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Thread: "The Muslim Invasion of Europe 2017"

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    Okay, so this is the end of Western Civilization in Europe basically (European powers know this and are trying to facilitate a hand-off to the newcomers). But Islam seems, by and large, not to respect Western culture. It's a far more violent culture as far as I can tell. The United States might possibly just maybe retain more Western values.

    Should I care about this? Should any of us care about any of it?

    No wonder this tipping point has been reached in the U.S. regarding "white culture" and how it's perceived. It's a purge. "White culture" is seen as everything that was wrong with the world and so when it dies it will be like this excising of sin, and maybe that is what I've been feeling.

    But what I don't understand is that Europe already considers this over. That's why they will sell out their people who have been there for generations and generations. They already declared game over. The ancestral population is the past. It's already gone.
    Last edited by inumbra; 04-30-2018 at 06:02 PM.

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    Everything is about movement inumbra. The constantly changing and shifting sands. Let the pieces fall where they will.

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    I know a fair amount of muslim people that live in my country and well... if you actually get to know them they're just normal people (lol, as if there even was need to say such a thing!).

    It's true that soon, in a couple of generations, the amount of immigrants will outnumber the amount of the indigenous population, but it's even true that there are not so many second-generation of muslims, or whatever religion they might be, that are strictly religious or not integrated in the culture they've been raised in. In fact, most of the people I know who grew up in Italy, in a muslim family, are not muslim or practising.

    There's a problem when you ghettoizing a specific culture, a religion, or a language, it creates hate and resentment, ignorance from both parts. Integration is the key to culture and to pacific cohabitation.

    Without immigrants there wouldn't be a future for my country, but if we keep them and treat them like a pestilence no one is helped either. We have to open the borders, but our minds and hearts before of them. ~

    There's a lot of hate lately towards Islam, it's no big surprise considering the attacks that ISIS and other idiots bring on in the name of Allah, but that's not what Islam is about. It's just ignorant to bash an entire culture under the spell of misinformation.

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    I disagree with David Icke on a lot of things, but I think he hits the nail on the head in this video:

    “We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand.” Randy Pausch

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    Very informational, can I have moor of it?

    Get it?
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

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    I was trying to remember where else have I heard of David Icke, then I remembered,



    so classy.


    That EU destruction video is kinda laughable from many fronts, I mean... seriously? as if Britain hadn't established its power throughout the world in the last centuries, or maybe David Icke thinks that native americans, australian, etc were speaking English before England went and submitted them. Could be, maybe reptilians taught them how to English!

    Not to count the ignorance.. German post WW2 has been importing all kind of labour force from anywhere, in order to repay of its faults towards humanity and create more labour force to restore its wealth... as you see, something similar to what happens today, even here we keep complaining of immigrants but not many would undergo the kind of jobs immigrants often do, but we need them, or we'd starve...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    I was trying to remember where else have I heard of David Icke, then I remembered,



    so classy.


    That EU destruction video is kinda laughable from many fronts, I mean... seriously? as if Britain hadn't established its power throughout the world in the last centuries, or maybe David Icke thinks that native americans, australian, etc were speaking English before England went and submitted them. Could be, maybe reptilians taught them how to English!

    Not to count the ignorance.. German post WW2 has been importing all kind of labour force from anywhere, in order to repay of its faults towards humanity and create more labour force to restore its wealth... as you see, something similar to what happens today, even here we keep complaining of immigrants but not many would undergo the kind of jobs immigrants often do, but we need them, or we'd starve...
    Well like I said before, I don't agree with a lot of what David Icke says, the reptilian theory is one of them as I think it's nonsense, but just because he's wrong on one thing, it doesn't make him wrong on everything. He could for instance say that water is red and the sky is blue so are you going to discredit him saying the sky is blue because he said the water is red? So you posting that reptilian video is just distracting from the point he was trying to make.
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    I'm sorry if my post came off as trying to "ghettoize" all Muslims.

    I'm worried about the erosion of individual rights and freedoms, public safety, etc. That seems to be happening in Europe and I'd be lying if I said it doesn't concern me. I've also been absorbing a lot of information off the internet and a lot of anti-white anti-Western sentiments and people celebrating the idea of all white people being destroyed and there's a lot of hate. A TON of hate.

