I only just started watching this, so easy on the spoilers folks
(edit: spoilers are ok w/ me now, I finished the season lol)
holden ford-
bill tench-
Debbie Mitford-
cotter smith-
mindhunter (tv show)
I only just started watching this, so easy on the spoilers folks
(edit: spoilers are ok w/ me now, I finished the season lol)
holden ford-
bill tench-
Debbie Mitford-
cotter smith-
Last edited by ashlesha; 10-30-2017 at 09:16 PM.
@Cosmic Teapot I saw you typed Debbie & holden in a different thread and I was wondering if you felt like expanding here?
I wasn't typing as I watched & I'm rly biased identifying w/ Debbie, so I wanna hold off..
(SPOILERS)Originally Posted by lump
I think Holden as SLI becomes particularly clear when he meets Ed Kemper. He asks for his handcuffes to be removed because they look uncomfortable.
Throughout the series he learns to manipulate the physical (and in his mind physical state => psychological) state of his conversational partner with subtitle and not so subtitle strategies. He is very suggestive to Debbies explanations and manipulation tactics (second or third episode when she shows him a flirting technique).
She is very Ep; Their relationship status isn't clear from the beginning. She tests him the entire first season to see if he is a suitable boyfriend (and maybe husband but she never says that). That sort of testing and unclarity is a very typical behavior that repeatedly appears in the duality desciptions on wikisonion. When they first meet, at the bar (especially during their convo when the band was playing) Debbie says something like "You see it from the perspective of ... but I from the perspective of..." which imo is a clear Ne indicator. They both talk about the same topic yet she is able to perceive why they don't share the same viewpoint easily.
She takes drugs to stay focused which Holden as Si-leading type sees very critically. During their sex scene he asks whether he should play wit her nipples to make the experience more intense.
Holden becomes excited when Wendy starts talking about a possible book. SLIs like novel ideas. Especially in this case because a) it's about his DS-function (Understanding (special)people aka sociopaths and psychopaths) and b) it would make his research applicable.
He often talks about his gut instinct (or intuition) and I hope people don't mistake it as introverted intuition and therefore categorize him as ILI. His relationship with Debbie is a caregiver-childlike dynamic where Debbie is the free-spirit and a refreshingly cold IEE and not a manic pixi dream girl and Holden is (a clearly positivist) SLI who breaks the rules and protocol (=/=LSI) to make dealing with societies' outcasts more effective (Te-creative).
The things you noticed were very different from the things I noticed! I could entertain iee for Debbie, she strikes me as more closed and cynical than I would typically expect for the type but I wouldn't rule it out. But I saw holden as someone very big picture and forward thinking, and openly sensitive and poetic, leaning in an nf direction.
Thanks for responding to my tag, it's cool to get input. (: I'm loving the show.
I never seen the series and probably never will, but I thought as lungs that he was the IEE and she the SLI (if so, I just have seen a single scene with her).
However based just in these scenes he seems intuitive, maybe Ne, but doesn't seem SLI to me in the slightest.
My thoughts weren't iee-sli per se. they weren't that fleshed out. I guess my general thought bubbles were like...
Debbie - introversion, ij? negativism, sensing?
holden - extroversion, positivism, enf>ent, ej?
Just a quick impression, haven't watched in detail yet:
Her: ESI
Him: LIE? Intuitive and rational at least.
I was kind of thinking this but I was worried I was doing a fangirl thing and holdens blatant sensitivity threw me off it. I think the irl guy he's based off of is lie, though, I made a thread on him http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...John-E-Douglas (but doesn't mean the fictional rendering would be the same)
Those types were my immidiate impression and there's no bias here : ) I'll watch the whole series and then get back to you.
This is a show i've been told to watch by others' recommendation so i can't rush to watch it just for this threadBut i saw the clips Slugabed posted and i was surprised how clueless she comes across in the breakup scene - wouldn't expect it from ESI, but then i haven't seen the series yet. On another note, thanks for reminding me of it -it's been on my waitlist lol
I've made an over the top update on my previous post
I think Holden as SLI becomes particularly clear when he meets Ed Kemper. He asks for his handcuffs to be removed because they look uncomfortable.
