Se in Real Life

[isptn]

I've read descriptions of Se, but I still don't feel like I really have much of a concept of what it is, I think I probably haven't observed differences in strength of Se enough in others. Could anyone give some real life examples of what it's like to have strong or weak Se? Is it related to the ability to keep pushing forward in spite of pain or discomfort? (And are some people actually unable to do so, or are they just choosing not to?)

Also, how might one distinguish Se from having strong desire or motivation? How might one distinguish weak Se from having no desire or motivation? What would happen if someone with strong Se experienced avolition (poverty of will; an inability to initiate and persist in goal-directed activities) as a symptom of a mental health condition?

What does it mean to know how much force is required, or to not know that? What are some examples?

[Tigerfadder]

Its the ability to use force pretty much. If high dimension you are probably more better in the use and to see how force influence things in the world. Or thats the theory. One good example is skiing.

[Spermatozoa]

I am glad this topic has been brought up.

Se use is difficult to assess online. Any poster who seems particularly direct, blunt and aggressive is often typed as a Se-lead, when they're often just an Enneagram 8 and/or trolling.

From what I understand, Se refers to you desire to change, direct and influence your environment. Se-leads swiftly act upon something that piques their interest, and will learn success or failure as a result of having created that experience. They take risks and tend to learn by trial and error, trying out different techniques until something works ("I fucked up the first nine times but girl #10 just gave me her number"). This behaviour can annoy Ni and Si types, as they tend to plan ahead and will avoid the awkward mistakes that Se (and Ne) often makes. But Se learns through physical, hands-on experience, not through theory or future speculation. Se-leads expect their feelings (SEE) or system (SLE) to be realized right now which makes them appear bold, but also a little naive and prone to impatience.

[Tallmo]

It's just consciousness of the concrete. Look for people who seem concrete, grounded. There is often a flavor of "bluntness" or "roughness", even if it is not always openly shown.

[Hays]

SLE daughter is highly competitive whether that be in the work place or playing a board game.

She likes everything on her terms so the rest of the family pretty much know that you basically just go along with her choices the majority of the time.
It’s difficult to get her to take in another option or perspective if she already has things set in her mind.

She recently received a workplace complement from another company to her bosses which was that she was ‘F...in good!’ so she rang me straight away to tell me how ‘F...in good!’ at her job others were saying she was :-)
For a female she is highly ambitious.

I don’t recommend working out with an SLE type as they drive you so hard that others think you are about to have a heart attack!

[consentingadult]

Se, in its most generic description, is about psychological Entitlement:

10. ENTITLEMENT / GRANDIOSITY (ET)

The belief that one is superior to other people; entitled to special rights and privileges; or not bound by the rules of reciprocity that guide normal social interaction. Often involves insistence that one should be able to do or have whatever one wants, regardless of what is realistic, what others consider reasonable, or the cost to others; OR an exaggerated focus on superiority (e.g., being among the most successful, famous, wealthy) -- in order to achieve power or control (not primarily for attention or approval). Sometimes includes excessive competitiveness toward, or domination of, others: asserting one's power, forcing one's point of view, or controlling the behavior of others in line with one's own desires---without empathy or concern for others' needs or feelings.

source: http://schematherapy.com/id73.htm

If you start investigating what this 'Entitlement' involves, what it does, how it feels to the ones using it you can start to understand what Se actually is all about.

[Bertrand]

I think Se implicates entitlement only inasmuch as it knows what it can get away with, or at least it has a higher res picture of the force dynamic. Fi implicates what they actually feel entitled to. The issue is in Se doms you have either 1d or 3d Fi which is flexible by its nature, which leads to the most stand out examples of Se involving such concomitant ethical "exceptionalism." Realistically its only a posteriori association and not an a priori connection between Se and entitlement. For example ESI tends to enforce the rules of reciprocity that guide normal social interaction quite ably and it is nearly their definitive trait to do exactly that, so the two are not necessarily opposed

your point is well taken though that Se dominants do express themselves in an entitled manner quite often though, and it is difficult enough to be around sufficient to apply to them the pejorative label of "entitlement/grandiosity"--Trump is a good example, not realizing that leadership is "servitude" not privilege, etc

[Exodus]

Se, in its most generic description, is about psychological Entitlement:



source: http://schematherapy.com/id73.htm

If you start investigating what this 'Entitlement' involves, what it does, how it feels to the ones using it you can start to understand what Se actually is all about.

