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Thread: Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies

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    Default Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies

    What do you think about the current cryptocurrency hype? Bitcoin used to be around $1K this summer now it's up to almost $18,000 - link. Some say it will be crashing soon, others say it will reach $100+K per coin over the next couple of years despite the temporary crashes. Ethereum has been slowly climbing up as well.

    A few related vids:






    Last edited by silke; 01-26-2018 at 02:39 PM. Reason: updated video link

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    I, personally, think bitcoin is a poor store of value and is presently in a bubble. But that's just my own opinion.

    My reason for thinking that it is a poor store of value is that bitcoin doesn't have an army that forces people to give it value relative to their lives.

    My reason for thinking that it is in a bubble is the recent run up in its "value". Incidentally, note that bitcoin's "value" is measured relative to the dollar (and not vice-versa), which DOES have an army backing up its value.

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    I see bitcoin a precursor of things to come, we'll all be moving to cashless technologies eventually, and the war will be fought in cyberspace - it's hard to imagine a battle between the super nations, given the destructive power of nuclear weapons, unless there's some big armistice first.

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    Concerning the current hype, I think what goes up must come down. If I owned a bunch of it at its current value, I would seriously consider liquidating my bitcoin into regular currency in the near future.

    However, overall, I think cryptocurrency is a good idea and people are going to be using it for the foreseeable future. Since it's decentralized, it becomes difficult to trace. Consequently, it gets a stable amount of approbation from people on the black market and people who regularly use services on the seedier parts of the internet. Its utility among criminals has even bled into the private sector, where many businesses buy it to prepare for ransomware attacks. I think it also has its uses for individuals who resist despotism in totalitarian states. For example, whistle-blowers can more easily conduct their activities when they buy or sell certain services using cryptocurrency.

    On the other hand, the utility of cryptocurrency doesn't guarantee a place for bitcoin in the world market. Competitors have long been at work developing blockchains with better cryptographic algorithms.

    As a side note, I really wish I had installed a bitcoin mining operation a couple of years ago. Or, better yet, when it first came out and was easier to mine.
    Last edited by Desert Financial; 12-16-2017 at 09:45 AM.

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    Sure you can play games with it and possibly win or loose even huge amounts. I have very little money there. Like stated there are better solutions than bitcoin and there will be easy method (and there already is) to convert those BTCs into something else but then it can be too late.

    Timing and choice matters.

    This point in time it is just a game or method for shady business.
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    Whenever I hear about this, I feel it's somewhat spurious. My reaction is, so what? Where's the big deal? It's neither a surprise nor something that seems impactful and proper enough to stand the test of time. Fear of darknets habit mentality will prevent that currencies are going entirely digital for now with the risks involved. The commotion really is too understated yet and the distrust too high. We'll talk in a year or two maybe. Literally: Am not buying it

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    I don't know much about bitcoin, but at the moment I think there is more money to be made and less risk involved investing in a different cryptocurrency that is destined to be the next bitcoin rather than bitcoin itself IMO.
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    Just the hype alone would make it worth purchasing short term... well worth the risk. Though once word has gotten to the general public that money is to be made you have reason to begin being skeptical. Put it in, wait until the hype looks like it may die down and pull out the moment you see the slightest indication.

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    If someone was really wanting to invest in this I'd suggest seriously studying it. The idea of a 'virtual' thing where we can't put our hands on it is strange. My point of research would be to learn what makes it fluctuate. Does it fluctuate and work like an actual currency, or is it just some subjective value like artwork is. My hunch is the first one - because if you look at it like an actual currency, people will invest in it if they see other countries financial situation as weak. So really you're just trading dollars for euros for pounds for yen for bitcoin. Bitcoin is not a currency that comes with unmanageable debt, so it's attractive to investors.

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    If you don't understand it and you don't have money invested elsewhere, you shouldn't even begin to consider it as an investment.

    I certainly would not invest anything in it other than a minor sum anytime soon.

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    TBH I can't see bitcoin or any other crypto money as an approved currency, it is more like company independed equities.

