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    Default Cousin Marriage in the Middle East

    Last edited by Raver; 11-08-2017 at 08:28 PM.
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    I don't want to be disrespectful but I think the authors are on the wrong way when they think that inbreeding could be cause for a complex issue like Islamic terrorism. The effects of "Muslim Inbreeding" didn't become a problem since 2001.
    Weapons from the west, corruption, destabilized political systems, disregard of state sovereignty, bombing the shit out of non-Christian countries and destroying their economy in the process are major contributing factors to extremist Islamic terrorism. The west is fighting illegal wars on foreign land. Now everyone is like "oh no, how could that happen? Why do they hate us? Must be because they are low-iq muslims!"

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    Islamic societies are sort of a religious equivalent of communist societies. People live as surfs in extreme obedience under the caliphate. They seem diametrically opposed to the Jews which in many ways naturally affiliate with capitalism.
    In that kind of society people do not marry for the same reasons Westerners do.. the whole social hierarchy is based around honor instead of earning power. Marriage is almost more like an arrangement... You literally buy the woman.
    It's more about duty, it's a duty to stay loyal to your spouse.

    Anyway, there is a point ...
    That kind of heavy top down control and strict obedience and honor based mating is overly restrictive and it leads to incest. You don't have many options... It's not like you can go out and make a bunch of money and whore onto someone and vuala you are in a new relationship. So I think cousin marriage is probably a symptom of the whole way of thinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat1776 View Post
    Islamic societies are sort of a religious equivalent of communist societies.
    Jewish Kibbutz is better example.
    Today Mahometan societies are practically too conservative, too much of strict hierarchy. After late middle ages they somehow missed the potential for peaceful and non-extensive development, - no humanitarian, no material. They like ideologically frozen or overestimate own military aspect, too much accented on external forms and lost the essence of own ideas. Instead of further personal and social growth, they've got stagnation and spiritual degradation. They've started as fight for interests of most people but ended as irrational ultra-conservators.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    US vs. Middle-East is a resource war, not an ideology war.
    Sure the West needs them supressed because of material resources, but it's only part of what is happening. Mahometanism, as Abrahamic religion, is humanistic in its base. While the West has taken anti-humanistic individualistic course, what is Satanism.
    The West even helps radical Mahometanism (its military, not humanistic side) spread on other territories to ruin their people too.
    Last edited by Sol; 11-16-2017 at 10:45 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmic Teapot View Post
    I don't want to be disrespectful but I think the authors are on the wrong way when they think that inbreeding could be cause for a complex issue like Islamic terrorism. The effects of "Muslim Inbreeding" didn't become a problem since 2001.
    Weapons from the west, corruption, destabilized political systems, disregard of state sovereignty, bombing the shit out of non-Christian countries and destroying their economy in the process are major contributing factors to extremist Islamic terrorism. The west is fighting illegal wars on foreign land. Now everyone is like "oh no, how could that happen? Why do they hate us? Must be because they are low-iq muslims!"
    ^Basically this. Cousin marriage is prevalent in many societies, for example Senegal where I was living in West Africa, which has no issue with terrorism. Maybe you should be less concerned about cousin marriage and more concerned about the almost complete breakdown of the family structure in Western societies like America.

    Also maybe you shouldn't get your information from trash websites, just a thought.
    Last edited by Exodus; 11-08-2017 at 01:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    ^Basically this. Cousin marriage is prevalent in many societies, for example Senegal where I was living in West Africa, which has no issue with terrorism. Maybe you should be less concerned about cousin marriage and more concerned about the almost complete breakdown of the family structure in Western societies like America.

    Also maybe you shouldn't get your information from trash websites, just a thought.
    I am concerned about both to be honest: cousin marriage and the breakdown of family in America for different reasons.

    I know you are Muslim, but I assure you that my intention was not to offend or fully endorse the information in the articles I posted, but rather to foster discussion about this issue for or against.

