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Thread: Synthesizing descriptions of duality.

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    Default Synthesizing descriptions of duality.

    I found this post in this blog about Duality relations. The writer makes some remarks about duality while reading different descriptions (based on his experience). I don't know if you already read it, but I thought it's better to post it here (I hope the writer doesn't mind!). I liked it because he highlights the tense stage of duality which is not often talked about. I was so glad to find it because it was very similar to my experience and it solidified things to me. You can read it here. And not every duality relation is gonna be similar to this, I guess there is the other scenario where things go very well from the start if people are mature enough.




    I'll be looking at several descriptions of the duality relation and make pertinent remarks.

    Most of the descriptions only provide a couple perspective on the duality relation. By looking at all the descriptions, a much stronger picture of the duality relation arises.

    1. http://www.socionics.com/rel/dlt.htm

    Remarks:


    • The description simply remarks that "The first stage can be really tense." This is probably the greatest understatement of the century. They can be REALLY tense, lasting for as long as a whole year (which is the case in my life).
    • Each dual pair need different conditions in order for a relationship to form. For example, an ESTj and an INFj, both very religious types, should be devout followers of the same religion and be working together in the same religious group (church, fellowship, etc.)
    • The description states that conflicts are solved without pain once a relationship has formed. This is not true...
    • Link #2 provides some interesting notes on dual relationships.

    2. http://www.socionika.com/experiencin...relations.html


    Remarks:

    • I am not so sure whether 30% - 45% of all marriages are dual relationships, since the divorce rate is around 50% in the US....and besides, the statistic is answering the question "what is the percentage of all marriages right now that are dual relations?". This is obviously going to be skewed towards dual relationships...Given a snapshot in time, most marriages will have been formed for many years. After so much time, dual relations has the strongest chance of standing strong, followed by activation and mirror relations.

      Instead, a much more interesting statistic will be comparing length of marriage with the type of relation.
    • An interesting point: "Duals are also rather jealous." This is an understatement, at least from my experience...duals are extremely jealous.
    • I like this point: "It takes some time to become accustomed to each other."
      • Question: how much time?

    • The article mentions 8 stages of a dual relation, but it's obvious that they skipped the "really tense" stage. Instead, the "8 stages" should be treated as "8 characteristics"

    **3. http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...machine-trans)


    Remarks: This compiles a dozen different descriptions. This is like the magnus opum of dual descriptions. Lots of really good stuff. I'll only be making remarks on the negative aspects of Duality that was found.

    • "
      In dual relationship corrected deficiencies that are felt acutely partner and immediately goes back reaction. This natural reaction "gets to the point," can certainly be painful, but stimulates the analysis of behavior to deep reflection and efficient corrective action. But such a process, however, takes time and tremendous effort, domestic work, soul-searching, analysis of our own actions and behavior of others is a heartache. Sometimes people may refuse from each other."

      Great note. When one dual needs to correct his behavior, then 1) there is extraordinary pain, 2) stimulates self-analysis, corrective behavior, 3) requires much time, much effort, and much heartache.

      There are time when the partners will refuse/reject each other. Folks, this is painful reality! Great stuff.

    • Perhaps this line can provide some hope: "
      Over time, people begin to realize how much they mean to each other."

      "time" can mean as long as half to a whole year. This is how it was in my case.

      Not so idealistic anymore, is it?
    • After delving a little more into some descriptions, I am beginning to realize that there are indeed some very idealistic overtones. At least it's tempered by some hardcore notes how it can be really difficult.
      • Relationships develop, the partners are improving, making the interest, harmony and surprise with new and new pleasant surprise, hitting the endless creative manifestations: "We're so good together, can there be even better?" Time passes, and it turns out that the relationship became even more enjoyable, more interesting, and is perceived by all as a miracle, like grace as a gift of fate.


    • "misunderstandings still occur, however, themselves quickly and quietly disappear. Most often it happens at first, until one yet knows the other. Quarreling, which arise from differences in styles of thinking and rapid reconciliation tone partners bring excitement in relationships, educate and develop. Relationships stimulate work on them. Occurs amazingly fast growth of the individual. Ability to work on yourself, respect and attention to the partner and their needs, respect for it increasing culture of communication, and then it passes easily, without stress and brings true satisfaction."

      This is an extremely important point. Dual relations require work! Lots of work! And lots of pain, too...

      It is interesting to note that in dual relations, partners really motivated to do all that work and self-improvement, despite the pain that can be felt from time to time.

      Andddddd....this bullet point reminds me of a very relevant Steve Jobs quote:

      "People say you have to have a lot of passion for what you’re doing and it’s totally true. And the reason is because it’s so hard that if you don’t, any rational person would give up. It’s really hard. And you have to do it over a sustained period of time. So if you don’t love it, if you’re not having fun doing it, you don’t really love it, you’re going to give up. And that’s what happens to most people, actually. If you really look at the ones that ended up, you know, being “successful” in the eyes of society and the ones that didn’t, oftentimes, it’s the ones [who] were successful loved what they did so they could persevere, you know, when it got really tough. And the ones that didn’t love it quit because they’re sane, right? Who would want to put up with this stuff if you don’t love it?
      So it’s a lot of hard work and it’s a lot of worrying constantly and if you don’t love it, you’re going to fail. So you’ve got to love it and you’ve got to have passion and I think that’s the high-order bit."
    • Another cautionary note: "However, in fairness it should be noted that in relations between the dual there are many difficulties precisely because of the fact that a strong function of their opposite. However, it allows them to successfully interact with the world, but often turns misunderstanding between the partners themselves."



    Andddddddd....there are many other good points in that article! Read it, read it all!