    The value of bitcoin will drop when a lot of people try to exchange bitcoin to Dollar or an other currency, it's the same case when people sell company shares.
    I see the potential problem of increased inflation of already established currencys when that "virtual gambling money" is converted to real money.

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    I'd sell IN MY OPINION.

    I am anyway.

    This is a bubble; it has become mainstream and now there's too many people thinking this is an easy money grab. All it will take is one little thing and mainstream confidence will be lost and everything will just plummet. It's just a question of how far it will go I guess.

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    in before history makes all of you idiots because bitcoin has replaced the dollar

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    A little story: every 18 years ca, there’s an increase in the stock markets. You can go back to 1999, 1981, 1963… and so on, and check it for yourself.
    The lady who realized this cyclic trend was an American trader in the 30’s, Louise Mc Whirter, she was even an astrologer, and she came to realize that this cyclic return corresponded to a particular astrological phenomenon: the North Node in these lucky times was in the sign of Leo.

    The North Node (NN) is a particular aspect that the Earth and the Moon together create by turning around the Sun; to make a complete turn it takes 18 years, so that every 18 years the NN is in the sign of Leo (the signs are arbitrary divisions of the sky that we see from Earth). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye8AxqndVYY this video shows how the Nodes look like.

    Obviously not all years are the same, and not every 18 years when the NN is in Leo the planets are all favorable to this position, nevertheless, even with bad aspects to the NN, there’s still an increase in the stock markets when the NN is in Leo.

    For who’s interested, we’re in one of the luckiest NN returns of the last 100 years, because there are no bad aspects to afflict it, and this hardly ever happened before.

    This may sound totally crazy to most people, I’m aware, but if you look at the present situation with a bit of discernment, you’ll see that it’s a really uncommon and unexpected economic boom that we’re facing. We were in the middle of a massive economic crisis up to last April, and when Trump entered the White House, after a sudden increase in the markets, the global economy followed a somewhat decreasing wave up to last April.

    We entered NN in Leo last April, and since then the markets started to rise again. This is true not just for the Btcs, but even for the “official markets”, although far more moderately.

    Something else you might want to know now is that the NN will stop its favorable course in Leo at the end of 2018, and then things should go back to normality…

    -

    The story is over, I hope you liked it.

    What I want to suggest, for who feels courageous enough to test this, is that this occasion won’t repeat for other 18 years, so the best tip I can give is: take advantage of this now!

    Btcs are still at their birth, and even we, used to spend most of our times online, can hardly foretell how much of an opportunity for the global economy this innovation will bring.

    I personally see all of this as a step towards big changes, because the strongest point in favor of the cryptocurrencies is that they’re out of every political/bank system. Just like internet. And we can only witness how much internet came to change our lives. This just looks like the automatic, practical, consequence of such a global change.

    The only thing I can say is that I’ve already invested a small amount in Btcs, and the results have been outstanding.

    (Another last thing, that my mum used to tell me all the times: no matter what, use your head!)


    MERRY XMAS all <3

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    you can buy slaves and human organs with bitcoin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    you can buy slaves and human organs with bitcoin.
    this is the kind of monetary freedom that makes eagles cry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalist Pig View Post
    in before history makes all of you idiots because bitcoin has replaced the dollar
    Considering that Bitcoin transaction fees are astronomical compared to other crypto-currencies I've used (namely Eth and Dash) and that the confirmation times with Bitcoin can take up to an hour, depending on your wallet's transaction history and how much of a fee you paid, I'd be surprised "Bitcoin" replaces any currency. For example, I just made a $1000 purchase that had a "normal" $11 processing miner fee in a wallet with 1 previous incoming transaction. Plus it's not very user friendly. Dash seems to fix all of those problems and I'd sooner bet on that over Bitcoin. Though Dash's fees do seem to be going up over time.

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    An negative side about the anonymity of crypto currencies. Criminals use them for money laundering.

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    Buying is the easy part.

    Now selling it, that part might be difficult... If you think about it, bitcoin is really just monopoly money, or money in a different form lol

    With that being said, I think you can *reasonably* expect it to climb to at least $50,000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keranos View Post
    Concerning the current hype, I think what goes up must come down.
    And so it happens. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...30-from-record

    For people who purchased 3 months ago, it's time to sell.