    The political climate is really tense and I'm worried about violence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    Well like I said before, I don't agree with a lot of what David Icke says, the reptilian theory is one of them as I think it's nonsense, but just because he's wrong on one thing, it doesn't make him wrong on everything. He could for instance say that water is red and the sky is blue so are you going to discredit him saying the sky is blue because he said the water is red? So you posting that reptilian video is just distracting from the point he was trying to make.
    As I said, that video about EU destruction is laughable, for the things I've said.
    Further, I think that trusting a conspirational theorist about world affairs is itself laughable, he's a paranoid, ignorant, nationalist man, and both those videos show the same amount of psychotic misinformation.

    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    I'm worried about the erosion of individual rights and freedoms, public safety, etc. That seems to be happening in Europe and I'd be lying if I said it doesn't concern me.
    That seriously doesn't seem to be happening in Europe... not any more than what crazy armed pychotic kids and people in America are allowed to do. Statistically, last year psychotic events in the US have caused more deaths than the terroristic attacks in Europe in a bunch of years... but I wouldn't want to make such a comparison. I even think this has nothing to do with rights and freedom, if it did, we'd grant anyone the right to live wherever they wish, which is obviously not welcomed in some of the considered "civil" countries, today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    As I said, that video about EU destruction is laughable, for the things I've said.
    Further, I think that trusting a conspirational theorist about world affairs is itself laughable, he's a paranoid, ignorant, nationalist man, and both those videos show the same amount of psychotic misinformation.
    Are you going to discredit anything he said in that video with facts and analysis or are you just going to keep attacking the man instead based on his reputation and some prior negative suppositions to invalidate his claims in that video?
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    @Raver

    I've already listed the reasons why that is misinformation, so maybe reread my posts.
    Let me just add that in the plan behind the EU was to build a pacific community with freedom of circulation for people and their goods. There's been a lot of conspirational theories behind it, but they sum to the usual paranoic agenda.

    Seriously, what's the point in creating EU to destroy EU? Use your head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    @Raver

    I've already listed the reasons why that is misinformation, so maybe reread my posts.
    Let me just add that in the plan behind the EU was to build a pacific community with freedom of circulation for people and their goods. There's been a lot of conspirational theories behind it, but they sum to the usual paranoic agenda.

    Seriously, what's the point in creating EU to destroy EU? Use your head.
    Nothing you've said is addressed about the video, but just about the general topic and little to nothing of it seems convincing. The point of creating EU is for controlling the population and economy of Europe. Even when you ignore the migrant crisis, the EU has caused massive problems with the economy of many European nations with the introduction of the euro currency. Instead of mindlessly accepting what you hear from the mass media, try to use some critical thinking to look at both sides of the issue before reacting emotionally to anything that goes contrary to your prescribed opinions.
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    @Raver

    Obviously I addressed the video, ugh. If I addressed the general topic it's because that video is nothing but general random info presented to push forward what this guy thinks. He says two things: EU is built to destroy itself, Angela Merkel accepts everyone because she's a tool to destroy EU. BIG LOL
    (anyway I answered both of these points)


    Further, EU was doing just FINE before the very UNITED STATES OF AMERICA Lehman Bros big bank caused the international crisis in 2009. More about the European agenda, economics was obviously not its only purpose. Perhaps get informed instead of trusting the first guy who spits hateful things online ; )

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    That seriously doesn't seem to be happening in Europe... not any more than what crazy armed pychotic kids and people in America are allowed to do.
    I've been reading mixed reports. Though I wouldn't agree with "allowed" for US terrorists (like school shooters). It's illegal.

    I even think this has nothing to do with rights and freedom, if it did, we'd grant anyone the right to live wherever they wish, which is obviously not welcomed in some of the considered "civil" countries, today.
    This isn't fair. I said what I'm concerned about. But to be more specific, there are certain rights and freedoms in the country I live in that seem to be incompatible with many Muslim countries.

    Things I really find terrifying:
    - arranged or forced marriage or prostitution
    - having to cover my entire body except for my eyes when I go out
    - needing a male escort if I go out
    - having to obey my husband like he's God
    - no reproductive rights
    - honor killings
    - no rights for homosexuals
    - stoning people to death for adultery
    - no separation between church and state
    - jihad
    - anti-Semitism
    - rape acceptance

    There's a lot of stuff that isn't compatible with Western values. So it's kind of this question of if we really can all get along. What if we can't? What if we can only get along by one set of values or the other, so the values of whoever is in the majority prevail?

