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  1. #1161

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avebury View Post
    Fact is, even Jung spoke of how we have a second function, introverted for extroverts and extroverted for introverts. No one is 100% objective world oriented or subjective world oriented. Extroverts don't get a free pass to ignore themselves and introverts don't get a free pass to ignore the traffic laws.
    Besides 2nd function, there is ID-block functions which are also used as shadow and have the opposite E/I than ego functions. We may do not concetrate our attention on ID, but it's assumed. When we analyse the links we assume the objects. When we think about objects we assume their context - the links.

    For example, to evaluate how pretty (Si) a woman is we assume her having objective physical traits (Se), the links between which make the impression of her being pretty. When we think about fact (Te), - we always relate it to some category (Ti) of objects to describe it, and this fact should to have some relation to us to be important so we could to think about it.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    well by that statement i mean everything we perceive is bound to our senses. we dont see objective reality, just an interpretation of it through our 5 senses. this means that we cannot perceive objective reality as it REALLY is. only as it shows to us. for example, our eyes cannot register Ultra violet or infra red radiation, but it still exists. therefore in reality the world should look different than how we perceive it. Just as the way a bat, through echolocation, sees the world in his way. thats what i mean ''by everything we perceive is subjective.''
    Bats are cool.

    I agree here, every person and animal perceives the objective world/universe from a different perspective, none of which is wholly objective. However, compile all those different subjective perspectives and we might get a true perception of objective reality, or something close (the nearest thing I can think of to the experience of being God would be perceiving the universe exactly as it is, from every perspective of every molecule in the cosmos (one unified perspective), but for us to experience that would likely overload our brains and senses). Sidenote - IIRC Kant referred to impressions of reality received via the senses as intuitions, but I'm not sure this would be the same as what Jung meant when he defined intuition

    And maybe we are just brains in jars, plugged into some VR matrix style world, but even if we aren't brains in jars, we still sort of are, because our senses are actually only giving us an impression of objective reality. I really need to reread the Cave allegory, I think it's the best idea to come out of the Socratic/Platonic school of philosophy
    Last edited by perpetuus; 04-13-2018 at 12:53 PM.

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    So much strife from a single word . Instead of saying objective and subjective when referring to the aspects, you can replace the terms with defined and undefined, explicit and implicit, external and internal etc. and it means the same thing. You could even use clear and fuzzy or other terms you like better.

    Reworded definitions of the aspects:

    Ti: Defined static connections between objects
    Fi: Undefined static connections between objects
    Si: Defined dynamic connections between objects
    Ni: Undefined dynamic connections between objects

    Te: Defined dynamics of objects
    Fe: Undefined dynamics of objects.
    Ne: Undefined statics of objects
    Se: Defined statics of objects

    In socionics aspects, extroversion/introversion doesn't mean external vs internal, it means objects vs fields. Fields are the spaces and connections between objects. All of the elements are mental processes that are represented by these aspects, so if you're concerned about an internal process being called "objective" then none of them can be. But object vs field or object vs spatial is a pretty well-known and studied topic outside of socionics. For example: LINK

    Anyway, the extroverted elements are focusing on the characteristics of individual objects and the introverted elements link objects together. The element definitions diverge from Jung and MBTI going more in a information processing direction, but some socionicists prefer to stick closer to Jung so you'll see different applications by author.

    edit:


    I personally think objective/subjective makes the definitions of the aspects more clear in many cases ie:

    Ti: objective static connections
    Fi: subjective static connections

    and

    Ne: subjective static characteristics of objects
    Se: objective static characteristics of objects

    and don't really see why this would upset anyone. . . but whatever.

  4. #1164
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    According Jung, introverted elements are subjective and extroverted are objective, by definition.

    Subjective concerns the individual...'Me in relation with/to'...so it loose sight of the extroverted reality to focus on the introverted one. Objective is the opposite, loosing sight of the individuality for the external reality.

    I don't keep track and havent been reading this conversation, I just wanted to comment on this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal View Post
    According Jung, introverted elements are subjective and extroverted are objective, by definition.
    Yes, the socionics aspects differ from Jung in this. Some authors (like Reinin) stick closer to Jung's usage in their descriptions and definitions.

