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Thread: Decorum

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Fe valuers definitely can be clownish (which of course is the opposite of decorum) but again that in itself implies attention to how one is communicating.
    Yeah but in doing so they don't care about the how or the why it's communicated, they're just focusing on their own communication - which at the same time can even be regarded at T, hence T types in general like some rules to be set in social situations as lack of formality can make it difficult to know how to act, but then, rules being set can be as much about maintaining an energetic atmosphere as it is from disrupting pleasant inter-personal bonds.

    Amongst friends things are different, but in house jokes, quirks etc applies for all types.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarper View Post
    Deltas will let you live as long as you give them the space to live however they want ....[/COLOR]
    I see nothing wrong with that concept and in a perfect world.... But someone has to take the high road first in these matters which can often lead to a stalemate when someone's pride is involved.

    PS I have an Fi demon in the 8th position.

    I also have an inner circle of people from all quadras, not so surprisingly I guess. Mostly beta and gamma types but some deltas have managed to find their way into my heart. I am low on alphas atm. I think I scare alpha NTs too much.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



  3. #43
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    ^ I thought you were ILI haha.

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    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarper View Post
    ^ I thought you were ILI haha.
    Then it must be true.

    My type has been the same since I joined. Most who know me understand why I switch it up now and then. I suppose I use it to express irony at times plus I also like to observe how I am treated differently just by claiming a certain acronym, even though my song remains the same.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Then it must be true.
    It's the lack of ILI in LIE which makes you ENTJ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarper View Post
    It's the lack of ILI in LIE which makes you ENTJ.
    That is a new one!

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



  7. #47
    Haikus thehotelambush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarper View Post
    Yeah but in doing so they don't care about the how or the why it's communicated
    I disagree.

    they're just focusing on their own communication
    I'm not quite sure what this means but it sounds very similar to how I see Fi valuing extroverts, who would say make a joke that they think is funny without caring what the emotional effect on others would be - as opposed to an Fe mobilizing type who would make a joke to get a laugh out of someone. This is the difference between valued Fe and devalued Fe IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    I disagree.



    I'm not quite sure what this means but it sounds very similar to how I see Fi valuing extroverts, who would say make a joke that they think is funny without caring what the emotional effect on others would be - as opposed to an Fe mobilizing type who would make a joke to get a laugh out of someone. This is the difference between valued Fe and devalued Fe IMO.
    T types in general have issues with saying inappropriate comments, due their dulled development of F against T.

    With Fx mobilizing function, it can be worse, due to even weaker F, and since - with XLEs, they value the energetic condition, they can attempt to affect it in hugely inappropriate ways,

    'He cannot always discern the state of another person; he may therefore offend others in the manner by which he expresses what he’s discovered for he doesn’t seem to take into account other’s feelings in regards to the situation. But this is never the consequence of evil intent, envy or arrogance. ILE simply believes that he is speaking about something objectively, and that the truth will not offend anyone…' - Fi PoLR of ILE http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...Don_Quixote.29

    Take it to be they don't care how it affects others, or they simply don't know, then it's mostly a matter of semantics as it can affect any types weak with F. So i'm not one for saying that that Fi types 'behave like animals' as you do (nor Fe types either) - but it's up to you what you want to do, but unless you can be clearer - or can be bothered to, blanket statements such as you make is possibly more a quadra bias than a statement of practical reality.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post

    I'm not quite sure what this means but it sounds very similar to how I see Fi valuing extroverts, who would say make a joke that they think is funny without caring what the emotional effect on others would be - as opposed to an Fe mobilizing type who would make a joke to get a laugh out of someone. This is the difference between valued Fe and devalued Fe IMO.
    Ehh. SLEs can be huge desruptors of someone's social setting.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Ehh. SLEs can be huge desruptors of someone's social setting.
    Yes but the disruption is intentional.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Yes but the disruption is intentional.
    I'll re-iterate for you,

    'He cannot always discern the state of another person; he may therefore offend others in the manner by which he expresses what he’s discovered for he doesn’t seem to take into account other’s feelings in regards to the situation. But this is never the consequence of evil intent, envy or arrogance. ILE simply believes that he is speaking about something objectively, and that the truth will not offend anyone…' - Fi PoLR of ILE http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...Don_Quixote.29

    The disruption is not necessarily intentional. Actually, they're mostly oblivious.

    (Of course any type - any person can intentionally disrupt, but whatever you're talking about, it's something else, anyway thanks for the convo.)