    PS: Here's an article which agrees with you - https://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/...gh-more-slowly
    Last edited by inumbra; 05-01-2018 at 10:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    @Raver

    Obviously I addressed the video, ugh. If I addressed the general topic it's because that video is nothing but general random info presented to push forward what this guy thinks. He says two things: EU is built to destroy itself, Angela Merkel accepts everyone because she's a tool to destroy EU. BIG LOL
    (anyway I answered both of these points)


    Further, EU was doing just FINE before the very UNITED STATES OF AMERICA Lehman Bros big bank caused the international crisis in 2009. More about the European agenda, economics was obviously not its only purpose. Perhaps get informed instead of trusting the first guy who spits hateful things online ; )
    I didn't come to the conclusion for this topic from that video and David Icke though, but rather through looking at the situation directly and noticing that the actions the politicians are taking place in Europe make little sense from an economic standpoint. Whether Angela Merkel is a deliberate tool, clueless with good intentions or not is irrelevant. It's clear that her actions entails that she is being careless in her handling of the migrant crisis, she even admits to it here:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ekers-election

    Here's another German politician admitting that the way the refugee crisis was handled was a mistake:

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-e...-idUSKBN15D0CO

    Even if you're pro-immigration, you have to admit that they are being absolutely careless in Europe with immigration. They are not letting in just Syrian refugee families that desperately need to be in a new country in order to survive, but basically almost anyone looking for work mostly outside of Europe. That would be fine if the economic refugees weren't more interested in looking for government handouts from welfare to take advantage of the system rather than actually contributing to the economy.

    Even ignoring the bigger picture and looking at the issue at face value, it wouldn't hurt to have stricter immigration laws in the EU and only allow immigrants that are going to contribute to the nation in some form rather than let in almost everyone that tries to cross the border indiscriminately. That way those that truly deserve to go to Europe like Syrian refugees or those outside of Syria that will contribute to the economy can get in and those taking advantage of the lack of immigration enforcement won't get in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    I've been reading mixed reports. Though I wouldn't agree with "allowed" for US terrorists (like school shooters). It's illegal.
    It surely isn't illegal to own as many guns as one could store. And those are what caused the latest deaths the most.

    This isn't fair. I said what I'm concerned about. But to be more specific, there are certain rights and freedoms in the country I live in that seem to be incompatible with many Muslim countries.

    Things I really find terrifying:
    - arranged or forced marriage or prostitution
    - having to cover my entire body except for my eyes when I go out
    - needing a male escort if I go out
    - having to obey my husband like he's God
    - no reproductive rights
    - honor killings
    - no rights for homosexuals
    - stoning people to death for adultery
    - no separation between church and state
    - jihad
    I'm sorry to sound so harsh, you can really be concerned about whatever you want. However, your list is an example of how ignorance operates. Islam does not really promote any of those things, most developed muslim countries don't do any of that, nor do the vast majority of the people who follow Islam cover themselves up, are in forced marriages, or kill anyone. Islam is a religion, not an allied belligerent squad. The people who've been pushing on this kind of things just happened to be Muslim, but what they do has nothing to do with Islam itself, it's their own agenda.

    Now, the history of these belligerent muslim minorities is indeed troubled, in the last centuries many countries passed from being civil and modern states to outdated rules imposed with force, from people extending their own interpretation of the Quran in every aspect of life. Countries like Afghanistan, Lybia, Persia are examples of this. And most of their inhabitants were as upset of this switch as anyone would be. Many had to emigrate... But this isn't the fault of Islam, but of the ignorance brought on by some extremists. Luckily they're not the majority of what this religion is.

    Last, but not least, I'm all with you in saying that that list is frightening and damaging, but it's not that different from what Christianity has been perpetrating for centuries, we know now that all of the blood versed in the name of Jesus was not needed, and that Jesus would not have suggested it, but that's not what our ancestors who read the Bible believed, because in it too there's "kill the infidels!", "your wife is but your slave", "sacrifice your son in my name", "rape your daughter in case there's no possibility to reproduction". Ugh, but we got over that....

    It seems like it's culture, again and again, that we need, to eradicate these forms of uncivil acts. Not fear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post

    Even if you're pro-immigration, you have to admit that they are being absolutely careless in Europe with immigration. They are not letting in just Syrian refugee families that desperately need to be in a new country in order to survive, but basically almost anyone looking for work mostly outside of Europe. That would be fine if the economic refugees weren't more interested in looking for government handouts from welfare to take advantage of the system rather than actually contributing to the economy.

    Even ignoring the bigger picture and looking at the issue at face value, it wouldn't hurt to have stricter immigration laws in the EU and only allow immigrants that are going to contribute to the nation in some form rather than let in almost everyone that tries to cross the border indiscriminately. That way those that truly deserve to go to Europe like Syrian refugees or those outside of Syria that will contribute to the economy can get in and those taking advantage of the lack of immigration enforcement won't get in.
    LOL, the foreign affairs expert has arrived...

