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Thread: Sx/Sp and Sp/Sx- Politics, social issues etc

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    Default Sx/Sp and Sp/Sx- Politics, social issues etc

    Just getting curious here- Social last types, what are your political or social justice opinions, and how involved are you in politics, if at all?

    Are you completely apolitical and disinterested, or are you more involved than the stereotypes would have us believe?

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    I used to be very political when I was younger, but then somewhere down the line, I became very apolitical. If I had to say what broke the camel's back for me it was the 2000 election.

    The whole controversy with the electronic machines and it coming down to a recount and a supreme court decision left a bad taste in my mouth. Then the 2004 election between two skull and bones members (Bush and Kerry) was kind of the nail in the coffin for me.

    Since then, I've viewed political elections as mere sideshows that will make little difference in how countries and the world is run. The debaucle of the 2016 election was a good example of how much of a sideshow elections really are in the end.

    People complain about Trump all the time, but in the end of the day he is just a symptom of a corrupt political system, not the cause. Replacing him with someone else in a future election is not going to solve the core problems of society, it will only result in changes to minor issues.

    Lobbying has pervaded and corrupted politics to the point where corporations and wealthy individuals with their deep pockets will have more say in politics and government than the public will ever have.
    “We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand.” Randy Pausch

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    Quote Originally Posted by JC1 View Post
    Just getting curious here- Social last types, what are your political or social justice opinions, and how involved are you in politics, if at all?

    Are you completely apolitical and disinterested, or are you more involved than the stereotypes would have us believe?
    Once in a while I might read something or respond to something, but I've other things I'd rather be reading about, talking about, or doing.

    While "Progressive" is the closest label (that I know of) that might describe my stances, I don't actually DO anything, belong to any Progressive groups, keep up on what's going on, etc. I'm 45yo and the 2016 election was the only time I got involved enough to go vote and maybe talk about Bernie Sanders a few times. On facebook I share/like some memes, and sometimes I share/like more than I wish I had, lol. Sometimes I share some just to piss off my libertarian e837 SLE older brother.

    My husband keeps up on what's going on (though not obsessively), and he'll make comments about 'recent events' and may eventually tell me a summary of what he's referring to. And I used to watch some of those satire shows that would touch on politics.

    My recent argument in another thread was political in topic, but 75% of the time I ignore the political topics on this forum. The only reason I went on that thread in the first place was because it was in 'socionics general' and was titled to be about Delta/Beta. (It did, however, help me figure out my stance on affirmative action policies. I'm now no longer ambivalent about them, but am glad they were implemented 50 years ago.) And I suppose this thread.

    When it comes to social issues, I've got a few pet peeves. Primarily about separation of Church and State, "a vote for x is a vote for y" bullshit, getting money out of politics, and things related to disabilities, social security, and medical. Oh, and what got me into politics in 2016 was my anger about how my 21yo daughter works a full time job at minimum wage, but still requires a co-signer to get one of the cheapest 1 bedroom apartments in town. I didn't have a problem getting cheapass apartments when I was her age, the price disparity has gotten out of proportion! That and the church/state thing are my biggest peeves.

    That about covers it.
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    My brother (SX/SP) pretty much ignores world news and anything that goes beyond his closest interactions, the only activism he'd ever join would be abolishing schools because they prevent him from finding comfort at home + playing with his 2-3 friends, and very intense sessions of gaming. It ties into him being a sensing type a lot. His enneatype is 8

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    Nope, not interested in politics. Don't vote. Don't watch the news. It's just not important to me.

    C-EII-INFj 4w3 Sx/sp 479

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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    When it comes to social issues, I've got a few pet peeves. Primarily about separation of Church and State, "a vote for x is a vote for y" bullshit, getting money out of politics, and things related to disabilities, social security, and medical. [...] That and the church/state thing are my biggest peeves.
    Why is the separation of Church and State a problem? I'm not from the U.S. but I've heard they are still pretty religious out there. Wouldn't that be the progressive move, according to your "progressive" politics to have them separated?
    Except for impaired empathy, an ordinary guy who's looking for down-to-earth, loving, loyal friends and a geeky, warm, voluptuous girlfriend!

