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Thread: Your typing of forum members

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    you people are ridiculous

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    can anybody tell me how he values Fi?

    establishing boundaries, stating sentiments, judging character, individualistic/humanistic attitudes...all of these things range from either stuff he's completely deaf to and just doesn't hear or care about, or stuff he views as contemptible or stupid, afaict.

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    nah you see its generational, he's just old fashioned

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    I don't mean when he's grandstanding for social points, like above. I mean in his real-time interactions and the way he responds to those things from others.

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    oh yeah mean kind of how anti Fi it is to in fact wear two or more hats depending on what is going on

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    you people are ridiculous
    What are you triggered now? lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    nah you see its generational, he's just old fashioned
    Have you read the older socionics articles or those written by older people? I know you have...

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    can anybody tell me how he values Fi?

    establishing boundaries, stating sentiments, judging character, individualistic/humanistic attitudes...all of these things range from either stuff he's completely deaf to and just doesn't hear or care about, or stuff he views as contemptible or stupid, afaict.
    Maybe the question is, is all of that Fi? Fi is about the energy of interactions. To put it in simple terms of my Fi mobilizing, it's about feeling close to someone, or people. IE the energy of interactions, are we close? Or far.

    The stuff you describe, *might,* be Fi, but *really* it's also about culture, personal upbringing, values adopted. It's Fi in a way, but also you get Fi types who can behave in objectively despicable ways, because their upbringing and conventions are different.

    Or, they are just... ima - toore

    It's a problem that's happened with socionics overall. Once we keep going, we can't help typing on grapevine behaviors primarily before functions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    I don't mean when he's grandstanding for social points, like above. I mean in his real-time interactions and the way he responds to those things from others.
    TBH, no. The way he describes himself irl does not match up to how he is on the forum either though so who knows? He self types an 8 sx/so but some people here see him as a 9. Others type him sx last. Maybe those who talk to him a lot may be able to point it out.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    uh no there are structural features to Fi valuing, its not simply being whatever you were raised to be. In fact conformity to environment in terms of value is likely Fe valuing. Of course I could see how you conflate the two given that you are in all likelihood a Fe valuer. At the very least Fi tends to know they're loyal to people not ideas, which is something conspicuously on display here, but totally lost on most people I can tell

    wanting to "feel close to people" is a universal human value, its opposite is loneliness. it is how you go about deriving what that closeness is and what you identify with it. notice Ti Ne types and their waifus etc. "closeness" is a psychological value that people attribute "he must lonely" based on projections on their behavior which may or may not apply, etc. you have these people falling in love with AIs feeling closeness like never before, and it only has to do with Fi in the most oblique way. its actually not really about people per se, notice SLI and dogs or whatever. the point is closeness is universal and subjective; no man is an island

    this place is ridiculously shallow, so its funny the authoritative tone people take on. its like you don't realize you people aren't very smart. you think "winning" some slapfight over Adam means anything where even if you "win" you only played yourselves. anyway carry on

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    OK.

    LIE is presented as follows: . For LIE would be even harder than . However the valuing part comes from responsiveness to it. Like being serial dater. You should understand difference between super-ego and super-id.

    I'd actually except LIE problems to be manifested here more clearly than in PoLR types.
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    that's just a shitty post hoc rationalization. most LIEs are very conservative when it comes to Fi, they're oriented toward ESI, remember?

    compulsive womanizing is more like Fe mobilizing. its why xEI sets themselves up the way they do. in order to lock a mate down they rely on either Si or Ni to create structure and stability in time for lack of Fi

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    Did I say that it was due to womanizing?

    Think what ESI provides. ESI sets up those boundaries.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    TBH, no. The way he describes himself irl does not match up to how he is on the forum either though so who knows? He self types an 8 sx/so but some people here see him as a 9. Others type him sx last. Maybe those who talk to him a lot may be able to point it out.
    I just thought he was some probably overworked guy trying to develop himself and move on to something new. Someone who's 20 or 30 will view the world differently than someone in yet a further age group, or maybe I just woke up to captain obvious. All very (adam) strange.

    Oh, and now I am out

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    Did I say that it was due to womanizing?

    Think what ESI provides. ESI sets up those boundaries.
    are you stupid? replace "womanizing" with "serial dater"--does it make any difference? no? then why act as if it does?

    that's what so stupid about this place, people spend more time trying to score imaginary points then getting at what matters. the silly thing is you can all just jerk eachother off by playing this game forever but it goes nowhere. I stand by my conviction its just a relatively clustered group of types all playing make believe and have found typology to be useful toward that end. that Adam is the wedge acting as the front line in order to preserve this fantasy is as SLE as it gets. anyway ya'll a bunch of inbreds, pretending to be special while missing most your teeth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    OK.

    LIE is presented as follows: . For LIE would be even harder than . However the valuing part comes from responsiveness to it. Like being serial dater. You should understand difference between super-ego and super-id.

    I'd actually except LIE problems to be manifested here more clearly than in PoLR types.
    Receptiveness to it is exactly what I was referring to. If anything he seems too confident in that area to be responsive to it from others. For example, pushing people to be closer when they've tried to create distance or lecturing people on moral issues. When information to the contrary is presented to him in these areas, he doesn't hear it or care about it like I would expect an Fi suggestive to.

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    This is probably dangerous territory because I don't want to be "mean" again. I'm just saying what I see because I don't get what other people are seeing. I don't necessarily think he's SLE either.

