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Thread: Do you see the demonstrative function in others?

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    Default Do you see the demonstrative function in others?

    It is strong, 4d, but it is unconscious and the creative function is preferred over the demonstrative.
    How obvious is the demonstrative function in other types?




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    I kind of see the demonstrative as a running water pump that we constantly filter with the creative. It is an area we are able to satisfy so easy and naturally that focus towards areas related to it seem mundane and we'd rather explore and dabble into the contrary aspect of that element, the creative.

    Using your type ESE as an example, you'd find it easy to be active and assert yourself, and would rather learn ways to create harmony and better the well-being of yourself and those around you. Someone with Si demonstrative/Se creative would be the opposite: they find it really easy to be in a harmonious state and would rather explore subjects dealing with action and force. So really the demonstrative is kind of like a default mode of behavior, we just disregard it in favor of the creative because the demonstrative is milked too dry to be of any use to us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    I kind of see the demonstrative as a running water pump that we constantly filter with the creative. It is an area we are able to satisfy so easy and naturally that focus towards areas related to it seem mundane and we'd rather explore and dabble into the contrary aspect of that element, the creative.

    Using your type ESE as an example, you'd find it easy to be active and assert yourself, and would rather learn ways to create harmony and better the well-being of yourself and those around you. Someone with Si demonstrative/Se creative would be the opposite: they find it really easy to be in a harmonious state and would rather explore subjects dealing with action and force. So really the demonstrative is kind of like a default mode of behavior, we just disregard it in favor of the creative because the demonstrative is milked too dry to be of any use to us.
    How about Ni-demonstrative?

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    It's more often assumed in what people do, but not seen directly.

    The example, I talked with SEI girl. I described what happened recently and she've noticed I was hurted by the situation. She've tried to cheer me, to disparage the meaning of what hurted me. She did not show the compassion openly (like you may see in base Fi eyes), her emotions were Fe (I perceived her behavior as rude and misplaced), but she've understood my state by Fi and was motivated by compassion (Fi) to make me feel better.
    I saw same in IEI. When they notice you feel bad, they try to cheer you, while Fi types show the direct compassion.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    It's more often assumed in what people do, but not seen directly.

    The example, I talked with SEI girl. I described what happened recently and she've noticed I was hurted by the situation. She've tried to cheer me, to disparage the meaning of what hurted me. She did not show the compassion openly (like you may see in base Fi eyes), her emotions were Fe (I perceived her behavior as rude and misplaced), but she've understood my state by Fi and was motivated by compassion (Fi) to make me feel better.
    I saw same in IEI. When they notice you feel bad, they try to cheer you, while Fi types show the direct compassion.
    ^Well, there is a realization in valuers that you don't matter and I don't matter in big picture. We do not need love(=). Universe will collapse or sun will burn out etc. None of that what you go through will not hold any bearings after that. Absolutely none.
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    Gulenko mentioned that what duals first notice about each other is the demonstrative function. IMO it's the most obvious function. For example, I didn't know how to spot "Ne" until I met an EIE and LIE. People often mistype themselves and others as the benefactor because of this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy View Post
    Gulenko mentioned that what duals first notice about each other is the demonstrative function. IMO it's the most obvious function. For example, I didn't know how to spot "Ne" until I met an EIE and LIE. People often mistype themselves and others as the benefactor because of this.
    Pretty much. Lots of times people put on their role as well.

    Like some EII's can be seen miles away with their . That detachment is very apparent. Not so much in IEI.


    I'd say that Mirage demonstrative is actually bit turn off. It i not she same as in dual. It deals with wrong aspects. It is not helping.

    In case of SLE IEI works as preventive help for next school shooting or terrorist attack by sorting out their feelings.
    In case of ILE SEI works as corrective help to settle in situations in present context where ILE can say lots of inappropriate stuff.

    It really doesn't match up.
    Last edited by BrightDemonSheep96; 12-30-2017 at 11:21 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    We do not need love(=)
    All 8 functions are similarly important. People just ignore it, to rationalize the issues of own distorted psyche.

