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    Question Empathy

    Hello, I was wondering if empathy is associated with Fe, Fi or both.
    If it's Fe, xEEs have Fe demonstrative so doesn't that make them capable of it even if it's not a valued function? And the same if it's Fi.
    Any thoughts?

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    I do not think it is function related. It stand outside of Socionics. Empathy is being not narcissistic. ;p

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    I always divide it like this, of course these two always have an interplay in all ethical types though:

    empathizing: I can feel what you feel - identification/understanding.
    sympathizing: I have affinity with your situation - support/association.

    SEE and IEE might stress the latter but may really be good with the former.

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    its generally frowned upon to associate intelligence with type, I don't see why it isn't the same with qualities like empathy.

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    Fe/Ti: Affective empathy
    Fi/Te: Cognitive empathy
    Justin Bieber: No empathy

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    Affective empathy can be subdivided into the following scales:[48][57]


    • Empathic concern: sympathy and compassion for others in response to their suffering.[48][58][59]
    • Personal distress: self-centered feelings of discomfort and anxiety in response to another's suffering.[48][58][59] There is no consensus regarding whether personal distress is a basic form of empathy or instead does not constitute empathy.[58] There may be a developmental aspect to this subdivision. Infants respond to the distress of others by getting distressed themselves; only when they are 2 years old do they start to respond in other-oriented ways, trying to help, comfort and share.[58]

    Cognitive empathy can be subdivided into the following scales:[48][57]

    • Perspective-taking: the tendency to spontaneously adopt others' psychological perspectives.[48]
    • Fantasy: the tendency to identify with fictional characters.[48]
    • Tactical (or "strategic") empathy: the deliberate use of perspective-taking to achieve certain desired ends.[60]
    I choose bird's eye view.
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    Bullets nailed it.
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

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    Fe-mphaty.

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    Maybe not as much type related, but i know at least several russian socionists have called EII "The Empath" so going off of that alone i'd have guessed Fi (?)
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

    They asked the fox, "Who's your witness?" The fox said, "My tail!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    I always divide it like this, of course these two always have an interplay in all ethical types though:

    empathizing: I can feel what you feel - identification/understanding.
    sympathizing: I have affinity with your situation - support/association.

    SEE and IEE might stress the latter but may really be good with the former.
    It's the other way around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavos View Post
    It's the other way around.
    No. Time for the memes:












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    Fi. But Fe types have strong Fi too.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    I say ethical creatives.

    creative+demonstrative combo gives widest set of tools but it is not specialized.
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    Unrelated. I'm a Ti user yet i have intense empathy

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    @Delilah I'm not sure but I think Dostoyevsky is beta NF and he is typed EII... this confuses me and I still don't know the type EII well to call them "The Empath".
    If it was type related (which I think is more likely) then I lean more towards what @Chae said about Empathy (Fe) and Sympathy (Fi), if what she said is true then the types who should be called the empath are ESE and EIE.
    But all ethical types have Fe, so is it an ethical type quality?
    I really can't imagine LSI (or any logical type) being more empathetic than an EIE (or any ethical type).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    No. Time for the memes:
    No need (but those images really clarify things for people, thanks!). You got that right. What I meant is that Fe (particularly beta Fe) is sympathy and Fi (particularly delta Fi) is empathy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavos View Post
    No need (but those images really clarify things for people, thanks!). You got that right. What I meant is that Fe (particularly beta Fe) is sympathy and Fi (particularly delta Fi) is empathy.
    Beta wants to share sentiments because likes to equalize, Delta is the "aww" or "oh no..." type of reaction that still remains separate. After all, it's an introverted element. is empathetic because it leaves room for two at the same time.

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    this empathy/sympathy distinction pisses me off, because its loaded with presuppositions from the get go based on whatever the person making it values. you could just as easily label Fi as empathy, because the person has a bottom up structural understanding of affairs such that they can "plug in" a person and be with them every step of the way in their drama. Whereas Fe tends to only react inasmuch as the emotions are manifest, which often takes the form of mere momentary sympathy. they're feeling the person's emotions yes, but only on the most superficial level. Fi may keep it inside but they experience the other person's issue comprehensively, like the iceberg under the surface, they account for it. Thus you could easily say anything a Fe valuer says in response to another person's ethical dilemma is a mere sympathetic expression meant to slap a band aid on, because they never really tapped the full depth of the individual and their ethics.