    I know it is not as simple as incest = terrorism obviously, but the purpose of this thread is pondering the possibility that perhaps it is one contributing factor in a complex problem instead.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmic Teapot View Post
    I don't want to be disrespectful but I think the authors are on the wrong way when they think that inbreeding could be cause for a complex issue like Islamic terrorism. The effects of "Muslim Inbreeding" didn't become a problem since 2001.
    Weapons from the west, corruption, destabilized political systems, disregard of state sovereignty, bombing the shit out of non-Christian countries and destroying their economy in the process are major contributing factors to extremist Islamic terrorism. The west is fighting illegal wars on foreign land. Now everyone is like "oh no, how could that happen? Why do they hate us? Must be because they are low-iq muslims!"
    Don't dick around. It's not weapons from the West. It's weapons from the United States. America ruined the Middle East.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    Don't dick around. It's not weapons from the West. It's weapons from the United States. America ruined the Middle East.
    Looks like China has been taking over the weapons markets in the Middle East, or at least they want their cut in the pie and the ME countries have been "handsomely rewarding" them for their deals.

    Chinese drone factory in Saudi Arabia first in Middle East Deal part of $65b package
    Providing Arms: China and the Middle East
    President Xi presented China as a viable new alternative
    Chinese UAS manufacturers have been rewarded handsomely with major contracts from several Middle East and Central Asian governments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    what's the stated reasons for marrying cousins in the first place? just curious, not a loaded question (I don't think)
    Keeping the wealth in your near family would seem to be one of those reasons. They may be risking higher chances of birth defects, but having more resources remaining also improves the wellbeing the healthy kids.

    "Cousin marriage normally results in a reduced bride price. Patai states that bride price to a cousin is usually about half as high as to a nonrelative. Due to the poverty of many families this outlay often requires exceptional effort, and especially because the decision traditionally is in the hands of the groom's father, these considerations may weigh heavily on the outcome. The bride's family moreover is expected to spend much of the bride price on the bride herself, so there is a reduced incentive to gain a higher price by avoiding cousin marriage."

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    The family of the Iraqi guy I know has all these complicated rules about when you can marry a cousin to avoid birth defects, but those rules don't seem to be part of Islamic law so maybe it's just them. I mean, I guess there are ways to occasionally marry cousins and get away with it, and I'm sure reasonably intelligent people (with different values, granted) can figure it out.

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    what's the stated reasons for marrying cousins in the first place? just curious, not a loaded question (I don't think)

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    I never asked and Im not really the person to explain since Im just speaking of one family that I'm vaguely associated with (my friend's boyfriend). I guess at least in their circles they don't really date, though, it's more like they get introduced and then just decide, so that would really limit the circle of people available.

    @thehotelambush would probably know more.

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    Is this also why there are more mass shooters in Trump-voting states?

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    Is this also why there are more mass shooters in Trump-voting states?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    This would surely depend on the frequency of such marriages over time in a gene pool.

    A one-off event of consanguineous mating is unlikely to cause a rise in birth defects (even if between siblings). However problems will start to arise if this behavior continues beyond a couple of generations.

    Some Islamic countries (Pakistan in particular, though it's not in the Middle East) have a cultural tradition of marrying cousins off to each other, mainly to ensure that any property says in the family. I can only assume that some genetic disorders will have been "unmasked" and then spread throughout the population. We observe this effect in Ashkenazi Jews, as well.

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    I feel like some people have gotten the wrong impression of this thread thinking that I am insinuating that the problem of Islamic terrorism is due to specifically inbreeding. However, I should clarify that I think it is one possible factor out of many and nothing more. The purpose of this thread is to discuss if this is the case or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuivienen View Post
    This would surely depend on the frequency of such marriages over time in a gene pool.

    A one-off event of consanguineous mating is unlikely to cause a rise in birth defects (even if between siblings). However problems will start to arise if this behavior continues beyond a couple of generations.

    Some Islamic countries (Pakistan in particular, though it's not in the Middle East) have a cultural tradition of marrying cousins off to each other, mainly to ensure that any property says in the family. I can only assume that some genetic disorders will have been "unmasked" and then spread throughout the population. We observe this effect in Ashkenazi Jews, as well.
    Yeah, I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head here. A one off of a cousin marriage is mostly benign, it is only when it happens for consecutive generations that it becomes a problem. If someone's parents are cousins and all of their grandparents are not, not a big deal or if someone's grandparents are cousins, but their parents are not, also not a big deal.