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    IEE or LII IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    are you stupid? replace "womanizing" with "serial dater"--does it make any difference? no? then why act as if it does?
    Really? Inability to find stability which could also refer to wrong kinds of people and unfavorable conditions. You can not really put such conclusion on things when you do not know mechanisms how they fail.
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    When you talk in the third person, it is difficult to be certain about who I am referring to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    Really? Inability to find stability which could also refer to wrong kinds of people and unfavorable conditions. You can not really put such conclusion on things when you do not know mechanisms how they fail.
    this is the guy who claims to be a type 8 but has "overcome" it (which is why he acts nothing like one--also I'd like to add enneagram is presumably the most difficult thing bar none to "conquer"), yet your theory relies on him being so self frustrating that he can't get a relationship even though its the thing he wants most. at the end of the day, he could buy one, which I've suggested in the past. the point is none of it adds up, your entire reasoning is predicated on justifying the limited set of facts rightin front of you, while forgetting the larger picture. why? because you play games, this entire thing is just a meta game to you, which is sad, because it you don't understand that it helps no one and there is more at stake than the small amount of joy you get from typing away

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    When you talk in the third person, it is difficult to be certain about who I am referring to.
    it's me. I'm LII.

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    Default ESIs are great for LIEs because LIEs must face their own fears and excesses and insufficiencies to make it work

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    that's just a shitty post hoc rationalization. most LIEs are very conservative when it comes to Fi, they're oriented toward ESI, remember?

    compulsive womanizing is more like Fe mobilizing. its why xEI sets themselves up the way they do. in order to lock a mate down they rely on either Si or Ni to create structure and stability in time for lack of Fi
    LIE is DEFINITELY capable of manizing or womanizing.



    There's even socionics literature about how stimulation- and new-focused we are and about how sometimes we commit too early to someone with good intentions to be their partner but later find ourselves in love for the first time with someone else. NO, we aren't by nature going to be unfaithful. AND we aren't by nature going to be faithful.
    DO we have a proclivity for certain actions or situations or experiences? FUCK YES.



    wikisocion articles:"A time falls to extreme in relation to bad habits: either he openly engages and flaunts them, or he actively counters and fights against them. These extremes apply to his sexual life.

    LIE interacts with other people at close psychological distances. Democratic. Predisposed towards positive attitude and friendliness on his territory. Feels relaxed in an atmosphere of warm, sincere, soulful communication. One should settle disagreements with him in an informal atmosphere, first persuading him of good intentions. He is much in need of reliable, stable human relations. Due to his inability to immediately recognize falsity can allow himself to get drawn into poor company and questionable enterprises. Appreciates reliable, time-tested friends. Usually aware that he can be too insensitive and inattentive in relation to others and is wary of this trait in himself. Ruining his relations with someone searches for methods to make amends. To this end, gives gifts or shows a particular concern for his partner.

    Becomes active in extreme situations. Able to stand up for himself. Rejects emotional pressuring. He is directed by the desire to direct, to lead, to achieve his goals using other people to this purpose. However, he is adept at directing only those who are of the same mind as him. In moments of emotional uplifts, he feels himself a strong personality, capable of resolving any problems. However, if he doesn't find emotional support, his fighting spirits quickly dwindle. Bold in romantic matters. Enjoys some measure of competition. Venturesome and persistent if he is being turned down and resisted. Likes to throw a challenge. A life that is calm, even, and unemotional makes him soft, clumsy, and ridiculous"



    AND


    "However, the LIE is no in hurry to succumb to the growing sense of closeness (dual unity). Feeling ESI's increasing affection and attachment to him, the LIE begins to feel himself an "object of pursuit" or "hunt", which he, as a strategic declaring type, cannot permit. In relation to the ESI he starts to behave himself akin to a "wild horse" - he doesn't allow the ESI to take the upper hand, doesn't permit to tame himself. If the ESI turns out to be a very tenacious and clinging person, the LIE tries to induce jealousy: finds himself new "favorites", spreads himself out on taking care of them, makes expensive presents for others, extends for them a lucrative offer (the same one that the ESI has been waiting from him for a long time). The LIE demonstratively turns away from the ESI and lavishes others with his attention: he takes care of other members of his team, listens to and takes their advice, creates and impression that he has subjected himself to the influence of others (meanwhile glancing at Dreiser, watching how he is reacting to this). The sole purpose of all these manipulations and games is to make the ESI feel like one of many, to make him "get in line" instead of demanding all the recognition for his own person. The ESI ignores all this demonstrative "acting out" of the LIE. He feels offended and upset, of course, but still he won't join the general line with an outstretched hand and wait for LIE's handouts.

    The LIE realizes that his relations (or romance) with ESI may extend to a long period of time and turn into deep and very serious involvement. Such relations scare Jack (on his weak suggestive function of ethics of relations, +Fi). Therefore, it is precisely towards the ESI that upon increasing closeness and emotional attachment the LIE can display deliberate indifference and alienation and treat the ESI a lot worse than others: he provokes, insults, talks back, pokes and prods, vexes over trifles, and does not allow the ESI to "tame" him. The LIE is very afraid of treachery and betrayal, of new disappointments in a close friend, and therefore he tries to scare and alienate the ESI in whom he sees a loyal partner and friend - just in case the LIE shows himself from his worst sides.

