Unconscious Function Produces Strong Results?

[Desert Financial]

Have you ever wondered how unconscious/vital functions could be strong?

Model A claims that the id block consists of strong unconscious functions. This seems counterintuitive and questionable.

Unconscious functions exist lower on the stack than conscious functions, so they tend to be underused. Strong functions process information at a high level of sophistication.

Assuming every function is mapped to a neural pathway, a region of the brain, or other construct that requires upkeep to stay strong, Model A's claim is like saying that a weightlifter's right bicep will remain just as strong as their left bicep even if they don't use their right bicep nearly as much.

[ashlesha]

it makes intuitive sense to me because people are driven by unconscious forces.

you might be interested in model x which states that the unvalued elements aren't part of our cognition at all. I can't find much on it except this crusty old thread

[Desert Financial]

it makes intuitive sense to me because people are driven by unconscious forces.

you might be interested in model x which states that the unvalued elements aren't part of our cognition at all. I can't find much on it except this crusty old thread

Like all unconscious forces, it makes sense the unconscious functions would have a strong influence over the psyche.

But Model A claims that strong functions have a higher degree of sophistication and that information processed through the id functions has a high quality.

Bukalov took Model A and made an even bolder stance with the theory of dimensionalities. The argument is that the demonstrative function has an equal number of dimensions as the leading function.

These conclusions practically fly in the face of cognitive research that concludes that if a cognitive skill falls to disuse, it will atrophy. The skill can be picked back up with greater ease than it was initially learned, but it still suffers from some amount of disrepair.

[ashlesha]

Like all unconscious forces, it makes sense the unconscious functions would have a strong influence over the psyche.

But Model A claims that strong functions have a higher degree of sophistication and that information processed through the id functions has a high quality.

Bukalov took Model A and made an even bolder stance with the theory of dimensionalities. The argument is that the demonstrative function has an equal number of dimensions as the leading function.

These conclusions practically fly in the face of cognitive research that concludes that if a cognitive skills falls to disuse, it will atrophy. The skill can be picked back up with greater ease than it was initially learned, but it still suffers from some amount of disrepair.

probably it depends on whether you think that Ti for example is completely independent of Te or if they're actually two sides of the same coin, or whatever. if they are, then the corresponding function isn't falling to disuse because its being used at the same time. (I'm probably not providing any insights lol sorry, I just think these kinds of questions are interesting and I'm glad to see a thread that isn't about how types like to eat or fuck)

[Desert Financial]

probably it depends on whether you think that Ti for example is completely independent of Te or if they're actually two sides of the same coin, or whatever. if they are, then the corresponding function isn't falling to disuse because its being used at the same time. (I'm probably not providing any insights lol sorry, I just think these kinds of questions are interesting and I'm glad to see a thread that isn't about how types like to eat or fuck)

Haha. No, you're good. I appreciate your feedback, lump.

Conceptually, Ti and Te are two sides of the same coin.

The question is if T, F, N, and S generally correspond to similar neural activity. For example, maybe F generally corresponds to strength in the amygdala, while the determining factor of orientation is the amount of activity in the dopamine reward network.

Thank you re: the bolded.

[Desert Financial]

@fox, would you kindly move this thread to the general socionics discussion subforum?

[Sol]

Functions of different E/I are linked. When you are using one of them, the other is used in the background. But we don't think about this.
For example, Si is harmony of traits, but you need to see these traits (Se) to value their harmony. And to notice traits separately (Se) you should to have a general pattern (Si) where to look.
So you have similarly trained both E/I sides of a function and can to use id function directly with good efficiency. But people generally are not so good in _concrete skills_ related to id functions, because they have lesser interest to train those skills.
As people lesser think directly about id regions, so in some sense id is unconscious. But it's not same like weak functions are unconscious, - those are retarded, wild, difficult to be switched to and used.