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    Bitcoin isn't like fiat money since it isn't inflatable. There is a fixed quantity of Bitcoin in circulation and waiting to be "mined". It is based on the concept of precious metals: there is a fixed quanitity in existence. That's what makes it more sound is that it cannot be devalued through inflation, plus Bitcoin is not subject to the monopoly of central banks or banks in general.

    Unfortunately some governments are wanting to regulate it, what caused Bitcoin to drop from 18,000 dollars to 11,000 was that the South Korean government announced it would regulate it, and the French government said it would hold a conference in spring to decide on whether it would do the same. We can expect more to follow, though from what I've read about Bitcoin I don't see how governments could truly regulate it since it is decentralized. I guess you can make it illegal to buy, sell and use without government authorization but just how you implement that is anyone's guess. Maybe they want to regulate who can advise others in buying and selling Bitcoin, like to prevent scams? If thats all it is its actually not necessarily a bad thing but it kinda kills the wild west spirit, nothing good lasts forever though.

    Maybe I'm too optimistic about it, but I think Bitcoin (or at least crypto in general) may very well be the future of money, yes crypto is still measured as relative to fiat since fiat is still used for most transactions but while fiat is useful for buying and food and clothes, its pretty unsound as a form of money due to inflation plus it is controlled by central banks. People have speculated about private companies like Amazon printing their own currencies as being a similar concept to crypto, but it isn't since that sounds like it would have the same problems as fiat does.

    But some people like to play it safe, they don't like to go off the beaten paths and so regular money appeals more. To each their own I guess. Right crypto isn't used for much except illicit business but I predict that will change as different cryptocurrencies with different purposes are created.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I, personally, think bitcoin is a poor store of value and is presently in a bubble. But that's just my own opinion.

    My reason for thinking that it is a poor store of value is that bitcoin doesn't have an army that forces people to give it value relative to their lives.

    My reason for thinking that it is in a bubble is the recent run up in its "value". Incidentally, note that bitcoin's "value" is measured relative to the dollar (and not vice-versa), which DOES have an army backing up its value.
    Well, the Euro is similar to the dollar in terms of value and has no army to back it up.

    I think the reason Bitcoin's value is measured with respect to the dollar and not vice-versa is simply because people use the dollar in everyday transactions and thus think in terms of dollars.

    Your perspective is interesting as I've never thought of money as being something that has value because of an army that can back it up...but ultimately I don't agree as it seems people give money value because it is accepted as a medium of exchange generally speaking, not because of military conquests lol. See my example about the Euro.

    Edit: I just realized your post was written a while ago...
    Last edited by Uncle Ave; 02-15-2018 at 09:37 PM.

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    Bitcoin went from a high of 19.3k 2 months ago to a low of 6.9k 10 days ago and it is starting to go up quickly. It is already at 9.5k now. Now might be the time to buy. You know the saying: buy low, sell high.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avebury View Post
    Your perspective is interesting as I've never thought of money as being something that has value because of an army that can back it up...but ultimately I don't agree as it seems people give money value because it is accepted as a medium of exchange generally speaking, not because of military conquests lol. See my example about the Euro.

    Edit: I just realized your post was written a while ago...
    @Avebury, here is the reasoning behind my statement that the value of money is ultimately controlled by armies.

    One of the roles that money plays is as a denominator of debt. In a world without money (your immediate family and close friends, for example), if someone gives you something or does something for you, you feel obligated to return the favor.

    But if your neighbor or a stranger or a person whom you will never see again does some work or service for you, you might give them money in return for their work or service. Why would they accept money (in any form; gold, paper, sea shells, etc) instead of requiring you to immediately give or do for them something of equal value? Because they look at that "money" as a contract which can be called in later. Perhaps, if the money is widely-enough distributed, they can present it to a third stranger and demand some service or some product.

    That money, or piece of paper, is a written promise saying that whoever holds it is entitled to demand a product or a certain amount of service from someone in exchange for it. It is an IOU for a given amount of tangible, real-world value.