    For instance, Einstein's and Darwin's parents were cousins and it is safe to say they were intelligent and sane. Then you get a worst case scenario of the most inbred person ever from generations of cousins marrying consecutively:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_II_of_Spain
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    US vs. Middle-East is a resource war, not an ideology war. This is common knowledge. Blaming this on genetics is political determinism, and determinists need to burn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    US vs. Middle-East is a resource war, not an ideology war. This is common knowledge. Blaming this on genetics is political determinism, and determinists need to burn.
    There is no doubt that a major factor of terrorism is the US meddling in the middle east, I am not going to deny that. I was just wondering if genetics played a minor role in this as well.
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    There's a saying in Italy

    "non c'è cosa più divina che farsi la cugina"

    there must be some truth to that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    There's a saying in Italy

    "non c'è cosa più divina che farsi la cugina"

    there must be some truth to that.
    In Finland: Mitä serkumpi sitä herkumpi... Translation: More cousin-like the person is more delicious he/she is.

    In past breeding between cousins was quite common here. Villages were remote and roads were bad. In fact I have heard from older already retired nurse that cousin marriages was serious issue in countryside. This is no longer the case here. It does not simply happen anymore.

    People were usually expecting that some of the offspring would be mentally retarded in some ways as default. This something that I heard from 60 year old who told that some people had time to understand that all the children from same family went to university. Well, parents came from different village and from different social class and were both quite bright. This is just an anecdote but...
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    I loathe all spirituality/religion/'good guy' isms. If you really want to do good in the world, shut the fuck up, leave everybody else alone- and work only on your own demons. Because when we do shitty things in life, we don't think we're not righteous- we think we have the right. Next time you take any action ask yourself 'Am I really the good guy here or am I just being a narcissistic whore?' You will do bad things naturally anyway, but a lot of them can be avoided if only you had a sassy gay me.

    People removed half of gay man's brains trying to cure them of being gay. They thought they had the right.

    People burned a bunch of Jews in the ovens for being uppity and too good with money. They thought they had the right.

    Races couldn't marry, and were separated. Not because racists saw themselves with horns and pitchforks but because they had an imaginary, egotistical halo over their heads.

    People sexually abuse others, because it happened to them- and their abuser got away with it, why shouldn't they? Same with teasing/gossip/bullying, and general hate.

    We don't empower women and limit their positions of power because we feel we know best 'their place.'

    People blow other people up because they see themselves as closer to the 'light' and the other people in darkness. How ridiculous it all is....

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    Quote Originally Posted by bulletsanddoves View Post
    I loathe all spirituality/religion/'good guy' isms. If you really want to do good in the world, shut the fuck up, leave everybody else alone- and work only on your own demons.

    Because when we do shitty things in life, we don't think we're not righteous- we think we have the right. Next time you take any action ask yourself 'Am I really the good guy here or am I just being a narcissistic whore?' You will do bad things naturally anyway, but a lot of them can be avoided if only you had a sassy gay me.

    People removed half of gay man's brains trying to cure them of being gay. They thought they had the right.

    People burned a bunch of Jews in the ovens for being uppity and too good with money. They thought they had the right.

    Races couldn't marry, and were separated. Not because racists saw themselves with horns and pitchforks but because they had an imaginary, egotistical halo over their heads.

    People sexually abuse others, because it happened to them- and their abuser got away with it, why shouldn't they? Same with teasing/gossip/bullying, and general hate.

    We don't empower women and limit their positions of power because we feel we know best 'their place.'

    People blow other people up because they see themselves as closer to the 'light' and the other people in darkness. How ridiculous it all is....
    I actually agree with the spirit of this, if not the delivery.

    Ideologues of all stripes don't accept that it's your actions, and not your beliefs, that truly define whether you are a good or bad person. However, a more relevant example would be the many virtue-signalers in politics, media and entertainment who behave in a degenerate fashion. The great majority of these people love to talk about how wonderful gay rights, interracial couples, Islam and "empowered women" are, too.