    And then the LIE receives the due negative response from the ESI. Ignoring the psychological underpinnings of all of this (also to spite his dual!) Dreiser responds to the actual facts of Jack's ethical games and manipulations (which the ESI has been observing): to an offense he responds with alienation and distancing, to sharp attacks - by being offended. If relations enter a critical phrase, the ESI is the first to break them: he distances from the LIE to a maximum distance and cuts all contact with him. For ESI is a maximalist when it comes to relations: it's either all or nothing for him - either he will be LIE's one and only companion, or he will forget all about him and his "team". But Jack doesn't need one and only companion. He needs many companions, who would stand at their posts and do what has been given to them."



    AND

    "Sometimes, after a year or two of such "disappearances", the ESI learns from a mutual acquaintances that the LIE was actively looking for him. (Sometimes the LIE turns to the ESI himself, other times he sends "messengers".) But if the relationship has "expired", hasn't been renewed and re-activated for a long period of time, because the LIE was too busy with something else, or didn't need it, the ESI does not return to his dual and does not respond to his calls, even if he still feels an emotional attachment, simply because he doesn't wish to be "one of many" inconspicuous and insignificant companions in LIE's life. He does not want to return to this "whirlwind carnival", to this "comedy of masks", doesn't want to be another puppet in the hands of his dual and yet another object of his manipulations. He doesn't want these cheap, mockingly businesslike and half-fake relations. He doesn't want to be the one who is constantly duped and played, who is simply used and drawn into playing a double game where objective relations are substituted for friendly ones for the purpose of never being accountable for anything, while getting everything "for free" and always being in the win. The ESI becomes tired of this injustice. He cannot and does not want to simply put up with it, neither does he want to indulge and promote it - this would be against his "program" ("a measure for measure").

    The LIE, who is consumed by his enthusiastic search for better alternatives, typically treats the ESI as a person "to whom one can always get back", who "won't go/disappear anywhere", and who will always forgive him. But about this he is mistaken. Dreiser does not respect (to put it mildly) people who are ungrateful. Ingratitude is one of the the greatest sins in his understanding. He doesn't make amends with ingratitude coming from his dual, because this constitutes another deep disappointment for him in relations with a close and dear person, and also because it lowers ESI's self-esteem by dealing a blow to his point of least resistance (+Ne). That is, instead of the expected support of his "area of insecurity and fear", the ESI receives quite the opposite treatment. The ESI won't tolerate neglectful and dismissive attitude towards himself, he won't serve as a "whipping boy" for his dual, and he doesn't recognize anyone's command over him. While fighting with one's dual is same as fighting with oneself: striking and hurting him at the same time you will suffer yourself.

    Dreiser becomes tired of the endless and blatant exploitation. Tired of this motley comedy of masks in which he plays the role of an ever faithful and forgiving Piero. Here Dreiser may leave Jack and never return back to him, no matter how much he asks for it, no matter what messengers he sends. If Dreiser has decided to leave - it will be forever. Jack also understands this, but then again prefers to act from a position of a search for alternatives (-Te) - if he has a way of getting around without ESI, or substituting him with someone else, he will do so. If there is a way to make him come back - then he will use it. If persuasions do not help, the LIE acts from a position of force, pressing ahead by an onslaught or a sudden advance. He can also act from the position of limiting the ESI's options and possibilities, up to the point of locking him within four walls, leaving him in isolation, dependent on his "goodwill". At this phase of confrontation of wills, the ESI is afraid of making any concessions, expecting the LIE to take them for granted and devalue them (to not feel in debt). The ESI is afraid that the LIE will "steamroll" him while paving the way in direction that he himself needs (as is characteristic of declaring strategic types) and won't even remember about his dual, whom he lost somewhere along the road, "pressed into the ground", and didn't even notice it."



    AND

    "Relations in this dyad cannot successfully develop of LIE's behavior on the aspects of ethics emotions (-Fe) and ethics of relations (+Fi) does not meet certain standards.

    Is this important for ESI? This is important for their dualization. Deviations from standards on these two aspects work according to the "domino principle", creating a series of obstacles and distortions in interaction of partners and a background of tension in their relations.

    For example, if LIE is not up to standard on his role and suggestive aspects, the ESI may start experiencing a strong distaste for him and not want to have anything to do with him. And then any of LIE's attempts to reduce the distance ESI will cut off. The LIE feeling antipathy instead of the expected support on vulnerable and activating aspects, will feel a blow to his weaker aspects - he will feel himself unloved, unpleasant, unattractive. Then, as a response measure, he will begin to terrorize the ESI by all available means. Once the LIE becomes "activated" over his immature "touchy" functions, he will have a hard time stopping. The ESI will have to defend from these sudden attacks on himself (the ESI is the type of person who strikes back at his offenders).

    Feeling the alienation and detachment of the ESI, the LIE becomes even more aggressive (he feels offended: he has been neglected) and actively goes on the offensive. During this time, he looks very unattractive in his dual's eyes (not scary, but unattractive). With such development of events, the LIE has virtually no chance of positively predisposing the ESI towards himself: the ESI will feel irritated by his declarative uninhibitedness and lack of restraint over sensorics (-Se), worried by the tension over ethics of emotions (-Fe) and his greed over vulnerable function (+Si) (the declaratim grip on sensing of experiences). The ESI will be put off by LIE's desire to arrange his affairs at the expense of others, by his excesses, avarice, brutal, declaratim onslaught and pressuring, in conjunction with strategic excitement which translates into "hounding" a person by means of "paddock hunt" - all of these qualities look very unattractive, alarming, and even repulsive to the ESI (who likes to feel him/herself as the subject of persecution?).