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    Quote Originally Posted by eko View Post
    I agree with and find it interesting to watch people speak about these things,eg Jordan Peterson but I wouldn't actively partake in some cause or anything.
    I've seen his name popping up on YT recommendations a lot, as well as his face in the thumbnail but seriously, people, WHO THE FUCK IS JORDAN PETERSON????!! And why is everyone talking about him, paying him all that undue attention. Seriously, I think I had once clicked on a video with him but I was like eeww, what a skeezy, slimy guy, ewww, why is he always in a shirt looking like this burnt out alcoholic pretending to be professional... urghhh. Is he going to be the next president? I bet that's how Trump became the president, everybody hated him but they kept watching, and he gave a reason for people to point fingers on anything other than themselves and I guess they elected him to keep on having the pretext to deflect and gossip. Now this is what I hate about the socials, they always justify how bad bad can be so that it to flip over to be good. So bad that it's good = ironic camp. They get off on watching shit, then tweeting about.

    Another reason I don't like the feminist movement is because it scares men to approach women, and nowadays it's like people can't even make a joke or approach a woman without getting the misogynist stamp- it's ridiculous. Young men are already intimidated enough by women without this.
    That's true. I've already had my share on Personality Cafe. Now I'm getting up to date about this whole new PC-ness through Jon Haidt - interestingly, he also got pissed off by it. This is one of the bane of typology forums: a lot of millenials, a lot of misdirected or directionless, uneducated, immature people feeling like all of a sudden they need a personality. They need a face out there. And they almost always, inexorably, go for something special, outstanding and they just can't be, for the love of God, can't be real on these sites. About life, about misery, about being the underdog, the usual daily stuff.
    Edit: btw, alot of social last women are feminists too. maybe not active but I've seen 6s 'expose' guys who came on to them in a "wrong" way. Because 6s are moralistic and they need supporters (people agreeing with their opinions) to have their security, and being anti-feminist is fairly unaccepted though it's becoming more accepted now
    I thought social 6s, more precisely the 6+2 "Republicans" are the moralists, aren't they? There aren't much social last women out there, as much as I've reckoned. 5s may think they are.
    Anyways, knowing that this whole "protective vindictiveness" has already been criticized in 2016 as psychologically incorrect (by Haidt), I'll be turning more active politically..., well, just a bit, to broadcast the message on these typology forums that banning people for flirting with women is just not awesome. If they do it against being declined, then I agree, but done once, tentatively is not an offense. Of course, for the socials, it to be an offense is politically motivated. They'd get the smart people's reputation down so that their criticism would not be listened to.
    Except for impaired empathy, an ordinary guy who's looking for down-to-earth, loving, loyal friends and a geeky, warm, voluptuous girlfriend!

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    Jordan Peterson is a dude who is viewed as a jackass by the left but he occasionally gives good advice, heh ^_^ .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neokortex View Post
    I've seen his name popping up on YT recommendations a lot, as well as his face in the thumbnail but seriously, people, WHO THE FUCK IS JORDAN PETERSON????!! And why is everyone talking about him, paying him all that undue attention. Seriously, I think I had once clicked on a video with him but I was like eeww, what a skeezy, slimy guy, ewww, why is he always in a shirt looking like this burnt out alcoholic pretending to be professional... urghhh. Is he going to be the next president? I bet that's how Trump became the president, everybody hated him but they kept watching, and he gave a reason for people to point fingers on anything other than themselves and I guess they elected him to keep on having the pretext to deflect and gossip. Now this is what I hate about the socials, they always justify how bad bad can be so that it to flip over to be good. So bad that it's good = ironic camp. They get off on watching shit, then tweeting about.
    Peter Josephson is a professor and psychologist who got famous for his stance against the Canadian Bill C-16. What the bill says exactly, I'm not sure. It seems vague to me. Anyway, yeah it does seem to me like Jordan Josephson, like Donald Trumps, knows how to manipulate the media. He knows how to get the spotlight to shine in his direction. He's a psychologist after all, so I guess he knows how to manipulate people. I have a theory that came to me just now. Maybe they say things on purpose that they know people will take out of context or unfairly slam them for. And then they can say, "Look how unfairly I'm being treated. I'm harmless. I'm a victim. Everybody is treating me badly and unfairly." I guess it distracts from the actual horrible, violence-supporting things that they say. Plus it gets them attention. That's what they want. That's what every troll wants.
    EII-INFj / INFP / 4w5 5w4 9w1