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    lol you guys are just struggling with a fundamentally ethical issue in hamfisted terms. the bottom line is decorum and rudeness mean different things so you're never going to pin the tail on the donkey this way and send out the spectre of ethical dissaproval with one type or the other. just realize decorum and its analogue rudeness are things that mean different things to different people, and that extends to interpretations of type itself. i.e.: is SLE or SEE rude etc. see the constant attempts to send out the evil with trump by pegging him to one type (is SLE rude or is donald a SEE?--you can solve the "conundrum" in varying ways). its a losing proposition because even if you agree the person is bad you defend the honor of the type. there's a kind of circularity in justifying the underlying picture of the world but via some kind of proxy issue or debate. the bottom line is the best way to capture things is to acknowledge decorum means different things in the mouth of different people. so to say one type or another falls down or concerns themselves more than another in this regard is going to implicate differing perceptions on that type and what's really going on with them.. there's sort of an infinite language game trying to slice things but it can only do so much because people can agree on all the verbiage and still fundamentally draw differing conclusions on the basis of what those words represent. in other words, the difference goes so deep language is not going to adequately resolve the difference. you are in the realm of ethical intuitions pertaining to type the salve for which is not a battle of competing logical definitions with no ultimate commensurability, but rather a look into the heart of the matter which is something that plays out in an entirely different way

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    For myself, i'm OK in familiar settings, but I don't do so well in unfamiliar settings, where i'll worry more about putting my foot in it. This conversation has made me look into this a bit more,

    SLI Fi PoLR Filatova:

    'Fe – Painful function. SLI prefers to conceal his emotions. Outwardly he seems impenetrable and unemotional. This is partly due to the fact that he is poorly capable of detecting the moods of people around him and also he fears that showing his emotions may seem inappropriate or ridiculous. This forces him to retain a psychological distance. However, this distance should not be dejecting: if anyone asks SLI for help, he most likely won't turn the person down, but will listen and provide aid, and even sympathize with the misfortune.'

    In unfamiliar settings with too many variables, I can be aware of clamming up and worrying about putting my foot in it. Around friends, or familiar colleagues at work, I can seem much more relaxed, but change the environment to a night out with colleagues, or a different group of people with unknown variables in an unknown setting, I become very aware of an inability in attempts at 'detecting the moods' of others around me and 'expressing emotions' which may seem ridiculous, so I seem psychologically withdrawn at these times.

    Also it's how i can ignore familiar people in unusual settings, i'm aware I have an inter-personal connection with the familiar person (Fi) but i'm focusing on working out how to deal with the remaining 'variables', 'targets', I suppose a bit of machine at times in how how I assess situations.

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    Haikus thehotelambush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarper View Post
    I'll re-iterate for you,

    'He cannot always discern the state of another person; he may therefore offend others in the manner by which he expresses what he’s discovered for he doesn’t seem to take into account other’s feelings in regards to the situation. But this is never the consequence of evil intent, envy or arrogance. ILE simply believes that he is speaking about something objectively, and that the truth will not offend anyone…' - Fi PoLR of ILE http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...Don_Quixote.29

    The disruption is not necessarily intentional. Actually, they're mostly oblivious.

    (Of course any type - any person can intentionally disrupt, but whatever you're talking about, it's something else, anyway thanks for the convo.)
    I agree with the description but this is talking about inattention to Fi, not Fe. Offending someone is different from say, being obnoxious or incongruent with the intended emotional atmosphere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    I agree with the description but this is talking about inattention to Fi, not Fe. Offending someone is different from say, being obnoxious or incongruent with the intended emotional atmosphere.
    You can't have Fi PoLR without Fe mobilzing. I'm not sure of your point at all, it's too abstract, and impractical for typing, since Fi PoLR will manifest itself and influence the Fe mobilizing too. ILE will share their 'truth' in a way they think is funny, but that's irrelevant, since it's usually some inappropriate subject whilst in mixed company.

    But, each to their own.

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    One thing I've realized over the last few days is how easily decorum can get out of control, and lead to conflict.

    For example: my family insisted on everyone having a Christmas Eve dinner at 8:00pm and stay up until midnight, simply because this is what they've always done.

    However, some members had flown in from Australia the same day (which takes over 8 hours if you include the airport commute + customs + driving to get here). Meanwhile, my immediate family all had to stay up the entire night before because of my brother's alcoholic coma. Then we had to pack and travel in the car for over 4 hours. And we had a breakdown on the way, which held us up further.

    You get an idea of where I'm going here. Rigid conventions can make an event too inflexible, and it's inconsiderate to dismiss how much your guests' emotional state would benefit from a good night's rest. Calling people who leave your party early "rude", and insisting they stay on when nobody really feels like it leads to a negative, resentful vibe. I would rather have no party at all than a party full of tired, grumpy and bitchy people who didn't really want to be there. Is "doing things as we've always done" really worth all the repressed anger and squabbling over petty bullshit?

