ENTj, ESFp, or something else?

[SeaofLavender]

I thought knowing her more deeply would help me type her, but now it just makes things more confusing because people are so complex. I was hoping an objective perspective would help. If you have any questions, ask and I'll answer as well as I can.

Her characteristics:

-Every aspect of her life has to be purposeful and align with her goals and principles. If others around her engage in behavior that goes against those principles, she gets upset, but she's not the type to tell others what to do.

-She's very distrustful and self-sufficient. To others she seems to disrespect authority or try to take over, but it's more due to the fact that authority must prove themselves worthy of her respect, and to be so young (almost 16) she's a lot more practical and put-together so it takes a lot to convince her to listen to you or accept your advice. She is keenly aware of what's in your wheelhouse as far as what type of advice you have the authority and experience to give, will not ask a mechanic how to ice a cake. She often picks up the slack and that's where the taking-over perception comes in, because she kind of does sometimes.

-She's incredibly organized, needs her environment to be organized and aesthetically pleasing, and tends to help other people get organized and stay on track without their asking

-She holds herself to extremely high expectations as well, and rarely relaxes, always knows what needs to be done in the moment and gets it done quickly. She identifies with her position and is constantly researching about it, trying to be better, and meet the expectation of what she thinks someone of that position should do. She is always busy and never home, usually because she stepped up to meet a need but many people need her. She might have never really gotten a chance to be a kid, but never seemed to miss it. Self-sacrifice seems like a joy to her.

-She has opinions about things that others don't even take that seriously, like video games or being home at a certain time, and she comes off as very big picture, saying things like "This is the eventual consequence of this action over time," or "This will help me later in life" She is also very goal-oriented. She finds it difficult to explain her ideas, but she is known for having ideas on how to make things better, or even how to better an idea.

-She is extremely passionate. Her trademark is her screaming her catchphrase "YEAH! LET'S GO!" She's often motivating those around her to be invested and excited and bold, and is known for being a leader.

-On the outside she is tough and confident, and has said that she doesn't like to talk about emotions or pain with people, prefers playful affection and usually considers nurturing to be patronizing. That being said, on multiple occasions I've held her while she cried. When she feels emotions, she feels them extremely deeply. Things that make her emotional tend to be worship music or feeling like a failure (see high expectations) even just a random emotional spell. But it's often so interesting to see how tough she'll be around certain people, when she broke down only moments before.

-She knows who she is, stays true to herself, and tends to think she's right, though deep down she cares what her closest friends think and is known to just go along with what they are doing. She rejects female "norms" but I can tell that sometimes she feels some guilt for not being like other girls.

-She communicates concisely and simply and gets annoyed at people that ask unnecessary questions, give unsolicited advice, too much information, or excessive compliments. If people sugarcoat/censor themselves for sake of being polite, she will cut them off and say "Just tell me the truth." Sometimes when I go off on an abstract tangent she'll just check out, because she finds it irrelevant.

-She's perceptive of other's emotions and quick to make someone smile if they seem hurt. She has never met a stranger and is well-liked but is also very private, was known to never talk in school. She hates to be alone and
loves to entertain people and make them happy. But she has a few people who she has a deep soul connection with and trusts them enough to be open with, and everyone else really just gets the surface of her pretty much.

-She will gladly perform her music for a crowd or crab walk from one seat headrest to another on a moving bus, but she's scared of things like rollercoasters or dogs. Anything that she can't control are some of her biggest fears.

-Her love language is quality time, and being known on a deep level is important to her. She seeks to know others deeply as well.

-There is literally no doubt in my mind that she is an extrovert. She needs constant stimulation and interaction, becomes anxious and sad when she is forced to be introspective.