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    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post
    Peter Josephson is a professor and psychologist who got famous for his stance against the Canadian Bill C-16. What the bill says exactly, I'm not sure. It seems vague to me. Anyway, yeah it does seem to me like Jordan Josephson, like Donald Trumps, knows how to manipulate the media. He knows how to get the spotlight to shine in his direction. He's a psychologist after all, so I guess he knows how to manipulate people. I have a theory that came to me just now. Maybe they say things on purpose that they know people will take out of context or unfairly slam them for. And then they can say, "Look how unfairly I'm being treated. I'm harmless. I'm a victim. Everybody is treating me badly and unfairly." I guess it distracts from the actual horrible, violence-supporting things that they say. Plus it gets them attention. That's what they want. That's what every troll wants.
    Peter Josephson?? D What was his dissertation about? I'm sure it must've been something about the art or psychology of persuasion.
    Except for impaired empathy, an ordinary guy who's looking for down-to-earth, loving, loyal friends and a geeky, warm, voluptuous girlfriend!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neokortex View Post
    Peter Josephson?? D What was his dissertation about? I'm sure it must've been something about the art or psychology of persuasion.
    About Bill C-16 you mean? His critique of it was something about freedom of speech and that one shouldn't be forced to use words or names or pronouns or what not. Whether the Bill actually goes against freedom of speech, I don't know for sure.
    EII-INFj / INFP / 4w5 5w4 9w1

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    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post
    About Bill C-16 you mean? His critique of it was something about freedom of speech and that one shouldn't be forced to use words or names or pronouns or what not. Whether the Bill actually goes against freedom of speech, I don't know for sure.
    I checked it. I think Jordan Peterson does the right thing in this case, in advocating against... well, if not precisely against the Bill C-16, but the more general "vindictive protectiveness" of transgender and non-gender-binary people's entitlement towards criminalizing someone because of misnaming their gender. There's a simple way of slipping out of this conflict: just call people based on their sex. Gender is cultural and you can always say you have perceived the person as physically male, even if they claim to be a transgender "woman." Just say that you though they were transvestites who still identified with being male. I mean what's the offense in insisting on calling someone based on their sex of birth? No plastic surgery is perfect.
    Except for impaired empathy, an ordinary guy who's looking for down-to-earth, loving, loyal friends and a geeky, warm, voluptuous girlfriend!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neokortex View Post
    I checked it. I think Jordan Peterson does the right thing in this case, in advocating against... well, if not precisely against the Bill C-16, but the more general "vindictive protectiveness" of transgender and non-gender-binary people's entitlement towards criminalizing someone because of misnaming their gender. There's a simple way of slipping out of this conflict: just call people based on their sex. Gender is cultural and you can always say you have perceived the person as physically male, even if they claim to be a transgender "woman." Just say that you though they were transvestites who still identified with being male. I mean what's the offense in insisting on calling someone based on their sex of birth? No plastic surgery is perfect.
    In my opinion, people can identify however they want. But I of course believe in free speech, so I'm not for criminalizing certain speech. Anyway, as a 4 So/Sp, do you have any advice on how to differentiate between the different instinctual stackings of 4, in laymen's terms ('cause I'm stupid)? There is so much different, confusing and contradicting information out there. I'm pretty certain I'm a 4w5, but don't know if I'm So/Sp, Sp/Sx, Sp/So, etc.
    EII-INFj / INFP / 4w5 5w4 9w1