    4. http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Duality


    Remarks:

    • Once again, plenty of idealistic language here. Most of the article is covered with idealism, anyways. Want to get pumped up about how Duality is all awesome? Read it.
    • Completely downplays how tension and conflict can arise.

    5. http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ons-(Filatova)


    Remarks

    • Interesting comparison of what each dual needs each other for.

    6. http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Meged-Ovcharov



    Remarks

    • Describes duality for each pair, and what each pair needs to do in order to dualize.



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    interesting link

    I don't think socionics argues that duality exists without conflicts. socionics generally states that duals do experience conflicts, they just don't usually recognize them as conflicts, whereas if members of their opposing quadra caught them interacting, they may assume that something is amiss based on their own subjective quadra values, because all their words/actions are being filtered through the unique conditions of their respective duality dynamic. that isn't to say that duals won't experience "real" conflicts that even they will recognize as conflicts, it's just that even when those conflicts occur, it's not hitting either of their weak spots, so reconciliation usually happens naturally (no harm no foul) or they resolve the conflict by addressing it in the only way they know how, which just so happens to be their dual's preferred approach to reconciliation, which could range from outright avoidance to high-charged arguments. I imagine that's where the stereotype that duals never conflict stems from, since they do conflict, but it won't be as psychologically taxing as conflicts with other intertype relations. in fact I might even argue that you won't fully recognize your dual until you experience "real" conflict, because then you get a peek into who they are underneath their public persona, which is essentially just an inside-out version of yourself, there's a lot of solidarity to be evoked from that kind of revelation. the commentary on the "tense" nature of duality doesn't sit well with me, I'm sure it'll exist in the beginning stages of the relationship (which is the case for any new relationship where you're not yet familiar enough with each other to act naturally) but I wouldn't categorize it as hyper intense all the time. sorry, I'm not trying to shoot down the site, those are interesting observations, some details just seemed "off".

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    I agree with your post Wasp but I disagree with your reading of the OP, I think the OP and you agree on all essential points

    the take home is simply conflict happens in duality and hurts but has a different character than conflict of other kinds, how you characterize that difference as having greater or lesser tension than other kinds is kind of subjective, but suffice to say conflict exists between duals and it hurts in its own special way. it is the kind of hurt that occurs when its not coming from the unknown the way it usually does so you can't use the same old tired heuristics to ignore it, rather its the kind of pain that arises from a lower degree of absolute conflict but one that touches you completely so you feel it acutely across many levels. really they need different words for fighting with your dual vs others. its a unique psychological experience whereas fighting with non duals is all shades of its own other thing, which is the lion's share of conflict in life, but is rooted in a lot of projection and differing values. fighting with duals in my experience comes from fighting with your own issues head on, its a confrontation with yourself as the ruiner and that sucks

    every dyad is probably going to color their own experience of a) conflict with the world and b) conflict with duals in slightly different terms, but I think its important to try and contextualize such characterizations as commenting on substantially the same phenomenon but experienced through different lenses. what people mean by "tension" and which is higher v lower in comparison (in re a v b) is going to go to that, the point is there is a relationship there and tension is a great word for characterizing relationships, the absolute positions we prefer to configure it in notwithstanding. you could say relations with duals are the high point of tension which is what the OP may be alluding to, simply because the people are so bound up, tension is not necessarily discomfort or -Fe etc rather it is presence of force in a relationship. I can easily see how "emotional discomfort" is how people read tension but I think that is too literal for what is being conveyed here. rather its more like an invisible bond that intensifies feelings of conflict even in lesser disputes, which makes it sound like duality just makes things worse, but its more the phenomenon about why fighting with your mom is worse than fighting with a stranger. its not because your relationship to mom is "worse" (assuming normal relations etc)
    Last edited by Bertrand; 02-04-2018 at 05:08 AM.

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    oh

    but the blogger kept emphasizing that things would be "really" tense, which made it sound like there was little to no synergy in the beginning stages

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    I think what Bertrand said "that fighting with your Dual is like fighting with your own issues" is what this post is all about. I had a relation with my Quasi-Identical and it didn't work because of my own issues, but when I got in a relation with my Dual, the same issues caused the same problems, but it was different this time. With my Quasi-Identical I didn't think there was something wrong with me and I just let the relation crumble. But with Dual, I realized many of my faults and it was quite terrible period but I wanted to improve. The writer mentions in another post that Duals usually end up having deep feelings for each other because they both naturally give each other what they need so I guess it's very hard to leave.

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    when I got in a relation with my Dual, the same issues caused the same problems
    yes and this its own special blend of pain, but its also balanced by a very high degree of otherwise comfort, and its also precisely the conditions where you're most likely to really finally for once deal with the real issue because you don't really have any easy excuses like, "this is also so-and-so's fault cause they're a bad person"-- you really know your dual is more than that so you don't have that excuse. and really moving forward, while better, is just as if not more painful than staying the same, at least short term. something has to die for you to learn, and its your old self in some ways, and that death is painful, your dual is a harbinger of that pain in many ways. but it is a good thing in the final analysis, and its this that I think leads to deep feelings of love. its not "no pain" its triumph over pain that builds that strongest relationships

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy View Post
    I think what Bertrand said "that fighting with your Dual is like fighting with your own issues" is what this post is all about. I had a relation with my Quasi-Identical and it didn't work because of my own issues, but when I got in a relation with my Dual, the same issues caused the same problems, but it was different this time. With my Quasi-Identical I didn't think there was something wrong with me and I just let the relation crumble. But with Dual, I realized many of my faults and it was quite terrible period but I wanted to improve. The writer mentions in another post that Duals usually end up having deep feelings for each other because they both naturally give each other what they need so I guess it's very hard to leave.
    I’m quoting this for posterity because it is just an amazing, great post.