    Regardless of your beliefs and values, you are NOT a good person if you:
    Are sexually attracted to children.
    Solicit sexual favors from somebody else without any intention of commitment.
    Threaten to undermine that person's career if they reject your advances.

    Last edited by Spermatozoa; 11-09-2017 at 08:52 AM.

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    The idea that those two things correlate is laughable. Who comes up with this stuff?

    I imagine cousin marriages would only make family settings awkward and create several love triangles if there's a lot of cousins involved (especially if the female cousin ratio is higher than the male cousin ratio or vice versa lmao). Otherwise, no, I can't imagine it would have any other massive affect.

    Also I hear there's testing involved before cousins get married in the ME.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    US vs. Middle-East is a resource war, not an ideology war. This is common knowledge.
    Unfortunately, it's not common knowledge among the people who matter most, i.e. the ones who were duped into creating and supporting it.

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    Well, it lowers IQ by an average of 15 points if someone's parents are first cousins, so it's not a bad argument to say they are less equipped mentally to societally safeguard against the craziness that comes with extremism. The dark ages wouldn't be as likely to happen today because people know too much. We read and don't steal blankets from plague victims. But lower dumber people, more bad shit happens accidentally around them.

    I think bbc reported Pakistan had like an 80% inbred ratio. That's huge.
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

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    making a country more homogeneous by kicking out immigrants is one way to increase the rate of inbreeding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    making a country more homogeneous by kicking out immigrants is one way to increase the rate of inbreeding.
    People from the same ethnic group are all 1st and 2nd cousins?

    Anyways, on a serious note. I am sure there is a good middle ground to be found between kicking out every immigrant and letting in almost every immigrant. That way a country retains its identity without dwindling away either.
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    I have no clue if marrying cousins creates terrorism, but, it will create huge families. If you've got a family which takes the approach of blowing stuff up, then that it is going to be one huge family with lots of contacts.

    So it makes me wonder if culture in other societies, eg Europe when it was at one point historically a tribal society, that cousin marrying was common - it creates for bigger - closer families, closer tribes. Cousin marrying is still a popular thing in royalty for this reason until very recently. It's all about creating connections and allies.

    The middle east still has a more tribal culture than Western society, as far as I know.

    I doubt cousin marrying will create terrorists, if you mean it will make them stupid and carry it out But it will give a family which is more inclined towards terrorism better access to the people and the resources to carry it out. Sort of like a modern day mafia if everyone is connected through family.

    Another concern is that if big families will cover for the terrorist in the family.

    But, these are all stuff which law enforcement agencies are aware of, I can't say i'm bothered either way, I just get on with my life. I can't change politics so I focus on the stuff I can do.

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    the west aka israel and usa terrorising the middle east could have something to do with counterterrorism
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    Quote Originally Posted by cookie123 View Post
    As far as I'm aware, Islam permits it, but doesn't necessarily encourage one to pursue it.It's not mandatory. That's why it's prevalent in some cultures and not so in others.
    I believe it is a cultural thing. Indonesia is dominantly Muslim, they don't have the same problems. It's the middle East.

    I blame Genghis Khan for setting their civilization backwards 1000+ years by destroying much of their accomplishments and history.
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

  34. #34
    &papu silke's Avatar
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    Marrying your cousins has some benefits as far as how many children a couple has, it's just distant cousins not close ones. The "sweet spot" was discovered to be marrying your 4th cousin, so while 1st and 2nd cousin marriages are better avoided, marrying within your 'clan' or extended family seems to be a better deal procreation-wise than marrying someone completely unrelated. Having some genetic compatibility lowers chances of miscarries and infertility. Diversity isn't always a good thing, as most of us have been taught.

    Kissing cousins have more kids
    Marrying your cousin may pay off

    And since Islam is aiming to spread its influence and to take over all other non-Muslim countries by having 8+ kids per family while the rest of the civilized world is having 1-2 children, it's really an ideal strategy for them.

    @2:55



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