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    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post
    In my opinion, people can identify however they want. But I of course believe in free speech, so I'm not for criminalizing certain speech. Anyway, as a 4 So/Sp, do you have any advice on how to differentiate between the different instinctual stackings of 4, in laymen's terms ('cause I'm stupid)? There is so much different, confusing and contradicting information out there. I'm pretty certain I'm a 4w5, but don't know if I'm So/Sp, Sp/Sx, Sp/So, etc.
    I might be able to help you a bit but I wouldn't want to derail this thread. Back to Jordanson. The problem is, the conservative side isn't really dealing with the biggest issue underneath it all. While people rage about SJWs, "trannies," the new PC-ness, internet authoritarianism, something important gets wiped under the carpet. And it is: money. While we fixate our gaze on the shifts of social culture's horizon, we tend to forget what REAL ACTIVISM was all about: not allowing some too much profit to amass, taxing the rich more, creating socioeconomic equality, as much as possible. Ofc, the this cultural circus is just the manifestation of the money problems, working class low wage, long shifts, etc. I think Jordanson knows this... I didn't listen to all his babbling but extroverts do just that: the more they talk-talk-talk, the more they delay ACTION. Chatting, doing "discourses", "giving commentary on events," "punditism" is how the extroverts contribute to public life. You never see Mr. Jordanson helping out on a construction site, in Chic-fil-a, do you? Neither do you see Mr. Slavoj Slavoj Žižek doing that - all they do is talk and write shittons of books. I've read Žižek and I know that he cheats. These are public figures, as well as pseudo-intellectuals (demagogues). The real intellectuals are the anthropologists who actually descend to the slums (e.g. cross the border with Mexicans) to make their report (but between them too there are some who do it for fame). So taking the right side on this "vindictive protectiveness" debate in his case is just image polishing, changing dots.
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    As stated in Soviet Russia, you don't care about politic, politic care about you.

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    @inabox What good advice does Peter Jordanson give, in your opinion?

    @Neokortex Some good points, though I wouldn't demonize extroverts or introverts.

    Im curious what people think of this experiment to possibly determine one's instinctual dominant drive. Starts at 6:38.

    EII-INFj / INFP / 4w5 5w4 9w1

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    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post
    @Neokortex Some good points, though I wouldn't demonize extroverts or introverts.
    But perhaps it's exactly something as strong as demonization that is needed sometimes to attract attention on an issue. Of course, it's not all up to extroverts. They are being lifted up by the masses. There's a complicity that is taking place, between these more exhibitionistic social types and the more servant, self-deprecating social types. The latter need these "visionary leaders" to use them as pretext/green light for collective projects and to delegate responsibility on when the project doesn't work out because of internal corruption.
    Except for impaired empathy, an ordinary guy who's looking for down-to-earth, loving, loyal friends and a geeky, warm, voluptuous girlfriend!

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    I have a passing interest in politics, basically just enough to see through the bullshit for what it is. Politicians are delusional and power hungry individuals that try to convince you that their lies are the best ones. I probably have a more extreme opinion on criminal justice than the most seeing how I want to bring back beheading and hanging for some crimes (terrorism to name one). I'm more uninterested in social justice I think it's just a bunch of whiny people in a he said she said situation most of the time. What does bother me is when people in place of authority misuse that authority in some way that I consider rude or violating, this can cause me to act in some unforseen way as a counterpart, evening the scales once again.
    "The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools." ―Thucydides



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    Quote Originally Posted by Neokortex View Post
    Why is the separation of Church and State a problem? I'm not from the U.S. but I've heard they are still pretty religious out there. Wouldn't that be the progressive move, according to your "progressive" politics to have them separated?
    I WANT separation of Church and State, and get annoyed when people want to push their own religion onto others, particularly through political means.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    I WANT separation of Church and State, and get annoyed when people want to push their own religion onto others, particularly through political means.
    hi Ann
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    hi Ann
    Hi Maritsa.

    (I'm not really back. I had just checked in to see if there were any private messages and/or notifications to catch up on. I hope all is well for ya'll.)
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    I just can't get myself into politics no matter how many times I have tried.

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    Well, dunno about so last. I have a sense of social justice however I think politics won't help you. It is basically professionally parasitical life wannabe important lifestyle that lives in its own ecosystem and sometimes crosses boundaries with others.
    Measuring you right now

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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    I've got a few pet peeves. Primarily about separation of Church and State, "a vote for x is a vote for y" bullshit, getting money out of politics, and things related to disabilities, social security, and medical. Oh, and what got me into politics in 2016 was my anger about how my 21yo daughter works a full time job at minimum wage, but still requires a co-signer to get one of the cheapest 1 bedroom apartments in town. I didn't have a problem getting cheapass apartments when I was her age, the price disparity has gotten out of proportion! That and the church/state thing are my biggest peeves.
    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    I WANT separation of Church and State, and get annoyed when people want to push their own religion onto others, particularly through political means.
    pet peeve = upsetting personal issue with sthing
    I thought you meant you take issue with the separation of the two. Anyways, reading the rest made me think why on earth was America labeled a "1st world country?" Over here we also had a rise in the flat rental prices, something about people not trusting the banks with their money, they'd rather convert it into mortgage. Not sure what "co-signers" are, though.

