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Thread: Prisons lead to bad outcomes, are immoral, and should be abolished

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    Default Prisons lead to bad outcomes, are immoral, and should be abolished

    "Prison," a slang term for Crime College, is the worst possible way of punishing people.

    Countries with rehabilitation-model prisons have low recidivism rates but have high first-time crime rates. Many countries with punishment-model prisons have high crime rates anyway and in worst cases offenders enter gangs and become even more criminal than before. Locking someone up in Crime College is expensive and achieves bad outcomes & it also morally dubious: it assumes that being deprived of freedom is a moral equivalency punishment for all acts with only time as a variable. It absolves society of taking real moral responsibility for punishing disorder and violence and it restores nothing to victims.

    It should be replaced with three options:
    (a) Corporal punishment,
    (b) Direct cash payments by court order from offender->victim,
    (c) Capital punishment for many offences, either those which are intensely heinous or for which there can be no restitution, or for gangs and crime lords et cetera

    We should also bring back outlawry. Prisons should only be for holding violent criminals until trials can be arranged.
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    People who commit disorder crimes have low IQ and are not considering long-term consequences of crime. But they are very scared of being beaten up.
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    Social programs reduce crime.

    Rehabilitation reduces recidivism. It doesn't reduce crime overall.
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    I feel like this attitude is in many ways a consequence of Se seeking more than rational analysis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    I feel like this attitude is in many ways a consequence of Se seeking more than rational analysis
    hm not necessarily, it's more observatory

    edit (but it's obvious why it seems se-seeking)
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    There are psychopaths, which are impossible to reform; although they constitute ~1% of society, they make up a full quarter of the prison population and commit roughly half of all violent crime. There is ongoing research into using cybernetic enhancements to rewire their brains to feel empathy, which no longer seems like science fiction.

    Otherwise, yeah, social programs and rehabilitation is the way to go. Progressivsm, ftw!

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    There are psychopaths, which are impossible to reform; although they constitute ~1% of society, they make up a full quarter of the prison population and commit roughly half of all violent crime. There is ongoing research into using cybernetic enhancements to rewire their brains to feel empathy, which no longer seems like science fiction.

    Otherwise, yeah, social programs and rehabilitation is the way to go. Progressivsm, ftw!
    yeah some people are just clinically inclined to commit violent crimes. then the best thing is simply to put them in asylum or hang them.
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    i feel like the ultimate form of prison will be universal basic income and that people actually love prisons, its all the rape and violence they don't like

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    i feel like the ultimate form of prison will be universal basic income
    we're going there, get ready

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    and that people actually love prisons, its all the rape and violence they don't like
    yes kind of. but only metaphorically. people don't like being exposed to danger, and are iwlling to exchange tons of "freedom" for this, but its not really relevant imo (altho it is a good point independent of relevancy)
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    i don't know what i think of the existence of prisons vs alternatives; I'm not anti-prison on principle but i just think of how in their present form they're used for social engineering & cheap/free labor. but i don't know what i think of the death penalty either - I'm sort of uncomfortable with it - and sth needs to be done w/ the straight up psycho killahs

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    Quote Originally Posted by lump View Post
    sth needs to be done w/ the straight up psycho killahs
    most people can be easily controlled by the forces of order if those forces are strong enough. psycho killah doesn't begin life as psycho killah, he begins life as young thug with no respect for society or rules. it is at this point you can administer beatings to warn them off the dark path, but if people are really psycho killahs the best way is to kill them.

    it is totally justified. they share the same streets as young children, pregnant mothers, and grandparents et cetera.
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    street justice

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    a good eg of corporal punishment is malaysia vs singapore. both have almost the same corporal punishment sentences and crimes inherited from the british indian penal code but singapore is probably the safest place on earth (or second safest after tokyo) and malaysia has tonnes and tonnes of crime. obviously you need other factors. but the societies which are safe are those overwhelmingly with harsh justice. I do not speak of criminal rehabilitation rates or even just crime rates but just general safety from crime.
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    Taking the law in your own hands can be a good thing also. But often it is looked down upon.

    It is the most natural thing to do. Now this is outsourced to the government. That means that people are kept unconscious in this area.

    It's a difficult topic though, but I'm getting more comfortable with the idea.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    I'm not sure if I could ever get on board with bringing back corporal/capital punishment as a norm except for in very extreme cases (say, the overthrow of a dictator level, where mass social pain was created by the criminal), but direct cash payments to victims sounds good to me. I'd be surprised if that didn't exist already in some areas but I know nothing about it. I will say though that I agree the scare tactic corporal punishment creates seems very effective in crime prevention.

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    The only real purpose of a prison is to keep the violent people away from the general population.

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    You can make arguments for greatly reduced sentencing and alternate punishments... but to say they should be completely abolished... eh, I don't see how you'd make that argument. There is a small segment of people that just cannot be rehabilitated and who cannot be in society. You do mention capital punishment i.e. death penalty... I'm guessing you're arguing that they should all simply be killed. So you're arguing for a greatly expanded death penalty... not sure how you plan on making that argument and maintaining this pseudo moral high ground you built up for yourself. I'd like to hear you try though.
    Also there are major criticisms of expanded corporal punishment and payments as punishment... such as it being inadequate punishment (a little pain is not hard to endure), the lower classes inability to pay the fines, and then some crimes (like money related crimes) the cost/benefit analysis of committing the crimes may even weigh in the favor of attempting them in many cases..
    Last edited by rat200Turbo; 10-27-2017 at 10:34 PM.

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    Prisons = almost entirely useless and inappropriate but profitable businesses. Abolish corporate greed and not crime to get rid of them!!

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    It's like cliches got implanted into the youth somewhere along the line but the reasoning underlying the cliches was never developed, and now cliches replaced critical thinking, or something. Like society has been lobotomized with memes ... it has to be the internet causing it. Internet derailing the brains development or something. The youths minds just become meme sponges.

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