[Kiba]

The approach you are taking and the comparative you are using maybe are complicating unnecessarily your understanding of the model.
The right approach is psychology. The model was created from as a psychological tool for understanding personality.
Model A works with the Ego, Super Ego and Id, which are the three parts of Physic apparatus, in the structural model proposed by Freud. It is about The Mental Life of the individuals, where the personality relies.

We can say its a psychological theory of personality. Forgetting that Personality Theory is part of psychology limits the understanding and correct use of the theory.

And, what is personality?

Personality is defined as the set of habitual behaviors, cognitions and emotional patterns that evolve from biological and environmental factors...Trait-based personality theories, define personality as the traits that predict a person's behavior.
-Source Wiki.

Comparing personality with used muscles is an odd approach imo. Personality is behaviors, cognition and emotional patterns…psyche is intangible but its results are observable. Socionics does not includes in the theory development of IEs, its just a program in which each personality works.

In that sense, then, ID is the primal instinctual part, Super ego is the critical and moralizing role, Ego is the organized, realistic part that mediates between the desires of the id and the super ego.



Ego Block--CONSCIOUS SELF, THE "I" 1-3 yo
1.Leading Function 4D
2.Creative Function 3D
Super-Ego Block--CONSCIENCE 5-6 yo
3.Role Function 2D
4.Vulnerable Function 1D
Super-Id Block--SUBCONSCIOUS, INNER CHILD, EGO IDEAL* 5-6yo
5.Suggestive Function 1D
6.Mobilizing Function 2D
Id Block--INSTINCTS- Primary Process Thinking 0-1 yo
7.Ignoring Function 3D
8.Demonstrative Function 4D



Why the first two and last two functions are the strongest? Is it contradictory? No.
Because Instincts and Ego are the Strongest parts of human Psyche. And they are the first stages of development of the psyche of the individual and its personality. Psyche is an apparatus, a machine who works or plays with certain program.

The ID block is used and well known for the individual, but its brushed away systematically by the EGO (the part which mediates between instincts-id- and the conscience -super EGO-) normal daily basis. However, the Id could manifest without mediation when the rest of the parts of the apparatus are compromised or threatened. In other words, are the basic instincts of the personality or the shadow functions that portrays the exact opposite of the mediator (each side of the same coin) f.e.:
Si= peaceful Se=aggression

Each personality have two IEs as Primary process thinking (instincts):
LII: Ni Te
ILE: Te Ni
ESE: Se Fi
SEI: Fi Se
LSI: Si Te
SLE: Te Si
EIE: Ne Fi
IEI: Fi Ne
ESI: Si Fe
SEE: Fe Si
LIE: Ne Ti
ILI: Ti Ne
EII: Ni Fe
IEE: Fe Ni
LSE: Se Ti
SLI: Ti Se


How does it manifests? The Oldham description could portray how the Id or instincts looks in each type (with each respective disorder).

The 7th Function Its called ignoring (as the names says, because we IGNORE voluntarily this function. How each type experiments 8th function is different and it depends on the characteristics of the IE. If its Intuition, Sensoring, Thinking or Feeling. Whatever the case, the type is well versed in the use and understanding of such function, but its often considered UNIMPORTANT and too limiting compared with the preferred (refined version) 3rd function. These both work in instinctive way, are used in these terms: vital (life/death pulsations), 7th , pushing to fulfill needs (producing 8th).

EXAMPLES:
Situation A: Extreme situation (F.e. life or death), Ego and Super Ego shocked. Used IE: Vital, 7th.