    Also what a one understands as love there is strong influence of his superid. For IEI, like probably you, this may to be when someone wants to own you and then to have in some scheme like social role.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    Pretty much. Lots of times people put on their role as well.

    Like some EII's can be seen miles away with their . That detachment is very apparent. Not so much in IEI.
    Yes! LIIs too, even though I didn't meet one yet but I guess they're like that, detached and speculative. And EIEs are really imaginative and creative which you expect to see in ILE or IEE at first. But what you notice in IEEs is the bubbliness (Fe demonstrative).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    All 8 functions are similarly important. People just ignore it, to rationalize the issues of own distorted psyche.

    Also what a one understands as love there is strong influence of his superid. For IEI, like probably you, this may to be when someone wants to own you and then to have in some scheme like social role.
    OK.

    So, yeah I'm IEI now. So many problems due to ethical adaptation stuff so therefore I must be one. That's a new one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaebette View Post
    How about Ni-demonstrative?
    Hmmm, I find Ni to be little bit more difficult to describe accurately then Si/Se tbh.

    In EII I'd say the Ni demonstrative-Ne creative dynamic can most easily be seen in how they are naturally thoughtful and cautious yet always try to inject ideas that go against a tested/safe plan for the sake of Fi. In EII you will often see them see the going around making suggestions like," You don't have to do this mean/cruel thing to this person, try it this way instead that involves doing less harm to others."

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    Ni demonstrative in EII is when someone is talking shit on another person you defend them, or at least try to defuse the situation by saying, "you know he's probably thinking x not y (as you assume)" and from the perspective of x a lot of what they're doing becomes a lot more sympathetic. its proposing an underlying narrative that only pops in the alternative, but it wasn't developed so much as to an "excuse" generated on the spot with no basis, but is tapping into a deep current the EII is aware of, but only brings out as situations arise that merit doing so, otherwise they're content to let things develop naturally. in other words, Ni base is the flipside to Se, where there is a slightly imposing character to it, demonstrative Ni is basically keeping it on the backburner so as not to impose, but will bring it out to avoid even worse potential Se consequences and in order to promote relations that are at risk. its basically a form of risk management, directed at the weak Ni of LSE. it doesn't try to beat them over the head with it, and comes in a Ne package in response to environmental stimulus

    ethics of "forgiveness" compared to "disapproval" in ESI, which is to say the go-to mode of conflict resolution is not to gain the Se upper hand, but to find the common ground with which to understand the situation in such a way that Se is not necessary. forgiveness is not so much "sucking it up" although it appears that way sometimes, as it is legtimately seeing the underlying commonalities that make conflict not worth it. contrast this to the IEE which inverts ethical possibilites by gravitating to the furthest flung ethical alternative as a matter of entertainment and survival, EII is unified in they see the common stream uniting everyone thus they gravitate towards integration not the amusing chaos of IEE. IEE likes to "explode" ethical conflicts by dissolving the reality of any truth, whereas EII reconciles it by recourse to ultimate truth. of course this is in ethical scenarios. in day to day life EII can be humorous but its like that Adam Driver v Stephen Colbert way. IEE is more of an entertainer, EII is more subdued, but can be silly in a truly comfortable environment. this is in men of course, who are socialized to not be all manic pixy dream girl, so maybe some EII women are more zany

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    LII's with their demonstrative sounds wise beyond their years even when they are 120 years old.
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    in LII

    They seem to alway be in tune with the "purpose" or "direction" of the situation. And this is shown in concrete deeds. Like...

    "Now the work is done and we can relax".
    "I am not in a hurry".
    "Now is the time to make a decision".
    "Now we should get drunk" (in a bar).
    "Now when I'm talking to this girl I have to get her number"

    Also being able to say/do the right thing at the right time

    Even if they seem detached they can often step in and make a correction of the situation if needed.

    They always seem a little detached, like they are not really in the here-and-now, but more like observing the flow of events. (Just like somebody already said).
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
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    in SEI

    I often have a feeling with ILE/SLE that I am showing too much of my attitude. If its a friend then no problem, but if it is just somebody I don't know, then I cannot let my run free. They pull it out of me anyway.