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    and are abrupt internal IE's. and will dynamically adjust.

    happens when things flow inside of your head as perceived patterns [logical, emotional, etc]. You just let it flow. When it is valued person wants follow the flow. When not valued you intellectualize it [something will come along as it happens for others, nah it is not probable] or just ignore it.

    is the IE that tries to see external plausible connections. When it valued person wants to see other sides. When it is not valued person tries to cover it entirely from all sides and puts blinders on.
    Measuring you right now

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    and are abrupt internal IE's. and will dynamically adjust.

    happens when things flow inside of your head as perceived patterns [logical, emotional, etc]. You just let it flow. When it is valued person wants follow the flow. When not valued you intellectualize it [something will come along as it happens for others, nah it is not probable] or just ignore it.

    is the IE that tries to see external plausible connections. When it valued person wants to see other sides. When it is not valued person tries to cover it entirely from all sides and puts blinders on.
    Oh sigh. Alpha NTs always want to add Ti into Ne and combine the two into one. There aren't any connections in Ne, but you're right it is about seeing other sides. It's the alternatives, the could-bes the what-ifs, etc and so on.

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    I think ethical stuff can be about connections as well. I don't really know how to explain this, though. I'm not PoLR [in Socionics at least].
    Measuring you right now

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    I think ethical stuff can be about connections as well. I don't really know how to explain this, though. I'm not PoLR [in Socionics at least].
    Yes. All the introverted elements make connections.

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    Irrational elements can not function in vacuum. It is total void. It needs to be filled with judgment input.

    Rational elements would get totally stuck (low functioning irrational elements in right context).


    Low would not internalize sensations properly. Low would not externalize demand properly.
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  11. #1171
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    It didn't seem like strife to me, seemed like a good springboard into a philosophical discussion.

  12. #1172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    well by that statement i mean everything we perceive is bound to our senses. we dont see objective reality, just an interpretation of it through our 5 senses. this means that we cannot perceive objective reality as it REALLY is. only as it shows to us. for example, our eyes cannot register Ultra violet or infra red radiation, but it still exists. therefore in reality the world should look different than how we perceive it. Just as the way a bat, through echolocation, sees the world in his way. thats what i mean ''by everything we perceive is subjective.''
    Well...arguably there may not even be a 100% objective reality anyway because it could be said that reality is in constant change, where time is both defined and depends on how something changes with respect to something else. So our interpretation is in a way "objective" because it gives form to the nothingness of eternal and relative change (if you know what I mean anyway).

    Quote Originally Posted by Avebury View Post
    Do introverts have a free pass to drive past red lights?

    Also, are you actually implying homophobia is related to extroversion, lol?

    Fact is, even Jung spoke of how we have a second function, introverted for extroverts and extroverted for introverts. No one is 100% objective world oriented or subjective world oriented. Extroverts don't get a free pass to ignore themselves and introverts don't get a free pass to ignore the traffic laws.
    It's amazing how you managed to misinterpret everything I said.

    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    So much strife from a single word . Instead of saying objective and subjective when referring to the aspects, you can replace the terms with defined and undefined, explicit and implicit, external and internal etc. and it means the same thing. You could even use clear and fuzzy or other terms you like better.

    Reworded definitions of the aspects:

    Ti: Defined static connections between objects
    Fi: Undefined static connections between objects
    Si: Defined dynamic connections between objects
    Ni: Undefined dynamic connections between objects

    Te: Defined dynamics of objects
    Fe: Undefined dynamics of objects.
    Ne: Undefined statics of objects
    Se: Defined statics of objects

    In socionics aspects, extroversion/introversion doesn't mean external vs internal, it means objects vs fields. Fields are the spaces and connections between objects. All of the elements are mental processes that are represented by these aspects, so if you're concerned about an internal process being called "objective" then none of them can be. But object vs field or object vs spatial is a pretty well-known and studied topic outside of socionics. For example: LINK

    Anyway, the extroverted elements are focusing on the characteristics of individual objects and the introverted elements link objects together. The element definitions diverge from Jung and MBTI going more in a information processing direction, but some socionicists prefer to stick closer to Jung so you'll see different applications by author.

    edit:


    I personally think objective/subjective makes the definitions of the aspects more clear in many cases ie:

    Ti: objective static connections
    Fi: subjective static connections

    and

    Ne: subjective static characteristics of objects
    Se: objective static characteristics of objects

    and don't really see why this would upset anyone. . . but whatever.
    Not upset, it's just incredibly difficult to discuss things when we start with conflicting ideas and definitions. But your object vs field or object vs spatial sounds almost the same to extroversion vs introversion (if I understand that correctly), I just want people to be aware that introversion "internalizes" things, whereas extroversion deals with them more as they are, hence the objective/subjective talk. I mean Ti can be very abstract and applied to things like politics, where people can be put in groups and categorized depending on how they are viewed. Same thing with demographics and statistics and such. So I think I get what you mean by calling Ti objective, in the sense of someone coming up with a representation of reality that mirrors the scientific method, but Ti is not limited to such thinking and can be very abstract and thus very subjective, like all the introverted processes. I just think it needs to be said.
    good bye

  13. #1173
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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    The most recent one that reminded me of that LSE guy was this post - http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1266409 - he was in a similar kind of situation where he did a cost analysis on a purchase that his friend has made, which indicated to him that this wasn't a good purchase which he told to his friend and that spoiled his mood and got them into an argument. So the LSE guy felt lost as to what he has done and why his friend was upset with his +Te/-Si advice.
    I did this myself a few times, especially over artsy materials of which I knew the price, and then evaluated the costs of my friends' materials commenting how much less they could have spent if only they'd have gone in the right place or did not trust the first person they met... this was usually received badly bcoz those artsy stuff were very expensive and people don't like to be told they've wasted a good amount of money... anyway, I still feel bad about it thinking of this, both for them and me

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    I did this myself a few times, especially over artsy materials of which I knew the price, and then evaluated the costs of my friends' materials commenting how much less they could have spent if only they'd have gone in the right place or did not trust the first person they met...
    Closer people get ego functions the most. It appears to be not few, but almost always, when you know enough for the concrete theme.

    > this was usually received badly bcoz those artsy stuff were very expensive and people don't like to be told they've wasted a good amount of money... anyway, I still feel bad about it thinking of this, both for them and me

    A little of negative emotions reduced the chance for them to repeat the mistake.
    When you say what people dislike you make the relations worse, even when you help them. Sometimes they do not understand the degree you was right to be thankful, but even when understand - their irrational emotions act partly separately - the reason people like medics lesser. It needs to think twice what and how to say any criticism to make lesser emotional offence.
    When people take your opinion and dislike the situation where you are right - is not the worst. The most idiocy happens when people reject your opinion much because it's not pleasant for them, - that is more common for F types. You may give them argumentation which you understand is enough, but not - they do not agree or reject to think seriously about the said to them just because they do not like what you say or have offenced on you for this or anything else. It's like you need to talk with them like with kids, despite their real age.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    your first sentence is cracking me up

    you're describing subconscious Ti but refusing to admit socionics
    lol @ "admitting Socionics". It's like as if you just know that Socionics is this "absolute truth" or something. Well that is circular reasoning for you. How's that for your "subconscious Ti" (which is subjective, of course).
    Quote Originally Posted by A.Augustinavichiute
    The goal of our work is to try to penetrate into the models of the psyche projected by Jung, to show which positions and categories can be considered completely proved and irrefutable.
    https://translate.google.com/transla...t.html&prev=_t

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    hey put me back into your sig

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    Well anyway, there's probably no such thing as Te or Ti. Even more ridiculous is that there is a such thing as "Te", or "factual logic" (whatever that means), or that they could somehow access this "pure" "objective reality" "objective facts" "absolute truths" or something.

    But being a Te type or a "Te-valuer" just seems to be an excuse for not being able to think properly. That's why you have people like Bertrand, who seems to just memorize a lot of things, but not understand a whole lot. That's why he appears confused and incoherent most of the time, spouting incoherent nonsense after nonsense. His confusion comes from his lack of understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    lol @ "admitting Socionics". It's like as if you just know that Socionics is this "absolute truth" or something.
    He supposed something like "That's it's normally to admit what you are using. You have nothing to affraid. No one will blame you for that. Everyone uses Socionics here. You are among friends."
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    it is true that we are just one big happy family here on the16types.info.com.org.edu
    awldjkwepierpgokqweølfqøerlkfdaergnhtm¨å¨æ''-we-fqpoeufasdøflthøljwtlhkjrøtlhhhhhhhhhhsapfoeporipr
    "WELL I'M SORRY THAT I LIKE TO HAVE OPEN COMMUNICATION IN MY RELATIONSHIPS" - Galen 2k13

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    Quote Originally Posted by wasp View Post
    it is true that we are just one big happy family here on the16types.info.com.org.edu
    Cooking is so fun!
    Cooking is so fun~
    Now it's time to take a break and see what we have done. Teehee.
    ...Wait a second...
    What we're doing here isn't cooking at all...Hmmm
    "Lecteur, as-tu quelquefois respiré
    Avec ivresse et lente gourmandise
    Ce grain d'encens qui remplit une église,
    Ou d'un sachet le musc invétéré?


