This is sort of humanist-related motivation then and so totally a delta NF behaviour. It has nothing to do with Se valuing.Originally Posted by Bertrand
This could easily just be Se role. Posting photos of high energy and glamour doesn't require much Se, it isn't the same as doing it yourself in IRL.
I don't think delta cares so much about that ax to grind they're more about getting away from that scene to begin with. in other words, they don't want to integrate people into a project they consider inherently less valuable, which is what all the glitz is to delta. I think the Si posters like subteigh show exactly the kind of stuff they like to "promote" which is not bringing those types in but promoting them as they are as outsiders, in other words, to show society should appreciate them by coming to them by changing itself, not by just assimilating their faces into the multicultural Se party, I think that is more of a late gamma thing (sort of a mcdonaldization of the world, see these koreans imitate their white masters oops I mean western culture, so well! etc) there's something profoundly not multicultural about that kind of multi culturalism because it assimilates them, showing them as inherently "no different" rather than takes them as they are and asks someone to actually reckon with that underlying premise. its the sort of "born this way" defense of gay people, its like what if they weren't born that way, what if it was a choice, would they be any less valid? its a sideways to get their foot in the door, maybe its a necessary first step but the seeds of its own eventual demise are latent within it as a deep theory of acceptance. its the sort of "shallow" beta attempt to deal with social problems, where delta is more about deep penetration into the issues, which is how I understand precisely that gay rights slogan and issues (light v heavy humanitarians)
in other words delta is more like home network than E! so while they want to appreciate minorities and see them get their nice little nests, I don't think they make it their mission to popularize multiculturalism from a Se assimilation angle
Last edited by Bertrand; 03-30-2018 at 02:28 AM.
Late gamma is also early delta btw. And really, what world do you live in, where "minorities" are really "outsiders" to the extent you're describing? Must be some midwestern US shithole lol, no wonder you're so bitter on here all the time.
I mean to say that it is common for people to share basic information. I didn't assume people would know anything but i thought it's a start (somewhere you have to start and that was my choice).
I don't know if i should be offended or smth regarding you thinking it a practical joke. In all my time here i've not been one for practical jokes. Also, interesting. Maybe another one for inter-type misunderstandings.
by late gamma I mean still entirely gamma, but just its worked out its Se/Ni conflicts with beta to a post modern conclusion, essentially where the united states stands today. I've lived in southern California most my life
in other words a mature philosophy that values the same stuff, just has had time to develop it to its conclusion
@Bertrand that's surprising. for someone who's been living in SoCal your views are pretty archaic and laggy. you must not go out very much, or primarily fraternize within your str8whitemale bubble.
that's what I'm talking about, I don't see inclusion on that level as some kind of victory, if you think I'm backwards for that reason its because we're on opposite ends of the socion, I could say i'm coming up behind you lapping you, but its more like we're equidistant apart such is the nature of opposed quadra. I think Se valuing sees a seat at the table of excess as desirable but to me, and perhaps its just white male privelege, which I conceed it may be, but I think what humanity needs is something a lot deeper. I think many social protestors will realize this when they meet their near term goals, which is people have been working on deeper spiritual issues all along, and that its actually contemporary society that perhaps needs to take a step back than "advance" less "advantaged" people, which is essentially just a form of colonialism
Forget the socion, I'm saying you're objectively behind in terms of the actual state of the world at large now. Your lapping concept is voided there.
that's a laudible opinion, I'm sure many people agree with you
@Bertrand I'm pretty sure most people don't even read or get your posts anyway, so you're safe.
And yeah I still think you're ILI and always have.
yes my main concern is hoping I'm safe such that not being understood is a comfort--wait no that is only a concern in a totalitarian regime... I live in a psychological world that can actually tolerate not declaratively tolerate real not merely superficial differences, that has been my point all along
its ok though I know this is essentially impossible for many people to understand, so in that sense you're not wrong that that is the case, but its not exactly a comfort, although perhaps it should be if people really were going to get violent over my perceived stance
Why would you have said this to me then?
"that's a laudible opinion, I'm sure many people agree with you"
It doesn't make sense. It's self-contradictory lol.