That is Se but it's on the negative side of it. I don't see how it's any more generic than force or desire etc. - at best it's a generic mental/behavioral manifestation. If Se leading types are mature they will generally be able to limit this behavior. Acting like this all the time essentially means acting like a child.

[idontgiveaf]

Se users usually stands out in the crowd. So basically they're easier to notice in real life.

[idontgiveaf]

It's basically about their behaviors. It's too extraverted on how they express their though via their actions.

Like for some people, it's just in their head. Or they will just say it. With Se doms, they'll act upon their thoughts

Tries out stuffs.

[idontgiveaf]

Any poster who seems particularly direct, blunt and aggressive is often typed as a Se-lead, when they're often just an Enneagram 8 and/or trolling.

Lol. True. That what actually annoys me lol. I'm not really an Se dom, but an Ne dom. And I have the stack of enneagram 8 but obviously i don't usually use that here because why would i? I usually use enneagram 7 here. And then trolling is for meanies. I'm not a meanie.

From what I understand, Se refers to you desire to change, direct and influence your environment. Se-leads swiftly act upon something that piques their interest, and will learn success or failure as a result of having created that experience.

- They invented the word,

YOLO

and

CARPE DIEM

[Muddy]

Basically everything @sorrows said lol. Makes sense a 4D Se type would provide the best description.

I think understanding Se becomes a lot easier once you how it intertwines with Ni. Ni tracks how things are unfolding over time and all Se/Ni types are hyper attentive towards this. This means that Se/Ni types are always aware of how the lives of both their own and those of other people are progressing, which makes it especially painful for Se types to be in a mediocre life situation since they are constantly reflecting on it via Ni.

The Se solution to alleviate this pain is to intentionally expose themselves to hardship/conflict/challenges etc. so that they build a tolerance towards it, thus allowing them to better take on necessary but unpleasant towards steps improving their lives. Se egos love overcoming challenges because it gives their Ni something positive to reflect on.

The only real difference between Ni doms and Se doms here is that Ni egos center themselves around understanding and manipulating these mental reflections within themselves to find contentment, while Se doms are unable to do this and instead have to make actual, real accomplishments happen that they can reflect upon. Se/Ni creatives are pretty much the same only their Se/Ni are more flexible and can swap to using the other element, with less total focus on either.

[Muddy]

Some scenes of an Se lead trying to teach Chappie Se, a movie I highly recommend watching:

[squark]

Se users to me have this exertion and physical presence- it is about achieving goals, and meeting physical and mental challenges.
If they don't have rigorous challenges they will often become depressed. They view life as challenge, and are constantly on the look-out for opportunities. They want power, but they want to earn it. It is a game for them to overcome the obstacles of life, and they want a "hardened" partner who can weather the storm WITH them, not for them. They don't want to "care" for someone in the guardian sense-they want to marry an equal of the same strength and intelligence.

And some Se types more than some other types view marriage as the ultimate partnership, where you work together to secure your place in the world. This reminds me of LIE-SEI.

They seem to be able to go without the softer comforts, and they rarely complain about much (asise from some SLEs I know).
There is just a grittiness that Se leads and creatives have that they can endure and tolerate high levels of discomfort for their goals or for the external moment or energy.

Se creatives are quick to assert themselves or stand up to others in a biting way. Yes, they can be blunt, and assertive but will not be afraid to speak their mind if necessary either on Fi or Ti issues.

They need physical challenges, and outlets for their stress.

=) Even though you're not talking about me personally, your post makes me feel understood lol, especially the bold.

[isptn]

What about psychological force and resistance? People instinctively resist influence, it's how humans are wired because it's important to be able to preserve the self against external forces. This means that in order to influence people, or even simply avoid offending, one has to know much psychological force one is exerting, how much the individual would be impacted, given their characteristics and values, and how much that individual is willing to be influenced in a given situation. Is this related to Se?

[chrys]

Maybe if INxPs are trying to be wise by contemplation and wondering and observing...


ESxPs are trying to be wise by doing, the more you do the more experience you wield, and experience grants you power and wisdom in life. It promotes change.

[at sirac son of sirac]

What about psychological force and resistance? People instinctively resist influence, it's how humans are wired because it's important to be able to preserve the self against external forces. This means that in order to influence people, or even simply avoid offending, one has to know much psychological force one is exerting, how much the individual would be impacted, given their characteristics and values, and how much that individual is willing to be influenced in a given situation. Is this related to Se?

Yes.