He could have said or done anything. First actions define people. Especially in fiction. Actions and words define a character, what they are capable of, what the are thinking about and what they focus on. Holden chose to focus on the physical state of the psychopath in front of him which is the function of introverted sensing.
as a base (1st) function (SEI and SLI)
A strong ability to recognize internal physical states in themselves and others, to understand how these states are reached, and to recreate and avoid these physical states.
Throughout the series he learns to manipulate the physical (and in his mind physical state => psychological) state of his conversational partner with subtitle and not so subtitle strategies. He is very suggestive to Debbie's explanations and manipulation tactics (second or third episode when she shows him a flirting technique).
An excellent example is Peter Paul Rubens, who created his paintings [...] from his memory of once experienced aesthetic sensations. By paintings, he sought to evoke in the viewer certain aesthetic experiences [...] intended by its creator. When an individual of this type is preparing something, he starts from envisioning all the associated qualities that the final product will have.
They are able to "collect" and remember them. [...] the ability to mold and perfect not only one's own aesthetic tastes and habits, but also those of others.
This leads to an awareness of internal tangible physical states [...] The individual physical reaction to concrete surroundings is main way we perceive and define aesthetics, comfort, convenience, and pleasure.
[1]
Example: Final episode. Holden prepares a plan which includes the murder weapon, images and the costume of the victim. He internalized the words which Ed Kemper used during their interviews and uses all those elements to compose a scenery that ultimately concludes with the confession of the murderer. Holden's goal was to first create an environment where the suspect feels uneasy, then make him talk to him (Holden) by imitating the same language and finally make the suspect unable to keep his cool. Debbie later calls this "manipulating his emotions" (Fi-Creative).
The ISTp is able to put strong pressure on other people, while never using a commanding tone. In situations when it is necessary for the SLI to subordinate others to his will, he does this by taking action on his sensing of sensations (Si) – the SLI begins to express whole "range" of unpleasant sensations: impatience, agonizing desire, irritation, suffering, offence, hostility. As a result of such displays, much sensory discomfort is created, which painfully acts on other people whose "sensing of sensations" is located on the vulnerable or subconsciously regulated positions.
[2]
************************************************** *****************************
Debbie is an Ep Temperament; Her relationship status with Holden isn't clear from the beginning. She tests him the entire first season to see if he is a suitable boyfriend (and maybe husband but she never says that).
[3]Thus, for example, LIE's benefactor Huxley (IEE) might say: "I think you should first make sure of your partner's feelings, and only then make any important decisions." The LIE will accept this proposal as good counsel and wise advice, and then proceed to lose his ESI partner forever. (That is, if this "well-wishing counselor" doesn't push him out and take his partner first.) Then later this "well-wisher" will comfort the distressed Jack: "See? I was right: she was too "weak" and failed the test. You did the right thing that you tested her."
[4]Routine often reduces their vitality. They both value their freedom and independence in making decisions. They feel well only when they have opportunities for creative work. Striving for perfection and harmony, constant development of their skills – this is their main stimulus in life. If harmony has not been achieved, they tend to react poorly to the slightest negative tones in their relations with others and other inconveniences of psychological and domestic kind.
SLIs dislikes very much when intimate things are being talked about directly - this is almost like a sacrilege to him. Therefore, the IEE speaks of intimate relations by the way of hints and insinuations, in a veiled and concealed form. On the inside, SLIs are quite squeamish and sensitive towards any straightforward banality.
When they first meet, at the bar (especially during their convo when the band was playing) Debbie says something like "You see it from the perspective of ... but I from the perspective of..." which imo is a clear Ne indicator. They both talk about the same topic yet she is able to perceive why they don't share the same viewpoint easily.
She takes drugs to stay focused which Holden as Si-leading type sees very critically. During their sex scene he asks whether he should play wit her nipples to make the experience more intense.
Holden becomes excited when Wendy starts talking about a possible book. SLIs like novel ideas. Especially in this case because a) it's about his DS-function (Understanding (special)people aka sociopaths and psychopaths) and b) it would make his research applicable.
[5]The SLI greatly respects the ability to accurately and laconically describe traits and qualities of any person, just as he admires and respects the ability to predict the development of interrelations.
Any science or scientific method that expands the boundaries of human capabilities evokes much interest and respect in the SLI.
The SLI is very much attentive and considerate of the opinions of people who know how to find ways out of very difficult situations. He listens with pleasure to their recommendations and advice on how to behave oneself, how to act and what to do in an unexpected situation or in the case of danger.