-She doesn't juggle passions, will only devote herself to one person, hobby, etc at a time and tends to be fiercely loyal

-She's drawn to intelligent, introverted, calm people who can stimulate her with their hidden sense of humor and have a passion/talent like piano, etc

-a real conversation with her and her ENFP best friend:
Me: Your(ENFP) gift is upstairs *hands untyped her present first*
Untyped: *looks at present, then scans ENFP's expression* Your (ENFP) gift is upstairs
ENFP: SHE JUST TOLD ME THAT
Untyped: I know but sometimes you miss things

For reference, she's taken two MBTI tests recently. On 16 personalities she got ESFP. On John's test she got ESFJ.

[Spermatozoa]

While age 16 is quite a young age to definitively type someone, she sounds a lot like an Enneagram 6w7 with so/sx stacking.

LIE is extremely unlikely based on what you've written, but do consider ESE and IEE for her as well. I certainly wouldn't say that SEE is more likely than either of those two types. To be more sure, we need to know not just about her feelings, but also how she behaves/acts:

Is she more like this:

1. I work best when I can relax beforehand, and will mobilize only for the duration necessary.
2. I easily go from 'mobilized' to 'relaxed', but not from 'relaxed' to 'mobilized'. Thus, I may need external stimuli to become mobilized.
3. I tend to divide up matters into smaller stages during which they are mobilized, relaxing between each stage.
4. I focus and place the most importance on preparation - action is implied and given less attention.
5. I consider my working conditions (e.g., comfort, freedom, and convenience) more than the possible results and rewards (e.g., how much I am paid)

Or like this?

1. I work best if I are able to start mobilizing in preparation for what I must do.
2. I easily go from 'relaxed' to 'mobilized', but not from 'mobilized' to 'relaxed'. Thus, I may need external stimuli (like a movie) to relax.
3. I tend to perform an entire task at once, and try to maintain my internal 'readiness' between tasks.
4. I focus and place the most importance on taking action - preparation is implied and given less attention.
5. I consider the possible results and rewards of my work (e.g., how much I am paid) more than the working conditions (e.g., comfort, freedom, and convenience).

(Paraphrased from http://www.sociotype.com/socionics/dichotomies/r3t2)

[lavos]

She could be ESE or SEE. There are tests in socionics too, have her take some of these

http://sociotype.com/tests/

http://aimtoknow.com/test_beta

http://www.socionictest.net/Test.aspx

[SeaofLavender]

While age 16 is quite a young age to definitively type someone, she sounds a lot like an Enneagram 6w7 with so/sx stacking.

LIE is extremely unlikely based on what you've written, but do consider ESE and IEE for her as well. I certainly wouldn't say that SEE is more likely than either of those two types. To be more sure, we need to know not just about her feelings, but also how she behaves/acts:

Is she more like this:

1. I work best when I can relax beforehand, and will mobilize only for the duration necessary.
2. I easily go from 'mobilized' to 'relaxed', but not from 'relaxed' to 'mobilized'. Thus, I may need external stimuli to become mobilized.
3. I tend to divide up matters into smaller stages during which they are mobilized, relaxing between each stage.
4. I focus and place the most importance on preparation - action is implied and given less attention.
5. I consider my working conditions (e.g., comfort, freedom, and convenience) more than the possible results and rewards (e.g., how much I am paid)

Or like this?

1. I work best if I are able to start mobilizing in preparation for what I must do.
2. I easily go from 'relaxed' to 'mobilized', but not from 'mobilized' to 'relaxed'. Thus, I may need external stimuli (like a movie) to relax.
3. I tend to perform an entire task at once, and try to maintain my internal 'readiness' between tasks.
4. I focus and place the most importance on taking action - preparation is implied and given less attention.
5. I consider the possible results and rewards of my work (e.g., how much I am paid) more than the working conditions (e.g., comfort, freedom, and convenience).

(Paraphrased from http://www.sociotype.com/socionics/dichotomies/r3t2)

Thank you for your answer!! In answer to your question of which she's more like, she's "decisive"

[Spermatozoa]

Thank you for your answer!! In answer to your question of which she's more like, she's "decisive"

Probably SEE-Fi then.

[SeaofLavender]

Probably SEE-Fi then.