    Seeing this, the LIE attacks the ESI with even greater excitement and increases his terror ("war is war"). Attracting and endearing the ESI under such development of events is not possible for him, no matter what he undertakes: the more fierce and aggressive LIE's attacks - the stronger the rebuff that he gets from his dual (+Se).

    The LIE makes a mistake in believing that the quickest way to win the favor of his dual is to try to "steamroll" him with all his might, to suppress his will, to subdue him by force, to break his resistance ("to crush and grind into powder"). With such an approach he only sets the ESI further against himself, leads relations into a dead end by driving them into such a deep crisis from which it's not possible to return.

    Why is all this fighting and confrontation even necessary for them? Wouldn't it be better to exist in peace? For the decisive quadra types, it is characteristic to arrange for such "trial" ritual confrontation upon meeting one another, as this, for example, happens in the dyads LSI-EIE and ILI-SEE - and this dyad is no exception. The LIE sometimes wants to express himself aggressively towards his dual - to assume a fighting stance, to stomp his feet and swing his fists. After all, the LIE is a declaring, strategic, decisive, extravert who becomes activated on the aspect of volitional sensing.

    And so he finds a worthy opponent in the face of the ESI? He does, but he wouldn't look for this if he knew the extent to which the ESI does not need this. The ESI, after all, is an ethical introvert. To obtain his positive consideration one needs to:

    Show that one is capable of self-possession, self-restraint, and patience - all of this is interpreted by ESI as manifestation of willpower; be able to manage their emotions (meet the normatives) be friendly, responsive, empathetic; on the suggestive aspect of ethics of relations trust ESI's opinions and judgments, rely on his honesty and dedication, be able to accept the conditions on which ESI insists controlling the situation on the aspect of ethics of relations, trust in ESI's innate understanding on this aspect - for him this is very important.

    What about the famous "severity" of the ESI for which this type is considered once of the most brutal ones in the entire socion? Or is this a myth that was invented by his conflictors? The so-called "severity" of ESI is an "emergency program" or "program of emergency protection" which gets "turned on" in cases that his person or the lives of the people close to him are faced by some real and significant danger. The ESI never overestimates such dangers, but due to his "carefree" trait he is prone to understimating them. His notorious "severity" is rarely extended to his partner without a good reason. Such reason may be if the LIE constitutes a danger to himself, to Dreiser, to his family and close ones, or when he is betraying his own principles and values and those of his dyad.

    Is this possible? It is possible that the LIE is an alcoholic, a gambler, a drug addict who got drawn into some bad venture or fell under some destructive influence. The "severity" of Dreiser may be directed at Jack when he becomes an "alien" partner who is destroying his own family. But even in this case ESI's "severity" don't help the LIE to get himself together and clean up his act, and therefore the ESI usually directs it not at his dual but at those whom he sees as getting his partner into this mess and supporting his self-destructive habits. This is in part because the LIE in such a state doesn't hear his partner - he becomes unavailable for communication, unfit for normal conversation, invents excuses for himself, remains silent, leaves the house grabbing anything within his reach - he "works" for his illness. But there have been cases when even in such situations the ESI partners did not leave their duals but fought for their lives to the end. Only when the LIE himself rejects his dual, under another's advice or due to circumstances where he supposedly makes an independent choice - only then does the ESI really leave him. And again, only if he's unable to affect and change the circumstances."

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    good thing troll wasn't talking about womanizing

    (the whole point is ESI has exaggerated notions on the topic, and LIE is receptive to it, but "womanizing" in that context is privately defined within the dyad; by all objective notions LIE is less wandering (although they joke) than most types, precisely for the foregoing reason, they sincerely aspire to more). sure sign of LIE is they talk a lot about sex but have been dating the same woman for 10 years since high school and have never cheated
    Last edited by Bertrand; 01-04-2018 at 07:10 PM.

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    All I can say that IRL I might act as I don't give rat's ass about relations – PoLR putting more importance on side of things. Pissing off people by not kissing their behinds and making no exceptions.
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
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    there are two ways to go down when wrong

    "I may be wrong but.."

    1) I didn't kiss anyone's ass

    2) I did it out of sincere care for the people I love

    guess which is better, if you have to be wrong

    this should be on a socionics test

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    A person can still provide help without ass kissing by prioritizing things based on objective needs.
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
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    news flash, no one thinks they're ass kissing

    Te builds in objectivity to the thinking process, the rest is just self awareness as to the why. If you think Fi is just lying to people in order to "help" them, well I don't blame you cause that's exactly what Fe looks like to me. Objective needs = emotions is so lol to me I can't even. its funny cause thats exactly what kissing ass is, you're literally kissing everyone's ass and calling it no ones. well anyway, from my point of view. I know opinions differ, and good for that

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    this place is ridiculously shallow, so its funny the authoritative tone people take on. its like you don't realize you people aren't very smart. you think "winning" some slapfight over Adam means anything where even if you "win" you only played yourselves. anyway carry on
    This version seems fitting for you.



    You are truly a battletype hero of this forum. Your first mistake is thinking that there can be a winner in this whole thing but I am sure you always feel like a real winner. You change your attitude toward most people based on your self typing du jour...