    Problem with Church is, humans procreate, reproduce way faster than our ability to spread, knowledge, culture, enlightenment, civility. There are and perhaps always will, more than enough uneducated masses willing to buy in whatever post-truth cult of the time. And Typology is not an exception. Most people here are the consumers of this cyberpunk religion. Because the thing with religion is... that it's always been the dominant paradigm of a certain place and a time. Religion has never been called as such, people were practicing it without being aware of other, possibly wider paradigms. And all religions are inherently typologies, indexing the exterior phenomena according to their political agenda. And all their followers are only the exploiters of the taxonomies (role players), the labels of their religion (masquerade), each twisting their chosen one (e.g. "EII") to mask their own hypocrisy. Each culture, system of significations is a religion.

    Lately, I've found two Sx women on youtube, one is an infamous ex-actress, the other a former typology enthusiast. Both have children as has the first Sx/Sp woman I met IRL. If you associate w/ the label "progressive," then why do you have children?
    Except for impaired empathy, an ordinary guy who's looking for down-to-earth, loving, loyal friends and a geeky, warm, voluptuous girlfriend!

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    The Enneagram is a pretty hard-to-decipher beast because there are so many different opinions wrt. what the types mean, but I'm mostly sure that I'm SP/SX, given the opinions that seem credible. I have zero motivation to sublimate myself into a greater cause; to engage in any kind of activism; or to follow the humdrum business of shifting rivalries and alliances. None. Zero.

    Even highschool politics was a challenge: I assumed people only conformed publicly, because they felt intimidated or intellectually unprepared to challenge "common wisdom;" I didn't realize that people would willingly change their deepest feelings to feel validated. It never even occurred to me that social pecking orders existed until I learned about the Enneagram -- social hierarchies might be more of a Conservative thing than an SO thing, though, so idk.


    That said, I do care about people getting screwed by the system. I like learning about the machinery of how society works. I'm interested in what other people are feeling, and many of these people naturally value SO.
    Last edited by xerxe; 06-12-2019 at 06:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    As stated in Soviet Russia, you don't care about politic, politic care about you.
    Whether or not this is intended as a joke, it makes a spectacularly good point. SP/SX or SX/SP types ought to care about politics because it has the potential to radically transform their world -- they can't ignore it anymore than they can ignore diabetes. Power is just another resource after all, and politics is the art of how power can be provisioned systematically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    SP/SX or SX/SP types ought to care about politics because it has the potential to radically transform their world -- they can't ignore it anymore than they can ignore diabetes.
    more like unable to ignore it anymore than we can ignore hunger...
    I have zero motivation to sublimate myself into a greater cause; to engage in any kind of activism; or to follow the humdrum business of shifting rivalries and alliances. None. Zero.
    so you're the miraculous subtype of So blind spot (given the opinion of others): the one that... doesn't have any blind spot overfocus... yea, I guess diabetes is a possibility more distant than hunger.
    Except for impaired empathy, an ordinary guy who's looking for down-to-earth, loving, loyal friends and a geeky, warm, voluptuous girlfriend!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neokortex View Post
    more like unable to ignore it anymore than we can ignore hunger...