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    Finally! A thread that emphasizes the conflict in duality! Been waiting for this one for a long time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Finally! A thread that emphasizes the conflict in duality! Been waiting for this one for a long time.
    Lol, same. I kept searching and reading anything about this tense stage. Duals are very very different from each other, I didn't understand how they would get along despite all those differences, turns out it's not that easy, it's really a challenge and majority of people are not ready for it. It requires so much work that's why I think breaking up can be pretty common in Dual pairs. But if people want and are ready to improve, it will be the best for them.
    There's something positive I noticed from my experience, after every conflict, I felt somewhat refreshed even if the problem wasn't solved (that was very puzzling) and even if we seperated, I had a sense that even if I encounter them again, I would talk to them as usual because I saw and knew their true self. That's something I didn't feel in other relations.

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    in other words, they're still your dual and always will be

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy View Post
    Lol, same. I kept searching and reading anything about this tense stage. Duals are very very different from each other, I didn't understand how they would get along despite all those differences, turns out it's not that easy, it's really a challenge and majority of people are not ready for it. It requires so much work that's why I think breaking up can be pretty common in Dual pairs. But if people want and are ready to improve, it will be the best for them.
    There's something positive I noticed from my experience, after every conflict, I felt somewhat refreshed even if the problem wasn't solved (that was very puzzling) and even if we seperated, I had a sense that even if I encounter them again, I would talk to them as usual because I saw and knew their true self. That's something I didn't feel in other relations.
    I've never had any close, long-term relationships of any kind, so I don't have a lot of experiences to go off of. The relationship descriptions are therefore not something I tend to rely on. I have only known a few people even moderately closely, and those only for a couple years each, often spaced out in time and in rather disparate contexts. No relationship really sticks out to me as having been amazingly good, even when I take into account potentially positive conflicts.

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    Default I am the author of the blogpost, updated message

    Hi,

    Thanks for the referrer link. After a long hiatus, I've got some good socionics insights that I wanted to write down.

    However, I must reply to this thread. My blog post is completely wrong. I was NOT talking about a duality relationship. I was talking about a Illusory relationship. These are dangerous relationships, because they look like Duality, but they are not. The name of the relationship is very good, but the description (as found on socionics.com) is very misleading. Go with my description instead -- they look like Duality but they are not.

    One post on here said something to the tune of "socionics does not really argue there are conflicts in duality." That is dead-on correct. If there is a conflict, beware! It's probably not duality.

    I plan to publish a longer blogpost fully expounding on the Illusory relationship.

    Basically, TL;DR, these takeaways
    1) my blogpost is about illusory, not duality.
    2) illusory relationships are dangerous b/c they fool you into thinking they're duality, but they're not
    3) psychoanalysis is easy to get wrong. Be very, very careful! Better to just ask the person to take the test and from there tweak a letter or too, since people usually don't even understand themselves that well!

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    @j0ker
    Woah I didn't expect this! I'm not sure that there is no conflict in Duality, I heard many say they had it very difficult with duals (the first stage) but then it becomes easy. So all mistyped? I'm not sure about that...

    Edit: After thinking about it, maybe the conflict in Dual relations is caused by issues of one of the partners and it's not really socionics related. Because I guess if you have problems, it will prevent you from being completly your healthy self and it just becomes a mess.
    Last edited by Kernel; 02-09-2018 at 07:59 AM.

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    More information about conflict in Duality Relationships (from Gulenko video):

    The long-term experience of monitoring dual relationships show that duality is not a panacea (the opposite of what Aushra thought). Although without any doubt, duality has a very great psychological condition, the question is how to work with it correctly.
    Would you tell us about the modern ideas about duality and how it is different from Aushra's teaching and how our school understand that?
    First of all, duality, how it is described by Aushra as a recipe for happiness is ofcourse an exaggeration. The modern person is very hasty and wants to get the quick result and duality is a slow process. It's very difficult to understand your dual using only your mind and logic, however you can feel your dual.
    It's very necessary to go all the way from disagreements to reconciliations in order to begin appreciating your dual with this whole dignity 100%
    Duality is a deep relationship and if anybody is inclined to some sort of temporary flirtation then ofcourse the expectations will not be justified. You will suffer from the fact that you will get stuck in it and then you won't know how to get out of it.
    Ofcourse, dual could also be your enemy and it's a very unpleasant situation. It can severly play on your nerves and even damage you. There are conflicts with your dual, but you see those conflicts less and less during the process of grinding (is that the right word?). However, if there is a deep conflict with your dual, then it's going to be very painful and it will lead to a breakup.
    Maybe you can ask the question: why does it happen?
    There are two basic reasons. First of all, you don't have the right experience with communicating with your dual and you don't know how to react correctly to certain surprises from that part. Second of all, duality is strongly influenced by the individual variant of the subtype. If two duals have dominant subtype, then it will be very difficult to get along for them. Another example is that the normalizing dual would upset the creative dual by trying to forcefully put them in a framework which ofcourse will undermine the relationship. And, the biggest idea of duality is that you don't need to change each other.
    However, if duality happens, then you become dependant on your dual as your dual start depending on you. Example, an LII who really suffered after the death of his ESE wife, so he fell into a deep depression and psychological crisis and after her death he drastically changed his interests, from science he became interested in politics so his interests sharply changed. And this sharp change, ruined relationships not only with colleagues but also with his children.