IEE, ILE: Ni. F.e. Focusing in the worst outcome, anxiety for the future, deep concerns, worried about the specific threatening situation.
SLI, SEI: Se. F.e. Fight, forcefully impose. Aggression.
EII, ESI: Fe. F.e. Showing up emotions. Scream, yell, calling attention, drama.
LSE, LIE: Ti. F.e. Become quiet and retreat to think introvertedly. Consider particularities of the threatening situation. Using subjective logic to think in the logical details and particularities of the life death situation. Spot inconsistency and contradictions. Look for reestructure.
ILI, IEI: Ne. F.e. Consider new possibilities. Different outcomes of particular threatening situation. Being positive.
SEE, SLE: Si. F.e. Act chill. Calm down. Seek for own comfort or relief.
EIE, ESE: Fi. F.e. Consider its own particular feelings and morals. Think of their loved ones.
LII, LSI: Te. F.e. Using practical logic. Thinking how to solve the problem practically (hands on, setting steps).

* Super Ego (morals) is divided in two parts, Conscience and Ego Ideal. The Ego Ideal would turn lately in the seeking or suggestive. What we look for in others. In need of psychological sources of term Super ID, however.

[Bertrand]

to add to what Sluga is saying here, I really like DarkAngelFireWolf69's expansion of these concepts with regard to Model A

[Desert Financial]

The approach you are taking and the comparative you are using maybe are complicating unnecessarily your understanding of the model.
The right approach is psychology. The model was created from as a psychological tool for understanding personality.
Model A works with the Ego, Super Ego and Id, which are the three parts of Physic apparatus, in the structural model proposed by Freud. It is about The Mental Life of the individuals, where the personality relies.

We can say its a psychological theory of personality. Forgetting that Personality Theory is part of psychology limits the understanding and correct use of the theory.

And, what is personality?

Personality is defined as the set of habitual behaviors, cognitions and emotional patterns that evolve from biological and environmental factors...Trait-based personality theories, define personality as the traits that predict a person's behavior.
-Source Wiki.

Comparing personality with used muscles is an odd approach imo. Personality is behaviors, cognition and emotional patterns…psyche is intangible but its results are observable. Socionics does not includes in the theory development of IEs, its just a program in which each personality works.

In that sense, then, ID is the primal instinctual part, Super ego is the critical and moralizing role, Ego is the organized, realistic part that mediates between the desires of the id and the super ego.



Ego Block--CONSCIOUS SELF, THE "I" 1-3 yo
1.Leading Function 4D
2.Creative Function 3D
Super-Ego Block--CONSCIENCE 5-6 yo
3.Role Function 2D
4.Vulnerable Function 1D
Super-Id Block--SUBCONSCIOUS, INNER CHILD, EGO IDEAL* 5-6yo
5.Suggestive Function 1D
6.Mobilizing Function 2D
Id Block--INSTINCTS- Primary Process Thinking 0-1 yo
7.Ignoring Function 3D
8.Demonstrative Function 4D



Why the first two and last two functions are the strongest? Is it contradictory? No.
Because Instincts and Ego are the Strongest parts of human Psyche. And they are the first stages of development of the psyche of the individual and its personality. Psyche is an apparatus, a machine who works or plays with certain program.

The ID block is used and well known for the individual, but its brushed away systematically by the EGO (the part which mediates between instincts-id- and the conscience -super EGO-) normal daily basis. However, the Id could manifest without mediation when the rest of the parts of the apparatus are compromised or threatened. In other words, are the basic instincts of the personality or the shadow functions that portrays the exact opposite of the mediator (each side of the same coin) f.e.:
Si= peaceful Se=aggression

Each personality have two IEs as Primary process thinking (instincts):
LII: Ni Te
ILE: Te Ni
ESE: Se Fi
SEI: Fi Se
LSI: Si Te
SLE: Te Si
EIE: Ne Fi
IEI: Fi Ne
ESI: Si Fe
SEE: Fe Si
LIE: Ne Ti
ILI: Ti Ne
EII: Ni Fe
IEE: Fe Ni
LSE: Se Ti
SLI: Ti Se


How does it manifests? The Oldham description could portray how the Id or instincts looks in each type (with each respective disorder).