[...]
The SLI is in need of individuals who are capable of discovering and evaluating his own creative abilities, unlocking and opening up his talents, and inspiring him to bring them to fruition.
He often talks about his gut instinct (or intuition) and I hope people don't mistake it as introverted intuition and therefore categorize him as ILI. His relationship with Debbie is a caregiver-childlike dynamic where Debbie is the free-spirit and a refreshingly cold IEE and not a manic pixi dream girl and Holden is (a clearly positivist) SLI who breaks the rules and protocol (=/=LSI) to make dealing with societies' outcasts more effective (Te-creative).
[6]SLI sees his mission in life in development of new methods and procedures. Any scientific discovery is interesting to him from the point of view of its practical implementation and realization.
SLIs focus on the goal in the development of new procedures and new technologies. They are interested in any scientific discovery from the point of view of its practical application.
Any work the SLI does qualitatively, methodically, at a measured steady pace, paying attention to and working through the details. [...]
He can scrupulously and methodically study the most complicated and entangled cases.[...]
The SLI prefers to prove his view point in business and work-related questions by the actual results of the work.
************************************************** ****
[7]Si leading types are constantly adjusting themselves to their environment (which includes the people around them), and rarely have any fixed ideas about what is "appropriate" to desire in a given situation. Thus they are willing to accommodate other people's needs in an ad hoc manner. It is enough for something to "feel right" for them to justify doing it.
Holden does not follow Wendys guidelines (Ti, standarized questions). He needs to follow his gud instincs and understand what is going in in his conversation partner. From the outside it look as if he is trying to sympathize with the interviewer. However he never seeks an emotional connection but learns from episode to episode how to manipulate people during dialogue.
In case you’re iterested, there is a theory that Holden himsel is a sociopath which explains his abnormal interest in sociopaths and psychipaths [8]
Or narcisstic: [9]
Or:
[10]The SLI with respect refers to people who have unusual and supernatual abilities. He may try to develop the same abilities in himself.
The SLI is very much persuaded and convinced by authoritative people. A person who has achieved success, public acknowledgement and acclaim, inspires deep respect in him. If his own work is not properly recognized by its merit, the SLI reacts very painfully to this, because he is in the habit of comparing his own achievements with successes and attainments of other people.
what stereotypes? the only thing said about SLIs was my statement that they aren't characterized by expansive forward thinking and emotionality, which is true.
some of the things you highlight in the SLI descriptions that "provoke respect and admiration" or they "try to develop" are phrased that way because they refer to an SLI's weak functions, so they're kind of the opposite of the traits you would look for in an SLI.
technically his first action on the show is talking to the wife of a hostage-taker about their relationship so that he could use that information to help calm the situation. on which basis I could type him Fi base if I chose to zoom in on one isolated thing. a consistent focus on the physical comfort of others isn't something I noticed from him throughout the season. other than bringing pizza and drinks to the people he interviews when they ask, which isn't above and beyond.I think Holden as SLI becomes particularly clear when he meets Ed Kemper. He asks for his handcuffs to be removed because they look uncomfortable.
He could have said or done anything. First actions define people. Especially in fiction. Actions and words define a character, what they are capable of, what the are thinking about and what they focus on. Holden chose to focus on the physical state of the psychopath in front of him which is the function of introverted sensing.
I guess you could call placing the victim's clothing in front of the murderer "manipulating the physical state," in the sense of Si, but I think it's kind of a stretch. he is manipulating their emotions, and he's a natural at it. he uses physical props and he also reads where they are mentally and provokes them with emotionally charged language, successfully influencing how they feel.Throughout the series he learns to manipulate the physical (and in his mind physical state => psychological) state of his conversational partner with subtitle and not so subtitle strategies. He is very suggestive to Debbie's explanations and manipulation tactics (second or third episode when she shows him a flirting technique).
Example: Final episode. Holden prepares a plan which includes the murder weapon, images and the costume of the victim. He internalized the words which Ed Kemper used during their interviews and uses all those elements to compose a scenery that ultimately concludes with the confession of the murderer. Holden's goal was to first create an environment where the suspect feels uneasy, then make him talk to him (Holden) by imitating the same language and finally make the suspect unable to keep his cool. Debbie later calls this "manipulating his emotions" (Fi-Creative).