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    SLI - he's so nice in snap chat. Won't give me much actual time. Just starting to get to know (pft yeah right. He doesn't give away anything. And I beyond nervous to ask) eachother. I confronted him very early and he said it wouldn't work. I agreed. We stopped talking for 2 weeks. He started back up like nothing happened. And I was just...good with it. Like we didn't even have to talk about what caused it all. Then I tried to leave 3 ish more times. He told me the last time would be the last time. Then he started communication up again.
    I am like terrified of him and at the same time - know there is to much else going on under the 8inches of checker plate steel he has protecting his whole interior.

    The part that scares me - I had been in a ltr for 10 years with, who I now just realized is my "conflictor". Like he would say the things that should reach my soul - but they never really did. He would roll his eyes at my zest and love for life. I would irritate him if I wore his coat etc. The looks were what hurt me the most. Not so much the words. So we just kind started to avoid each other. My fault too. I would know exactly what button to push and I would push it - every. damn. time.
    So I am pretty in tuned to how it doesn't work. Fail

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    Quote Originally Posted by mclaren88 View Post
    SLI - he's so nice in snap chat. Won't give me much actual time. Just starting to get to know (pft yeah right. He doesn't give away anything. And I beyond nervous to ask) eachother. I confronted him very early and he said it wouldn't work. I agreed. We stopped talking for 2 weeks. He started back up like nothing happened. And I was just...good with it. Like we didn't even have to talk about what caused it all. Then I tried to leave 3 ish more times. He told me the last time would be the last time. Then he started communication up again.
    I am like terrified of him and at the same time - know there is to much else going on under the 8inches of checker plate steel he has protecting his whole interior.
    Similar thing happened to me. That's typical for (young?) SLIs... It's so frustrating. They can be so self-centered that they forget and don't even think that they're causing confusion/hurt to their partner. And the problem is that they start doing this after you start liking them! They don't understand their own feelings, they can be very clueless to many things concerning people and relationships. When you get to know them, you'll realize that they're quite self-absorbed and what they care about the most is their comfort. Disturb that and they'll try to eliminate you from their lives. This is the dark side of SLIs. They need a shake up from to time so they don't get bored. What frustrates me the most is that they don't understand their own nature and are clueless about all this... which makes me want to help them and not leave when I'm supposed to do so...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy View Post
    Similar thing happened to me. That's typical for (young?) SLIs... It's so frustrating. They can be so self-centered that they forget and don't even think that they're causing confusion/hurt to their partner. And the problem is that they start doing this after you start liking them! They don't understand their own feelings, they can be very clueless to many things concerning people and relationships. When you get to know them, you'll realize that they're quite self-absorbed and what they care about the most is their comfort. Disturb that and they'll try to eliminate you from their lives. This is the dark side of SLIs. They need a shake up from to time so they don't get bored. What frustrates me the most is that they don't understand their own nature and are clueless about all this... which makes me want to help them and not leave when I'm supposed to do so...
    You've really got this down.

    Some things happened in my life which made me think I had to confront my own lack of understanding of myself, or apparent lack of understanding of others, in terms of the relationship sphere (not just romantic relations, we have relations with everyone). I think I remember mentioning to you before about the IEE I dated for a few years who lived in another city, I remember one time we were talking and she said something like, 'I understand you' which was a relief and I joked to say, 'at least one of us does', but I was being serious even although I was joking.

    After this relationship I dated someone for a short while and one time she said to me, 'you go to work, you talk to people, you laugh with people, you do things, but no one really knows you. How do you feel?' I had absolutely no idea how to answer that question when put in the spot, except to say, 'If I go to work, pay my bills, look out for people, does it matter how I feel?'

    It seems like when in a relationship with IEE, the problems for SLI in that area begin to get solved, but, to even begin to get them solved, takes a lot of work in getting there. I don't envy you guys , sorry for being us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy View Post
    More information about conflict in Duality Relationships (from Gulenko video):

    The long-term experience of monitoring dual relationships show that duality is not a panacea (the opposite of what Aushra thought). Although without any doubt, duality has a very great psychological condition, the question is how to work with it correctly.
    Would you tell us about the modern ideas about duality and how it is different from Aushra's teaching and how our school understand that?
    First of all, duality, how it is described by Aushra as a recipe for happiness is ofcourse an exaggeration. The modern person is very hasty and wants to get the quick result and duality is a slow process. It's very difficult to understand your dual using only your mind and logic, however you can feel your dual.
    It's very necessary to go all the way from disagreements to reconciliations in order to begin appreciating your dual with this whole dignity 100%
    Duality is a deep relationship and if anybody is inclined to some sort of temporary flirtation then ofcourse the expectations will not be justified. You will suffer from the fact that you will get stuck in it and then you won't know how to get out of it.
    Ofcourse, dual could also be your enemy and it's a very unpleasant situation. It can severly play on your nerves and even damage you. There are conflicts with your dual, but you see those conflicts less and less during the process of grinding (is that the right word?). However, if there is a deep conflict with your dual, then it's going to be very painful and it will lead to a breakup.
    Maybe you can ask the question: why does it happen?
    There are two basic reasons. First of all, you don't have the right experience with communicating with your dual and you don't know how to react correctly to certain surprises from that part. Second of all, duality is strongly influenced by the individual variant of the subtype. If two duals have dominant subtype, then it will be very difficult to get along for them. Another example is that the normalizing dual would upset the creative dual by trying to forcefully put them in a framework which ofcourse will undermine the relationship. And, the biggest idea of duality is that you don't need to change each other.
    However, if duality happens, then you become dependant on your dual as your dual start depending on you. Example, an LII who really suffered after the death of his ESE wife, so he fell into a deep depression and psychological crisis and after her death he drastically changed his interests, from science he became interested in politics so his interests sharply changed. And this sharp change, ruined relationships not only with colleagues but also with his children.
    I like this, all of it but the bolded part too.