    Why would a stranger be willing to take a green piece of paper in exchange for, say, a perfectly good car or a day's worth of hard labor? Because the paper has printed on it the words "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private", and is signed by the secretary of the Treasury of the United States.

    Now, I could print up some Adam dollars and try to buy lunch with them, but the lunch staff might not want to accept such things, no matter how attractive I made them, or what substrate I printed them on. Why not? I could print the same "legal tender" message as the US government does on my own Adam dollars.

    The reason they wouldn't want Adam dollars is that other people might not accept them as redeemable debts. As curiosities, perhaps. But not as reliable stores of callable-value. And that's because I don't have an army or a court system which forces people to accept payment of debts in Adam dollars, but the US government does.

    Ultimately, where ever you find money (account ledgers between strangers), you will find armies (to enforce the accounting).

    You mentioned that the Euro is not backed up by an army, but it is. That army is the US military, which pledged to defend Europe against any attack. The US maintains over 800 military bases around the world in order to ensure that every government with which we deal will accept dollars. It bombs countries and initiates coups when they don't play ball. Maintaining the value of the US dollar is no joke to the US government.

    Here are two cases in point.

    The CIA promised a tribe in Arabia that they would support them in their bid for rule, if the tribe would always price the oil that the country produced in dollars. Since the US prints dollars, that makes the price of oil surprisingly affordable to the US. That tribe was the Saudi tribe, and when they got control of the country, they re-named it Saudi Arabia, which is kind of like the Bushes renaming America "Bush America".

    This works out very well for the US, as you can imagine. Keeping the Saudi's happy is worth a lot to the US. All the other oil-producing nations also price their oil in dollars.

    However, in September 2000, Saddam Hussein stated that he would no longer accept dollars for oil, but would accept Euros instead. In March of 2003, about two and a half years later (it takes time to move equipment), the US started bombing Iraq.

    In 2010, Libya's Gaddafi was sitting on 144 tons of gold and initiated a movement in Africa to refuse both the Euro and the dollar for oil and to initiate a new currency, the gold dinar. The bombing started in March, 2011, and one of the first things the NATO-supported rebels opposing Gaddafi did was to establish a central bank.

    You know the standard cry of freedom fighters everywhere: "Freedom and central banking!"

    The US government really doesn't tolerate competing currencies. It may ignore them for a while, but eventually, the treasury agents show up and haul everyone off to jail. Or the bombing starts. Right now, bitcoin is flying under the radar. If it ever gets to the point where it is a credible currency, it will be outlawed, and that outlawing will be enforced by an army.

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    The US government really doesn't tolerate competing currencies. It may ignore them for a while, but eventually, the treasury agents show up and haul everyone off to jail. Or the bombing starts. Right now, bitcoin is flying under the radar. If it ever gets to the point where it is a credible currency, it will be outlawed, and that outlawing will be enforced by an army.


    Yeah the guys getting too excited bout it look kind of like naive/douche-y 20 something male hipsters that might have a rougher life when they are older. Or maybe I'm wrong, and they will always be happy and carefree but I highly doubt it. I don't care much for Te but my Ni reasoning says is it's gonna be a bad idea later down the road.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @Avebury, here is the reasoning behind my statement that the value of money is ultimately controlled by armies.

    One of the roles that money plays is as a denominator of debt. In a world without money (your immediate family and close friends, for example), if someone gives you something or does something for you, you feel obligated to return the favor.

    But if your neighbor or a stranger or a person whom you will never see again does some work or service for you, you might give them money in return for their work or service. Why would they accept money (in any form; gold, paper, sea shells, etc) instead of requiring you to immediately give or do for them something of equal value? Because they look at that "money" as a contract which can be called in later. Perhaps, if the money is widely-enough distributed, they can present it to a third stranger and demand some service or some product.

    That money, or piece of paper, is a written promise saying that whoever holds it is entitled to demand a product or a certain amount of service from someone in exchange for it. It is an IOU for a given amount of tangible, real-world value.

    Why would a stranger be willing to take a green piece of paper in exchange for, say, a perfectly good car or a day's worth of hard labor? Because the paper has printed on it the words "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private", and is signed by the secretary of the Treasury of the United States.