I don't see any evidence that she's Ep temperament - she's quiet, stiff, focused, consistently calm and unruffled. testing behavior could be a lot of things, like e6 could be another typological explanation.Debbie is an Ep Temperament; Her relationship status with Holden isn't clear from the beginning. She tests him the entire first season to see if he is a suitable boyfriend (and maybe husband but she never says that).
I can go with this, even if its just an isolated thing.When they first meet, at the bar (especially during their convo when the band was playing) Debbie says something like "You see it from the perspective of ... but I from the perspective of..." which imo is a clear Ne indicator. They both talk about the same topic yet she is able to perceive why they don't share the same viewpoint easily.
I don't think being critical of drugs is specifically Si, and maybe I don't remember but I don't think he expresses any concerns about her health or overall well-being or anything to evidence that it's Si related for him.She takes drugs to stay focused which Holden as Si-leading type sees very critically.
that's one example of how they behave in private. here's another one.During their sex scene he asks whether he should play wit her nipples to make the experience more intense.
I don't remember this scene. but I also get excited when my iei talks about publishing a new book, even though it has nothing to do with me, lol.Holden becomes excited when Wendy starts talking about a possible book. SLIs like novel ideas. Especially in this case because a) it's about his DS-function (Understanding (special)people aka sociopaths and psychopaths) and b) it would make his research applicable.
I also don't think an interest in pioneering new fields of psychology is characteristic of SLI - I know this is kind of a stereotype, but I don't think it's an off-the-wall one.
I agree that gut instinct doesn't equal socionics intuition, though his style of taking risks to follow his hunches and acting primarily on dubious speculation does seem intuitive to me.He often talks about his gut instinct (or intuition) and I hope people don't mistake it as introverted intuition and therefore categorize him as ILI. His relationship with Debbie is a caregiver-childlike dynamic where Debbie is the free-spirit and a refreshingly cold IEE and not a manic pixi dream girl and Holden is (a clearly positivist) SLI who breaks the rules and protocol (=/=LSI) to make dealing with societies' outcasts more effective (Te-creative).
Debbie takes drugs and studies sociology, but her overall demeanor is calculating and reserved. its subjective, I guess, but I wouldn't peg her as a "free spirit."
I agree that holden is very clearly a positivist who breaks the rules. I guess he's working on making things more effective, lol, but I don't get the impression efficiency is his highest aim or anything...he seems driven by curiosity and in interest in the human mind, to my view.
I agree with this. but though he doesn't seek an emotional connection, he seems emotionally driven. like when he's teaching local cops and he starts waxing poetic and giving emotional, poetic speeches that don't go over well. maybe his misreading of the room could be weak Fe, but his interactions with convicts don't speak to Fe polr. and SLIs possess emotional reserve and would usually be embarrassed by such things.Holden does not follow Wendys guidelines (Ti, standarized questions). He needs to follow his gud instincs and understand what is going in in his conversation partner. From the outside it look as if he is trying to sympathize with the interviewer. However he never seeks an emotional connection but learns from episode to episode how to manipulate people during dialogue.
I wasn’t referencing or quoting your statement. What bugs me is the S-Types aren’t interested in non-pratical, highly theoretical or novel ideas. But I should’ve said it above.
technically his first action on the show is talking to the wife of a hostage-taker about their relationship so that he could use that information to help calm the situation. on which basis I could type him Fi base if I chose to zoom in on one isolated thing. a consistent focus on the physical comfort of others isn't something I noticed from him throughout the season. other than bringing pizza and drinks to the people he interviews when they ask, which isn't above and beyond.
Hostage-taker: *is naked* You can see me?
Holden: Yes. I can see that you are naked. I can see that you are feeling cold.
(translated from German)
Which is more Si. How can we se consistent focus on any introverted function? It’s also difficult to see the first function in ESIs. Sometimes they look like LSI (role function Fi), or other introverted types. If he was ESI would he questions his methods at least once? What is his motivation? Preventing crimes? He does that one single time. The other times it’s all about making his work valuable. For whom? For himself. His recognition. His maybe-book. The usual motivations for fictional ESI-characters like Revenge or fairness are never there. Again he does not funt the sociopath because they did something wrong. They are just part of his research.