Alright, nice save.
my point is simply that its not that I don't think people of all shapes sizes colors and sexual orientations can be just as "cool" as hollywood white people, its that if they really want the good life they wouldn't bother trying. the deeper appreciation for their stance is white people adopting minority stances (i.e. coming to appreciate and really understand non western forms of spirituality) not vice versa i.e. just assimilating them into the blob of materialism. i feel like a lot of chae's grandstanding actually engenders deep feelings of inferiority in minority groups because of how it assumes success looks like giving up who you really are, whereas the opposing point of view is that to assume they are anything and not freely able to assimilate is too essentialist and pejorative. I guess its about what you think matters at bottom, is it about integrating into a structure or is about preserving individuality and local traditions
This entire thread is enabling of passive-aggression and drama on the forum and stupid tbh, in my opinion.
I guess, I am not someone who gives a shit about what someone believes I am, friend or enemy, and if I want someone's opinion I'll ask, or if I think something about them I'd rather just tell them directly. If someone who hardly knows me makes a third-person post about me, it's definitely going to be half-assed. Sometimes drama is fun and funny though so whatever I guess.
I don't feel like her posts create these feelings at all, as a WOC myself technically.
This post of yours contradicts yourself again btw, by ascribing importance to attitudes from the "psychological world" like this.
you don't think it does but then you act out the premise that that is what acceptance looks like by doing everything in your power to achieve success within that world. from the psychological point of view such a thing is imposed upon oneself influenced by unconscious factors. things that spur you on toward that goal by encouraging it as an achievable vision entail giving something else up on the back end which is your tradition, some would say there must be a deep sense of shame there to give up ancestor worship and take on the "new religion", this is what colonialism does. however you are right, that is for every individual to work out for themselves, so inasmuch as I have my opinion you have yours and that is perfectly okay with me. in some sense it is true that if old traditions were truly worth holding onto they could not die, the question is simply at what point do we abandon them and then wake up one day to a wasteland and its too late. this is a mythological interpretation applicable to humanity as a whole and also to single individuals
not everyone is meant to understand everything, its what makes us who we are. a metaphor is that polr manifests as a unique form of creative output as a kind of total human effort to avoid it and in doing so sketches a silhouette of something only a human could create
@Bertrand You're basically saying that you think minorities can be brainwashed by white people's values easily and give up their traditions and own values for it. I don't think that's the case, a lot more free will and free trading of viewpoints is at play than the dynamic you're describing. It's sort of patronizing actually to think the way you are, ironically.
And sure everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but my opinion is of an insider POV I guess whereas yours is one of an outsider looking in. You claimed that minorities feel deep shame or something based on posts like these and I'm telling you I don't. If you keep persistently denying that then you become bigoted and presumptuous about the limitations of your own insight.
I also think that to say something insulting like this towards Chae in small text without tagging her is really rude and cowardly.
not really I'm an insider telling you western society is bankrupt in many ways, we're both insiders and outsiders.. we are essentially on opposite sides of gamma articulating perspectives on it, yours is psychologically aspirational toward the culture its produced where mine is cynical. ironically beta tends to be critical but only inasmuch as it allows them to climb the power ladder, which is what a lot of feminism amounts to, its not so much abolition of the heirarchy but inversion of it. in any case, integration in gamma society is both a step in the right direction and fundamentally limited. the main thing is to live one's life with meaning, the only problem is when it becomes too aggressive and ends up causing a disproportionate amount of harm. but harm can be caused in a lot of ways so no one not even advocates of non aggression can really escape that, since you can cause harm by also being too passive. in the end there are no easy answers to the moral problems of humanity
@Bertrand You're a straight white guy telling me what you think I think/feel, and I'm telling you it's bullshit. End of story. Take it or leave it.
thats precisely my point, on one hand you worship white straight males, on the other you try to subordinate them with moral claims
that is beta max
I'm not worshipping them... you're delusional and obviously don't understand what I'm talking about, so I give up. This is my last post to you on this issue. I'm saying that you, as someone who is a non-minority, shouldn't be presumptuous about the experience of minorities.
You're also trying to shit all over Chae with your moral claims, which you apparently don't like having done to you, which is amazing projection.