    so you're the miraculous subtype of So blind spot (given the opinion of others): the one that... doesn't have any blind spot overfocus... yea, I guess diabetes is a possibility more distant than hunger.
    What is blind spot overfocus and what does hunger have to do with it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    What is blind spot overfocus and what does hunger have to do with it?
    https://www.personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/1255538-blind-spot-over-focus-thoughts-experiences.html
    hunger's just a metaphor to how urgent one feels the need to care for their blind spot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neokortex View Post
    https://www.personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/1255538-blind-spot-over-focus-thoughts-experiences.html
    hunger's just a metaphor to how urgent one feels the need to care for their blind spot
    I see. I don't know how "official" this theory is, but it seems like there are a number of ways to experience "hunger" other than the three points I listed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    I see. I don't know how "official" this theory is, but it seems like there are a number of ways to experience "hunger" other than the three points I listed.
    Possibly. But an So blind person may as well be hungry for the inability to hold down a job. And that's more immediate than a distant possibility of diabetes.
    Except for impaired empathy, an ordinary guy who's looking for down-to-earth, loving, loyal friends and a geeky, warm, voluptuous girlfriend!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neokortex View Post
    Possibly. But an So blind person may as well be hungry for the inability to hold down a job. And that's more immediate than a distant possibility of diabetes.
    Hey, you can completely screw yourself over and still worry about diabetes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    Hey, you can completely screw yourself over and still worry about diabetes.
    You're missing the point.
    Except for impaired empathy, an ordinary guy who's looking for down-to-earth, loving, loyal friends and a geeky, warm, voluptuous girlfriend!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neokortex View Post
    You're missing the point.
    OK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neokortex View Post
    Not sure what "co-signers" are, though.
    A co-signer is someone who has sufficient income/resources to qualify to pay for not only their own place, but also the new place to be rented. This means that if the primary renter doesn't have enough income to make the rent, then the owner can go after the co-signer to pay it. An example, my daughter doesn't make enough money to qualify for the cheapest rental here, even though she works full time at minimum wage. So my husband has had to co-sign her rental agreement; which means that if my daughter can't make the payments, or damages the property, the owner can force my husband to cover the costs.

    If you associate w/ the label "progressive," then why do you have children?
    1) Pregnancy can happen whether you want it to or not.
    2) I didn't know I was pregnant until 5 months along, so it was too late to abort.
    3) I've only ever had the one child.
    4) And finally, the decision to have or not have children is far more complex than one's political associations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    While "Progressive" is the closest label (that I know of) that might describe my stances, I don't actually DO anything, belong to any Progressive groups, keep up on what's going on, etc. [...]
    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    A co-signer is someone who has sufficient income/resources to qualify to pay for not only their own place, but also the new place to be rented. This means that if the primary renter doesn't have enough income to make the rent, then the owner can go after the co-signer to pay it. An example, my daughter doesn't make enough money to qualify for the cheapest rental here, even though she works full time at minimum wage. So my husband has had to co-sign her rental agreement; which means that if my daughter can't make the payments, or damages the property, the owner can force my husband to cover the costs.
    Lemme backtrack. So I don't understand: what was your problem with "co-signing" in 2016? The extra "red tape" work or that the minimum wage wasn't enough for a proper studio flat?

    May I tease you a bit further? The following is the direct continuation of the first quote:
    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    [...] On facebook I share/like some memes, and sometimes I share/like more than I wish I had, lol.[...]
    As an "Sx/Sp" and a "progressive".... how "socially blind" and how progressive is to share more memes than you wished for on social media?

    1) Pregnancy can happen whether you want it to or not.
    2) I didn't know I was pregnant until 5 months along, so it was too late to abort.
    3) I've only ever had the one child.
    4) And finally, the decision to have or not have children is far more complex than one's political associations.
    I'm only catching up now... so you're an ENFP in the MBTI, that means you're socially blind but you're an extrovert? ENFPs usually don't have Enneagram 6, except 7w6. I guess not having noticed your pregnancy sooner could be put down to inferior Si? How is keeping a child that could have been euthanized even at 5 months old less libertarian than your "libertarian e837 SLE older brother" that you piss off with memes? Yes, it's a complex decision... but is it complex in terms of rationality?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neokortex View Post
    Lemme backtrack. So I don't understand: what was your problem with "co-signing" in 2016? The extra "red tape" work or that the minimum wage wasn't enough for a proper studio flat?
    My problem with cosigning is that it means that the cost of rent here is way too high for a full time worker to be able to get even the cheapest and crappiest one bedroom apartment.
    But it's not just the monthly cost of the apartment, my daughter could cover that by careful budgeting as I had. The problem is the demands that a renter must have an income that is 3 times the amount of the rent. Which then means that there must be two people working to get a studio or one bedroom apartment, and at least 3 people working full time to get a two bedroom apartment.