    ILEs like it when I am subjective That was really a discovery.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
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    Yes, the demonstrative function is often obvious. Socionics likes to pretend the usage of demonstrative function is like panty lines - it's there, but rarely visible. But IMO, it's more like superman's underwear. It is blatantly obvious that he's wearing his underwear on top of his tights.

    IME, it becomes obvious in introtims after they have eased into the situation mentally and/or socially. How long that takes really varies based on the individual. With extrotims, Idk. I think it's frequently obvious from the 2nd or 3rd time I meet E types. In the first encounter, people seem to hold back (1) in general but also (2) with me. However, if I create a friendly discussion where they have to explain a few things to me or make their point in depth, then I can see their functions in action in the first meeting. Consequently, I can often also see their demonstrative and its strength in action.

    An ESI neighbor (probably harmonizing subtype) invited herself over the other day. We talked +Si/-Si for a while, primarily focusing on creating comfort, health products and healthy habits, but also how things can fall apart if you don't take care of yourself in certain ways. It was very interesting to see her 4D -Si: that subtle awareness of how internal physical states can disintegrate over time, how to stop it from happening, calculating other people's physical disintegration in terms of personal values.


    @Tallmo I find SEI's Fi demonstrative extremely useful. Whenever I'm in a new environment, they help me adapt to social situations by quickly informing me of what that group values, what specific individual preferences are (if it's different), the best way to interact with them, and how not to screw up budding relations. I've also found it useful to see what they find right or wrong. SEI-Normalizing's Fi can sometimes show up as overkill, but still, it's so useful most of the time

    In SEI-harmonizing, I see how they're gifted at understanding Fi based on the info they give me right away, but I also see how they struggle a bit to bridge the psychological gap in brand new situations. In those situations, they recognize my ease with talking to strangers and they ask if I can be a bridge to help them create new friendships. You know, get conversations started, talk about a few random things until common ground is established, help people open up about their interests and redirect those strangers to SEI-H for specific bonding opportunities. I love helping them because they make it easy and enjoyable for me.


    In IEI Normalizing, -Fi shows up slowly and cautiously. But when they feel comfortable sharing, it's honestly surprising what all bothers them. There is of course a strong sense of right and wrong. But there's also this: "This (understandable flaw in someone's personality) is so wrong. I hate him." "I hate X physical characteristic about Y group." "Z disgusts me so much." "Why isn't the support group open to me talking about how much I hate X? I just wish I had a place to talk about how much I hate X." And it goes on like that like you've set up a playlist on repeat! I call it the Playlist of Repulsion. It also shows up as the willingness to permanently endure negative relations (and complain about them) instead of quickly acting on them to fix them.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Demonstrative Ni

    https://youtu.be/TUX4_IAa7CA
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


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    It's like a strong achievement that you don't get any satisfaction from showing off. Like when American media says "Three-time grammy winner Stuck-up Asshole etc was in the park today with his family" that's absolutely not the demonstrative function. The demonstrative function is like the opposite of that, because it naturally covers up weaknesses in others- not indirectly makes them feel like shit for being sucky at something. (why it's romantic with your dual instead of business-like as well) It's basically something you personally kick ass in, but not something your ego cares to show off. Your ego cares if somebody has your two ego functions and is bad at them (ie somebody bad at Ni or Fe I will rip them apart), but if somebody is poor in your id functions it finds it sexy & vulnerable. Id also relates to being instinctive like a baby and also tender romance like when you say 'shh baby' when you enter inside somebody. Kind of corny but you know what I mean.... polr hits are annoying because it feels like somebody is abusing your inner innocence instead of protecting it you know.

    So to answer your question- you can look for it if you really want to and see the strength of it, but in a society-sense it will be more hidden.

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    what I get from this - when you are floundering, you may bolster the credibility of your creative function with the demonstrative.

    According to Gulenko, getting by uncomfortably (in this demonstrative state) will draw your dual's attention to you...
    Surely for negative reason (?)

    There you are flaring the thing your dual finds most perplexing and can't relate to.
    In that moment your impression is that of a person they've misunderstood in the past - a conflictor by socionics. Time to exercise caution.

