarifies.

    So as for what to do yeah... I've had arguments with IEIs there too very much in the fashion you describe. Exact same dynamics of differing Irrationality/Rationality. It's more often the area of opinions but some of the what to do too, except when they just do what I want lol.

    With the EIIs the dynamics is just different. Did that make sense?


    Sure, but as a whole Betas are much less avoidant than EIIs.
    That's not a very meaningful statement since "as a whole Betas" will include two extraverted types. Assertiveness belongs with extraversion. (And yeah you could argue that it's because it comes from Se in a higher position but I see that issue a bit more complex than that. Though yeah Se and Se valuing will add to it.) So not really a fair comparison between a more extraverted average of a group vs the introverted EII heh

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    sure it does, the other person is just a conduit... it goes to the nature of communicative space. its hard to conceive of certain forces extending beyond the borders in which they operate for us, but that is the whole point of socionics. if you subordinate socionics to a Ti impulse it loses its power because as a psychological theory its power is in its capacity to transcend and illuminate rather than simply capture other forms of experience. this is its "religious" side, or in less loaded terms its "humanitarian" aspect. in other words its ability to improve a person lies its in capacity to confer moral inspiration, which is the nature of "therapy" which is a form of human engineering. if the purpose becomes a form of self satisfaction in the form of Ti it loses its ability to move a person and simply becomes a rationalization for the world, not a real force for positive good in the lives of individuals. competing religions probably don't like this, which is precisely why they take issue with Jung in the first place. they want socionics to neatly explain only certain things and no more and be subordinate to a different collective ethic rather than be the source of a new one, but psychology resulted precisely because religion was insufficient. if religion could adequately fill that role psychology would never have developed
    So you're saying I have to start writing incomprehensible word salad that ultimately explains nothing (like you) to unlock the spiritual potential of socionics? Actually I find clear explanations are very helpful for spiritual development. And socionics happens to be completely compatible with Islam. "O mankind, fear your Lord, who created you from one soul and created from it its mate and dispersed from both of them many men and women."

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    And socionics happens to be completely compatible with Islam. "O mankind, fear your Lord, who created you from one soul and created from it its mate and dispersed from both of them many men and women."
    At best, it's about psychic complement of man + woman. Socionics is not linked to the sexes.
    I may only agree that the best conditions for the psychic union is a marriage pair.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    That would be because it's about Fi/Si specifically (more expressed by an IEI) and not Fe/Se (more expressed by an EIE).
    (I see your addition only now.) I think EIE is just more assertive with extraversion. I would rather not explain it randomly with this Fi/Si thing. Neither is even valued by IEI

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    (I see your addition only now.) I think EIE is just more assertive with extraversion. I would rather not explain it randomly with this Fi/Si thing. Neither is even valued by IEI
    It's not random - extroversion means bold Se.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    It's not random - extroversion means bold Se.
    Is it Fi/Si or is it lack of bold Se?...

    Seriously, I just think these nuances are not testable with our current tools and understanding available, and it's too easy to make the theory unfalsifiable this way.

    If you want to know what I referred to earlier about how I don't think it's as simple as extraverts having stronger Se on average compared to introverts - I think all extraverted IEs have to draw on something for their object orientation and for their orientation towards action that you might call an aspect of Se but 1) it's not Se the IE per se 2) this has nothing to do with Se's position in the function "stack".

  18. #1458
    thehotelambush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Is it Fi/Si or is it lack of bold Se?...
    Both - you either have bold Se or bold Fi/Si.

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    @thehotelambush

    Also, how are we to know it isn't that IEI's Ti HA just doesn't want more Ti? That'd have totally nothing to do with Fi/Si. Or how do we know the reason isn't that the EIEs make me present my thoughts differently due to the Fe influence? (Which btw is true, that I present them differently.) Also not all IEIs have a problem with the argumentativeness. It's just a tendency compared to most T types. And especially for female IEIs, so it's also gender/sex related.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Both - you either have bold Se or bold Fi/Si.
    But you first tried to explain it with Fi/Si, while IEIs don't even value those IEs. This was my point. Also another LSI may not have an issue even though they do not have bold Se.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    So you're saying I have to start writing incomprehensible word salad that ultimately explains nothing (like you) to unlock the spiritual potential of socionics? Actually I find clear explanations are very helpful for spiritual development. And socionics happens to be completely compatible with Islam. "O mankind, fear your Lord, who created you from one soul and created from it its mate and dispersed from both of them many men and women."
    yeah that's exactly what I'm saying