I guess you could call placing the victim's clothing in front of the murderer "manipulating the physical state," in the sense of Si, but I think it's kind of a stretch. he is manipulating their emotions, and he's a natural at it. he uses physical props and he also reads where they are mentally and provokes them with emotionally charged language, successfully influencing how they feel.
So we both disagree on the last interview. If you interpret differently then there is nothing I can hold against it. As you said: New input is important.
I don't see any evidence that she's Ep temperament - she's quiet, stiff, focused, consistently calm and unruffled. testing behavior could be a lot of things, like e6 could be another typological explanation.
She’s a stereotypical ExFp. About 10 previous sex mates before Holden, flirting with other men (university scene, dark room), she takes drugs for more energy at night to focus on her studies (I'm implying that her energy level is either low or high. Little room for in between which is characteristic for xxxp). It’s her who invites Holden into her apartment, introduces him to “dirty talk” (German translation), drugs, invites him to happenings. In their last scene Holden says that she has doubts about her degree but still learns for it at night. A xxxj would not waste energy such things.
Then there is her distance from him. For him she has no actual answer to the do-you-want-children question. Any fast progress that locks the relationship to fast is alarming. ExFps relationships are complicated und full of potential pitfalls in the first stages. So is theirs.
I would dig up the Are-IEEs-cold? Thread but I don’t wanna. My point is. She does not have to be a dreamy and loud female to be IEE.
I don’t mean be offensive to you and your opinion. We see this differently and that’s ok. I just had to come back because I like the show and thus felt entitled (which, yes isn't a good thing) to share my own viewpoint.
yeah, I think anybody can be interested in these things. but I think STs aren't typically the ones creating them, advancing them, etc. I wouldn't rule out an ST type based on this alone, but doing what holden does, operating almost entirely on unproven speculation, throwing his livelihood into a matter of hunch & faith, I think is not a comfortable space for a sensing type.
haha, I saw the "cold" thing as just a penis joke. I think ESI is pretty out of the question for him as well. The Fi base thing was just a reference to the fact that the first action alone might not mean that much in the greater context.Hostage-taker: *is naked* You can see me?
Holden: Yes. I can see that you are naked. I can see that you are feeling cold.
(translated from German)
Which is more Si. How can we se consistent focus on any introverted function? It’s also difficult to see the first function in ESIs. Sometimes they look like LSI (role function Fi), or other introverted types. If he was ESI would he questions his methods at least once? What is his motivation? Preventing crimes? He does that one single time. The other times it’s all about making his work valuable. For whom? For himself. His recognition. His maybe-book. The usual motivations for fictional ESI-characters like Revenge or fairness are never there. Again he does not funt the sociopath because they did something wrong. They are just part of his research.
some of this could be Se as easily as Ne, imo. and also just being a college student in the 70s. I suppose there could be extroversion here, but I see some parallels w/ my own relationship & I'm an introvert. idk.She’s a stereotypical ExFp. About 10 previous sex mates before Holden, flirting with other men (university scene, dark room), she takes drugs for more energy at night to focus on her studies (I'm implying that her energy level is either low or high. Little room for in between which is characteristic for xxxp). It’s her who invites Holden into her apartment, introduces him to “dirty talk” (German translation), drugs, invites him to happenings. In their last scene Holden says that she has doubts about her degree but still learns for it at night. A xxxj would not waste energy such things.
I don't think taking drugs to stay awake speaks to fluctuating energy levels.
I don't disagree with any of this.Then there is her distance from him. For him she has no actual answer to the do-you-want-children question. Any fast progress that locks the relationship to fast is alarming. ExFps relationships are complicated und full of potential pitfalls in the first stages. So is theirs.
I would dig up the Are-IEEs-cold? Thread but I don’t wanna. My point is. She does not have to be a dreamy and loud female to be IEE.
(and I'm not unconvinced that she's IEE either - just expressing my doubts for the sake of dialogue. I'm more convinced of holden not being SLI ;p)
same!I don’t mean be offensive to you and your opinion. We see this differently and that’s ok. I just had to come back because I like the show and thus felt entitled (which, yes isn't a good thing) to share my own viewpoint.
@lungs, watched a few episodes now, ESI and LIE still stand and are unlikely to change : ). It has nothing to do with them being "duals" btw. She's too cutting for IEE imo (other Fi types are out of the question) and he's also not ethical imo (cause you were mentioning his sensitivity...). SLI is a super odd suggestion for him.