May I ask what were the giveaways? I'm trying to get better at typing, myself.

[Exodus]

Certainly an Se valuing extrovert. Most likely SEE or EIE. Too charismatic and energetic to be LIE probably.

When you say "Her values are the lens through which she sees the world" can you give an example of this?

This is a fantastic description by the way, anyone who wants help typing someone should take notes.

[SeaofLavender]

When you say "Her values are the lens through which she sees the world" can you give an example of this?

She won't watch any movies that don't reflect her values or make her better in some way, feels guilty about using facebook because it has no purpose to her, is distressed around other people cursing, if you ask her even a silly question the answer is always something about saving the world, etc I think it's more that she's just very intentional, and categorizes things based on what they contribute and whether they serve her goals and ideals

[Exodus]

She won't watch any movies that don't reflect her values or make her better in some way, feels guilty about using facebook because it has no purpose to her, is distressed around other people cursing, if you ask her even a silly question the answer is always something about saving the world, etc I think it's more that she's just very intentional, and categorizes things based on whether they contribute to the world or not

ok, I think EIE. There is also the fact you mentioned "tends to help other people get organized and stay on track without their asking", along with the anecdote which confirms it. Generally Gammas are more "mind your own business" kind of people, rather than Betas who seek to propagate their values. But, this is second-hand info so I wouldn't totally rule out Gamma extrovert. Fe leading types are known for being self-sacrificial as well. She seems to have a very prominent mobilizing function (if she is in fact EIE).

[Spermatozoa]

ok, I think EIE. There is also the fact you mentioned "tends to help other people get organized and stay on track without their asking", along with the anecdote which confirms it. Generally Gammas are more "mind your own business" kind of people, rather than Betas who seek to propagate their values. But, this is second-hand info so I wouldn't totally rule out Gamma extrovert. Fe leading types are known for being self-sacrificial as well. She seems to have a very prominent mobilizing function.

I disagree, this to me sounds more like IEE than EIE. Where do you see Rationality?

With regards to the Aristocratic/Democratic dichotomy, she sounds more Aristocratic to me - this would explain the desire she has to propagate her values. I also think this is more indicitive of Fi than Fe, as Fe-leads are generally not so clearly aware of what they do and don't find good and bad.

Still think either SEE or IEE, but yeah maybe IEE

[Exodus]

I disagree, this to me sounds more like IEE than EIE. Where do you see Rationality?

With regards to the Aristocratic/Democratic dichotomy, she sounds more Aristocratic to me - this would explain the desire she has to propagate her values.

I don't find these dichotomies useful for typing people. Quadra values and strengths are far more reliable.

I also think this is more indicitive of Fi than Fe, as Fe-leads are generally not so clearly aware of what they do and don't find good and bad.

@SeaofLavender said "She knows who she is, stays true to herself, and tends to think she's right, though deep down she cares what her closest friends think and is known to just go along with what they are doing."

So I would say what you said is only partly true - she does have some emotional malleability.

[Spermatozoa]

I don't find these dichotomies useful for typing people. Quadra values and strengths are far more reliable.

I agree with you up to a point.

Unfortunately, a person's Quadra values and strengths are difficult to assess without talking to them directly. The Reinin dichotomies are a useful shorthand for typing when you're only given second-hand information.

[darya]

SEE makes most sense.

[Sol]

The Reinin dichotomies are a useful shorthand

Reinin's traits is not Socionics, but a separate typology voluntary linked to Jung's types

[FDG]

Seems EIE or SEE.
Wouldnt touch It with a mile long pole at this stage.

[Number 9 large]

I thought knowing her more deeply would help me type her, but now it just makes things more confusing because people are so complex. I was hoping an objective perspective would help. If you have any questions, ask and I'll answer as well as I can.