    Charme profond, magique, dont nous grise
    Dans le présent le passé restauré!
    Ainsi l'amant sur un corps adoré
    Du souvenir cueille la fleur exquise"
    Charles Baudelaire


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    Quote Originally Posted by Penny Dreadful View Post
    Cooking is so fun!
    Cooking is so fun~
    Now it's time to take a break and see what we have done. Teehee.
    ...Wait a second...
    What we're doing here isn't cooking at all...Hmmm
    this is what I imagine dwayne johnson was thinking whenever he asked "can you smell what the rock is cookin'?"
    awldjkwepierpgokqweølfqøerlkfdaergnhtm¨å¨æ''-we-fqpoeufasdøflthøljwtlhkjrøtlhhhhhhhhhhsapfoeporipr
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  22. #1182
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    Quote Originally Posted by wasp View Post
    this is what I imagine dwayne johnson was thinking whenever he asked "can you smell what the rock is cookin'?"
    I wonder if he says that after farting

  23. #1183

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    @Toynbee mb ILI
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    @Toynbee mb ILI
    The God has spoken.
    "Lecteur, as-tu quelquefois respiré
    Avec ivresse et lente gourmandise
    Ce grain d'encens qui remplit une église,
    Ou d'un sachet le musc invétéré?


    Charme profond, magique, dont nous grise
    Dans le présent le passé restauré!
    Ainsi l'amant sur un corps adoré
    Du souvenir cueille la fleur exquise"
    Charles Baudelaire


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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Well anyway, there's probably no such thing as Te or Ti. Even more ridiculous is that there is a such thing as "Te", or "factual logic" (whatever that means), or that they could somehow access this "pure" "objective reality" "objective facts" "absolute truths" or something.

    But being a Te type or a "Te-valuer" just seems to be an excuse for not being able to think properly. That's why you have people like Bertrand, who seems to just memorize a lot of things, but not understand a whole lot. That's why he appears confused and incoherent most of the time, spouting incoherent nonsense after nonsense. His confusion comes from his lack of understanding.
    I only appear confused or incoherent to you because if you were saying the things I'm saying there would be no understanding on your end underlying the statements. you're just projecting, a lot of people don't find me particularly confused, or if an issue is subsequently messed with its because the issue itself is complex and transforms in time, thus it is natural that opinions and perspectives on it would change. this idea that the only truths are eternal one and done statements is ridiculous, because on a long enough time line, even your vaunted (fantasy of) science can't live up to that standard. what is true today will be false tomorrow by your own criteria. the point is truth is in an ongoing state of development that can be evaluated as better or worse, but not in absolute terms. that is a kind of fascism. not only that but by your standard there is an inherent negativism that if you think hard enough about any given topic you will be able to dissolve it in much the same way you've taken aim at socionics. that is fine, because the world needs people to take pot shots (you remind me of this guy sometimes.. jabba + salacious crumb is like archetypal SLE + IEI dynamics), but you're just living out your destiny and it doesn't necessarily have to be that way

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    @Bertrand No, you're just confused. If not, then I hope that whatever nonsense that you're writing is parody.

    Understanding something means being able to explain it. Even better, if you could explain it simply, in your own words. But you just regurgitate a bunch of things in a chaotic and unconnected manner. It's like you don't quite see the connections, you don't understand things very well, just a lot of unconnected, memorized things flying around.

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    can you not see how you continually go in circles on the basis of "anyone who can't explain something to me in a way that I accept is confused?" its literally, "I set the standard for truth, and simply insult anyone that doesn't meet it" its all quite empty. its like literally anyone can say that, its just burden shifting that proves nothing and is only helpful inasmuch as perhaps it might stimulate someone to try harder out of concern for you, but at a certain point it becomes strangely tyrannical, and ultimately if you exhaust people's goodwill they will simply distance themselves from you and that is all you will have achieved. it makes me wonder, if you have it within your capacity to decide for everyone what is true or not, why aren't you revolutionizing the world with such a power? it seems like you're not even trying, content to simply claim superiority and do nothing with it

    at this point I'm really curious as to how long you can go on prosecuting this same tired point--forever?