Yeah, idk, I was reading up on what other people on the internet said about the show and he was described as "autistic" etc. I was like??? I guess with that + the sli typing I see something different? He seems like a softy to me, but idk. I still see him as ej, positivist, intuitive, which would point to LIE.
Typing him as idk ILI-Te or even LII is survivable, SLI and IEE are completely off imo. I'm pretty sure he's LIE though, if you take a step back and take into account everything, not just his specific quirks. And if we take bullshit further, their relationship is extremely agressor-victim like also, her being strong on Se and him on Ni : ).
Ok. I saw the first episode. I think I won't look the series any further. The sex scene was very uncomfortable, as the whole series in general. Def. not my style.
Holden is a weird character. I think he's more likely ENTj than ISTp.(Actually I don't see him as a real SLI at all, just as some descriptions seem to picture SLIs, which without a real reference is pretty unlikely to make the real idea of the type).
Anyway, he's pictured with some unclear or confusing traits. The Si PoLR is not properly defined in the character as its brutally notorious in LIEs irl.
However, he's more likely extroverted and Intuitive and definitely J type. He has no 1DFe, but the character lacks the awkwardness that some LIEs have due 1DSi and 1DFi, so he appears more natural (less forced, awkward -Idk how to describe it) than LIEs irl.
She's a similar case. She's evident Se character, but also they added a much more Ti approach than it appears in ESIs naturally. However she's more likely ESI Se I guess.
exactly the same ambiguities/confusing aspects I noticed that made me hesitant to type them for sure. cool.
@lump, what do you think about the others? I'm not really sure btw.
Wendy Carr - LIE
Bill Tench - LSI?
Cotter Smith - LSE
I never really got past "rational st" in my thinking for the two other male characters, but leaned the same way as you.
Wendy's an interesting one - LIE never crossed my mind because she had that sorta rigid ice queen ij thing going on. She comes off as inflexible, but then she up and moved to Virginia so it's like there's something more malleable under the surface and then that soft underbelly comes out with the cat thing. Idk. I like her a lot but I don't get why it's so hard for her to understand that using her questionnaire to the letter won't get people talking - the same info could be asked about without following it like a script. Obviously a logical type. I was leaning Ti base but mainly because of temperament.
Yeah,you're right, Wendy could be LSI. Something about her seems intuitive to me, although she does have the IJ rigidity. Tbh there isn't any deeper analysis behind my typings, just wanted to know your opinion : ) It's a very addictive show.
Holden: ILI
Bill: LSE
Debbie: IEE
Wendy: SLI
Shephard: LSE
Last edited by perpetuus; 02-21-2019 at 01:55 PM.
Holden Ford - INTP Balzac
Jonathan Groff7.jpg
Last edited by khcs; 09-19-2020 at 05:55 PM.
Bill Tench - ESFP Napoleon
Holt McCallany1.jpg
Last edited by khcs; 09-19-2020 at 06:37 PM.
Debbie Mitford - ISTP Gabin or ISFJ Dreiser ???
Last edited by khcs; 09-19-2020 at 06:28 PM.
Wendy Carr - ESTP Zhukov ???
Anna Torv7.jpg
Last edited by khcs; 09-19-2020 at 06:02 PM.
Shepard - ISTJ Gorky
Last edited by khcs; 09-19-2020 at 06:04 PM.
I joined specifically to reply to this thread after watching both seasons, and now rewatching to catch what I didn’t catch the first round.
Holden: I think his character is ILI and he’s identical to Edmund Kemper, just opposite sides of the law. His ideas are Ni based, idealized insights into perplexing and complicated questions. He believes there’s some sort of higher meaning behind actions, despite the actions being savage and gruesome. Creative Te wants to utilize these insights into the criminal mind on a practical level to fulfill an idealistic goal (prevent crime).