Her characteristics:

-Every aspect of her life has to be purposeful and align with her goals and principles. If others around her engage in behavior that goes against those principles, she gets upset, but she's not the type to tell others what to do. Ti/Fi + weak Se

-She's very distrustful and self-sufficient. 6 To others she seems to disrespect authority or try to take over, but it's more due to the fact that authority must prove themselves worthy of her respect, and to be so young (almost 16) she's a lot more practical and put-together Se/Si so it takes a lot to convince her to listen to you or accept your advice.CP 6, Se + Ti She is keenly aware of what's in your wheelhouse as far as what type of advice you have the authority and experience to give, will not ask a mechanic how to ice a cake. She often picks up the slack and that's where the taking-over perception comes in, because she kind of does sometimes.

-She's incredibly organized, needs her environment to be organized and aesthetically pleasing, and tends to help other people get organized and stay on track without their asking Si, maybe Ti

-She holds herself to extremely high expectations as well, and rarely relaxes, always knows what needs to be done in the moment and gets it done quickly. Se She identifies with her position and is constantly researching about it, trying to be better, and meet the expectation of what she thinks someone of that position should do. seems ti + se She is always busy and never home, usually because she stepped up to meet a need but many people need her. She might have never really gotten a chance to be a kid, but never seemed to miss it. Self-sacrifice seems like a joy to her.

-She has opinions about things that others don't even take that seriously, like video games or being home at a certain time, and she comes off as very big picture, saying things like "This is the eventual consequence of this action over time," or "This will help me later in life" causal deterministic thinking She is also very goal-oriented. She finds it difficult to explain her ideas, but she is known for having ideas on how to make things better, or even how to better an idea.

-She is extremely passionate. Her trademark is her screaming her catchphrase "YEAH! LET'S GO! screams Se She's often motivating those around her to be invested and excited and bold, and is known for being a leader. Se Se Se

-On the outside she is tough and confident, and has said that she doesn't like to talk about emotions or pain with people, prefers playful affection and usually considers nurturing to be patronizing. Fe > Si valuing That being said, on multiple occasions I've held her while she cried. When she feels emotions, she feels them extremely deeply. Things that make her emotional tend to be worship music or feeling like a failure (see high expectations) even just a random emotional spell. But it's often so interesting to see how tough she'll be around certain people, when she broke down only moments before toughness = se, she seems fe valuing

-She knows who she is, stays true to herself, and tends to think she's right, Ti though deep down she cares what her closest friends think and is known to just go along with what they are doing. She rejects female "norms" but I can tell that sometimes she feels some guilt for not being like other girls. Fi superego

-She communicates concisely and simply and gets annoyed at people that ask unnecessary questions, give unsolicited advice, ti lead too much information, te ignoring or excessive compliments. If people sugarcoat/censor themselves for sake of being polite, she will cut them off and say "Just tell me the truth." se>ne Sometimes when I go off on an abstract tangent she'll just check out, because she finds it irrelevant.

-She's perceptive of other's emotions and quick to make someone smile if they seem hurt. She has never met a stranger and is well-liked but is also very private, was known to never talk in school. She hates to be alone needs fe and
loves to entertain people and make them happy. fe valuing But she has a few people who she has a deep soul connection with and trusts them enough to be open with, and everyone else really just gets the surface of her pretty much. introvert

-She will gladly perform her music for a crowd or crab walk from one seat headrest to another on a moving bus, but she's scared of things like rollercoasters or dogs. Anything that she can't control are some of her biggest fears. weak ne, where her se doesnt apply she gets anxious

-Her love language is quality time, and being known on a deep level is important to her. She seeks to know others deeply as well.

-There is literally no doubt in my mind that she is an extrovert. She needs constant stimulation and interaction, becomes anxious and sad when she is forced to be introspective. she might just be deprived of fe, i often feel the same way, yet im still not sure if im ambivert or extra/introvert, i get the idea im the same type as her.