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    I think EIE is just more assertive with extraversion.
    also J helps
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    also J helps
    It does

  24. #1464
    All The Girls Gonna Be Okay
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    It's not random - extroversion means bold Se.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    Since this: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-of-the-Psyche

    @thehotelambush is most likely referring to the Bold/Cautious dichotomy of Model A, as organized in Figure 2 in the link to the article I provided. If this is the case, then yes, his statement that extroverts have Bold is correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avalonia View Post
    his statement that extroverts have Bold is correct.
    More assertive behavior can be explained by ways closer to the core theory with Jung's dichotomies. Introverts are shy and lesser care about external world - they are lesser attached to transform the external. P types are lesser stubborn, - they'll easier switch to other ways to solve the task and easier will switch to other task.

    The article you gave the link is not by Augustinavichiute. What she meant, the context she applied, did she kept that opinion later after the practice - is discussible. Her opinion has lesser priority than Jung's core theory, anyway.
    To use the term "correct" to anything Augustinavichiute wrote is baseless.
    Model A is hypothesis. You have to use it to name what you are doing as Socionics. But it's not obligate to use _all_ of it, as much of it is doubtful.

    For example, leading function is called as accepting to opposite of 2nd function called as producing. By such it can be understood like the leading(!) function does not create new information or does it much lesser than 2nd. It's senseless. The leading function does the most of the work, the stronger the valued function is - the more conscious interest you have to that region and more assured you are in own skills there -> the more new you'll do. So the terms are bad, at least, - they relate to the general situation where they are wrong.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    More assertive behavior can be explained by ways closer to the core theory with Jung's dichotomies.
    Exactly... I don't know why the fuck people forget to pay attention to being consistent with the fundamental principles first and foremost.


    Model A is hypothesis. You have to use it to name what you are doing as Socionics. But it's not obligate to use _all_ of it, as much of it is doubtful.

    For example, leading function is called as accepting to opposite of 2nd function called as producing. By such it can be understood like the leading(!) function does not create new information or does it much lesser than 2nd. It's senseless. The leading function does the most of the work, the stronger the valued function is - the more conscious interest you have to that region and more assured you are in own skills there -> the more new you'll do. So the terms are bad, at least, - they relate to the general situation where they are wrong.
    Oh hell yeah, these elaborate theories are full of bs nuances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Exactly... I don't know why the fuck people forget to pay attention to being consistent with the fundamental principles first and foremost.
    Probably, the wish to give "smarter" argumentation and such to add the weight to the words. By the additional comlexity and turbidity to make it harder to oppose to their opinion. N types may to have higher inclination to this.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

  29. #1469

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    Probably, the wish to give "smarter" argumentation and such to add the weight to the words. By the additional comlexity and turbidity to make it harder to oppose to their opinion. N types may to have higher inclination to this.
    Eh I just see it as them going down the rabbithole.

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    @Chae
    it's nice to see she have agreed with me
    "TIM EIE Sx/So 3w4 78"

    // stays on the watch to false deltas further

    @Bertrand
    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Bertrand was on but asked to be removed.
    +1 to introversion
    -1 to Ne ego
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

  31. #1471
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    I don't need a spreadsheet when I have you sol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    I don't need a spreadsheet when I have you sol
    other people need the spreadshit spreadsheet to easier find the truth about your type and how many ones are close to the truth
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    it would be interesting to see who all agrees with you and who is wrong

  34. #1474

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    // stays on the watch to false deltas further
    Until you off yourself. lol

  35. #1475
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    ehehe, spreadshit. :>


  36. #1476
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    This sounds like a job for a shit spreader.

  37. #1477

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    it would be interesting to see who all agrees with you and who is wrong
    just return your nick to the table to satisfy this interest
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    I still see @Bertrand as ESI-Fi btw

  39. #1479
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    bertrand is ISTP

    niffer is definitely a feeler

  40. #1480
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    when you say ISTP do you mean SLI or LSI

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