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[Aramas]

I don't think we disagree I just think the answer to this is no one. the highest level socionists including ausra disagree on the typing of the people the types themselves are named after

which isn't to say typing is impossible, just that you need to know someone and socionics well to accurately type someone, and that is almost always lacking in one way or the other. true people can speculate and maybe they get it right, but even if they're right, its not going to convince anyone because its just subject to disagreements by as many people who can do the same thing and come out with a different answer. in other words, their typing right or wrong is always a private piece of information and belief, so its like why bother? maybe cause its fun, fair enough but at the same time its sort of meaningless except as an exercise in entertainment

It's not really possible to prove anything about Socionics. It's not falsifiable at all. That said, I don't think it's necessary to know someone as well as you say one needs to know someone to be able to type them. I think we all see something there, but we tend to disagree simply because we are looking at something that is by nature difficult to perceive. But there are still some who manage to do it and do it well.

I don't really see someone's type as a private thing, because it's apparent and shows itself regardless of whether or not someone wants it to do so. If someone is wearing a shirt and walking down the street, is the color of it somehow private? How did you come up with that?

You're right that you can't really convince anyone. You really have to get people to see the way you see. Seeing is believing. And you're right, it is fun. But I don't think I'd characterize Socionics as meaningless except for entertainment. For me, it's something more fundamental to the psyche and a part of objective reality, possibly even part of the nature of reality itself. I don't really know for sure, and I could be entirely wrong, but that's what I think.

[Number 9 large]

alphas are 140+ iq nerds who will some day find the cure for cancer and invent many other great things. untill then they need someone to daily change their diapers and breastfeed their mouths, cuz they havent figured out yet how to control their weewee muscles and everyone needs to drink right? this is where the alpha sf comes in, who will gladly help the alpha NT, because they are closet pedophiles and this is the closest they can legally get to having sex with a real child.

betas are sadistic bikergang members with at least 6 murders on record who play rape games with (or actually rape) basement dweller emo poetrywriting overly melancholic and dramatic masochists who show early signs of the onset of schizophrenia, have ptsd and probably 5 more mental disorders you may or may not have heard of @Olimpia am i doin this right

gammas are ugly business nerds whose only reason for having such hot wives is having tons of money. thats it really. welcome to gamma.
enjoy your stay, but only if you are hot or have money

deltas are independent feminists who dont need no man to take care of them in the traditional husband-and-wife-way. the other half are men who want to take care of a wife in the traditional husband-and-wife way. whatever you do, dont be male, american, and part of this quadra at the same time.
or just dont be delta ST, cuz even your duals hate you

choose your destiny

[Bertrand]

But I don't think I'd characterize Socionics as meaningless except for entertainment. For me, it's something more fundamental to the psyche and a part of objective reality, possibly even part of the nature of reality itself. I don't really know for sure, and I could be entirely wrong, but that's what I think.

im not saying socionics is meaningless im saying people popping out types for other people is meaningless, especially when they don't actually know those people or know socionics. at the same time its meaningful in some private sense, because inasmuch as it represents something fixed in their mind that they believe it is real, and inasmuch as its entertaining it also has a non-zero value

this is why its so stupid to type yourself or others based on perceived status, because it doesn't accomplish anything and leads one away from the internal value that typing someone can have which is to say unless its use is purely a imaginary heirarchy builder, you cheat yourself out of the insight building accurate ITR could have. which is why I think it appears that people "know" socionics and yet never seem to get the real lesson of socionics. its this weird disjunction between assurance in typing of others and a total failure to truly understand others. and its very conspicuous--its like once you see the real value in socionics its very apparent when someone is not tapped into it and the fact they're full of confidence in their typing just makes it all the more absurd... its like presumably once you know your type and others type, and know how so many things are a mirage, then you go around getting into the exact same disputes as someone who doesnt know socionics at all, its like how can that person say at the same time they have the ability to type others. it all just becomes meaningless at that point, if all that is true

[Aramas]

im not saying socionics is meaningless im saying people popping out types for other people is meaningless, especially when they don't actually know those people or know socionics. at the same time its meaningful in some private sense, because inasmuch as it represents something fixed in their mind that they believe it is real, and inasmuch as its entertaining it also has a non-zero value

this is why its so stupid to type yourself or others based on perceived status, because it doesn't accomplish anything and leads one away from the internal value that typing someone can have which is to say unless its use is purely a imaginary heirarchy builder, you cheat yourself out of the insight building accurate ITR could have. which is why I think it appears that people "know" socionics and yet never seem to get the real lesson of socionics. its this weird disjunction between assurance in typing of others and a total failure to truly understand others. and its very conspicuous--its like once you see the real value in socionics its very apparent when someone is not tapped into it and the fact they're full of confidence in their typing just makes it all the more absurd... its like presumably once you know your type and others type, and know how so many things are a mirage, then you go around getting into the exact same disputes as someone who doesnt know socionics at all, its like how can that person say at the same time they have the ability to type others. it all just becomes meaningless at that point, if all that is true

Everything is meaningless Bertrand. Noting whether or not something is meaningful or meaningless is therefore also meaningless.