    "Instead of mindlessly accepting what you hear from the mass media, try to use some critical thinking to look at both sides of the issue before reacting emotionally to anything that goes contrary to your prescribed opinions."

    projection much, aha

    I'm done with you, bye.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    I'm sorry to sound so harsh, you can really be concerned about whatever you want. However, your list is an example of how ignorance operates. Muslim does not really promote any of those things, most developed muslim countries don't do any of that, nor do the vast majority of the people who follow Islam cover themselves up, are in forced marriages, or kill anyone. Islam is a religion, not an allied belligerent squad. The people who've been pushing on this kind of things just happened to be Muslim, but what they do has nothing to do with Islam itself, it's their own agenda.
    Here, have an article on honor killings: https://www.meforum.org/articles/201...muslim-problem (Note how the acts have a lot to do with interpretations of their faith--you can't say that Islam as a religion is the problem (but I was never saying that--I have no issue with anyone practicing their faith as long as I don't have to practice it too and it doesn't involve killing people and other violence), but you can say that religion and culture intertwine and that people carry those values with them.

    Last, but not least, I'm all with you in saying that that list is frightening and damaging, but it's not that different from what Christianity has been perpetrating for centuries, we know now that all of the blood versed in the name of Jesus was not needed, and that Jesus would not have suggested it, but that's not what our ancestors who read the Bible believed, because in it too there's "kill the infidels!", "your wife is but your slave", "sacrifice your son in my name", "rape your daughter in case there's no possibility to reproduction". Ugh, but we got over that....
    And when people did this in the name of Christianity (though this is what Christianity/Catholicism WAS at the time) it was wrong then too--though guess who didn't think it was wrong? The people doing it. They thought it was holy. Their religion and culture were deeply intertwined. This is one reason why separation between church and state is so important. I suppose there could be some religions that I might not mind being intertwined with the state I live in. But the Judeo-Christian cluster isn't it.

    It seems like it's culture, again and again, that we need, to eradicate these forms of uncivil acts. Not fear.
    And that's the issue. People have cultures and they tend to like their cultures and feel most comfortable in their cultures, and sometimes they have some really deep values in their cultures that they don't wish to change. And if some people with extreme cultures enter a nation they may act according to their cultural values. So if women for instance have no value, go ahead and sexually assault 1000 of them in one night. See what I'm saying?
    Last edited by inumbra; 05-01-2018 at 11:38 PM.

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    I see what you're saying but I'm saying that from experience most muslims are not of the kind portrayed on anti-islamic-terrorists papers.
    Sure, culture can influence people, but culture is what you breathe and feeds you, so unless you live in a extremist Muslim country, you'll be as influenced by the kind of culture that you're living in. A muslim who grows up in Italy will be as Italian as he's believing in Allah (if he chooses to believe in him), and chances are that Allah and his true followers won't do any of the bad you see portrayed around... not to count that we portray western culture as if it's the true real bestestest emancipation for women, when everywhere you walk you can see big advertises of some half naked women just selling you toothpaste... and so is this the kind of culture we're talking about? who says that all that Islam amounts to is women being submitted to their men? and were that the case, would you be sure to consider it worse than selling one own's body for money...?

    there are a lot of prejudices and misconceptions here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    I see what you're saying but I'm saying that from experience most muslims are not of the kind portrayed on anti-islamic-terrorists papers.
    If you are trying to invalidate the link that I posted, please do so directly, rather than this strange hinting that doesn't actually make any real argument.

    Sure, culture can influence people, but culture is what you breathe and feeds you, so unless you live in a extremist Muslim country, you'll be as influenced by the kind of culture that you're living in. A muslim who grows up in Italy will be as Italian as he's believing in Allah (if he chooses to believe in him), and chances are that Allah and his true followers won't do any of the bad you see portrayed around...
    Right. This is the basis of your argument. I got it. I don't know if I agree or not. I'm trying to figure it out. I think that as with many things, this is true in some cases and not in others, and one must figure out if there's anything meaningful in that spattering. So trends, are very interesting, and I've read many things that are positive regarding Islam in Europe.

    not to count that we portray western culture as if it's the true real bestestest emancipation for women, when everywhere you walk you can see big advertises of some half naked women just selling you toothpaste... and so is this the kind of culture we're talking about? who says that all that Islam amounts to is women being submitted to their men? and were that the case, would you be sure to consider it worse than selling one own's body for money...?
    This is beside the point. I'm not offended by half naked women. I'm offended if men in my society by and large take this as "she wants sex forced on her" and then act on it. I'm not making claims about "all Islam" by the way. I'm noting that there are some practices in some Islam majority nations that are seemingly incompatible with Western values.

    there are a lot of prejudices and misconceptions here.
    Maybe so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    LOL, the foreign affairs expert has arrived...