    I've always had the opinion (or I've developed it) that relationships won't work unless there's a fight. I think it's somewhat common to say that fights only happen in Beta (or Se quadra) but a fight is necessary (although always undesired) to see where the relationship will go.

    Duals, and people of the same quadra fight. Everyone fights. The difference between people of favorable intertype relations and unfavorable intertype relations is how they make up from and resolve those fights.

    It's like a test of a relationship. If it can't bounce back from a fight, and the fight isn't used constructively to have a productive deeper understanding of each other, then what will it say about the challenges that relationship will face in life that life can and will throw at you?

    Relationships that don't work, that aren't good, are those that continue to spiral downwards and disintegrate after that fight, one fight after another creating more fights rather than creating and realizing solutions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by at sirac son of sirac View Post
    It seems like when in a relationship with IEE, the problems for SLI in that area begin to get solved, but, to even begin to get them solved, takes a lot of work in getting there. I don't envy you guys , sorry for being us.
    IEE probably make SLIs more aware of it but like you said it's pretty hard because it's your nature! Acceptance and understanding are probably the solution? SLI I was close to, often talked in a way that I find it hard to understand when he's being serious or no, so I was always just guessing, but like that I could understand more things about him. Because if I ask him directly he will just put those walls again. I noticed also sometimes when I tell him and try to explain to him the reason of the conflict, he believes me! Even though the reason might not be accurate. That's how I realized that he really is clueless about things like that.

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    Hey @Daisy I may have some ideas for this (or not ha) I'll try to remember to come back later, just wanted to say as have some stuff on just now

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy View Post
    Similar thing happened to me. That's typical for (young?) SLIs... It's so frustrating. They can be so self-centered that they forget and don't even think that they're causing confusion/hurt to their partner. And the problem is that they start doing this after you start liking them! They don't understand their own feelings, they can be very clueless to many things concerning people and relationships. When you get to know them, you'll realize that they're quite self-absorbed and what they care about the most is their comfort. Disturb that and they'll try to eliminate you from their lives. This is the dark side of SLIs. They need a shake up from to time so they don't get bored. What frustrates me the most is that they don't understand their own nature and are clueless about all this... which makes me want to help them and not leave when I'm supposed to do so...

    It took me a while to realize I had replies lol Worst. Millennial. Ever. lol
    So I think he plays a very good "What do you mean?" game. We aren't talking right now.
    We cleared up a few things and I then I called him on his "punishment" to me. I told him I would pay time for any crime but he was being unfair about it because in my eyes - and I think any non-SLI eyes - they would agree.
    He is a enneagram 8 - I have no doubt about that. So he is testing me. Seeing if I have what it takes to be loyal and endure his darkness. I am an enneagram 7. Which fleeting when times get tough is my thing. Seemingly this should fail hard. However, I have been soul searching and I have found my purpose - he is exactly who I want him to be my partner in crime - to get there. However, if it wasn't for socionics - I would think this guy is a sociopath. Seeing and reading what I have about SLIs - I understand why this duality paring is so difficult - but I also see the abundant amount of beauty in it. Every ounce of effort - has been completely 100% worth it.
    I feel like I am always helping people and trying to help them be the best they can be. Through all of this - it was actually him - who left me better than he found me. Even if he walks away forever - I will be incredibly grateful for him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mclaren88 View Post
    It took me a while to realize I had replies lol Worst. Millennial. Ever. lol
    So I think he plays a very good "What do you mean?" game. We aren't talking right now.
    We cleared up a few things and I then I called him on his "punishment" to me. I told him I would pay time for any crime but he was being unfair about it because in my eyes - and I think any non-SLI eyes - they would agree.
    He is a enneagram 8 - I have no doubt about that. So he is testing me. Seeing if I have what it takes to be loyal and endure his darkness. I am an enneagram 7. Which fleeting when times get tough is my thing. Seemingly this should fail hard. However, I have been soul searching and I have found my purpose - he is exactly who I want him to be my partner in crime - to get there. However, if it wasn't for socionics - I would think this guy is a sociopath. Seeing and reading what I have about SLIs - I understand why this duality paring is so difficult - but I also see the abundant amount of beauty in it. Every ounce of effort - has been completely 100% worth it.
    I feel like I am always helping people and trying to help them be the best they can be. Through all of this - it was actually him - who left me better than he found me. Even if he walks away forever - I will be incredibly grateful for him.
    Best of luck to you, @mclaren88.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Best of luck to you, @mclaren88.
    Lol I'm probably going to need it

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    Quote Originally Posted by j0ker View Post
    Hi,

    Thanks for the referrer link. After a long hiatus, I've got some good socionics insights that I wanted to write down.

    However, I must reply to this thread. My blog post is completely wrong. I was NOT talking about a duality relationship. I was talking about a Illusory relationship. These are dangerous relationships, because they look like Duality, but they are not. The name of the relationship is very good, but the description (as found on socionics.com) is very misleading. Go with my description instead -- they look like Duality but they are not.

    One post on here said something to the tune of "socionics does not really argue there are conflicts in duality." That is dead-on correct. If there is a conflict, beware! It's probably not duality.

    I plan to publish a longer blogpost fully expounding on the Illusory relationship.