Socionics doesn't have to be a self-help system. I think you're implying that. There is no objective "lesson" to Socionics. It's not a religion or a spiritual guide.

[Bertrand]

im just saying if you're pounding nails with an iphone you missed the point and maybe don't understand as much as you claim to. if the answer is "its fun" then more power to you, but still

if the answer to that is "there is no objective usage to this iphone" well, you got me there, and that's precisely why these exercises in typing can be futile, because people just talk past eachother and don't even know what they're doing anyway. it sort of becomes where if you reserve the right to be stupid, you may in fact value empty typings but it also sort of reinforces how dumb the whole thing is and reduces it all to a mere exercise in entertainment. but to say socionics is on the level of fruit ninja or something is to sell yourself short and to assign equivalent value to the two applications is brainless, then to argue with people with all that in mind just makes a person now an active waste of other people's time. its like if you really believe that and then with the same breath challenge anyone on anything its in total bad faith

people can reduce out all the useful aspects of socionics if they want but it doesn't oblige others to see it the same way so the "its not objective theory" cuts both ways, it just means you can ignore them and vice versa, the question becomes is that a better or worse outcome for either of the parties? to say theyre equal is true meaninglessness

[Aramas]

im just saying if you're pounding nails with an iphone you missed the point and maybe don't understand as much as you claim to. if the answer is "its fun" then more power to you, but still

if the answer is "there is no objective usage to this iphone" I concede that

I don't own an iPhone, so I can't pound nails with one. Those are expensive anyway.

And yes, Socionics has no objective use.

[Aramas]

im just saying if you're pounding nails with an iphone you missed the point and maybe don't understand as much as you claim to. if the answer is "its fun" then more power to you, but still

if the answer to that is "there is no objective usage to this iphone" well, you got me there, and that's precisely why these exercises in typing can be futile, because people just talk past eachother and don't even know what they're doing anyway. it sort of becomes where if you reserve the right to be stupid, you may in fact value empty typings but it also sort of reinforces how dumb the whole thing is and reduces it all to a mere exercise in entertainment. but to say socionics is on the level of fruit ninja or something is to sell yourself short and to assign equivalent value to the two applications is brainless, then to argue with people with all that in mind just makes a person now an active waste of other people's time. its like if you really believe that and then with the same breath challenge anyone on anything its in total bad faith

Why do you get so upset about all this though?

[Olimpia]

alphas are 140+ iq nerds who will some day find the cure for cancer and invent many other great things. untill then they need someone to daily change their diapers and breastfeed their mouths, cuz they havent figured out yet how to control their weewee muscles and everyone needs to drink right? this is where the alpha sf comes in, who will gladly help the alpha NT, because they are closet pedophiles and this is the closest they can legally get to having sex with a real child.

betas are sadistic bikergang members with at least 6 murders on record who play rape games with (or actually rape) basement dweller emo poetrywriting overly melancholic and dramatic masochists who show early signs of the onset of schizophrenia, have ptsd and probably 5 more mental disorders you may or may not have heard of @Olimpia am i doin this right

gammas are ugly business nerds whose only reason for having such hot wives is having tons of money. thats it really. welcome to gamma.
enjoy your stay, but only if you are hot or have money

deltas are independent feminists who dont need no man to take care of them in the traditional husband-and-wife-way. the other half are men who want to take care of a wife in the traditional husband-and-wife way. whatever you do, dont be male, american, and part of this quadra at the same time.
or just dont be delta ST, cuz even your duals hate you

choose your destiny

Hahahaha

I think you got the gist of it.

I've written a more... harmless version here, haha.

[Retsu77]

Why do you get so upset about all this though?

Sigh. He gets upset over everything. It's quite something.

[Bertrand]

[Number 9 large]

Sigh. He gets upset over everything. It's quite something.

@Bertrand rekt

[ashlesha]

Here I see deep despair, mixed with longing. and maybe you're a little bit hungry also. For waffles

[Bertrand]

so that's what that feeling is!

[Stellafera]

alphas are 140+ iq nerds who will some day find the cure for cancer and invent many other great things. untill then they need someone to daily change their diapers and breastfeed their mouths, cuz they havent figured out yet how to control their weewee muscles and everyone needs to drink right? this is where the alpha sf comes in, who will gladly help the alpha NT, because they are closet pedophiles and this is the closest they can legally get to having sex with a real child.

betas are sadistic bikergang members with at least 6 murders on record who play rape games with (or actually rape) basement dweller emo poetrywriting overly melancholic and dramatic masochists who show early signs of the onset of schizophrenia, have ptsd and probably 5 more mental disorders you may or may not have heard of @Olimpia am i doin this right

gammas are ugly business nerds whose only reason for having such hot wives is having tons of money. thats it really. welcome to gamma.
enjoy your stay, but only if you are hot or have money

deltas are independent feminists who dont need no man to take care of them in the traditional husband-and-wife-way. the other half are men who want to take care of a wife in the traditional husband-and-wife way. whatever you do, dont be male, american, and part of this quadra at the same time.
or just dont be delta ST, cuz even your duals hate you

choose your destiny

now I wanna be delta ST

[Number 9 large]

Here I see deep despair, mixed with longing. and maybe you're a little bit hungry also. For waffles

lungs SEI confirmed, bertrand ILE confirmed, now kiss

[Number 9 large]

now I wanna be delta ST

no you dont.