    Gulenko's example tells that SEI would demonstrate Fi "emotional belting" to come up against ILEs use of Te (=pedanticism?)

    but without perseverance and seeing past first impression, would we avoid or dislike our stressed-out dual?

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    Yeah XIIs’ certitude in their intuition, “something might go wrong so be wary feeling” for instance, is that 4D Ni. It’s pretty easy for me to spot, I don’t think I use it any more than they do. We are also strategic (about things that matter most - so Fi and Ti stuff respectively for EII and LII) without realizing it, and definitely strategic in dodging pressure on Se PoLR (avoiding confronting people or saying something that may make them attack or hurt us)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    why?
    self-discovery
    self-development
    optimism
    relationships
    communication
    high ideals

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    When I talk about personality with ILEs I find that they constantly check their own models with facts. They collect many data and facts from their living environments and online videos while I hardly ever doing so.

    On my demonstrative (Ni): A lot of my actions are indeed security-related or future-related. I also noticed similar behaviors from my EII friend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thistle View Post


    what I get from this - when you are floundering, you may bolster the credibility of your creative function with the demonstrative.

    According to DarkAngelFireWolf69, getting by uncomfortably (in this demonstrative state) will draw your dual's attention to you...
    Surely for negative reason (?)

    There you are flaring the thing your dual finds most perplexing and can't relate to.
    In that moment your impression is that of a person they've misunderstood in the past - a conflictor by socionics. Time to exercise caution.

    He is talking about Model G, where the 5th function is called "demonstrative" which is in Model A the 2nd function called "creative." Basically, it works the same way like in Model A where the 8th function demo offers support to the 2nd function creative.

    In the instance of when a type is in a stressful situation and they're forced to utilize their shadow functions (so to speak) and it's ineffective or in most cases, it worsens the situation, their dual can help and the quickest and most effective way is their dual will utilize their Model G creative function (Model A demo) because that function is highly reliable. People can subconsciously or unconsciously tell the difference between when their PoLR function is lead or (Model G creative) in others. It's because (Model G) creative/(Model A) demo is utilized specifically for the purposes of when in a stressful situation, so the function will amp up its intensity just for the purposes of getting out of that stressful situation. It's not really utilized normally since the psyche criticizes that function.

    Ex: IEI Te PoLR can easily get agitated by Te leads but also Te demonstrative (Model G)/creative (Model A) types. But they don't get agitated by their dual SLE who has reliable Te.

    Quote Originally Posted by thistle View Post
    but without perseverance and seeing past first impression, would we avoid or dislike our stressed-out dual?
    Duality has the appearance of being total opposites but their desired output is actually similar. It just takes time and work for most people to come to that realization. I think duality recognition is the culprit behind most of the misunderstandings between duality because 1. People almost always wrongly self-type so their ITRs are wrong; 2. Not only do people mistype, they also don't have a keen understanding of the types or how the relations are supposed to work; 3. People don't always want to dualize with every dual they come across; 4. Unrealistic expectations of duality.

    If a person grew up with their dual or was parented by a dual, they'll be familiar with what duality is like and can pick out duals better. The point is, people need to have a REALISTIC assessment of their suggestive function in order to understand themselves and how to relate to dual. ALL the functions work towards supporting the lead function, so every function that comes after the lead will operate based upon the lead function's purview and also how well the lead function manages the other functions. People don't have mastery over their suggestive, that's why it's called suggestive, as in being utilized when prompted. It's something like "monkey see, monkey do" more or less. It is a passive function and there's a lot of psychic energy that gets spent on recognizing and working on it, but it lacks nuance since understanding that function is limited and incomplete.

    When I met my direct dual (ILI-N) over a year ago, we quickly became friends. She understood how I am already and she could translate my Se to others to understand. It wasn't until recently that she told me her mother is SEE and it was extremely hard for her to grow up with her mom, but admits that's how she's able to recognize her duals. She was raised by her dual, and although it was difficult, it helped her assess and get constant exposure to her suggestive so she learned from her mom. She knows she'll never master Se, and that's not even what she wants, but she learned ways to utlize Se in some dire instances where it's called for because she learned from getting consistent exposure from her dual.