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    I'm just saying that your thoughts appear to be chaotic and confused most of the time, Bertrand. Why does that bother you so much? Maybe because it's true. But don't worry, I think most of the people on the forum are that way.

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    my thoughts are chaotic and confused a lot of the time. the difference is I'm not beta and not afraid to admit it neither do I think I can pass off some opposite image or that there is profit in in any way being dishonest about my own limitations or the difficulties in life. its like a lot of what you're saying is misplaced simply because it assumes me to be some kind of SLE egomaniac, for whom such an accusation would cut deeply. denying these unavoidable aspects of humanity only make things worse. you can push them into the subconscious by only admitting as real the crystaline structure of Se + Ti, but the whole point is the rest of life gains its point either way, so you can either confront them forthrightly or let them dictate your destiny from the dark. they don't go away so much as you abdicate control over them while outwardly declaring victory. its all just a form of willful blindness

  30. #1190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    @Toynbee mb ILI
    Explain

  31. #1191

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    my thoughts are chaotic and confused a lot of the time. the difference is I'm not beta and not afraid to admit it neither do I think I can pass off some opposite image or that there is profit in in any way being dishonest about my own limitations or the difficulties in life. its like a lot of what you're saying is misplaced simply because it assumes me to be some kind of SLE egomaniac
    Right, and you were just denying that you were chaotic and confused. You keep changing your answer to not be proven wrong, so talking with you is pointless, since you lack even a basic kind of intellectual honesty.

    But honestly, okay, so you do admit that your thoughts are chaotic and confused. Then why don't you do something about that, before writing out your nonsense? Don't you maybe want to write in a lucid and concise manner? Don't you maybe want to check that you actually understand the topic that you're talking about, before you go on to write out a torrent of stream-of-consciousness like thoughts?

  32. #1192
    Bertrand's Avatar
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    well this could go on forever so I'm content to let what I perceive as your misconceptions stand, since anyone at this point who can't see them for what they are, is not someone who I'm particularly concerned with winning over; and I've certainly provided you with enough to go off of such that I'm content with having fulfilled my duty on that end

  33. #1193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Penny Dreadful View Post
    The God has spoken.
    What, is he the forum type guru? (Couldn’t tell whether you were being sarcastic)

  34. #1194

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toynbee View Post
    Explain
    your humour and... vibes
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

  35. #1195
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    I feel like we're suddenly whispering... so ominous...
    awldjkwepierpgokqweølfqøerlkfdaergnhtm¨å¨æ''-we-fqpoeufasdøflthøljwtlhkjrøtlhhhhhhhhhhsapfoeporipr
    "WELL I'M SORRY THAT I LIKE TO HAVE OPEN COMMUNICATION IN MY RELATIONSHIPS" - Galen 2k13

  36. #1196
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    Quote Originally Posted by wasp View Post
    I feel like we're suddenly whispering... so ominous...
    Lmao
    ~ ESTP ~ SLE ~ ESTp ~ Self-Pres 7w8 ~ Sp/Sx ~ Fire Element ~ Aries Sign ~ Beta Quadra ~ Gryffindor House ~ Summer Season ~ SLUEN ~

  37. #1197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    your humour and... vibes
    I can understand why I might 'vibe' like a Gamma NT but I think it's a false impression; But I'm open to the idea, if you care to elaborate or make a case for why you think I value Gamma IMs over those valued by Alpha types. If you don't mind, you can add the typing to the members' types spreadsheet.

  38. #1198

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toynbee View Post
    I can understand why I might 'vibe' like a Gamma NT but I think it's a false impression
    If there will be video-interview this may help to understand your type better.
    Also you may check IR test, mb this will show the possibilities for other types.

    > If you don't mind, you can add the typing to the members' types spreadsheet.

    I'm not sure still.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

  39. #1199
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    I'm just impressed by Toynbee's image switch *thumb up*

  40. #1200
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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    I'm just impressed by Toynbee's image switch *thumb up*
    That's basically my resting face. Everyone says I look like I'm frowning (or pissed off). "Cheer up!" "Smile more!"

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