    LOL, yes this is your style, insult the intelligence of others because you feel you know more than all of us. You speak in an authoritative tone quite often. Good thing you discovered in another thread that you are most likely projecting when you say things like this. You are one of the most shallow here if you want to get right down to it. You and your Fe hate should be a meme on how hate is socially spread in these forums by now except it is not just Fe you are hating on. You also hate on Fi and Ni. You are one of the people I consider to be ignorant of what is Fi and what is Fe based on the posts you make.

    Let's try it this way since Jung may be too difficult for you. Yeah that was a dig considering you are taking jabs at people for not being smart enough today.


    Introverted Ethics (Fi)

    Introduction to

    Introverted ethics is an introverted, rational, and static information element. It is also called Fi, R, relational ethics, or white ethics. Fi is generally associated with the ability to gain an implicit sense of the subjective 'distance' between two people, and make judgments based off of said thing. Types with valued Fi strive to make and maintain close, personal relationships with their friends and family. They value sensitivity to others' feelings, and occasionally will make their innermost feelings and sentiments known in order to test the possibility of creating closeness with others.Also, these types convey emotions in terms of how they were affected by something (such as "I did not like that"), rather than an extroverted ethics (Fe) approach that would describe the object itself without clear reference to the subject involved (such as "That sucked"). Much of their decisions are based on how they themselves, or others in relation to them personally, feel in contrast to considering how "the big picture" is affected (such as groups of people).

    Fi as Leading Function

    The individual sees reality primarily through static personal ethics and stable interpersonal bonds between individuals, including himself, where the status of such interpersonal bonds is determined by his personal ethics. The individual is very confident in evaluating the ethical or moral qualities, and their consistency, of other people. This makes the individual seem "judgemental" or "self-righteous" to people less so inclined. If he has difficulty in deciding the status of a personal relationship, he will take action to try to reach a conclusion but if that continues to elude him, he will regard the relationship as not worth it. His own sense of constancy in personal ethics and in his relationships with others is a very strong factor in his sense of self-worth. Fi in this position implies the ability to almost instantly recognize whether someone is a friend or an enemy, whether they are demonstrating good will or ill will, and whether they are drawn to or repelled by the individual.

    Fi as Creative Function

    The individual is very adept at perceiving, establishing, and maintaining personal bonds between people. However, these bonds are often perceived as being situational and flexible rather than static. The individual is inclined to focus on establishing personal bonds with other people in the context of realizing or following perceptions from his base function. The person easily creates a sense of closeness and kinship between people by expressing like and acceptance, but these sentiments are situational rather than an expression of permanent feelings. If the person's mood or external situation changes, he or she may "turn off" the feelings instantly, even forgetting whom they had created the feeling of kinship with.

    Fi as Role Function

    The individual recognizes the existence and importance of personal relationships, so he is usually cautious at first about offending others if he does not know them well. To minimize this risk he adheres somewhat simplistically to the relevant social conventions (e.g. political correctness). However, if taken too far this produces stress, as it inhibits his natural introverted logic (Ti) inclination to voice exactly what his thoughts are on a given issue or situation, with the expectation that others will appreciate his straightforwardness, rather than accusing him of being insensitive. This caution gradually disappears as he gets to know people better. He prefers to develop relationships indirectly with others based on open conversation and common activities, and only reveals his innermost personal feelings to those he has known for a long time. He may become confused and suspicious if they are directly solicited by others.

    Fi as Vulnerable Function

    The individual does not normally pay attention to the nuances of interpersonal relationships; he is either overly suspicious or overly assuming of his relations with others when they are not clearly defined. More importance is given to these relations as they pertain to objective mutual benefit; entertaining one another and accomplishing mutual goals are seen as the main focus, rather than seeing the relationships as rewarding in and of themselves. The individual does not expect others to be actively aware or concerned with his own personal sentiments, and so sees little reason to be concerned with those of others, unless they have direct consequences for the individual. Statements by other persons reflecting their inner feelings are not fully registered by the individual if not accompanied by external emotional expression or actions. Suggestions that the individual may have acted unethically in the eyes of another person who has not clearly expressed disapproval are met with bafflement by the individual; those that are expressed without tact are either dismissed or reacted to aggressively. Expressions of deep personal sentiments are awkward for the individual, whether coming from another or himself. He does not see it as his "right" to place the burden of his true emotions on another, both because he knows how uncomfortable those of others make him (even when they are positive and genuine), and because of his own awkwardness in expressing them.

    Fi as Suggestive Function

    The individual longs for close personal relationships where personal and private experiences can be shared easily in an atmosphere of mutual trust, sustained by shared sentiments and ethical beliefs that make external expression of emotions unnecessary. The individual is inclined to take first steps, but he is not confident of his ability to correctly evaluate the existence or status of such a relationship and therefore is attracted to persons who value clear and unambiguous personal relationships with others and who follow a clear set of ethical principles, which gives them credibility and makes them deserving of trust in the individual's eyes.The individual tends not to consider whether people are friends or enemies or whether they feel good will or ill will towards them. Instead, he or she usually acts right from the start as if the other person were a friend or an enemy based on their prior knowledge of what the person does. This makes it possible to mistake a friend for an enemy and vice versa. Only gradually does the individual come to recognize what feelings others have for him, and there is always an element of doubt unless others express those feelings verbally and unambiguously and act in a way that clearly matches their stated feelings, over a sufficient period of time. The individual is easily made insecure about the status of personal relationships and needs frequent reassurance that the other person's feelings have not changed.The individual is sheepish about expressing his personal feelings about people ("I find you really interesting" or "I like you a lot"), but responds very well to these statements, as if they were unexpected treats. Instead, the person tends to focus on whether others' behavior makes sense or not.