The 7th Function Its called ignoring (as the names says, because we IGNORE voluntarily this function. How each type experiments 8th function is different and it depends on the characteristics of the IE. If its Intuition, Sensoring, Thinking or Feeling. Whatever the case, the type is well versed in the use and understanding of such function, but its often considered UNIMPORTANT and too limiting compared with the preferred (refined version) 3rd function. These both work in instinctive way, are used in these terms: vital (life/death pulsations), 7th , pushing to fulfill needs (producing 8th).

EXAMPLES:
Situation A: Extreme situation (F.e. life or death), Ego and Super Ego shocked. Used IE: Vital, 7th.

IEE, ILE: Ni. F.e. Focusing in the worst outcome, anxiety for the future, deep concerns, worried about the specific threatening situation.
SLI, SEI: Se. F.e. Fight, forcefully impose. Aggression.
EII, ESI: Fe. F.e. Showing up emotions. Scream, yell, calling attention, drama.
LSE, LIE: Ti. F.e. Become quiet and retreat to think introvertedly. Consider particularities of the threatening situation. Using subjective logic to think in the logical details and particularities of the life death situation. Spot inconsistency and contradictions. Look for reestructure.
ILI, IEI: Ne. F.e. Consider new possibilities. Different outcomes of particular threatening situation. Being positive.
SEE, SLE: Si. F.e. Act chill. Calm down. Seek for own comfort or relief.
EIE, ESE: Fi. F.e. Consider its own particular feelings and morals. Think of their loved ones.
LII, LSI: Te. F.e. Using practical logic. Thinking how to solve the problem practically (hands on, setting steps).

* Super Ego (morals) is divided in two parts, Conscience and Ego Ideal. The Ego Ideal would turn lately in the seeking or suggestive. What we look for in others. In need of psychological sources of term Super ID, however.

Thank you Syrup. I basically understand the psychoanalytic basis of the model, but your information helps flesh out the basic idea.

The model has internal consistency. It also has an element of symmetry, as illustrated by its numerous dichotomies. By expounding its basic premises with duality, it follows a clear Jungian tradition.


My questions are as follows:

In light of what modern psychology demonstrates about cognitive abilities, does Model A hold up to scientific scrutiny?

To illustrate my point, we know that cognitive skills start to wane if the person goes without using them. For example, if we fail to use a learned language for too long, we will forget aspects and eventually lose fluency. Furthermore, if we neglect to play an instrument we've learned, our skill will atrophy. Declining skills have been measured in schools, where students lose 30% or more of their working knowledge during summer break.

So, as aspects of cognition, how are IMs any different?

Model A states that lesser used IMs are just as strong as the more used IMs, not just in psychological power, but in sophistication (eg. SLI has 4D and 4D and LII has 4D and 4D ). What basis is there for this claim?

[Bertrand]

I think the idea is your cognitive functions are on all the time, you parse every event through your IM pathway. Skills are something else. They're not really related in the sense that a decline in skills could be for any number of reasons just like a decline in cognitive function could likewise have different causes. Although the two often go together it doesn't implicate functions as being degradable from lack of use the same way perishable skills might degrade from lack of use over time. In fact, you might say skills decline because your brain is focusing attention on differing endeavors and thus pushing upkeep on those skills to the backburner, but its doing that according the functions that are always on. So while skills are degrading your cognitive functions are still being used in more or less the same proportion they always were. They are just being directed at experience less conducive to the upkeep or development of the skills hitherto developed. But the cognitive functions are still going strong.

I feel like maybe theres an equivocation on "skill" in the sense that dimensionality is being conceived of as a kind of skill, when its just the most general way you frame information that doesn't really change. in other words a 2d function is always a 2d function, although the person who views the world through the lens of that 2d function may accumulate a body of skills and knowledge associated with the information derived through that function. at no point does the function itself develop, that is just sort of a misnomer, what is really being developed is the underlying body of knowledge that is fed by that function.