    This means, in turn, that there are fewer choices and fewer options for workers and families today than there were when I was in my late teens and early 20s.
    It influences whether or not a worker can go to school to improve their job prospects, or even to be looking for another job. More specifically for me, it means my daughter will be stuck in her dead-end job with nearly zero chances of upward mobility which could provide greater economic security, and significantly greater changes of even further downward mobility which would give way to even greater economical insecurity.
    It also is a major reason why we have more homeless people than ever before. College students and single workers living in their cars.

    And I worry about what will happen to my daughter when there's no one who can cosign for her. She'll become homeless as well. So I have to find ways of teaching her how to do that and be safe and well.
    (and this doesn't even cover the climate change effects on economic security)

    May I tease you a bit further? The following is the direct continuation of the first quote:

    As an "Sx/Sp" and a "progressive".... how "socially blind" and how progressive is to share more memes than you wished for on social media?
    I don't understand this question.
    There are better ways of spending my time than sitting at a desk on the internet watching cute animal and political videos.
    Also, I'm in a perpetual back and forth between Transmitting mode (Sx) (the liking and sharing of posts/memes/etc) vs a more Self-Preserving mode (Sp) (taking care of my nest, and preparing for times of insecurity).
    None of this itself has to do with "progressive" label. Only the types of political shares.


    I'm only catching up now... so you're an ENFP in the MBTI, that means you're socially blind but you're an extrovert? ENFPs usually don't have Enneagram 6, except 7w6. I guess not having noticed your pregnancy sooner could be put down to inferior Si? How is keeping a child that could have been euthanized even at 5 months old less libertarian than your "libertarian e837 SLE older brother" that you piss off with memes? Yes, it's a complex decision... but is it complex in terms of rationality?
    Regarding my typing:
    No, I'm NeFi in Socionics.
     
    In MBTI I'm xNfx. (x means that I'm really close to the border of the two choices and it would switch depending on circumstances, lowercase f means I leaned more F than T, and Capital N means there was no doubt/borderingness)


    Regarding NeFi and e6:
    Enneagram 6 is a head fixation type, dealing with the aversive emotion of fear.
    So take a socionics NeFi with their ability to look at things from differing even conflicting perspectives...
    ...add a very high propensity for Neuroticism, and very low propensity for Conscientiousness...
    ...add a bunch of life and security threatening trauma into their developing years...
    ...and BOOM!

    I also have a long (enneagram related) history on this forum of fluctuating between my normal anxious and insecure mode: 6w7 sx/sp (or sp/sx)...to doing things that'll help me feel more secure and less anxious 6w7 sp/sx...which has the side-benefit of bringing up my confidence levels which leads me to go out and explore more ...7w6 sx/sp ... which only lasts a few days (if even that) before I'm back to seeing I had probably made yet another poor decision, imagining all the ways that something can go wrong, and returning to anxious mode.

    Regarding 5 months before knowing prego:
    Not having noticed my pregnancy is simple, but multi-influenced:
    a) I have polycystic ovary syndrome aka PCOS. This means that I can go months (my record was 9 months without being pregnant) without having a period..and without having been pregnant. It also means that pregnancy is harder to accomplish because there's too thick of a wall around the uterus (due to lack of monthly shedding), as well as scar tissue, that blocks a fertilized egg from attaching to the uterus.
    b) The time when I was throwing up? My roommate was cooking our food and she kept not cooking things properly. I assumed the throwing up had to do with that. "confirmed" when I took over the cooking for myself again and stopped throwing up.
    c) I was on psyche meds that have side effects of weight gain. So even though I was in the best shape of my life, physically active, doing workouts, going to college to get a Recreation/Fitness Degree, etc...I kept gaining weight. I assumed it was the meds until I reached a point where I was panicked that maybe it was a tumor instead. (I wasn't dating or such, so there wasn't any recent sexual activity.)
    d) By the time I bought the pregnancy tests, and went to see a Dr to verify, I was already 5 months along.

    Regarding the last two Qs:
    What does keeping and raising the child I couldn't abort have to do with libertarianism or my brother?