    "Instead of mindlessly accepting what you hear from the mass media, try to use some critical thinking to look at both sides of the issue before reacting emotionally to anything that goes contrary to your prescribed opinions."

    projection much, aha

    I'm done with you, bye.
    So you got insulted from a comment I made in a previous post and now you won't debate with me? Okay if that is your prerogative, but don't act like you have been acting like a saint when your posts towards me suggests otherwise. All you have been doing is immersing yourself in fallacies without actually critiquing my points.
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    By the way, this

    https://www.google.com/amp/www.spieg...60939-amp.html

    is the sort of thing I find lovely. Though it saddens me a bit, the "more German than German" line and the fears of the future. As I would want families fleeing horrible circumstances to feel welcome and allowed to stay.

    I'm not against open borders but I am worried about violence. It's two sides, not one.

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    I find this relevant as well. If Europe has no balls, everyone suffers for it.

    https://youtu.be/0_W0HFy9Et4

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    This is fascinating

    https://youtu.be/fe_cuzsmmHU

    It reminds me a bit of my experiences with people trying to convert me to Christianity, only it's obviously way different.

    One thing I like about her is that although she left Islam she speaks to people to try to understand, and that is so important.

    I guess I personally think it can be reformed and that perhaps many of its practitioners have already reformed it for themselves. It reminds me of how violent Christianity used to be and IT was eventually reformed...

    I love the world's religions and I wouldn't wish any of them thrown out.

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    @inumbra, There is a Sci-Fi book by John Barnes titled "Candle", in which an AI meme, or mind virus, invades human minds and converts them to the task of serving it, while incidentally helping them solve some of their personal problems.

    Initially, the AI is very violent and uses the people whom it has taken over as disposable pawns in it's war efforts to spread itself (infect) every human on the planet. But as it becomes more successful in converting humans, and therefore more secure, it becomes less violent and more beneficent. Most of the time.

    Barnes compared the AI (he named it "One True") to every religion ever. I think he was on to something.

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    https://youtu.be/YpN80wsCNrQ

    This all reminds me so much of my experiences with Christianity. For years I was so resentful of Christians because my experience was of these people who would harass me and wouldn't leave me alone in their quest to convert me to their beliefs (to convert everyone). These people largely interpreted the Bible quite literally. They weren't extreme in that they didn't advocate for the violent ideas you can find in the Bible like stoning people to death for adultery, but nonetheless their need to "save" everyone became this bane of my existence and I lived with them for several years. What began as curiosity became this feeling of being imposed upon and singled out and harassed. I still feel this deep need to flee even remembering back. And I never want to be among a majority of people like that again. And I certainly don't want their beliefs at all involved in government.

    I should also mention that when I was a child I tried to believe the literal version of Christianity as it was presented to me. I tried to suspend my reason to believe. But I couldn't, and it was very painful, the day I realized I just didn't believe any of it and I never would. The fear of hell and Satan (what they threaten you with) remained, however. That was before living among the literalist Christians.

    It wasn't until I took Christian Philosophy in college that I resolved my resentments. I took it because I'd taken so many other religious philosophy courses and found all this love for so many world religions, but that didn't heal me. And finally I realized that if I was to heal, I needed to go back to the source of my pain: my anger and grievances with Christianity. And presented in an academic fashion I knew it would be safe because no professor can try to force it upon me in a course. That would be against the rules. And as a philosophy major I very much embraced the philosophical perspectives on things because they were intellectual and of reason. So there was nothing to fear from a logical look at Christianity.

    That class transformed me because the professor had gone through his own crisis of faith, finding similar issues that I did to the literalist interpretations. He also found so many similarities between Christianity and Buddhism (and I'd come to love Buddhism a great deal). He found the higher spirituality in Christianity, and I found it as well when we studied the Gospel of Thomas, which was the first time I really saw Jesus (of course as I see him). The prof also was a religious scholar and was able to put things within their historical contexts and meanings. We read books by other religious scholars that covered the context and meaning of statements in the Bible. This broke my resentment because I realized that at least in my belief, the literalist Christians were "wrong" in some sense (though not in every sense as their images of Jesus were compatible with the one I found). But above all, it gave me great assurance to learn that many Christian scholars at least recognize the complexity and nuance of these texts and they apply reason in their interpretations. They don't simply blindly follow some literalist interpretation from evangelicals. So in summary, I was healed at last.