    It goes on and on. Everyone was also expected to turn up and unwrap presents at 9am this morning. (Never mind all the hangovers.) To me, there is absolutely no reason why we couldn't have had our ceremony a little later. Now I am pissed off, because I have had to wear more unprovoked, passive-aggressive crap from my aunt. At the end of the day, I am much more concerned about people (including myself) feeling merry, jovial, a bit lustful and aroused perhaps, than adhering to codes of behaviour which are fake, contrived and stifling of genuine emotional expression.

    As an aside, I also dislike the way that dinner guests are taken for granted by many members of my family. Part of the pleasure in hosting is the opportunity to entertain in a unique and memorable fashion. Expecting me to wait on my hosts and other guests, clear plates and wash dishes is not "politeness" and "pitching in", it's extremely disrespectful of me, and a sign of laziness. I will not allow anyone to treat me like some kind of waiter when they invited me as a guest to their house, so I will not return next year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    ESE's are one of the types most concerned with etiquette in society. Reading this forum one would think ESE's wouldn't give a shit if someone takes a dump in the middle of a theatre play or spits into a baby's face, since Fe = no judgment of anything ever. Fe is a rational, judging IE, the last time I checked.

    Edit: there's also a huge difference in logical/ethical Fe valuing types, you cannot compare how SLE reacts to something vs. ESE. It's not all the same just because they're Fe valuing ffs.
    This is spot on. I wish I could have the accepting nature of an IEE. Their Fi is so well... creative/flexible. I'm judgmental about ethical related issues. And far more judgmental than an EIE.
    “Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace.”



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    Socionics has helped me understand my family members and the conflict we have better. After all, everyone has a different impression of what decorum means.

    For me, it just means "don't be a self-righteous asshole."

    Assholery to me is taking out your anxiety and need to be perfect on me, or somebody else who is innocent and has done you no wrong. I hate people who nitpick, highlight and exaggerate my flaws, especially in public. Also if somebody starts to list alternative possibilities to decisions I have made about my own life, they disrepect me and I will be deeply offended, and if they do so in front of others my wrath can reach truly inhuman proportions. I never forget such a slight, and will wait patiently, for years even, until the perfect moment to move in and crush them, along with anyone else who joined the blame and shame brigade.

    I utterly loathe witch hunts, and my experience of life has taught me, loud and clear, that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Nobody has the right to appoint themselves God and force their flawed standards of moral purity upon someone else. Yet some people in my life won't hesitate to shame, undermine and ostracize me if I make them feel even slightly uncomfortable.
    Last edited by Spermatozoa; 12-26-2017 at 02:01 AM.

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    generally when invoking notions of decorum you have to be speaking for more than yourself, thats sort of the sine qua non which makes it work. otherwise you're just that asshole in their own world telling everyone else they're the real assholes. which however true under the circumstances is usually considered a breach of decorum, not decorum itself

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    I think being personally offended is not the same as having a good sense of right and wrong. This is also separate from being emotionally expressive about it.

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    I can never sort it out. I have a strong sense of right and wrong, which comes out in what I think are serious breaches of morality, but it has to do with what I think is the most objective moral or ethical action, when dealing with things I'm passionate about. This has changed with knowledge about the world. What was right when I was 10 is different than when I was 20, and it is different now. Much of this involved moving away from Catholic morality and toward a secular and humanist one. It has little to do with group atmosphere, but making a scene isn't my thing, unless principles are violated. Then there are appropriate ways and inappropriate ways to proceed from there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebula View Post
    I think being personally offended is not the same as having a good sense of right and wrong. This is also separate from being emotionally expressive about it.

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    I dislike hyperemotionalism, like the angry person that lashes out or screams at people. Totally not necessary.

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    Well, if intention is to avoid looking ahead for the consequences [gammas... that play for themselves] then discarding in the moment decorum sounds like a liability.
    Last edited by Heretic 007; 12-27-2017 at 06:15 AM.
    Measuring you right now

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebula View Post
    I dislike hyperemotionalism, like the angry person that lashes out or screams at people. Totally not necessary.
    In what setting and for what reason? What was the purpose? Why did they? Who are they in relation to me? I'm I to share the anger? I'm I to observe? What effect did it have? I'm I okay with the effect? Where did it lead, and for who did it effect? Can it be solved? Yes? No? Was it deep seated indignation? Was it a flash in the pan?


    Is the expression overcoming the message? Where did the anger hit, in the chest, in the adrenalin, in the fear? What was the message behind the shouting? Do they have a history of shouting? Is this normal?

    What are they angry over? Can I look past the volume at the message? Can I look past the message at the volume?


    these are things, and more, I ask myself in regards to anger. I have a history of shouting. I've improved with age. Still, the volume creeps up and if I can't shout, there will be differing levels of connection and you will not enter the inner inner inner circle.

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