    Fi as Mobilizing Function

    The individual longs for establishing stable personal relationships with other individuals based on mutual trust and understanding where deeper and private feelings and experiences can be easily shared. However, the individual lacks the initiative to establish such relationships and usually expects others to make gestures in that area, admiring those who do so. In the context of extroverted ethics (Fe) as a vulnerable function, it should be emphasized that these types especially value emotional bonds where feelings go unsaid between partners, and are simply "understood."

    Fi as Ignoring Function

    This is manifested as a skepticism about, or reluctance to decide on, the status of a deeper personal bond in a relationship between two individuals in the absence of signs in external emotional expression that should reflect that status. For instance, the individual will be inclined to regard as "loveless" or lukewarm the relationship of a couple who do not obviously display their mutual affection and remain rather subdued in their emotions in the presence of others. The individual understands discussions or explorations of one's own inner feelings regarding other individuals but finds them less interesting and relevant than those focusing on one's emotional state in the same situation.

    Fi as Demonstrative Function

    The individual is quite adept at understanding the interactions in personal bonds between two individuals, even in the absence of an obvious external emotional expression; but he is inclined to regard them as of lesser importance, and less interesting, than the broader emotional interactions in the context of a larger group. Moreover, those personal bonds are perceived as situational and dynamic rather than static.




    Extroverted Ethics (Fe)

    Introduction to

    Extroverted ethics is an extroverted, rational, and dynamic information element. It is also called Fe, E, the ethics of emotions, or black ethics. Fe is generally associated with the ability to recognize and convey (i.e. make others experience) passions, moods, and emotional states, generate excitement, liveliness, and feelings, get emotionally involved in activities and emotionally involve others, recognize and describe emotional interaction between people and groups, and build a sense of community and emotional unity.Types that value Fe like creating a visible atmosphere of camaraderie with other people. They enjoy a loose atmosphere where anything goes, where people don't have to watch too carefully what they say for fear of offending others. This means these types try not to be too thin-skinned, taking jokes with a grain of salt. However, they are very conscious of the fact that the way something is said is very important to how it will be received, so they tend to add emphasis, embellishments, and exaggerations here and there to keep people engaged. The best way to say something is highly dependent on the situation and the implied purpose of the exchange, so of course levity is not appropriate in some situations.Even after explosive arguments, these types find it hard to hold grudges, and can tolerate people they in principle don't like, as long as the situation is primarily social and doesn't require too close contact. They prefer misgivings to be out in the open; they believe that the silent treatment is one of the worst things you can do to a person, and only aggravates the underlying problem.

    Fe as Leading Function

    The individual is always in tune to the emotional flow surrounding him, and responds to it spontaneously and directly. He seeks out and creates activities where people are totally engaged in what they are doing. Something's value is directly tied to how much it arouses his or another's passion. He is highly proactive about steering the emotional flow in the direction he himself considers ideal to a given situation. He may, for example, try to cheer people with jokes if he sees that they are too gloomy or, conversely, to get people to be serious and concentrated if they are too carefree during a crisis situation. Nevertheless, he believes emotions should be expressed as honestly as possible.

    Fe as Creative Function

    The person is sensitive to the emotional atmosphere around him, either from an individual, or a group, or even from inanimate objects such as the landscape, the state of the physical environment he happens to be in, or his own emotional associations with the place or people around him. A positive emotional atmosphere is essential for his sense of well being and inner peace, and he either tries to promote it himself by directly influencing it around him, or by simply moving away from the environment or the people causing a negative emotional environment in his view.For the SEI, this takes an on-the-spot aspect and is reflected in cracking jokes, trying to make people laugh, or simply moving away from people he perceives as affecting him negatively. For the IEI, this takes a longer-term perspective; so the focus, rather than being on the immediate emotional environment, is on the perceived longer-term emotional state of others towards the individual, and is reflected in trying to be on good terms with those he interacts with or seeking distance or protection from, or "preventively" attacking, those he sees as irremediably hostile emotionally. <-- I see you as "irremediably hostile emotionally" toward me and have for a long time so it should be no surprise how I respond to you and will continue respond to you for the immediate future. This is not a quadra thing. This is a you thing. You have done it to lots of people even those in your quadra. It has something to do with your type du jour. Like now you are trying to suck up to sol and play kissy face. Before it was the the newer guy who types ILI. I have not been around enough to see what kind of antics you have been up to lately. Funny it is mostly men. Only a handful of women you suck up to. You turn on most of them eventually.

    Fe as Role Function

    The individual makes an effort to adapt to the prevailing emotional atmosphere, especially in group situations, and tries to promote a positive emotional environment, as in making positive or witty remarks, in the presence of individuals he is already somewhat acquainted with and appreciates. Such efforts, however, are normally low-key and of short duration; it is difficult for him to display emotions more complex or intense than enthusiasm. He is essentially unable to participate in a group atmosphere where intense emotional expression as in loud laughing and mutual jokes are prevailing. The individual makes an effort to be aware of the need not to disrupt the prevailing emotional atmosphere but he does not succeed for any length of time if that would clash with his inner emotional state and private feelings about the other persons present. A typical example is the person who, in a group of people exchanging pleasantries and casual conversation, will occasionally correct erroneous statements made by others, in a way that can be perceived as annoying, despite otherwise making an effort to abide by the prevailing emotional atmosphere.