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    @Lolita, I'm glad you cleared that up

    The example given in above video then , rather describes SEI having a go at ILE for negative manifestations of their introverted thinking?
    If +Ti (+L) = balance for ILE, would -L be their undoing, and vice versa for SLE? Gulenko refers to object logic in the video, which I'm assuming to be the same thing as Business Logic.

    As it was, I understood Fe in model A to refer both to alleviating vibes and casting new ones. It is difficult for me to get my head around the idea of preferring one to the other (+Fe vs -Fe for example); even morseo the idea of one of those bringing stress and taking away from my flow state (social mission block per model G)

    Why would "reliable Te" be less grating to SEI or IEI? To use your wording.
    What makes it reliable - being provoked by necessity?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolita View Post
    I think duality recognition is the culprit behind most of the misunderstandings between duality because 1. People almost always wrongly self-type so their ITRs are wrong; 2. Not only do people mistype, they also don't have a keen understanding of the types or how the relations are supposed to work; 3. People don't always want to dualize with every dual they come across; 4. Unrealistic expectations of duality.
    wherever collaboration is required (thinking workplace, sports team, cohabiting, family), you will come to recognise the individuals you feel at ease with.
    Greater exposure to different IRL relations is beneficial to developing all functions, but an environment that fosters your social mission seems to be the most important for health.

    I think that acceptance of who you and believing that you have something to offer another person is integral to any successful partnership, because you will not look to a partner to supplement what you perceive yourself to be lacking. You will not be indebted.

    Once again, an environment that fosters your leading + creative function will give you a head start. As you display aptitude and confidence in this area, your dual (previously unidentified) will reveal through their actions that they admire it

    *UDR = unidentified dual relation

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    Quote Originally Posted by thistle View Post
    @Lolita, I'm glad you cleared that up

    The example given in above video then , rather describes SEI having a go at ILE for negative manifestations of their introverted thinking?
    If +Ti (+L) = balance for ILE, would -L be their undoing, and vice versa for SLE? DarkAngelFireWolf69 refers to object logic in the video, which I'm assuming to be the same thing as Business Logic.

    As it was, I understood Fe in model A to refer both to alleviating vibes and casting new ones. It is difficult for me to get my head around the idea of preferring one to the other (+Fe vs -Fe for example); even morseo the idea of one of those bringing stress and taking away from my flow state (social mission block per model G)

    Why would "reliable Te" be less grating to SEI or IEI? To use your wording.
    What makes it reliable - being provoked by necessity?
    Te for ILE is meant to support and execute Ti (same for SLE, although SLE arguably loves Te much more than ILE does), which is why G says that if ILE is unable to manifest their Ti thru Te, they will be "dull," meaning that they didn't get their ideas out so they're essentially stuck in their headspace. With SEI, they have Fe- so they tease and poke fun and be all sassy towards ILE to get ILE out of their funk. To outsiders, it looks like they're arguing and critiquing each other, but between them (this is the Fi part from SEI) it's just how their personal relation is, like playful jabbing. I think what most people don't understand is that SEI appears like doormats but with their personal relations, they get all indignant and diva and shit. My bestie is SEI (C subtype) and he's really diva and in public it looks like we're fighting and arguing, but we're actually not. That's just how we normally are since the moment we met. I mean, Alpha SFs be like that, cuz the Si. It's the stability, maintaining throughout what has been established.

    I use the word "reliable" to describe Model A demonstrative/Model G creative because that's what it is. The function is there and the psyche naturally has access to it but it's utilized with the express purposes of supporting the Model A creative/Model G demonstrative function, so it's not a function that's "on" all the time. I think that's why G precisely used the word "creative" for that function because it creates an output; the end result, the final product. So the function that produces the "final product" is not the same when it's in process mode. So process Te (for example) that's exemplified in LIE and LSE is gonna punch Te PoLR SEI and IEI. But the end result of Te from ILE and SLE takes on a different format. They utilize Te to support their Ti and that's how they come up with their conclusions.

    I mean I can give the technical explanation all day long, just that it won't really mean much unless you witness the ITR between correctly typed people for it to click.

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