    Basically, TL;DR, these takeaways
    1) my blogpost is about illusory, not duality.
    2) illusory relationships are dangerous b/c they fool you into thinking they're duality, but they're not
    3) psychoanalysis is easy to get wrong. Be very, very careful! Better to just ask the person to take the test and from there tweak a letter or too, since people usually don't even understand themselves that well!
    figured as much. Reading your OP, I kind of assumed your relationship probably wasn't duality.
    Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx

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    I think conflict exists in duality but not in terms of socionics conflict, rather conflict in the general sense. just because you're duals doesn't mean you suddenly want the same things. its like duals have been on opposite sides in wars, and you can shrink that down to what's for dinner or who's family for Christmas, etc. In the sense of competing values at the psychological level, no conflict does not exist, but that is a relatively narrow and special meaning of conflict. Conflict as in the dictionary definition: a serious disagreement or argument happens all the time. I think what makes duality special is in some ways it turns most arguments into arguments in the most benign sense. arguments like academia would prefer everyone treat arguments, which are good faith disagreements over issues that neither party demonizes the other over, but rather resolves constructively mainly through peaceful dialogue. inasmuch as duality is conducive to constructive resolution these "conflicts" build trust because instead of them spiraling downward into a bottomless pit they engender increased future trust because you come out the other end and find the light at the end of the tunnel--that you can be honest and assertive with your dual and nevertheless end up with a positive outcome. this is something interactions with your super ego tend not to produce, i.e.: they tend to involve a zero sum competition not a synergetic one (synergy is by being yourself helping others, rather than having to give up something of yourself to help).

    I think conflict in the socionics sense also can eventually get to this place as well, but it is more in the ultra long term transcendent function sense where "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" which is why super egos exist at all (by this I mean super ego needs an evolutionary reason for existing in the first place, and it can't be because it is an absolute negative). this talk of conflict in either sense of the word as being inherently bad I feel is misguided because you have to think of all of humanity in some sense as one organism, and find the order in the chaos in some sense. its not a straight linear progression of good feelings all the time or its not duality, just like conflict is not always a straight progression of negative feelings. what makes people human is precisely their ability to transcend exactly those simple dynamics. do I think this makes conflict and duality essentially equal? not at all, but I do think it is way too strong to say inter quadra conflicts are irreconcilable and that fights never provide greater understanding. in fact I think the purpose of fights is to provide for greater understanding, whether within the context of duality or conflict, its just the ease from which the understanding flows that characterizes the relative productiveness and comfort of the relationships one to another.

    Jung thought in terms of the transcendent function which was the self moving toward growth, with things like the ego and the super ego being differentiated aspects of the self, like compartments within it, sub personalities if you will, fighting for dominance. its not so much that one must win, its that they all move forward together (and this forward movement is powered by them bouncing off eachother). duality makes this a smoother process, but conflict can no less move one forward. in the same way duality can entail "trouble" requiring one "to move"--in some sense movement is required wherever perfection is lacking, and duals "correct" eachother all the time, its just the pain involved lands on receptive rather than painful functions. but its nevertheless a similar process in adjusting other individuals. people can get so entrenched that resistance across even suggestive functions can occur and lead to arguments with a dual. duals don't suddenly wants exactly the same things as their dual, rather duality is the process whereby they come to resolve conflicts in a healthy way, not the complete absence of them. at least that's how I think of it. I also think conflict resolution in this sense has a positive valence, which is why we call duality "desirable" or "good" or "healthy". its when you manage to do something you didn't want to do but are glad you did it and are grateful to whoever inspired you to make that move. that's what people want their duals for, to provide for exactly that--a partner in life who helps them productively move forward. if just making wants isomorphic to one's own one were the entire purpose one could just stay single or get a snake or clone oneself or whatever

    people's functions are "filled" with idiosyncratic content, type is simply the structure that shapes how that content communicates itself. conflict and duality are actually both relations of high communication, but one is simply across a painful function and the other not, its not that your conflictor miscommunicates so much as we tend to color the painful nature of their actually typically very clear communication as intentionally painful i.e.: evil, and wish we could ignore it. its actually in learning from our conflictor that we learn very valuable things. the reason duality is great is because it accomplishes a similar degree of communication but in a more pleasant and therefore usually more productive manner. if people were perfectly mature I would argue conflict would be the better relationship, so in that sense maturity is more an issue between conflictors than duals
    Last edited by Bertrand; 02-20-2018 at 02:10 AM.

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    So true. SLI I'm close to is also enneagram 8, and he's exactly like you described and did the loyality test, he even told me at first that I will be disappointed by him and that I will leave him because I will see how bad he is... he was terrified of rejection, and from his past friendships, it seems he started seeing himself in a bad way because of his tendency to ruin relations...

    Quote Originally Posted by mclaren88 View Post
    Seeing and reading what I have about SLIs - I understand why this duality paring is so difficult - but I also see the abundant amount of beauty in it. Every ounce of effort - has been completely 100% worth it.
    I feel like I am always helping people and trying to help them be the best they can be. Through all of this - it was actually him - who left me better than he found me. Even if he walks away forever - I will be incredibly grateful for him.
    True! I discovered a side of myself with him that I didn't know was there, he often said things about me that I was unaware of but it just made sense, and I was left thinking and surprised by how he knew that even though we didn't talk much, he got to know me just by observing it seems. It was very strange in a way, we didn't communicate a lot but our behaviors said more than words. I didn't feel like this with any person. And we both helped each other unconsciously or consciously. It's impossible to forget something like this or even replace it for me at least... Just being next to each other was great!

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    This thread is really good.

    I'm not too keen on enneagram personally, but I think I have an 8 fix at least, and may even be an 8

    I relate a lot to what is being said here.

    I too have ruined a lot of friendships that could have otherwise had potential, it's awkward to talk about, I just try to be philosophical about the situation.

    My friend is an SLI-Te E8, I'm not sure if I have a subtype, probably balanced or SLI-Si.