When people say "I'm developing my Ti" that's not strictly speaking correct if they mean they're developing the dimensions of that function. Rather they're developing the underlying body of information associated with Ti by willfully focusing on Ti aspects in the world. Its equivalent to a "type accent" to focus on information in that way. DarkAngelFireWolf69 calls subtypes strongly associated with accents as the "spontaneous return mid IM cycle to certain functions" so creative subtypes demonstrate the habit of constantly "checking in" with Ne and Se, but they're doing it in a way consistent with the dimensions of their overall personality. This may take their journey in a different direction than someone of a different subtype, so their underlying body of knowledge will take on a different shape, and because everyone has the aspect of experience available to them they may seem to have developed a heightened understanding of those aspects that we would intuitively associate with higher dimensionality, but what distinguishes true higher dimensionality is the capacity to learn those lessons in real time rather than on the basis of mistakes. in other words, anyone can learn an "exception" (3d) once they've fallen into the pit once, but what distinguishes "strong" functions (3d+) is the ability to perceive the need for the exception prior to the moment of truth. So personality may shape the overall skillset of a person in the sense that strong functions develop the underlying abilities quicker, because they can learn without having to make mistakes, but a type accent might get someone to a place where they can function well enough in comparison, but only by having learned "the hard way."

At a certain point, only some skills can be developed by 4d functions simply because there's not enough time in the world or no ones that hard headed. in other words, the stakes are usually too high to allow for mistakes in certain sufficiently competitive ventures. people don't really develop the skills associated with certain functions simply because there's no live opportunities to make that happen. Its like Se polr becoming a pro athlete, the nature of the sport likely precludes that, not because its impossible in theory for a person to develop those abilities, but it does make it impossible more or less under the circumstances. People tend to gravitate toward an environment that rewards their strength, because people tend to think in terms of personal realization as being the pursuit of those social needs that they are uniquely gifted to address. In other words, mental health depends to a certain degree to find a use for your skills that promote self esteem, which means the area wherein you are "above average." Now, I'm back to using the skills word, but I mean to develop your body of knowledge in a way that places you higher up in competitiveness because you can develop that underlying body of knowledge quickly and stay ahead of the game and be rewarded and acknowledged because of your ability to do so. A lot of it comes down to being competitive in time, in other words, strong functions mean you can "run ahead" of problems and gratifying employment usually means being in an area where you do that, because you help people with things they can't necessarily do as well, and are rewarded for it. It is in some sense the basis of the meritocracy

[Pookie]

Ignoring is constantly being used to feed the base. But the info changes form. Your ability to manifest ignoring info in ignoring form often does suck. But ignoring is strong, because the way it's used doesn't require it to remain in form.

Demonstrative is usually lived and not spoken. It still requires constant consideration.

[Kiba]

Thank you Syrup. I basically understand the psychoanalytic basis of the model, but your information helps flesh out the basic idea.

The model has internal consistency. It also has an element of symmetry, as illustrated by its numerous dichotomies. By expounding its basic premises with duality, it follows a clear Jungian tradition.


My questions are as follows:

In light of what modern psychology demonstrates about cognitive abilities, does Model A hold up to scientific scrutiny?

To illustrate my point, we know that cognitive skills start to wane if the person goes without using them. For example, if we fail to use a learned language for too long, we will forget aspects and eventually lose fluency. Furthermore, if we neglect to play an instrument we've learned, our skill will atrophy. Declining skills have been measured in schools, where students lose 30% or more of their working knowledge during summer break.

So, as aspects of cognition, how are IMs any different?

Model A states that lesser used IMs are just as strong as the more used IMs, not just in psychological power, but in sophistication (eg. SLI has 4D and 4D and LII has 4D and 4D ). What basis is there for this claim?

I second Bert and Pookie, IEs are not actual skills and 1,2 and 7,8 functions are used. I think you are confusing unvalued with unused, but according Model A theory, unvalued doesnt mean unused.

The four first functions (EGO and Super ID blocks) are mental and conscious, the last four Vital functions are unconscious (instinctive). In other words, EGO and ID Block are used, Ego consciously, ID subconsciously. Unvalued doesn't mean unused. Just favored in state of preference when interacting with the world.