N types particularly aren't as aware when they're being influenced through force/coercion, much like how T types don't always realise they're being emotionally influenced.

I don't think you should think of force just as in terms of pushing someone about physically, but yeah that can be Se too - like you rightly mention - psychological force.

[chrys]

I think I'd rather be rebellious and demonstrative with my actions to make people think about their actions and way of life than do most things, in fact, affecting people is probably one of the only things I enjoy doing. I don't have the aggression and force for it really, or the energy, but one of the best feelings in the world is to make people think about the effect of what they are doing. But it doesn't happen often as I'd like, being possibly an Ne/Si valuer. I've lost alot of what made me confident years ago, and one of those things is my ability to be slippery as a fish (unable to be affected) but also able to demonstrate strongly for the sake of whatever I think needs saying. But I've mostly been laying low the past few years and haven't been able to muster much of my anger for a good cause anymore.



Kekekek sorry I love spamming on threads.

[at sirac son of sirac]

@isptn,

I read a post by you earlier when you said you'd prefer to gather your information by asking specific questions rather than putting out a typing thread. I don't know what this means about your type per se but I think it's smart. It suggests a logical thinker who's confident to put the information together themselves and an awareness of tactical positions. I'm guessing you realise typing threads can become tangential and vague and you'd rather keep your information stream focused. S and T type anyway.

[at sirac son of sirac]

I think I'd rather be rebellious and demonstrative with my actions to make people think about their actions and way of life than do most things, in fact, affecting people is probably one of the only things I enjoy doing. I don't have the aggression and force for it really, or the energy, but one of the best feelings in the world is to make people think about the effect of what they are doing. But it doesn't happen often as I'd like, being possibly an Ne/Si valuer. I've lost alot of what made me confident years ago, and one of those things is my ability to be slippery as a fish (unable to be affected) but also able to demonstrate strongly for the sake of whatever I think needs saying. But I've mostly been laying low the past few years and haven't been able to muster much of my anger for a good cause anymore.



Kekekek sorry I love spamming on threads.

Are you OK?

You're not bothering me chick but I just thought I'd check in with you xxxx

[chrys]

Are you OK?

You're not bothering me chick but I just thought I'd check in with you xxxx

yes I'm ok. I'm just learning about myself.


Thank ya Scarp

[at sirac son of sirac]

yes I'm ok. I'm just learning about myself.


Thank ya Scarp

Hugs ya Super S , I think you're awesome

Edit: Super S meaning Seductress Steve, not Super Scarp

[at sirac son of sirac]

Hey @Seductress Steve, expressing emotion can make me feel uncomfortable, but I've learned that it's nice to let people know we care. Does stuff like that make everyone feel uncomfortable do you think? I wondered if the more genuine a feeling is, the more we worry about it being rejected, or do some people worry because it's not sincere, or do some people see the expression only as the means unto itself?

[isptn]

Would tactfulness and avoiding offending others through awareness of psychological impact and resistance imply strong Ethics along with Se? Or could LSI with role Fi also do so? How capable is LSI of tact and sensitivity to others' feelings and values?

[at sirac son of sirac]

Would tactfulness and avoiding offending others through awareness of psychological impact and resistance imply strong Ethics along with Se? Or could LSI with role Fi also do so? How capable is LSI of tact and sensitivity to others' feelings and values?

I don't think LSI is very good at it, the theory is the role function - 3rd function - Fi for those guys doesn't work too great or for too long. I find with LSIs this manifests in a short lived Fi, but then even during the conversation they can blow it by being incredibly tactless and pushy (to me). So SLIs it's different because their Te can ruin a calm atmosphere if they dish it out without restraint , it's like they're taking away the thing they want and relying on someone good at Fi to be 'understanding.' The LSI has no real desire to restore or maintain a peaceful calm emotional environment. Just my take.

[isptn]

I don't think LSI is very good at it, the theory is the role function - 3rd function - Fi for those guys doesn't work too great or for too long. I find with LSIs this manifests in a short lived Fi, but then even during the conversation they can blow it by being incredibly tactless and pushy (to me). So SLIs it's different because their Te can ruin a calm atmosphere if they dish it out without restraint , it's like they're taking away the thing they want and relying on someone good at Fi to be 'understanding.' The LSI has no real desire to restore or maintain a peaceful calm emotional environment. Just my take.