    Now, I could print up some Adam dollars and try to buy lunch with them, but the lunch staff might not want to accept such things, no matter how attractive I made them, or what substrate I printed them on. Why not? I could print the same "legal tender" message as the US government does on my own Adam dollars.

    The reason they wouldn't want Adam dollars is that other people might not accept them as redeemable debts. As curiosities, perhaps. But not as reliable stores of callable-value. And that's because I don't have an army or a court system which forces people to accept payment of debts in Adam dollars, but the US government does.

    Ultimately, where ever you find money (account ledgers between strangers), you will find armies (to enforce the accounting).

    You mentioned that the Euro is not backed up by an army, but it is. That army is the US military, which pledged to defend Europe against any attack. The US maintains over 800 military bases around the world in order to ensure that every government with which we deal will accept dollars. It bombs countries and initiates coups when they don't play ball. Maintaining the value of the US dollar is no joke to the US government.

    Here are two cases in point.

    The CIA promised a tribe in Arabia that they would support them in their bid for rule, if the tribe would always price the oil that the country produced in dollars. Since the US prints dollars, that makes the price of oil surprisingly affordable to the US. That tribe was the Saudi tribe, and when they got control of the country, they re-named it Saudi Arabia, which is kind of like the Bushes renaming America "Bush America".

    This works out very well for the US, as you can imagine. Keeping the Saudi's happy is worth a lot to the US. All the other oil-producing nations also price their oil in dollars.

    However, in September 2000, Saddam Hussein stated that he would no longer accept dollars for oil, but would accept Euros instead. In March of 2003, about two and a half years later (it takes time to move equipment), the US started bombing Iraq.

    In 2010, Libya's Gaddafi was sitting on 144 tons of gold and initiated a movement in Africa to refuse both the Euro and the dollar for oil and to initiate a new currency, the gold dinar. The bombing started in March, 2011, and one of the first things the NATO-supported rebels opposing Gaddafi did was to establish a central bank.

    You know the standard cry of freedom fighters everywhere: "Freedom and central banking!"

    The US government really doesn't tolerate competing currencies. It may ignore them for a while, but eventually, the treasury agents show up and haul everyone off to jail. Or the bombing starts. Right now, bitcoin is flying under the radar. If it ever gets to the point where it is a credible currency, it will be outlawed, and that outlawing will be enforced by an army.
    You are right, the US is a mercantile economy and not a genuine free-market one, this has been the case since WW2 and probably even since WW1.

    China today is the virtually the same, mercantile money backed with an army.

    Machiavelli speculated about the need to have an army to maintain power, not necessarily with respect to currencies but basically he said that powers that have no army to back it up always fail, but powers that have an army have a serious chance. Like I said he wasn't saying this with respect to money specifically but the point kinda sticks. But there is a difference between using armies to defend oneself from outside invasion and using armies as a means to invade others.

    Then again, I don't think it has to be this way, there was a time when the US followed the Monroe doctrine and didn't intervene in Europe and other places, but the whole problem with America being non-interventionist nowadays is you got China who has its own ambitions...

    Chinese internationalism is a bit different from American internationalism, in terms of methodology, US is more militaristic, I don't doubt the ambitions are the same however: to control the world through currency manipulation. This is precisely where the excitement about Bitcoin and crypto comes from: it is seen as an alternative to government controlled currency, how long it will remain free is another question. Bitcoin was invented by people (the identity of the inventor is unkown but we know what circles it originated in) who hung out in the "cypherpunk" communties in the 90s who basically were a mix of libertarians and cybergeeks getting together to stop the monopoly of central banking and government through "geeky" computer related stuff.

    I wonder what will happen with this situation, though. It seems Bitcoin was inveted with noble intentions but I do wonder how and if governments can seize control of it. It would be too bad if this happens, IMO.

    I think you are right that the value of money is controlled by armies, but not necesserily through imperialism, as the situation today hasn't always been the same. Then again, if there is a void to fill, in terms of power someone will fill it. The world isn't even in terms of the power countries have and the big dogs will always be imperialistic whenever and wherever they can. An army that exists for defense only will go through periods of not knowing war, and not knowing war means not excercising its power, which means growing weak. And a country with a weak military is potential prey to a country with a strong one. Such is the world, for better or worse.
    Last edited by Uncle Ave; 02-16-2018 at 10:27 AM.