    I kept the child because I was responsible for her. I considered seeing if her father wanted her, or his parents, but I didn't think they could do a good job of raising her. And when her special needs would over-power my own, I'd reconsider sending her to them. But ultimately I felt I would be the one best to understand what she was dealing with, and finding ways to help her overcome them. There was also a wanting to stop the cycle of abuse that ran rampant in our family. And the only way I felt I could ensure that was to be the one who raised her instead of them.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    My problem with cosigning is that it means that the cost of rent here is way too high for a full time worker to be able to get even the cheapest and crappiest one bedroom apartment.
    But it's not just the monthly cost of the apartment, my daughter could cover that by careful budgeting as I had. The problem is the demands that a renter must have an income that is 3 times the amount of the rent. Which then means that there must be two people working to get a studio or one bedroom apartment, and at least 3 people working full time to get a two bedroom apartment.

    This means, in turn, that there are fewer choices and fewer options for workers and families today than there were when I was in my late teens and early 20s.
    It influences whether or not a worker can go to school to improve their job prospects, or even to be looking for another job. More specifically for me, it means my daughter will be stuck in her dead-end job with nearly zero chances of upward mobility which could provide greater economic security, and significantly greater changes of even further downward mobility which would give way to even greater economical insecurity.
    It also is a major reason why we have more homeless people than ever before. College students and single workers living in their cars.

    And I worry about what will happen to my daughter when there's no one who can cosign for her. She'll become homeless as well. So I have to find ways of teaching her how to do that and be safe and well.
    (and this doesn't even cover the climate change effects on economic security)
    Historically, banks won't lend you money to buy a house unless your household income is 2.4X the cost of the house. 3X seems excessive. The landlords are trying to get a richer clientele.

    Usually, the cost of property and the cost of rent is closely tied to how much money you can make by living in that area. High rents = high incomes. Of course, that is an average. When people are just starting out in their careers, it helps to have parental support.

    You can't do much about this, but if property taxes were higher, then property would be worth less and it would cost less to buy property and consequently landlords wouldn't have to charge so much rent to cover their loan costs. They would, however, pass along the property tax increase to their renters.
    BUT, with the added revenue from property taxes, the government could lower the income tax, which is a tax on productive labor, and renters with income would come out ahead. Why would you want to tax productive labor? Whatever you tax, you get less of.


    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    Regarding the last two Qs:
    What does keeping and raising the child I couldn't abort have to do with libertarianism or my brother?

    I kept the child because I was responsible for her. I considered seeing if her father wanted her, or his parents, but I didn't think they could do a good job of raising her. And when her special needs would over-power my own, I'd reconsider sending her to them. But ultimately I felt I would be the one best to understand what she was dealing with, and finding ways to help her overcome them. There was also a wanting to stop the cycle of abuse that ran rampant in our family. And the only way I felt I could ensure that was to be the one who raised her instead of them.
    Good for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Historically, banks won't lend you money to buy a house unless your household income is 2.4X the cost of the house. 3X seems excessive. The landlords are trying to get a richer clientele.
    There's a few things going on from what I can understand.
    For starters, we're in a college town, so there's high demand for rentals. Also, they charge extra rent for each person that shares the apartment. The understanding has been that if a student is renting an apartment, they must be from out of county, and so it's expected that the parents of the students will pay for some if not all the rent.

    Also, due to the high demand, lots with homes are being torn down and multi-level apartment complexes are being built by the same developers who aren't local (probably from California). Even the cheaper apartments have been bought by these people. When I first moved out here (22 or so years ago), only a few apartments had this 3x requirement, and yes, they were in the nicer areas, with nicer apartments. I think the 3x demand started appearing more, in lesser neighborhoods, around the time when these developers were starting to push hard to buy up house lots to convert into apartments.

    I feel like there's gotta be at least 1-2 other reasons why this has become such a widespread practice here, though.


    Usually, the cost of property and the cost of rent is closely tied to how much money you can make by living in that area. High rents = high incomes. Of course, that is an average. When people are just starting out in their careers, it helps to have parental support.
    That's what I would have thought. Unfortunately my daughter was born to me, I'm on disability, and so my income is below poverty line. I'm not eligible to cosign for her. Richard and I aren't actually married, but he's been kind enough to cosign for her before. Though he refuses to do it if she has a roommate. (understandable, he doesn't want to be held responsible for someone else) So my ability to help her is limited. I keep hinting to her that things might be easier financially if she moved somewhere else. But she wants to be near her friends, and where things are familiar to her. (If I wasn't with Richard, I'd have left this area years ago.)
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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