    Fe as Vulnerable Function

    The individual tries hard to never let himself "come apart at the seams" emotionally or even let out strong feelings publicly, because displays of passion do not come naturally and make him feel self-consciousness and vulnerable to painful criticism. This makes the individual generally seem emotionally neutral and politely indifferent to excitement and agitation around him. The individual deeply dislikes attempts by others to get him to "cheer up" or "join the fun", especially in the context of group activities with loud emotional expression.

    Fe as Suggestive Function

    The individual often becomes engrossed in serious work, which leads him to neglect his complementary need for fun and emotional release. He also feels vulnerable expressing himself spontaneously in public, which allows bad emotions and stress to build up, leading to depression or sudden hostility. He enjoys being around people who make him feel comfortable expressing himself, and who can make every day new and exciting. Although he may present a hard exterior in the company of strangers, he is likely to not be serious at all with people who know him better. His behavior changes radically - a calm and serious structured person will suddenly become jovial and warm.

    Fe as Mobilizing Function

    The individual longs for situations where people are having fun, laughing and joking, and feel emotionally free and spontaneous. However, he is generally unable to produce this atmosphere himself and uses other means to create situations where there is a good chance that others will take the emotional initiative and create a fun and emotionally stimulating atmosphere. Failure at such attempts are met with dismay, which the individual either hides or reacts to with frustration and annoyance.

    Fe as Ignoring Function

    The individual is perfectly able to integrate in a group emotional situations, such as people having fun and trading jokes, and sustain that for a long period of time. He is also usually adept at promoting such an atmosphere himself. However, he sees no point in doing so if his own inner emotional state does not prompt him towards that, especially if he does not feel as having positive private feelings towards the other people involved. He is aware of the need to keep a "polite facade" in certain social situations even in the presence of people he personally dislikes or during periods of negative inner emotions, but he refuses to actively attempt to integrate in, or promote, a positive external emotional atmosphere in such occasions. His disinclination for doing so increases along with his feelings of closeness with the individuals present.

    Fe as Demonstrative Function

    The individual appreciates situations where people are enjoying a positive emotional atmosphere as in having fun and joking together, and is quite adept at creating them himself, but does not see creating or promoting them a top priority, nor does he actively look for people who maintain or need such an atmosphere; too high a focus on that is seen by the individual as overdone.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    lol Aylen no one is even talking to you, and here you go on about "need for attention"

    its pretty obvious you identify yourself with the air in the room which is a Fe dominant perspective, which is why you come and go without any tangible reason but act as if its perfectly normal and obvious as to why

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    can anybody tell me how he values Fi?

    establishing boundaries, stating sentiments, judging character, individualistic/humanistic attitudes...all of these things range from either stuff he's completely deaf to and just doesn't hear or care about, or stuff he views as contemptible or stupid, afaict.
    I also absolutely do not care about anything like estabilishing boundaries or judging character or humanistic attitudes. LIEs are Te types with 1D Fi. They may be receptive to Fi after multiple times it's rubbed on their nose but still, natural attitudes prevail.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    guess what, 1d functions have a low res picture and where they exaggerate the impact, essentially attaching quite a bit of weight to a small bit of information, which is why its suggestive

    1d functions that you minimize, not exaggerate the importance of, are polr

    i swear you people are dumb as fuck

    ignoring is like a mini polr (a high res picture you prefer to ignore)

    polr is a low res picture you prefer to ignore

    suggestive is a low res picture with a disproportionately high impact. LIE cares a lot about Fi and all the attributes of Fi, by definition, because its the other half of their dominant function, if you don't care about boundaries its hard for me to imagine you being Te at all, since Te cannot function without such boundaries. the literal explosion of Fi boundaries is.... Fe

    I've always said "our LIEs" (FDG and Adam) are anything but, but whatever. this farce is obviously never going to end

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I also absolutely do not care about anything like estabilishing boundaries or judging character or humanistic attitudes. LIEs are Te types with 1D Fi. They may be receptive to Fi after multiple times it's rubbed on their nose but still, natural attitudes prevail.
    Well it's true, I can like Ne but sometimes it can annoy me, either way don't expect me to see hidden potential in my life. I'm an SLI, I just do stuff that happens.

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    idk, I'm very receptive to factual information that helps me meet objectives, but I think that's not what Te is considered to be anymore.

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    lol look at these idiots try to reconcile these claims in the pursuit of group solidarity

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    lol Aylen no one is even talking to you, and here you go on about "need for attention"

    its pretty obvious you identify yourself with the air in the room which is a Fe dominant perspective, which is why you come and go without any tangible reason but act as if its perfectly normal and obvious as to why


    You dismissing my perspective is typical. You think you know it all. Good luck with that but in the meantime please feel free to go fuck yourself. Preferably with this since your chakras need alignment.



    I am as free as you are to weigh in on any subject I want. I don't do it as often as you do apparently but when I see you making dumb comments I will say something if I feel like it. Get it?