    but that would be unfair, because all types can be both empathetic/sympathetic. and this idea of who "the most" is is kind of juvenile, like its some kind of competition. its like arguing which thinking type is "the most" logical. its funny because asinine disputes of that kind usually come out to LII or LSI, which privileges the introverted judgement, which is kind of inconsistent with the idea of Fe being "the most" empathetic (as a stand in for ethical, because lets be real, that is whats going on here). lets say it isn't inconsistent: what is the result? oh that beta (or perhaps alpha) is "the most" logical and ethical.. I'm guessing if we had the same discussion they'd also be the most intuitive too. the point is this entire discussion is not about what's real its about who's on top and how can we spin that, which is precisely unethical to the extent it is self aggrandizing and illogical to the extent the reasoning is motivated

    also lol at beta claiming Dostoevsky

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    High fi presupposes high fe and vice versa so it seems meaningless to determine which has better empathy unless we're assuming that two quadras don't value empathy lol...

    I think this falls outside the scope of type anyway because I'm an ethical subtype ethical and I'm not extraordinarily empathetic (I mean, I'm not an asshole scrooge but I wouldn't include empathy as among my notable attributes in spite of having base fi and strong Fe)

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    Empathy is related to emotional intelligence which anyone can improve on if they really want to. You can't blame socionics type for being a dick. Even if it is closely related to Fe and Fi, everyone has both and can strengthen it but I think many factors influence and genetics play a big part. If you have the ability to feel then you can cultivate empathy. Some people have problems that go beyond soconics that affect their ability to empathize.

    I didn't think my LSI mom had much empathy until I observed her around animals, birds and children. I guess because she can look like she is scowling even while interacting with such creatures. I started paying attention to her when she was alone with them and didn't think people were watching. She would feed my sister's dog off a plate with a fork. She always seemed to want someone to get the dog away from her but when the dog showed her affection and wouldn't leave her alone, she was a sucker for it and all of a sudden seemed to exhibit a lot of care and compassion, maybe even love for it.

    When the dog was not feeling well and got very sick she kind of broke down and cried, when none of us did. When people die my mom seems to take it much harder than all the NFs in the family but I think it is because she is not dealing in these emotional spheres most of the time. I feel bad that I thought she had 0 empathy but some stories from her childhood backed up that perception. Like when she burned my uncle with a hot poker or would chase him up a tree and throw rocks at him. My uncle is EII so I think he must have been terrified but for some reason still had her back. They are best friends now even if they don't talk as much. Maturity changes a lot.

    My bio-dad EIE turn out to be very empathic and sympathetic to his fellow human beings which I didn't know either. From stories I heard I thought the opposite. I kind of thought he was the worlds biggest idiot and a jerk, but apparently I was mislead. At first I thought I inherited any empathy genes from his side of the family but in reality my genes come from both of them.

    When @squark told me she had the same SNP as me I looked into the studies a bit more to see what genes they had linked to empathy. I do not think it is a socionics thing, fundamentally, but how it is expressed may be. At first sorting it was overwhelming since different studies are done on different genes so I had to take into consideration the types of studies done and how the different SNPs work together and give a bigger picture. For example I do not have the double allele of the SNP connected to the personal distress and empathy for fantasy characters like some people. I do feel moved by movies and novels but it seems some people can be carried away by them. This happened to my ESI aunt several times.


    The Genetics of Empathy

    June 6, 2017 By 23andMe under 23andMe Research
    In a first-of-its kind study looking at empathy, researchers have found strong evidence that the ability to read and understand emotions in others simply by looking into their eyes is influenced by our genes.

    Published in the journal of Molecular Psychiatry, the study was led by a team of scientists at theAutism Research Centre at the University of Cambridge, who combined genetic data from 23andMe with results from a cognitive empathy test developed by the university almost two decades ago called “Reading the Mind in the Eyes.”


    The researchers found evidence that this important human ability to read, understand and respond to emotions in others — vital for social interactions — is indeed influenced by genetics, and that women were much more adept at discerning emotions than men. The researchers even found a specific genetic variant that influenced that ability in women, an association not found in the opposite sex. In addition, the study found that higher empathy scores were also associated with higher risk for anorexia, more years in school, and openness to new experiences.
    The research adds to ongoing studies on the connections between empathy and autism, specifically the ability to infer emotions in others or “cognitive empathy.”“This is an important step forward for the field of social neuroscience and adds one more piece to the puzzle of what may cause variation in cognitive empathy,” said Warrier.