    SLI E9s are much more amiable I think, but the contrasts are less. With E8s, there can be cruelty, but also great acts of kindness, and there is excitement too I think, so it just depends what you want, or what you have

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy View Post
    @j0ker
    Woah I didn't expect this! I'm not sure that there is no conflict in Duality, I heard many say they had it very difficult with duals (the first stage) but then it becomes easy. So all mistyped? I'm not sure about that...

    Edit: After thinking about it, maybe the conflict in Dual relations is caused by issues of one of the partners and it's not really socionics related. Because I guess if you have problems, it will prevent you from being completly your healthy self and it just becomes a mess.
    People come in life with their own baggage which will affect any relationship, even the relationship they have with themselves.

    As Gulenko said in the article you kindly posted,

    Quote Originally Posted by Gulenko
    Of course, dual could also be your enemy and it's a very unpleasant situation. It can severly play on your nerves and even damage you. There are conflicts with your dual, but you see those conflicts less and less during the process of grinding (is that the right word?). However, if there is a deep conflict with your dual, then it's going to be very painful and it will lead to a breakup.
    Duals have the potential to be good, but it's just one factor in many. Sometimes, a dual can meet another dual, and it doesn't work out, simply because one of the duals does not like the other dual (which can be for many reasons, their historical experience or personal preference for a few reasons.)

    I know some SLIs who curse and swear like troopers (construction workers mainly), then there is the academic Chemistry PhD SLI that I know who is rather nerdy. Behavior or lack of it, could very well affect a potential mate or friends attitude, dual or otherwise.

    So, it all depends.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gulenko IEE-SLI description
    Interacting with others, the IEE makes an impression of a person who is decisive and confident in himself. He is able to mobilize his will in extreme situations. However, due to normative nature of this function, his assertiveness and pushiness can turn to scandalous aggression and even physical abuse (especially for male representatives of this type). The SLI manages and directs this function for the IEE by formulating and providing him with appropriate advice: "Demand it from him," "Go to your boss, and state what you want," or, conversely, "Don't push him", "It's a private matter", "Leave this person alone". In the initial stage of dualization, this may take the form of quarrels and stormy discussions between them.
    http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...ons_by_Gulenko

    I previously met a friend of a family relative at an evening out, and he was a male IEE. It was really weird for me, he spent a lot of time talking to me about physical fighting and how he fights dirty, I would say to him, for instance, 'well, if you hit a man and he goes down, leave it at that', not that i'm condoning fighting, but if it happens, don't resort to scandalous abuse by either physical abuse or one's own emotional problems resulting in scandalous aggression, or, in terms of socionics, a poor control/attitude to role Se.

    So, I think the chap had issues to do with security (I think he'd been sleeping on a friends couch), issues with being smaller than average, and perhaps issues to do with his homosexuality (not coming to terms with it, perhaps thinking he has to compensate by being 'manly' etc).

    Anyway, I didn't wish him any harm, but he appeared to want us to remain friends, which is something I didn't want - I had enough issues in my own life than to take on what appeared to a somewhat frightening individual with potential violent or emotional outbursts, he could land me into trouble simply by being party to him.

    So, i'm not trying to be harsh in any way, about the chap I spoke about, it's just one example of many where duality is not 'the perfect relationship', and of course i'm not perfect either and have no doubt annoyed at least some duals in my time.

    Edit:

    I wanted to add, the following

    Quote Originally Posted by article
    However, let's not idealise these relations too much. Although theoretically relations of Duality are the best of the best, practically not everybody who is your Dual will make your dreams come true. The reason for this is that we are usually so twisted up during the course of our lives that our already formed and stable views and attitudes can affect our relationships quite heavily. In fact, younger people have more chance to succeed in the quest for their perfect partner than older people. But the chances are always there.
    http://www.socionics.com/rel/dlt.htm

    I've always had the opinion that it's good to try to stay away/resistant to the affects of life, because life, and situations can change you. Well, it's not bad I suppose, but the change that concerns me, is the change that makes me jaded. Life can beat you down. A part of this resistance comes from the general stubborness of SLI to instead go with their own convictions.

    It occured to me, how, IEEs tend to be rather childish in how they act. I suppose, as we get older, and we're not settled down, maybe the somewhat resistance to conforming to some of the negatives of life as an SLI tends to do (some can even become 'loners', living their own lives outwith society), and coupled with the IEEs childishness and enthusiasm, maybe this dual pair can keep themselves young, and unjaded, ha

    Well, anyway, as for maturity, going by the description and finding our 'perfect partner', it's really a two edged sword I would say. Maturity is a good thing if it seasons an individual well, but it's not a good thing if it corrupts and makes an individual bitter, which sadly, can happen to many, and then make relationships even more complicated with lifes 'baggage'.