I don't want to Chae to stop, I'm simply pointing out what I see and how it fits within the framework of socionics. the bottom line is that sort of flagbearing is very important and useful at a certain stage and then less useful at a different stage, and there are people who inhabit both stages so they have different views on the flagbearing and flagbearer and that is a good thing. it is a truism that one cannot be everything to everyone, so it should come as no surprise that opinions differ, but that is precisely why a degree of force should be moderated in deference to the idea that the truth is distributed across a variety of perspectives, white men included. the rejoinder is simply kill all men because their perspective is not valid, that the foregoing is entirely a method they devised to subordinate others, and that inasmuch as they embody an invalid and false idea the body should be eliminated. this is generally the philosophy of beta, but it is rooted in projection that all white men are beta white men such that different opinions are inevitably physical threats to be countered in kind, lest the develop into full blown slavery for everyone else. the problem is living in a psychological universe of only masters and slaves with only power to determine who is who. that sort of perspective when it acts itself out necessarily gives rise to countervailing forces so they bring the conflicts upon themselves everywhere they go. this is akin to their shadow haunting them, they call it fate, and see conflict in everyone. I will concede there have been a lot of beta white men who sincerely advocated for destruction of anyone not exactly like them, so its no surprise that white men everywhere today reap what they sowed, which is to say they managed to infect the world with the idea that collective guilt passes racially and now it has been turned against them. there is a cosmic irony to that that I fully accept and find sort of funny, but at the same time, if one believes it was always bad it is still bad today so it should not be adopted in its inverse form no matter how poetic it seems. however I know that won't happen and concede maybe it shouldn't even happen, maybe we should kill all white men, although such a thing is likely to die a natural death through race mixing, although perhaps not, feminism and multiculturalism invites a regressive form of compensation in the form of white purity movements and other nonsense, because the ideational taint continues as time goes on but instead of it going beta white males -> feminists it goes feminists -> beta white males, so the whole idea of race is problematic on the conceptual level and feminists only perpetuate the cycle when they suggest white males have nothing to add. the future of those white males is to internalize that and then cloister themselves because they believe integration is impossible on the grounds they were rejected first. you see this in people like cuvinin. the bottom line is yall need Jesus, but in a Jungian sense
Last edited by Bertrand; 03-30-2018 at 04:53 AM.
Ummm... yes right threads. Maybe I just find it hard to see behind it. It is completely normal to keep things on surface, though. It might mess up perceptions. Maybe your alignment towards time messes up with my mind.You mentioned me three times
Yeah, that's my secret behind all those speculations. The selfies are fakes. But don't tell anyone. The hut is warm, please visit
Idk why you know nothing, pay attention in the right threads
Maybe it is about your nature to move ahead optimistically and not wanting critique (?) which actually might indicate more IEE than SEE (and EIE).
If person does not want harsh critique about future endeavours a person can not be SEE. How about you? (Makes me think that Trump truly is SEE)
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
The first part I didn't getUmmm... yes right threads. Maybe I just find it hard to see behind it. It is completely normal to keep things on surface, though. It might mess up perceptions. Maybe your alignment towards time messes up with my mind.
Maybe it is about your nature to move ahead optimistically and not wanting critique (?) which actually might indicate more IEE than SEE (and EIE).
If person does not want harsh critique about future endeavours a person can not be SEE. How about you? (Makes me think that Trump truly is SEE)
I don't move ahead, I just stagnate going in circles
Don't know about critique either. As long it's not someone telling me what to do it's fine. About future endeavors, I have no idea except knowing what I like to do. If I get input fine but I set the preference.
HmI still think you read too much into this aspect instead of others, thanks anyways for elaborating.
Agree. He'd better payed more attention on that
"what I demand/need is:
- To really get organized. My biggest concern I'm the opposite of order."
We see how "polr Ti" talks about the most important trait in the spouse... - organizing (!).
It's like LSE have said as the most wishing thing in the wife not unconditional Fi love, but... forecasting the future or her abbility to daydream!
Also the words are in the form not just to live in an organized world, but "get organized" - to be made such, by a force applied to her (Se).
Chae explained later how she approaches it. Really not Se valuing, what she said there.