    All of this will help point researchers toward a better understanding of the biological underpinnings for empathy, as well as the phenotypes associated with higher empathy scores. For this study, the researchers used data from more than 89,000 23andMe customers who consented to research. A smaller cohort of about 1,500 people from the The Queensland Institute of Medical Research’s (QIMR), Brisbane Longitudinal Twin Study was also used for this research.


    The genetic variant associated with empathy in women is near the gene LRRN1 on chromosome 3, which is highly active in a part of the human brain called the striatum. Brain scans indicate that this portion of the brain may play a role in cognition empathy, but more study is needed to understand this potential connection.

    Warrier worked on this study with Professor Simon Baron-Cohen, director of the Autism Research Centre at the University. Also working on this research was Professor Thomas Bourgeron, at the University Paris Diderot and the Institut Pasteur.

    “We are excited by this new discovery, and are now testing if the results replicate, and exploring precisely what these genetic variants do in the brain, to give rise to individual differences in cognitive empathy,” said Professor Baron-Cohen.

    While the study offers important insight into genetic influences on empathy, there are other important influences that go beyond biology.
    “We should not lose sight of other important social factors such as early upbringing and postnatal experience,” said Professor Bourgeron.

    https://blog.23andme.com/23andme-res...cs-of-empathy/


    Sciencey stuff for those inclined. I already had this prepared since I knew this was going to come up again soon. There are also a few more threads you can search that go into this more in depth in relation to socionics. One thread is pages long.




    Overview:

    rs53576 is found on chromosome 3 and linked to the gene OXTR. The major allele (G) is observed in 61% of the general population. The minor allele (A) is observed in 39%. Your genotype is GG, which is observed in 39% of all individuals reported.

    See below for more details.

    Mechanism:
    GG promotes the efficient functioning of the oxytocin system and enhances the effects of oxytocin supplementation. (R) The gene frequency varies by race: ~61% of Africans have it (in Africa), ~41% of Europeans (~30% of Finns)and ~10% of Asians. (R)


    The Minor "A" allele is associated with:


    • AA and AG individuals were judged to be less pro-social and displayed fewer nonverbal cues compared to GG people. The study suggested that the association between and prosociality was stronger for men, but also true for women. (R)
    • GG are better at accurately reading the emotions of others by observing their faces. (R) compared to AA or AG. GG was more mellow and more attuned to other people than were the AA or AG.(R)
    • In response to an interview, GG or AG had significantly lower cortisol responses to stress when they had social support. There were no differences in cortisol levels in subjects with the AA genotype receiving or not receiving social support. The AA genotype tended to have higher levels of cortisol throughout the session than G carriers (no differences between the genotypes were observed at baseline). (R)
    • GG was less empathetic to pain experienced by racial 'out group' vs racial 'in group' members (Asians vs Whites). However, AA experienced more pleasure from pain to racial out-groups. (R)
    • So GG cares less about other races or who they view as 'other' (including competitions), but AA experiences more schadenfreude, which is pleasure at out-group pain or downfall.(R)



    The Major "G" allele is associated with:


    • GG have a more positive 'affect' or disposition.(R) AA and AG individuals were judged to be less pro-social and displayed fewer nonverbal cues î head nods and smiles î compared to GG people. The study suggested that the association between and prosociality was stronger for men, but also true for women. (R)
    • GG are more optimistic.(R)
    • GG are more empathetic. (R)
    • GG handle stress better.(R)
    • GG are better at accurately reading the emotions of others by observing their faces. (R) compared to AA or AG.
    • GG are less likely to startle when blasted by a loud noise, or to become stressed at the prospect of such a noise.(R)
    • GG was more mellow and more attuned to other people than were the AA or AG.(R)
    • GG have a higher Verbal IQ.(R)
    • GG feel less lonely(R)
    • GG was less likely to seek support from their peers.(R)
    • GG employ more sensitive parenting techniques.(R)
    • GG have lower rates of autism.(R)
    • GG have less difficulty hearing and understanding in noisy environments.(R)
    • In response to an interview, GG or AG had significantly lower cortisol responses to stress when they had social support. There were no differences in cortisol levels in subjects with the AA genotype receiving or not receiving social support. The AA genotype tended to have higher levels of cortisol throughout the session than G carriers (no differences between the genotypes were observed at baseline). (R)
    • GG have more gray matter volume in the hypothalamus and greater hypothalamus volume and more activation in the amygdala. (R)
    • GG are less predisposed to major depression. (R)
    • GG take social rejection worse than others. GG had higher blood pressure and cortisol levels the following rejection, effects not apparent among A carriers. (R)
    • GG was less empathetic to pain experienced by racial 'out group' vs racial 'in group' members (Asians vs Whites). However, AA experienced more pleasure from pain to racial out-groups. (R)
    • So GG cares less about other races or who they view as 'other' (including competitions), but AA experiences more schadenfreude, which is pleasure at out-group pain or downfall.(R)



    Found Results for: empathy (9)

    All
    OXTR

    Description:Read/FIX: All You Need to Know About Oxytocin And Oxytocin Receptor SNPs.