I don't feel like I'm ever insensitive to others' feelings. Internally I'm always aware of how others could be affected and tend to be sympathetic. But at the same time, I'm not sure if I'm very good at actually expressing sensitivity, such as expressing sentiment or saying things to cheer people up. I feel like I know when it's needed, but it's really draining for me, so often I end up colder and quieter than I'd like to be. I'm not sure whether that puts me at Fi base or Fi role.

[chrys]

Hey @Seductress Steve, expressing emotion can make me feel uncomfortable, but I've learned that it's nice to let people know we care. Does stuff like that make everyone feel uncomfortable do you think? I wondered if the more genuine a feeling is, the more we worry about it being rejected, or do some people worry because it's not sincere, or do some people see the expression only as the means unto itself?

Hmm.. I guess for me It's not that I'm uncomfortable expressing emotions, it's just that I need the right people to vent and take it all out on I actually can't express myself in a personal way around most people, I mostly just like to seem chill and reasonable around everyone including friends. I almost do it for my own sense of power. Yeah I think most of my isolation comes from needing to feel powerful and in control. I really hate not being in control of myself, so expressing any dissenting emotions is not easy. At least irl. It's easier online because there's no physical discomfort to expressing myself.

I do think my most genuine feelings might be rejected alot of the time yes. I always feel criticized unless stated otherwise which is why I take compliments and supportive comments very well.

I guess everyone will have their own preference of expression depending on how they were raised... maybe Enneagram had alot to say about how we view emotionality. The shame and anger triad in particular.

I think as an enneagram 9 I unconsciously express whatever will help me best connect with a person, where I have multiple personalities based on my expectations of others' desires. I feel like I'm dissociated from my true self at times lol

[squark]

What about psychological force and resistance? People instinctively resist influence, it's how humans are wired because it's important to be able to preserve the self against external forces. This means that in order to influence people, or even simply avoid offending, one has to know much psychological force one is exerting, how much the individual would be impacted, given their characteristics and values, and how much that individual is willing to be influenced in a given situation. Is this related to Se?

Emotional pressure, ability not to offend, knowing the person's characteristics and values - all of those have Fe and Fi elements to them. People are often more influenced and impacted emotionally rather than pushed/ordered, and you're bringing in the emotional element here. All of the bold is more closely tied to Fe, Fi, and Ne than Se. In other words, ENFx is much better at knowing how to speak to people in such a way that they will WANT to do something, and using emotional influence in order to get things done than the other types. Think MLK Jr . . . or ****** for examples of mass influence that way, or your garden-variety psychologist for individual influence.

What I've noticed with some Se leads (and some LSE) is that their tactic is to just keep persisting, keep asking, keep pushing until the other person finally gets tired and gives in. It's not really about emotional influence with them. And SLEs aren't great at knowing how someone has been emotionally impacted by their actions.

SEEs though have more emotional influence than SLEs and will use Fe and Fi to get what they want. In other words, SEEs are more inclined to use emotion to convince, sway, or inspire in my experience. And that's because it's tied to the ethical IEs. (SLEs are more likely to try to convince through logic on the other hand)

[FDG]

I don’t recommend working out with an SLE type as they drive you so hard that others think you are about to have a heart attack!

Try a ESI-Se male...

[Sol]

Could anyone give some real life examples of what it's like to have strong or weak Se?

check my signature

[Exodus]

Would tactfulness and avoiding offending others through awareness of psychological impact and resistance imply strong Ethics along with Se? Or could LSI with role Fi also do so? How capable is LSI of tact and sensitivity to others' feelings and values?

I don't feel like I'm ever insensitive to others' feelings. Internally I'm always aware of how others could be affected and tend to be sympathetic. But at the same time, I'm not sure if I'm very good at actually expressing sensitivity, such as expressing sentiment or saying things to cheer people up. I feel like I know when it's needed, but it's really draining for me, so often I end up colder and quieter than I'd like to be. I'm not sure whether that puts me at Fi base or Fi role.

This does seem to point away from LSI due to creative (valued and strong) Se. But it could be very well be consistent with LII - Si mobilizing and Fi role.

[Hays]

Try a ESI-Se male...

Are they often vegetarians too, my old ESI school friend was...*sigh*...I must have the worst activity partners out there :-)

I think cycling clubs may hold a fair number of ESI males and what a work out that is, though the Olympic cyclist that I vaguely new was likely ESE with his physical regimen allowing no time out really.

[Bertrand]

tactfulness is not just avoiding anything that might be offensive but being able to say things other people can't without offending others, that's what would elevate it from norms to strong