Also you are basically saying that anyone who fantasizes about celebrities is Se valuing. Do you really see people in this unrealistic black and white way?
I'm asking about cognitive priorities, not emotional-motivational.Chae already did this: "My only true motivation is feeling outward achievement and approval, hence my personality molds to that."
Let's not go in circles any more please...
If you keep ignoring important notes then yeah it'll just be going in circles. Congrats, keep ignoring what doesn't match your hasty typing of her as drama+celebrities = EIE.
If one day you can point to something that shows Ni ego for her, I'm all ears - but this will never happen lol.
And you'd better pay attention to where Chae said in the same post that she wants an easygoing nonjudgmental person... Any T type can provide some organization, but the Irrational types see the Rational ones as judgmental.
LII friend posted photo of himself enjoying bathing in a pool on a luxury cruise ship. Se PoLR...
He's very stereotypical LII in many ways lol, very oriented towards consistent logic and towards finding novel solutions. He works in a place now where his job is always about finding novel solutions using maths. He earns a lot of money with this. So I guess he can go on more cruises if he wants to lol with his LSE wife.
But his approach to Se overall... If you look closer - he's actually incredibly neurotic about it yet wants to be good at it in some ways. He started being like this after his IEI ex dumped him and criticized his PoLR a lot. It's like he got perfectionistic about it then in a very neurotic way. He's overall still the same likeable geek though who's got very idealistic notions (which is btw how he wasted a lot of money on a medical-IT startup... I would have done it differently, not as idealistic as he).
@thehotelambush people are not as black and white, see
Fantasizing about celebrities is most likely not NT ego, notor
in ego block, correct, but
+
ego can do fantasizing about hypothetical relations to other people.
It's a sign of strongvaluing. But
PoLR, I don't get it.
Yes, that's
Idealism and humanism is based onfor LII, I guess.
It's lesser important for her, as goes much below.
I relate this to nontypes factors. I suppose she had bad relations and is overcautious, too generalizes. All types judge in protecting own values and impose own opinions from ego functions. The love relations have mutual care, it's impossible to care about other one without significant following to own understanding. Dual does this in the most compatible way for you. But he is not "easygoing" as has the stable personality, there are borders of acceptance. The other good thing - duals having strong soul attraction to each other, exchange by own perceptions, teach each other to improve the communication, are better in this exchange than other IR.
LSI are stubborn and LSE are, but we have compassion and motivation to understand the ones we love and to do what they want, to change our perception and behavior to allow our loved to feel good. To be conscious means to be judgmental. Those judgments may be adopted to the needs of ones which we are loving. I think she just needs the right man to lesser affraid of his judgments and thinking as higher the possibilities to adopt to each other.
Also T types are not easy for F types to deal on initial stages of communication. It's F types are experts to deal with people, while T types need more time to adopt to other one. So even good IR while giving personal sympathy, may to allow conflicts. It's important to do not affraid them, as they are much fixable (in case IR are good indeed) and there is the wish to improve such relations from both sides due to sympathy which stays despite people may to have small quarrels.
She likes the fame. The pop-clowns. It's about attraction to status (Ti) and emotional excitement (Fe). Also her dreams about own "easy life" among projectors and fame is about Ni dreams, not about Ne.
Status has something to do with
Apologizes ahead of time myst as I know how you hated @Kill4Me typing you ILE, but this here makes me wonder if perhaps he really was onto to something. I mean, looking at it from at purely objective standpoint, criticizing someone for seeing things too black and white does seem rather Ne-lead, does it not? You would think Ne-polrs would be the ones holding black and white views, rather then criticizing others for it.
Forgive me for stirring this topic back up, but it does seem like something worthy of thought.
I guess Ti-valuing in Betas is loosely associated with a hierarchy and the enjoyment one gets when climbing that ladder. Think of rags to riches. You're playing with the big boys now.Status has something to do with
“I want the following word: splendor, splendor is fruit in all its succulence, fruit without sadness. I want vast distances. My savage intuition of myself.”
― Clarice Lispector
I am not debating type because k4m uses his own um, "efficient", system but isn't Te generally seen as more "black and white" than Ti?