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    Bitcoin is valuable as a speculative currency for the near future; however its deflationary aspect will eventually overtake it as productive capacity spurred by this speculation comes to rule an ever-decreasing rate of mining. Its goal of becoming the currency of the future will never happen - we've tried this before, and it led to the Great Depression. The current system of money benefits from the fact that it claims to be controllable from the perspective of inflation via restrictions of supply; bitcoin has no capable restrictions save severe devaluation. It's a step down from the modern perspective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    Bitcoin is valuable as a speculative currency for the near future; however its deflationary aspect will eventually overtake it as productive capacity spurred by this speculation comes to rule an ever-decreasing rate of mining. Its goal of becoming the currency of the future will never happen - we've tried this before, and it led to the Great Depression. The current system of money benefits from the fact that it claims to be controllable from the perspective of inflation via restrictions of supply; bitcoin has no capable restrictions save severe devaluation. It's a step down from the modern perspective.
    Bitcoin is actually a fiat currency. Like all currencies, it has humans behind it making decisions. Some people want restrictions on the money supply to preserve the value of their assets, while others want more money to be created to facilitate commerce and reduce the otherwise exponential growth of debt. Even though bitcoin is a distributed ledger system, its code runs on computers and is subject to code “upgrades”. As mining begins to reach its limits, some humans are going to press for a greater supply. Which therefore led in August to a split in the distributed ledger code. A small group of developers created a copy called “bitcoin cash”, and suddenly, everyone who owned one bitcoin also owned one unit of bitcoin cash. Out of a governance dispute, new money.

    As it has been with every form of money that is used for human commerce.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Bitcoin is actually a fiat currency. Like all currencies, it has humans behind it making decisions. Some people want restrictions on the money supply to preserve the value of their assets, while others want more money to be created to facilitate commerce and reduce the otherwise exponential growth of debt. Even though bitcoin is a distributed ledger system, its code runs on computers and is subject to code “upgrades”. As mining begins to reach its limits, some humans are going to press for a greater supply. Which therefore led in August to a split in the distributed ledger code. A small group of developers created a copy called “bitcoin cash”, and suddenly, everyone who owned one bitcoin also owned one unit of bitcoin cash. Out of a governance dispute, new money.

    As it has been with every form of money that is used for human commerce.
    Yeah, that was mostly meant as a static assessment. I don't claim to be able to predict how governments and other new entities will be able to interact with it. I've heard plenty of "well, the government will get involved far before it gets serious" and other claims like that. I don't know how to evaluate those claims, especially since they all bring a new aspect to what's going on, so the best I can do is give an analysis as it stands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    Yeah, that was mostly meant as a static assessment. I don't claim to be able to predict how governments and other new entities will be able to interact with it. I've heard plenty of "well, the government will get involved far before it gets serious" and other claims like that. I don't know how to evaluate those claims, especially since they all bring a new aspect to what's going on, so the best I can do is give an analysis as it stands.

    You can can look at the historical record. In 1773 the individual banks in England created a clearinghouse in London to reconcile their individual ledgers. The banks took in gold, but still managed to lend out more money than they had on hand, thus creating new money. The banks lent money to the government to finance its foreign wars, and were eventually regulated by that government, because it is good to control your lenders, especially if you have an army and control of the courts.
    Similar things have happened elsewhere, including the US, because money exists to serve the needs of the powerful, not vice-versa. It is a balancing act, though, between factions which want stable asset values and those which want credit and inflation. In both cases, though, the powerful change the rules to suit their needs. Bitcoin is not going to change that.

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    @Adam Strange, what's your position on crypto-currencies? Do you think they'll continue to grow?

    I get that counties have armies which back their money, but war in cyber space is only going to grow. Do you see counties taking the fight to cyber space to strategically support crypto currencies? Or will new players emerge?

    Apart from attacking some small non-nuclear country with a physical army, can such physical conflicts really be risked anymore with increased nuclear proliferation?