    About Oxytocin

    Oxytocin plays an important role in social behavior and wound healing. (R)
    Oxytocin is thought to decrease inflammation by decreasing certain cytokines. Thus, the increased release of oxytocin following positive social interactions has the potential to improve wound healing. (R)
    Oxytocin is important for female sexual interest in males. In mice, a lack of oxytocin (receptor) in female mice resulted in a loss of social interest in male mice specifically d...


    Fix simple:

    Falling in love, having sex/sexual stimulation, nursing and having positive social encounters all increase oxytocin. (R) Soothing music can also increase oxytocin (R). Both humans and dog oxytocin levels in the blood rose after five to 24 minutes of a petting session (R).

    Fix advanced:


    • Injaculation - oxytocin is found in semen and orgasms increase oxytocin release.
    • MDMA (ecstasy) increases the feelings of love, empathy, and connection to others by stimulating oxytocin activity primarily via activation of serotonin 5-HT1A receptors (future post on this). (R)



    callous-unemotional behaviour

    Definition: bavioural manifestation including low levels of empathy, absence of guilt and emotional unresponsiveness

    rs1042778
    TG
    = 40%


    Genes: OXTR

    SNP description:The Minor "T" allele is associated with:

    • Less empathy for the partner in romantic relationships (TT) (R).
    • Decreased generosity and kindness (R).
    • Decrease in social behavior (R).



    The Major "G" allele is associated with:

    • Increased oxytocin levels in the body (R).
    • Increased kindness and generosity. In a game that tested how generous people are, TT gave on average 18.3 shekels to the other, while GG or GT gave on average 25 shekels to the other. (R)
    • Increased social behavior.



    rs237887
    AA
    = 38%


    Genes: OXTR

    SNP description: G is social allele (R), but the effects are mixed for this. AG and AA (both 18.1) had the highest empathy in "perspective taking" (tendency of placing yourself in the position of others) compared to GG (16.0)(R) GG had the highest level of "personal distress" empathy (16.8)(subjective feelings when observing the anguish and pain endured by others) compared to AA (15.3) and AG (14.4)(R) GG had highest "Fantasy" empathy (18.5) (the extent to which people can immerse themselves in the conditions of the fictitious characters' feelings and actions) compared to both AA and AG (15.1). Fanta...

    rs13316193
    CT
    = 41%


    Genes: OXTR

    SNP description:The Major "T" allele is associated with:

    • Decreased levels of oxytocin in the brain (TT) (R).
    • Increased risk of depressive moods (TT) (R).
    • Increased risk of Autism (TT) (R).
    • Decrease in empathy toward a partner in a romantic relationship (TT) (R).
    • Less social behavior (TT) (R)
    • Less generosity and kindness (TT) (R)
    • CT in females exhibits the most empathy (R).



    rs2268491
    CC
    = 63%


    Genes: OXTR

    SNP description:The Minor "T" allele is associated with:

    • CT had the highest level of empathy (IRI=68.7), followed by TT (65.8) and then CC (60.7) (R).
    • The same was true for "cognitive empathy", which is simply knowing how the other person feels and what they might be thinking (R).



    rs2254298
    GG
    = 64%


    Genes: OXTR

    SNP description:The Minor "A" allele is associated with:

    • AG is the most empathetic version (IRI=70.8), while GG and AA were equal in total empathy (~65.4).
    • In cognitive empathy (putting yourself in someone else's situation), AG (35.9) was the highest followed by GG (34.2) and AA (32.8) (R).
    • Decreased risk of autism
    • Decreased risk of depression and separation anxiety.
    • Amygdala volume increase in both White and Asian populations (R).