    It seems to me that the issue here is not with Islam itself but that certain people are talking it horribly literally. And although I've never met them personally, I know that there are Christians in the US who take things so literally and are such fundamentalists that they would like their interpretations of Christianity to be law, to be forced upon others. I find these people insane, scary and delusional. I also (in my arrogant way) find them to be idiots, and that probably isn't fair, especially considering the brainwashing many have been subjected to beginning in childhood (which BTW I consider child abuse in many cases).

    So I don't think that the texts of Islam need to be revised. I think that they need rational scholars (like the Imam in the video). And the debates among those scholars need to be part of the discussion. Both Islam and Christianity have political components. Jesus was fighting not only a spiritual battle but a political one. His people were oppressed both within and without, and he was trying to save them, in every way. His way (IMO) was as a non-violent revolutionary. Mohammed may have been a violent revolutionary (I'm extremely unfamiliar with this religion), but considering that so many Muslims (the majority) find peace in these texts, there must be more to it? And the metaphors of violence can refer to the struggles we face within ourselves.

    Islam doesn't need revision, but as one woman said in the first debate I watched about if Islam is a religion of peace, it "needs a Renaissance." People need to see beyond literalist interpretations because literalism is counter to the true meaning of spirituality (Christianity, Islam and Judaism included). And furthermore, none of these religions should rule the state AFAIC because they often lead to violence if they do.

    I also found references to identity politics interesting in this. I didn't understand radicalism until I was somewhat indoctrinated in identity politics. I come from the white poor working class and so much of the pain in that group (broadly) is familiar to me. But despite having resented the white middle and upper classes much of my life, I didn't identify as a race really because I perceived that as "bad" *because* I am white. But being taught identity politics opened me to my "identity" and what it means, and to how much other people want nothing to do with it. This made me feel cleaved off from humanity, and then this paranoia took hold. It made me question my ideas on humanity and I began to realize that people of other "identities" may not share them. I began to feel there was no humanity at all, only people and their interests and that one group overthrows another and that's just what people do. This put me in a self-protective mindset. Like all humans, I am an animal with animal instincts. Anyway, after this whole head trip, I now understand how people can be radicalized because I got close to that. If it weren't for my rationally, I might have fallen to it.

    I currently am resentful towards identity politics. And I'm still angry about it. I am angry at my indoctrination because I lost touch with humanity. I'm angry that the categories people are was put before being human, and it got to this point that all I could see were these fucking categories. But my anger takes this form of "why can't you see" and the irony is that for many people in the US who are not white, that's been the reality, everyday, unending, and for a very long time.

    Adding onto this, because I think it's missing context, I entered into my "indoctrination" not knowing it was an indoctrination, but considering it an intellectual exercise. To enter, I needed to accept several assumptions (for the sake of argument): 1. That my perception cannot be trusted (due to white privilege my perception is inherently racist and therefore I must put it aside; and 2. That I may not question or debate what I am being told in discussion (whites often use their implicit bias and privilege to overwhelm discussions that center on disadvantaged groups, making it all about them and thus defeating the entire purpose by perpetuating systemic racism). So basically, I allowed myself some measure of blind acceptance, but I felt that this was necessary given the framework. Once this emotional storm began arising inside me, at first I couldn't sort out what my problems were, because I would try to attribute them to my own implicit racism, and in this process I became quite masochistic. I also tried going the route in which I suspend my emotions entirely and accept the notion of spaces--that generally POC (generalized) don't have a space to express their experiences without being shut down, and so it makes sense this idea that I have nothing to complain about (after all, it's nothing compared to what people endure under systemic racism). It took me a while to devote more attention to my feeling of deja vu as it was overwhelmed by all the emotional noise, and realize this seemed like a dogma. I am highly wary of dogmas and I believe they hurt everyone in the end. And this was also difficult to recognize at first because I agreed with a lot of what was being said anyway, so at times I could ask myself, "what's to disagree with?"

    I guess I currently see facts and good ideas being transmitted via a dogmatic medium. And so where I'm going is probably rejecting the dogmatic carrier and accepting the facts and good ideas.
    Last edited by inumbra; 05-22-2018 at 06:37 PM.

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