Ne as Vulnerable Function
The individual is highly skeptical about ideas and opportunities that appear not to lead anywhere specific, and seeks assurance that new innovations will definitely bring material benefits. He prefers the kind of ideas and innovations that offer solutions to existing problems rather than the kind that have uncertain consequences and are likely to bring upheaval and unnecessary change. The individual may tend to forcefully restrict other people's activities in areas he thinks they have no natural talent in. At the same time, he or she is prone to make errors when judging whether or not a person is capable of doing something. The individual generally does not try hard to understand multiple viewpoints, but concentrates on developing only his own. He is not very good at intriguing others with his ideas, even when they have significant merit. The individual dislikes it when people evaluate others' potential to engage in activities or develop skills in which they haven't had experience yet; above all he is uncomfortable with such discussions by other people regarding himself. He is inclined to be either over-skeptical of his own potential or going to the other extreme and overestimate his possibilities in specific areas on occasion.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
Well @thehotelambush thinks this stuff must be Se valuing lolIt's a sign of strong
His is the Ne creative brand of idealism like here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Dmitry-GolihovIdealism and humanism is based on
Okay, explain away everything in whatever way you feel like doing it lol... Why do you not explain away the things that you think are Ti seeking in her, instead? You don't really have a justification for this.
Off topic: I had these notions but then I had to find out in practice that relationships need way more than that for them to work.LSI are stubborn and LSE are, but we have compassion and motivation to understand the ones we love and to do what they want, to change our perception and behavior to allow our loved to feel good. To be conscious means to be judgmental. Those judgments may be adopted to the needs of ones which we are loving. I think she just needs the right man to lesser affraid of his judgments and thinking as higher the possibilities to adopt to each other.
Also T types are not easy for F types to deal on initial stages of communication. It's F types are experts to deal with people, while T types need more time to adopt to other one. So even good IR while giving personal sympathy, may to allow conflicts. It's important to do not affraid them, as they are much fixable (in case IR are good indeed) and there is the wish to improve such relations from both sides due to sympathy which stays despite people may to have small quarrels.
No problem, I don't really care whatever I get typed as, I just get pissed if someone tries to read motives into my stuff based on a stupid typing.
Every information element has a black and white oversimplified version and a refined version.
In this case though it's not even about Socionics, just common sense, where I said it's black and white. Like I don't know how @thehotelambush exactly defines Se valuing but whatever he operationalizes it as, say X thing and Y thing concretely, it's just common sense that X and Y and fantasizing about celebrities do not always go together.
As for my type. If you want to consider ILE for me, then first compare me to actual ILEs, like mu4 or Troll Nr 007 lol... have fun
@Myst if you read my site you would know 1) I see sociotype as literally a motivational structure for the psyche (which is cognitive too obviously) and 2) how I define Se. It's all there.
Te is object oriented, but Pe is about the concretion and weight of those objects. 4d Te Se is maximally object oriented and concrete, with 4d Te Ne being object oriented but those "objects" are abstract things like market forces, supply, demand, and other forms of ideas that are no less "objective" in their role in devising a course of action as a matter of logic, this is where playing with time comes in, and schemes like you see play out on wall street to manipulate markets. concretion is the directness of the ties between things, often confused as causal deterministic reasoning, mainly because causal determinism is intentionally and continually attempted to be rendered at maximal concretion. concretion is creating a scheme that "cannot fail" with every link in the chain maximally articulatable observable and obvious, whereas LIE could create a "cannot fail" scheme by account for unknowns in wide brackets and "make something happen" but it looks like magic because of those abstract gaps, which he essentially gambled on, but when you gamble and win you're a magician. can think of concretion in terms of SLE as zero residual risk, whereas with LIE its "less risky than not" in other words, 51% vs 99.9% in "placing bets"--you place enough 51% bets and you win, that is what vortical cognition is--the house wins on a long enough time line always.. the scales are slightly tipped and that's all you need, it will eventually and inevitably slide one way, vortical cognition is what sees this. this is where the abstract time factor transforms gambles into a sure thing that maximally concrete people don't see. they think these abstract types are idiots making bad bets, prior to betting; after winning, they worship them as benefactors. its ironic though because they still see them as "gutless" on the sensory level, when its just a different placing of the "cowardice"
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