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    @Adam Strange

    Not sure Bitcoin fits the definition of a fiat currency.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money

    Fiat money has been defined variously as:
    • Any money declared by a government to be legal tender.[4]
    • State-issued money which is neither convertible by law to any other thing, nor fixed in value in terms of any objective standard.[5]
    • Intrinsically valueless money used as money because of government decree.[2]
    • An intrinsically useless object that serves as a medium of exchange[6] (also known as fiduciary money.[7])
    The first three definitions certainly don't qualify because they imply the state or government issues the money. Only the fourth definition could possibly qualify and it doesn't because it is defined as an "object" and Bitcoin is virtual. Not trying to split hairs or anything, and I see where the definiton of Bitcoin as a fiat currency comes from: its certainly not a commodity. But it's not fiat either, it's something new altogether, I think.

    Also consider this, from the same Wikipedia article:

    The term fiat derives from the Latin fiat ("let it be done")[8] used in the sense of an order, decree[2] or resolution[9].
    Clearly this doesn't sound like the anti-governance spirit that defines Bitcoin and other crypto. I see what you're saying, though: some kind of governance still happens, but my point was that this wasn't intended in the design contrary to the design of fiat currency.

    But maybe I am too optimistic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strangeling View Post
    Considering that Bitcoin transaction fees are astronomical compared to other crypto-currencies I've used (namely Eth and Dash) and that the confirmation times with Bitcoin can take up to an hour, depending on your wallet's transaction history and how much of a fee you paid, I'd be surprised "Bitcoin" replaces any currency. For example, I just made a $1000 purchase that had a "normal" $11 processing miner fee in a wallet with 1 previous incoming transaction. Plus it's not very user friendly. Dash seems to fix all of those problems and I'd sooner bet on that over Bitcoin. Though Dash's fees do seem to be going up over time.
    i think these are problems that can eventually be solved with greater adoption and advances in technology

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    Same problem as any other "money": A crap that has no use or intrinsic value.

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    Bitcoin is Alpha invention turned into Beta ponzi scheme.
    It's never going to be mainstream for many systemic problems.

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    Wasn't expecting this.

    Venezuela, of all governments, launches it's own cryptocurrency.

    https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/20/17031720/venezuela-cryptocurrency-petro-oil-reserves-diamonds-inflation


    Venezuela’s opposition-run parliament has expressed its disapproval of the petro and has warned investors that after Maduro leaves office, the currency would become null and void. (Maduro is up for re-election this April.) Legislator Jorge Millán tweeted in January, “They have announced issuance of a supposed cryptocurrency that is illegal and unconstitutional. A new deception of the regime.”
    Scholars and economists have also pointed out the dubious nature of the petro. The US Treasury has also warned investors to approach petro with caution, given US sanctions.
    If you care about freedom though, you shouldn't buy into this one.

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    I've knew this hype over Bitcoin (or cryptocurrencies in general) was going to happen eventually over a decade ago. And, no, it's not because I have a magic crystal ball; it's because there has been signs of it everywhere, noticeable to anyone who was paying attention.

    Have you ever wondered why point-to-point (such as SSL) encryption became nearly ubiquitous? It's because the Internet is literally a mess. In theory, information travels from one point to another freely, but in practice just about anyone can intercept it and do anything they want to it. Point-to-point encryption allows consensus between any two points in the network. Cryptocurrencies are just one step ahead: now consensus over the majority of the points in the network. Today, we use this to store banking information, but just about anything can be stored on it.

    Actually, distributed ledgers are just an experiment exploring the principles of a new kind of network that will eventually replace Internet.

    Practical advice: cryptocurrencies are a lottery right now, never mind them unless you're willing to risk money. But they are here to stay and, eventually, the hype will stop and their value will stabilize and work like real money. There is nothing special about them, other than being more practical (current money is already digital).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avebury View Post
    Well, the Euro is similar to the dollar in terms of value and has no army to back it up.
    The euro is backed up by something even better than an army: Germans!
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    The euro is backed up by something even better than an army: Germans!
    Germans, and 36 US military bases.

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