    The Major "G" allele is associated with:

    • A lesser empathic concern to their partner's distress in romantic relationships (GG...



    rs4686302
    CC
    = 74%


    Genes: OXTR

    SNP description: For males, CC is the most empathetic, especially with emotional empathy.... and CT the least. For females, CT and TT are the most empathetic(R).

    rs237897
    GG
    = 39%


    Genes: OXTR

    SNP description:The Minor "A" allele is associated with:


    • This gene is significant only in males with regard to empathy/kindness (dictator game and social value orientation). (R) It doesn't specify which alleles, but the minor allele is A, which most often is the "risk" allele. So AA might indicate less empathy is males.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    Quote Originally Posted by lump View Post
    High fi presupposes high fe and vice versa so it seems meaningless to determine which has better empathy unless we're assuming that two quadras don't value empathy lol...

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    Quote Originally Posted by lump View Post
    High fi presupposes high fe and vice versa so it seems meaningless to determine which has better empathy unless we're assuming that two quadras don't value empathy lol...
    Then for example you can think of the ones that have it has their HA: Fe HA - SLE and ILE, and Fi HA - SLI and ILI. How empathetic/sympathetic are those?


    I think this falls outside the scope of type anyway because I'm an ethical subtype ethical and I'm not extraordinarily empathetic (I mean, I'm not an asshole scrooge but I wouldn't include empathy as among my notable attributes in spite of having base fi and strong Fe)
    That's why I said that especifically delta Fi is empathy. I've noticed that about ESI's. It seems for both empathy and sympathy ideally you need intuition.

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    I made this thread just to know if it's related to Fe or Fi or both of them together (other functions are out of the question for me) if someone suggest it's out of socionics's realm, then they should show me why it's exactly not functions related or type related.
    I don't think it's like saying who's the most logical, its equal would be "who is the most emotional from ethical types" I guess? Which is wrong.

    Chae's opinion rings true for me personally, based on my experience with some types. So what made me think it's related are my observations of people. Also the descriptions, in ESE/EIE descriptions they talk more about their ability to feel what others feel. While in ESI/EII descriptions it's more about sympathy or compassion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy View Post
    @Delilah I'm not sure but I think Dostoyevsky is beta NF and he is typed EII... this confuses me and I still don't know the type EII well to call them "The Empath".
    If it was type related (which I think is more likely) then I lean more towards what @Chae said about Empathy (Fe) and Sympathy (Fi), if what she said is true then the types who should be called the empath are ESE and EIE.
    But all ethical types have Fe, so is it an ethical type quality?
    I really can't imagine LSI (or any logical type) being more empathetic than an EIE (or any ethical type).
    I was talking about how "The Empath" has been used as a short hand for EII by several socionists; It's attached to the type descriptions of EII that these socionists use; I don't see Dostoyekvsky as very relevant regarding what i'm talking about, but the 'consensus' on him was EII last i bothered looking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy View Post
    I made this thread just to know if it's related to Fe or Fi or both of them together (other functions are out of the question for me) if someone suggest it's out of socionics's realm, then they should show me why it's exactly not functions related or type related.
    I don't think it's like saying who's the most logical, its equal would be "who is the most emotional from ethical types" I guess? Which is wrong.

    Chae's opinion rings true for me personally, based on my experience with some types. So what made me think it's related are my observations of people. Also the descriptions, in ESE/EIE descriptions they talk more about their ability to feel what others feel. While in ESI/EII descriptions it's more about sympathy or compassion.
    you're in luck, a lot of people think empathy amounts to Fe because its "feeling what other people feel"

    my point was that's shallow

    also your shallowness is not cause for retyping Dostoevsky, if anything it might make you want to rethink your conception of empathy, not double down on it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    I was talking about how "The Empath" has been used as a short hand for EII by several socionists; It's attached to the type descriptions of EII that these socionists use; I don't see Dostoyekvsky as very relevant regarding what i'm talking about, but the 'consensus' on him was EII last i bothered looking.
    oh sorry for the confusion, what I meant is that he is an example of EIIs, for me it is like saying EIIs are "The Empath".

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    There are two parts to empathy, recognizing others emotions and connecting with them. Fe covers the former, Fi covers the latter.
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

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    @Aylen Thanks a lot! That was informative. I will probably research it more. I liked the idea that what's related to socionics may be how it's expressed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy View Post
    @Aylen Thanks a lot! That was informative. I will probably research it more. I liked the idea that what's related to socionics may be how it's expressed.
    You're welcome. Sometimes I write out a post but just before I submit I realize it is not the right situation and I save it for later. When I saw your post I had a feeling it was the right time for it and someone might actually use the information. I know a lot of people skip over the type of information that is in spoiler because there are a lot of terms they are unfamiliar with. Hope it is useful as you research more. It was very enlightening to me.