Bad with Se but still valued as he’s in law enforcement but his take on law enforcement is to use any other alternative as opposed to physical force. He subtly will give an elusive air of authority and he dresses the part for it, but when he’s around Se egos, he lets them take over because they know how to flex their authority (within their capacity) appropriately and effectively. He’s not comfortable saying anything outright when it comes to authority, like when he gave Gregg “the look” as pressure to lie about the incriminating tape. His goal wasn’t to create some new alternative method, but he believed there’s something underneath that hasn’t been “mined” yet (probably “unearth” would be a better word), which shows strong Ne but unvalued. He’s largely indifferent to the physical surroundings, which shows weakness in both Si (his surroundings don’t affect him) and Se (he doesn’t effect his surroundings). Mobilizing Fi is evident that he tries hard to establish relations with the serial killers not as subjects but as if they’re “friends having conversations.” Much like Kemper (deeply hated his mother but desperately wanted to love her and get her approval but killed her in the end), bold usage of weak Fi backfired; Holden collapsed from a nervous breakdown when Ed went to hug him. I think on a deeper level, he identifies with Kemper and that deeply scares him that they’re alike.
Bill Tench SLE-Ti
Se lead very evident as he’s highly aware of the physical surroundings which gives him a realistic gauge on the situations so he knows when and how much to effectively exert authority in any given moment. He also innately understands power dynamics in any hierarchy and given the fact that he’s worked in the FBI for a really long time, he knows how to make use of the power hierarchy. Mistrusts and dismisses any info. that don’t have tangible/physical evidence to anchor it. Straightforward approach.
Flexible but strong usage of Ti by formulating general logical models. He created Road School to teach local law enforcement what the FBI knows just so they don’t walk in “blind” as crime become more complex. Although Bill admits there’s some limitations within the FBI organization, he vastly supports expansion of the FBI because there are explicit laws and boundaries that are to be enforced. Still, he comes up with his own conclusions based on whatever logical findings that exist and expresses his views in a forceful and unreserved way. Reluctant to give an explanation of anything without explicit or tangible evidence.
Bold but weak Fe manifests in caustic sense of humor. His face when Shepard told him to relocate down to the basement made me die.
Strong but unvalued Si. He maintains the appearance of homeostasis but is short-tempted and combative. His appetite is unaffected when looking at gruesome crime scene photos and he’s able to eat pretty much whenever. He doesn’t savor or talk about the food in any capacity, and even when he said the fish sandwich sucked, he wouldn’t mind getting another one (season 2, episode 9).
Strong but unvalued Te. He’s concerned with the end result and sees it very clearly but doesn’t care about efficiently carrying it out. Road School was his way of getting out the stifling Te work environment (which he actually does fine in but don’t care for it) so he could be away. He works hard with Road School but also wanted to get in a few rounds of golf being that he’s free from the office drudgery (might as well take full advantage). I have a suspicion that his original goal was to be free to play golf and Road School was a way to make it happen that he could fulfill both work and play.
PoLR Fi- his wife was overly anxious and nagging him to move somewhere else because the parents are “talking behind Brian’s back” (Season 2). He corrected her saying that the parents are talking behind her back which made her more upset because he didn’t buy her flimsy excuse. She’s an Fe ego, but I don’t know which one.
This may be a Duality inter-type relationship. Napoleon - Balzac
Last edited by khcs; 09-19-2020 at 06:57 PM.
This is the comment you are looking for
Husband and I started binge watching this one a few days ago…almost through season one.
I was actually really surprised to come on here to find Holden being typed SLI
I thought he was a clear ILI the whole time.
a few thoughts on this….his character (Holden) “based on John E. Douglas, the author of the book Mindhunter: Inside the FBI’s Elite Serial Crime Unit. Douglas is no stranger to Hollywood: He reportedly served as the main inspiration for Jack Crawford in the novels Red Dragon and The Silence of the Lambs, as well as Bryan Fuller’s take on Will Graham in the TV show Hannibal.”
-https://www.vulture.com/2017/10/mind...l-killers.html
I noticed the similarities between Holden and Will graham from Hannibal very quickly, which led me to believe it was all tied in together with this.
I think what people should consider, and what the tv show mind hunter portrays, is that criminology was very new at this point, and Holden was going with his gut and making intuitive leaps constantly. If one focused on the fact that he asked for the shackles to be removed once because they made someone ‘uncomfortable’, it seems to me like focusing on just one thing instead of the main pattern of his behavior. You can type anyone anything if you just for us on ‘that one thing they said that one time’, as many people in the Socionic community do, while ignoring a pattern of behavior, not always on purpose.
anyway
Debbie-Gamma SF, some intense sx type
Bill Tench-thinking LSE seems like a good typing
Wendy Carr- Beta NF of some kind
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