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    guess what, 1d functions have a low res picture and where they exaggerate the impact, essentially attaching quite a bit of weight to a small bit of information, which is why its suggestive

    1d functions that you minimize, not exaggerate the importance of, are polr

    i swear you people are dumb as fuck

    ignoring is like a mini polr (a high res picture you prefer to ignore)

    polr is a low res picture you prefer to ignore

    suggestive is a low res picture with a disproportionately high impact. LIE cares a lot about Fi and all the attributes of Fi, by definition, because its the other half of their dominant function, if you don't care about boundaries its hard for me to imagine you being Te at all, since Te cannot function without such boundaries. the literal explosion of Fi boundaries is.... Fe

    I've always said "our LIEs" (FDG and Adam) are anything but, but whatever. this farce is obviously never going to end
    I could be ILE, sure, no problem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I could be ILE, sure, no problem.
    New Youtube [x] Get Typed! [x]
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    idk, I'm very receptive to factual information that helps me meet objectives
    Only from people you like
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I am as free as you are to weigh in on any subject I want.
    yeah its just the way you come in that seems so incredibly random I would associate as counter Fi and counter Ni. its very random seeming, kind of like the fussy busyness of an ESE with their inscrutable drives and imperatives that come and go with no discernible rhyme or reason

    I know you would say its your 4d ni chess, but I'm pretty sure its not and you're just a rather confused person

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    good thing troll wasn't talking about womanizing

    (the whole point is ESI has exaggerated notions on the topic, and LIE is receptive to it, but "womanizing" in that context is privately defined within the dyad; by all objective notions LIE is less wandering (although they joke) than most types, precisely for the foregoing reason, they sincerely aspire to more). sure sign of LIE is they talk a lot about sex but have been dating the same woman for 10 years since high school and have never cheated
    "And does this also apply to LIE's personal relationships? This primarily applies to them. Who said that one needs to exhaust (one's) self in the pursuit of a (partner)? One only needs to find an approach to (them) such that (they) will quickly yield, and then apply this method successfully in the future. But in a relationship with the opposite sex, this "experimental path" sometimes turns out to be the longest, especially if the LIE does not listen to (their) own intuition and ethical programs that orient (them) at dualization. A lot of time passes before the LIE begins to realize that by rapid storm, siege, and cavalry assaults (they) won't win over Dreiser and won't earn (their) respect. Patience, dedication, and good deeds are the surest way to the heart of (their) dual.

    The LIE dislikes "sawing the sawdust" and returning to the past, meanwhile taking away time from the present and the future. But so that the past doesn't beguile and draw (them) in again, (they) can with meticulous precision again and again try to recreate the conditions of (their) first "experiment", in attempts to understand what (they) had done "wrong". In this sense, the LIE remains true to (their) very first love. But (their) faithfulness to one love and one partner the LIE may combine with the search for alternative, episodic partners, "haphazard" companions who become (their) partners until "the next turn". The permanent partner is the one with whom the LIE builds long-term plans.

    And with these "casual companions" can the LIE cheat on (their) permanent partner? (They) can. There are many examples of this to be found in the biography of Jack London. With LIEs this happens frequently. The LIE is not very discerning in picking (their) "companions" and at the same time somewhat trusting and gullible (positivist type), inclined to be on the lookout for alternatives, enjoys changes (including change of partners), not very stable, easily drawn into new ventures (including ethical ones), given to succumb to the present temptations.

    Given the reputation of type ESI the reader may wonder how does the LIE end up with such a partner. Wouldn't (they) prefer a partner who gives (them) total freedom and as much distance as (they need)? The LIE by (their) own nature is very freedom-loving and democratic. A partner who functions as a "jail guard" is categorically not prescribed for (them). From such partners the LIEs either run away or fall sick and die in the prime of their life. But the ESI, even if (they) has been driven to desperation from constant absences of the LIE, as much as (they) might wish for it is not able to be such a "jailer" simply because (they feel) that this is unethical, undemocratic, and immoral. In the opinion of ESI, in accordance with (their) objectivist democratic EGO program (-Fi), relations between partners must be built on mutual trust and respect for the rights and interests of one's partner if these don't contradict the interests of (their) family and (their) "team". For this reason, a (partner) of type ESI frequently becomes accused by (their) family and relatives in excessive trust and yielding attitude towards (their) LIE (partner), especially if something goes wrong: "You didn't watch (them), didn't check where (they) goes after (they) leaves. You're at fault yourself for allowing (them) to let loose."

    To suppose that the LIE can sacrifice the interests of (their) family and (their) "team" for the sake of (their) own entertainment and whims is unthinkable for the ESI, at least in younger years, due to ESI's sincerity, credulity, naively, and the euphoric state of dualization. Therefore, this insight comes to Dreiser with a lot of difficulty. The cruel reality is disappointing. The ESI recalls the warnings of (their) relatives, admits to (them)self that they were right, but still (they) can't change anything in (their) relation to Jack. (They) becomes a hostage of these relations, continues pulling (their) load but feels deeply unhappy. Trying to shame the LIE and call to (their) conscience, the ESI stumbles upon LIE's blind, stubborn resistance. If the LIE has found (them)self in advantageous and comfortable for (them) conditions, why would (they) give up (their) position? (They) will continue to parasitize on (their) partner." Stratiyevskaya


    And I don't have many LIE friends, but I know one or two who HAVE cheated in their pasts. I know that other LIE and myself see S and F as achilles' heels for ourselves. I really bothered a merry type ex-boyfriend when I told him I thought it was important for him to have another partner if I got dementia in 5 decades and wasn't affectionate toward him and didn't know who he was. That horrified him.

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