[Stellafera]

no you dont.

sorry it's my NF masochism complex again

[Number 9 large]

sorry it's my NF masochism complex again

was about to say haha

[Olimpia]

lungs SEI confirmed, bertrand ILE confirmed, now kiss

[Skepsis]

Here I see deep despair, mixed with longing. and maybe you're a little bit hungry also. For waffles

[Tallmo]

I read a book by Hemingway this past summer and my impression was SLE, 4D Se & Te.

The idea that sensors can't be writers, imo, is complete BS

Could you please suggest some well-known contemporary writers who are sensors. I'd like to look into this. I can also write and i've gotten positive feedback in the past but to do it professionally is a different thing.

[The Reality Denialist]

Hemingway's lifestyle that includes bull runs and other risky activities sounds anthithesis of EII.

[The Exception]

In Socionics circles, Delta types tend to be given the highest amount of respect. Alphas and Betas get the least. Especially alphas.

In real life, I think it's kind of the same way. Gammas get some respect, but not as much as deltas, because they are often not quite as savvy socially and tend to use a hammer where a scalpel is necessary.

You think? ;p I think beta and gamma kind of get the best wrap. And within those probably LSI, EIE (the legendary type noone knows) and SEE are just the big sweetheart.

to me it seems like:
beta & gamma gets it better because se/ni is seen as like, intense, deep, exciting, badass, whatever. and ne/si is perceived as childish and boring.
of beta/gamma, esi and sle get it the worst for being prissy naggers and violent knuckledraggers, respectively.
of alpha/delta, iee and sli get it okay for being cool, laid-back hippies.
alpha just gets the short end of the stick.

I see the Ni/Se valuing quadras as being more polarizing. Thus either strongly liked or strongly disliked. Particularly with beta. The exception to this seems to be IEI, which seems to be mostly liked by people.

Whereas the Si/Ne valuing quadras are less polarizing. More just there, less blatantly annoying but also less admired or respected perhaps. Not so much strongly liked or disliked. Deltas are unfairly seen as kind of boring, alphas as kind of goofy and weird. I suppose ESE and LSE might be exceptions, it seems like they get more dislike among the alphas and deltas. It's kind of analogous to ESFJ/ESTJ getting an undue amount of dislike in the MBTI community. IEE seems to be looked on more positively among deltas. Seems like the other alphas and deltas are more neutral.

LII could go either way. Seen as really intelligent by some but to others grossly impractical and socially awkward. I'm not sure LII is really 'hated' though in a way sometimes attributed to other types. Maybe it's our Se PoLR that makes us a bit less harmful and threatening.

[Bethanyclaire]

I was trying to figure out which type Hemingway was and this thread looked kinda interesting, if a bit silly

[Adam Strange]

Hemingway seemed like a Ti-user to me, and I'd say Se>Si for sure. I think he was SLE, but he sometimes drifted into ILE territory.

[EUDAEMONIUM]

ESIs get the worst stereotypes, the best is a little hard to figure out. I think EIIs skate by with the least amount of negative stereotypes.

[Bethanyclaire]

LSI and SEI seem to have a good reputation at work (I was really impressed by them challenging senior leadership when we went through a consultation process to change our contracts/ working conditions). Generally LSI seem like straight-forward people to me but then maybe they are a bit like SEI and will suddenly surprise you out of nowhere doing something out of character, making you lose trust in them. EII seem to have a good rep online, maybe in real life too, although I think they can go a bit unnoticed/ unappreciated. People seem to like having me, IEI, around but I wouldn't say I feel valued. IEEs seem to have a good reputation in real life too- they seem to have a lot of friends. SEE/ESE are the most popular. An LII colleague passed away recently and everyone seemed very sad, people had a huge amount of respet for her.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

hmm not sure. I know a woman (probably Delta) who had a squeaky clean reputation but in the Fi sense most people knew what she was really like interpersonally and knew she was nowhere near as good as her 'professional resume' said so to speak. Narcissists are good at manipulating external reputation crap (which I think is a lot of Te bs) at appearing 'good' but inside they are not really anything like that at all and people know it- and you don't really have to have 4D Ni to 'know it' either. I think people often respect the inherent innocentness in Alpha SF types but their 2D/1D Te can make it hard to see at times.

as a Beta my reputation probably grows a lot when people find out I'm nowhere near as evil as they thought or more like- nowhere near as evil as they wanted me to be. =D They wanted/needed me to be Dahmer 2.0 to feel superior and was dissapointed in the real life version. And maybe a little relieved/admired that I'm not actually that bad of a person who knows. ((I'm not good either but who is? lol))

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

okay sorry its Fe too of course. Manipulating how somebody sees you is a Te/Fe game fo sure.

[youfloweryourfeast]

I would say LSIs tend to be able to keep up a good rep espcially in high places. ILEs are less likely to because they tend to do more strange things with no filter.