    I also created a similar post about Fe/Fi and empathy, maybe two or three years ago. It kind of sparked my interest to look into it more.

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    People need to differentiate empathy and compassion:

    Empathy is, at its simplest, awareness of the feelings and emotions of other people. It is a key element of Emotional Intelligence, the link between self and others, because it is how we as individuals understand what others are experiencing as if we were feeling it ourselves.
    If someone shows kindness, caring, and a willingness to help others, they're showing compassion.
    Empathy is intuitively feeling what someone else is feeling. To feel compassion, you don't necessarily need to feel empathy, but there needs to be an understanding that what theyre going through is difficult, and that brings feelings of wanting to help, wishing to make it better. One can feel empathy without compassion, too.

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    lets go in a big circle

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    @Aylen These are all of mine for oxtr:


    rs53576 GG 39%
    rs1042778 TG 40%
    rs237887 AA 38%
    rs13316193 CT 41%
    rs2268491 CC 63%
    rs2254298 GG 64%
    rs4686302 CC 74%
    rs2268494 AT 13%
    rs237897 AG 41%


    I think it's interesting also to compare what they suggest with the empathy test that @wasp posted HERE

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavos View Post
    Then for example you can think of the ones that have it has their HA: Fe HA - SLE and ILE, and Fi HA - SLI and ILI. How empathetic/sympathetic are those?
    Like one of Aylen's post indicates perceived truth might be very different from reality...

    One has to separate actions and given image via interactions. This one includes all types.


    Socionics ethics refers to information elements. It does not tell what you are going to do with them.
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    Then there is this


    When you look at Bloom vs Baron-Cohen debate it becomes clear that Baron-Cohen thinks that his empathy is true empathy. Those who misuse it based on his views are not empathetic. We can certainly notice that he is being subjective with his claims. Does the world revolve around him? Is that empathy? Bloom is talking for ratonalization for actions? He think that empathy is best appicaple with small circle of people.


    Think about this: A rescue operation that takes huge sum of money while you could rescue more humans with same sum of money elsewhere. What is right action here?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    its generally frowned upon to associate intelligence with type, I don't see why it isn't the same with qualities like empathy.
    Jung associated both with type, so not doing so is pretty much against the foundation of the theory. Also, I almost wanted to ask "empathy like compassion or empathy like minor telepathy" since you never know with Jung, but Jung would definitely associate both with type anyways. Introverted intuition started as an attempt at a rationalist explanation of clairvoyance/telepathy/telekinesis, not the idea of daydreaming and being phantasmagorical. As far as rationalist explanations of clairvoyance/telepathy/telekinesis go, I think "it's an unconscious force causing people to act in ways where 'coincidental' things occur" is pretty terrible, but definitely enticing to people to are both rationalist and don't want to say their personal experiences of life are all meaningless, but also don't have any clue where to start with an explanation that isn't James Randi-esque (James Randi was a pedo anyways.)



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    I want to be trolly and say empathy doesn't exist, but what I already said about Fi/Te being more cognitive empathy & Fe/Ti being affective empathy and Justin Bieber having no empathy on my alt account was already good enough.

    either way, I don't like empathy because it's not logical- and often times the shadow side of empathy is pure coldness to others while pretending to be empathetic, or being empathetic in a half-ass way. I don't like when it people are 'empathetic' to others- but still ignore all the myriad of logical and rational reasons why the person turned out the way they did.

    Empathy makes people angry, compassion tends to take their anger away- even if they already are a sadistic asshole. An empathetic str8 female will be totally abused and gaslighted by their str8 male abusive boyfriend ((and will also be an abuser themselves)), whereas a compassionate str8 female really will 'change him for the better.' So empathy kinda sucks, and it's kind of a shadow excuse to hurt ppl and make them into victims while saying they are playing a victim, but really ur turning them into a victim by remaining a perpetrator because u have a fake kind of empathy that u use the veil of society to easily manipulate with. Yes, I'm talking to you, Regina Hurt.

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    from a purely theoretical standpoint, IEI have 3D valued creative Fe and 4D Fi which is unvalued but very strong, it's the other way around for SEE. Fe in the end gives people what it thinks they want to hear while Fi goes deeper internally. Fe presents itself in different ways depending on the environment while Fi is about always being the same regardless of situation and circumstances.
    the majority of people who browse this site are IEI. intuition of time is the function that is interested in the psychological state of human beings. don't waste >100 dollar on a nonsense typing interview. typology is a field dominated by INxx, especially IEI.

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