Strong IEs or functions are the way each personality process information (information metabolism) and the attention focus or source (internal/external, emotional, logical, etc) of information. The skills each person develop (or not) are favored or disfavored and motivated or demotivated (interested/uninterested) depending on the IEs that his or her personality has, probably. But are independent of the actual personality type and its ways of processing information.

Anyway, model A says that for example, sensors are strong in both, Si and Se, since both are part of the same element which is Sensing and both (Si and Se) works in the person simultaneously. The same with the rest of elements, Intuition, Logic or Ethics. Thats why I used the example of a coin. It has two faces, but its the same coin. Another example would be a line. For being a line it needs to have two extremes. If it lacks one, it wont be a line anymore, its just a dot. For being a sensor or an intuitive, you need both, the introverted and extroverted versions working in your personality, one exposed the other underground.



Finally some text as support taken form model A theory:

1. Leading Function Accepting Mental Strong Valued	2. Creative Function Producing Mental Strong Valued
4. Vulnerable Function Producing Mental Weak Unvalued	3. Role Function Accepting Mental Weak Unvalued
6. Mobilizing Function Producing Vital Weak Valued	5. Suggestive Function Accepting Vital Weak Valued
7. Ignoring Function Accepting Vital Strong Unvalued	8. Demonstrative Function Producing Vital Strong Unvalued

The blocks in Model A are all interconnected to each other. Because the Ego block is both strong and valued, it essentially controls the person's information metabolism, direction of thought, etc. The Ego block sets the goals and direction, and then subconsciously relies on the Id block to provide necessary background information and data that the ego block will use in decision-making.

The Mental/Vital Dichotomy
The mental/vital dichotomy can also be thought of as the conscious/unconscious dichotomy. The conscious functions are functions 1-4 in Model A; these functions are also referred to as the mental ring. The unconscious functions are functions 5-8 in Model A; these functions are also referred to as the vital ring. The mental functions take a forward role in a person's information metabolism. They are readily used in conscious thought, conversations, verbalizing ideas, making observations, and other conscious thought processes. On the other hand, vital functions play a background role. They are just as active in information metabolism but play more of a support role to the mental functions. Essentially, the mental functions (primarily those in the Ego block) dictate the direction of thought but rely on the vital functions (primarily those in the Id block) for information and support.

The Strong/Weak Dichotomy
The Ego and Id functions are called strong, and the Super-ego and and super-id functions are called weak. Strong functions have a much higher capacity and ability to accurately metabolize information. This manifests in a more sophisticated understanding and use of the information in the function's sphere. The person feels confident in using these functions. It also generally results in increased reliance and use of these functions. Strong functions not only benefit oneself, but also those around him because the strength of the functions allows him to easily use the functions to help others in that area. Weak functions tend to oversimplify information, resulting in information metabolism that is less developed and thorough. The effect of this is twofold: (1)the person tends to avoid using these functions as much as he/she uses his strong functions, and (2) the person may seek assistance from others who are stronger with these functions if he values them. The person feels less confident using these functions.

The Valued/Unvalued Dichotomy
Valued functions include functions 1, 2, 5, and 6. Unvalued functions include functions 3, 4, 7, and 8. Because one's ego block (functions 1 and 2) are strong and valued, this forms the core of the person's socionics type. Because they are valued and strong, the person nearly always prefers using his ego block when processing information and appreciates others who value the same information elements. The Super-id block is also valued and because the person is weak in these functions, he seeks out others who are strong in those information elements (and value them like he/she does).
A person is indifferent to unvalued functions and see little reason to emphasize or focus on them. As such, a person tends to limit the use and freedom of these functions. As mentioned above, unvalued functions are found in both the Super-ego block and the Id block. Because they are unvalued, both these blocks are generally subjugated to the will of the valued blocks.

Source

Hope that could help.