-She doesn't juggle passions, will only devote herself to one person, hobby, etc at a time and tends to be fiercely loyal type 6 enneagram

-She's drawn to intelligent, introverted, calm people who can stimulate her with their hidden sense of humor and have a passion/talent like piano, etc

-a real conversation with her and her ENFP best friend:
Me: Your(ENFP) gift is upstairs *hands untyped her present first*
Untyped: *looks at present, then scans ENFP's expression* Your (ENFP) gift is upstairs
ENFP: SHE JUST TOLD ME THAT
Untyped: I know but sometimes you miss things

For reference, she's taken two MBTI tests recently. On 16 personalities she got ESFP. On John's test she got ESFJ.

All in all I'd say she's LSI-Se, or SLE-Ti Cp6, maybe with 7 (that could explain the extravert tendencies), it was like reading a questionaire about myself, i know you shouldnt type people based on your own, but take it for what its worth. also i highlighted sentences of yours and put the correct IEs behind them so you can check.
Also she might be type 8, just throwing it out there. in case shes SLE
cp6 and type 8 look a lot alike, but still leaning towards type 6 because of the loyalty in relationships. (type 6s are called loyalists for that reason, and are very doubtful of authority etc, especially when counterphobic, so still leaning to type 6.).

edit: cant believe people type her as see, i dont see fi anywhere and shes hugely confident on her logic (wheres the ti polr), also she seems obviously fe valuing, not so much fi valuing.

[Exodus]

@Number 9 large this part: "She is extremely passionate. Her trademark is her screaming her catchphrase "YEAH! LET'S GO! She's often motivating those around her to be invested and excited and bold, and is known for being a leader."

This is like, 80% Fe and 20% Se. It is extremely unlikely for an Fe suggestive type to be described this way.

[Number 9 large]

@Number 9 large this part: "She is extremely passionate. Her trademark is her screaming her catchphrase "YEAH! LET'S GO! She's often motivating those around her to be invested and excited and bold, and is known for being a leader."

This is like, 80% Fe and 20% Se. It is extremely unlikely for an Fe suggestive type to be described this way.

No, because the being a leader thing is definitely 100% Se, not Fe.
Besides:

always knows what needs to be done in the moment and gets it done quickly.

Se

To others she seems to disrespect authority or try to take over, but it's more due to the fact that authority must prove themselves worthy of her respect, and to be so young (almost 16) she's a lot more practical and put-together

Se

Anything that she can't control are some of her biggest fears.

<- Ne polr

She has opinions about things that others don't even take that seriously, like video games or being home at a certain time, and she comes off as very big picture, saying things like "This is the eventual consequence of this action over time," or "This will help me later in life"

Obvious Ti without Ne, causal deterministic thinking

She is also very goal-oriented. She finds it difficult to explain her ideas, but she is known for having ideas on how to make things better, or even how to better an idea.

Se

overall she show a LOT of Se and barely any Fe. she also seems Fe valuing so Beta ST seems to be right.

I know you're Te ignoring but:

''Se as Leading Function

The individual feels at home among people who are actively doing something and interacting with each other directly (visibly), and is able to organize people, move them around as necessary, and guide them in achieving a specific goal. ''
http://www.sociotype.com/socionics/i...on_elements/Se

[Exodus]

No, because the being a leader thing is definitely 100% Se, not Fe.

I'm not disagreeing with that, but passion, motivating others to be invested and excited -- this all indicates very strong Fe. Similarly "loves to entertain people and make them happy" is strong Fe, not just valued Fe. LSIs are not exactly the most entertaining type.

[Number 9 large]

I'm not disagreeing with that, but passion, motivating others to be invested and excited -- this all indicates very strong Fe. Similarly "loves to entertain people and make them happy" is strong Fe, not just valued Fe. LSIs are not exactly the most entertaining type.

I agree, but all the other stuff points towards se so much that i think Se>Fe

edit: i read it again and now i actually do see quite a lot of Fe

maybe shes alpha sf, with ti ha/seeking (being perfect) either way she doesnt value te, and seems to value ti and fe. so either beta or alpha.
maybe shes 2w1 or 1w2 so,sx

i dont know anymore..