    So, marry young, haha
    Last edited by at sirac son of sirac; 02-20-2018 at 07:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by at sirac son of sirac View Post
    It occured to me, how, IEEs tend to be rather childish in how they act. I suppose, as we get older, and we're not settled down, maybe the somewhat resistance to conforming to some of the negatives of life as an SLI tends to do (some can even become 'loners', living their own lives outwith society), and coupled with the IEEs childishness and enthusiasm, maybe this dual pair can keep themselves young, and unjaded, ha
    Why do you think SLIs trust them easily when they're so mistrustful of people lol because they look so airheaded and childish or just strange. I am always surprised by how SLIs mood improve just by some random thing I do or say and they just lighten up after being angry/sad and the thing is that it happens just when I'm around them, not focusing on them, but talking with others. They just like and feel comfortable with anyone who's spontaneous and laid back I guess. And unfortunately, I can see the SLI I know becoming a loner from now, he told me once that the sadness that gets him when he's alone is his happiness. SLIs, really complex people... and too secretive...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy View Post
    Why do you think SLIs trust them easily when they're so mistrustful of people lol because they look so airheaded and childish or just strange. I am always surprised by how SLIs mood improve just by some random thing I do or say and they just lighten up after being angry/sad and the thing is that it happens just when I'm around them, not focusing on them, but talking with others. They just like and feel comfortable with anyone who's spontaneous and laid back I guess. And unfortunately, I can see the SLI I know becoming a loner from now, he told me once that the sadness that gets him when he's alone is his happiness. SLIs, really complex people... and too secretive...
    Yeah well haha, IEEs, they just seem as though, if they have an agenda, it's not a ... controlling one. Hmmm, for instance, if to use this socionics thing ha They don't make me feel like they're going to try to elucidate some energetic condition out of me (fancy phrase for Fe) or try to make me do something contrary to my comfort (no Se pushiness), so it's nice.

    I work in the vicinity of an IEE, and an example of the sort of thing she does. She's talking about an umbrella (why I don't know) then she's like, 'Oh! .... I better go and show so and so this umbrella etc etc" then she like skips away to show someone this umbrella, and i'm like .... what in the world is she doing hahahaha. It's just refreshing to meet an adult who doesn't seem to have an alterior motive and is genuinely caught up in what's just caught her eye (Ne hidden possibilites doesn't have to be big things, it can be just little things, most of the stuff we do day and day is little things )

    Regards SLIs becoming loners, it can happen. When I was like, 21 or 22 years old, I became friends with an older SLI. He was set up for batchelorhood. Had his own little hobbies, drinking real ale, going to see world cinema films (Italian films, German films, French films etc). I kind of clocked it myself at that time, that I didn't want to turn out that way. Hey, but if they or I do turn out that way, it's not entirely not through their chosing, sometimes it's not so bad.

    I recall Jung mentioning that the thing about IP types in general, is that people (or society as a whole) can learn from them by how they live their lives.

    As for the older SLI I mentioned, he's set up for permanent batchelorhood, yeah, but, he has a 4 bedroom apartment which is all paid off, and enough money to retire early to pursue what he wants to do in life, which doesn't look like that much But, there's worse things too, and worse positions to be in I suppose.

    As for your SLI, you never know what's round the corner. You've got enough intuition to know what to do, and I wish both you guys all the best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by at sirac son of sirac View Post
    I recall Jung mentioning that the thing about IP types in general, is that people (or society as a whole) can learn from them by how they live their lives.
    Interesting point...

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    yes I would say the most I ever learned from a relationship was with a SLI. I grew up with EIE and it was all "declarative" morality, then I just saw SLI live a principled existence without all the hollering and it was a major watershed moment for me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    yes I would say the most I ever learned from a relationship was with a SLI. I grew up with EIE and it was all "declarative" morality, then I just saw SLI live a principled existence without all the hollering and it was a major watershed moment for me
    Haha EIEs are crazy, they don't rest until they make a scene out of something. Nah they don't rest even after it, but create more scenes... they don't know resting...

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    yeah it really sucks being raised to think thats normal, because I think I turned off a shitload of people who I would have got along with great were I not imitating that fucked up example. the funny thing is you go back to that family which then tries to support you by telling you you're just not doing it enough, because to them it is normal. so you're left with no one who understands. except you, my socionics darlings

    but I think that exact dynamic is how people become isolated in society and it can happen any which way. betas raised by deltas, etc. in the end one must be oneself even if in being oneself you're hamlet the actor, which I think is the true therapeutic value of socionics. there's a lid for every pot and all this

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    Hey @Daisy,

    I was thinking the other day about your question, about how SLIs like and trust IEEs, and about how being around IEEs can make them seem happier.

    I think I answered a little bit, but something occurred to me yesterday in regards to the IEE whom I mentioned that I work in the vicinity of.

    I noticed yesterday, that she passed a small assortment of confectionary at work, OK it is not a big deal but I noticed her noticing them and going, 'mmMMMMmm'. Like not in a way that she wanted to eat them, but in a way as if she was seeing some sort of hidden potential, intuition of possibilities, maybe she thought one of the items were cool, maybe she was thinking about who would like it, I don't know, but it made me laugh, like her surprise at to me is something ... mundane.

    I think with S, especially for me with Si, when I see the world, I see it pretty much as it is, but when Ne (IEE) see the world, the see the hidden potential in the little things. I think this different perspective of the world can break the monotony of Si - SLI, who sees it just more or less as it is, and the other perspective a creates delightful time out for me.

    Anyway I came across this, http://www.socionics.com/advan/wheel...TeFiNeSeTiFeNi which seems to show how each of the 8 functions will have an affect on someone depending on their type, and it refers to 's affect on SLI as:

    '(Ne) ....which would result in pleasing and delightful time-outs.'

    Anyway I just wanted to share that with you, in case you thought it was interesting and/or useful

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    @at sirac son of sirac
    Yes! Exactly like that lol. I think that's a very great observation about IEEs.
    There was a time when there was this man seemed strange to me, I was watching him and puzzled by him, trying to figure out why he's acting that way or just see something about him that was not apparent and many things were going through my mind at that moment staring at him. SLI was near me, so I turned to him surprised and told him that this man is weirdest man I've seen. And that was amusing for him somehow. We were a group of people there, but no one noticed how strange that guy was acting or tried to think about it. I also noticed that sometimes I will be just talking nonsence and he always picks up on the important part and tell me which part of what I said hold more truth.

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