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Thread: Socionics For Dummies

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    By the degree to say nonsense you are outstanding.
    Use grammar check.
    "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; genius hits a target no one else can see." - Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    At best, people have different processing speed and memory, which barring some serious learning disabilities, can be augmented by computers or pen and paper. That's why IQ tests are timed. An IQ basically says that some people can do things faster than other people, and that's why people with higher IQ progress faster than peers with lower IQ.

    Both the computer and the human brain are essentially two physical objects that are being manipulated in certain ways to create a certain result. Namely, the transistors for computers, and neurons for human brains. And we can virtually program anything into a computer, even anything that a human is capable of doing, such as doing mathematics, composing music, creating images, play chess, proofreading documents using OCR, and so on, if we had the ability to do so. The reason why computers still can't do what humans can do with ease, is because we still don't know how the human brain works exactly, and hence we have no idea how to program them yet. But once we do understand it, then computers and humans would become indistinguishable from another, except that computers would have a lot faster processors and bigger memory than any human being.

    So even if there were a "different level of logic" that is still not yet understood or only capable of being understood by some people, it is possible to be "programmed" into a human being by learning it, or just by directly programming it into the computer.

    So it has always been about "software" and not "hardware".
    so youre saying a baby has the same brain as albert einstein the only difference is speed and memory?

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olimpia View Post
    I'd appreciate it if you could share that site. Because this is the first time I have heard of it, and it still doesn't make much sense to me...
    There used to be really good information on the PoLR at en.socionics.ru but I think the site has disappeared. I read it several years ago.

    I remember they said something like the PoLR is the tipping point between action and in-action, and that there is this conflict between on one hand producing information and on the other hand being too weak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karatos View Post
    Use spellcheck.
    Quote Originally Posted by Karatos View Post
    Use grammar check.
    I’ve just accepted it as a form of autistic poetry by now.

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    of the sun Karatos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    I’ve just accepted it as a form of autistic poetry by now.

    "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; genius hits a target no one else can see." - Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karatos View Post
    I’ve never seen a recent pic of @Sol so that’s how I’m imagining him from now on LMAO

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    I’ve never seen a recent pic of @Sol so that’s how I’m imagining him from now on LMAO
    he's my dual. it's touchy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karatos View Post
    Use grammar check.
    this spell does not work. you tried it already
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post


    this spell does not work. you tried it already
    Lol. It's asinine that you try to instruct people with regards to "speaking nonsense" and what you think are "English errors" when you so often fail to construct coherent English syntax.
    "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; genius hits a target no one else can see." - Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    he's my dual. it's touchy.
    Wait you think Karatos is EII?

    And “touchy”?

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    If that's the case, I can't tell if he's being serious or not. But one way or another, I don't take Socionics seriously enough to give much weight to his opinion. And even if I did take Socionics that seriously, and Sol now thinks I'm EII, this is the third typing he's given me and the third quadra he's placed me in, so his general methodology is too flawed to have consistency and therefore too flawed to give credence to. Regardless, I know what I want most in people, whether we want to make it Socionical or not.
    Last edited by Karatos; 12-29-2018 at 05:54 AM.
    "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; genius hits a target no one else can see." - Schopenhauer

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    It's not just about possessing certain abilities, but it's more to do with how to effectively use that ability in order to effectively solve certain problems. And that involves in believing that one is able to successfully utilize their own skills. Saying that you can't innately do certain things due to PoLR or "low dimensionality" would cause self-doubts and therefore low self-efficacy beliefs, which would cause them to give up on things earlier than warranted. Both F types and T types would keep whining about how they're no good at their "weak functions", but they don't care to improve upon their skills.


    PERCEIVED SELF-EFFICACY AS A GENERATIVE CAPACITY


    Efficacy in dealing with one's environment is not simply a matter of knowing what to do. Nor is it a fixed act that one does or does not have in one's behavioral repertoire, any more than one would construe linguistic efficacy in terms of a collection of words or a colony of fixed sentences in a verbal repertoire. Rather, efficacy involves a generative capability in which cognitive, social, and behavioral subskills must be organized into integrated courses of action to serve innumerable purposes. Success is often attained only after generating and testing alternative forms of behavior and strategies, which requires perseverant effort. Self-doubters are quick to abort this generative process if their initial efforts prove deficient.

    There is a marked difference between possessing subskills and being able to use them well under diverse circumstances. For this reason, different people with similar skills, or the same person on different occasions, may perform poorly, adequately, or extraordinarily. Collins (1982) selected children who perceived themselves to be of high or low mathematical self-efficacy at each of two levels of mathematical ability. They were then given difficult problems to solve. While mathematical ability contributed to performance, at each ability level, children who regarded themselves as efficacious were quicker to discard faulty strategies, solved more problems, chose to rework more of those they failed, did so more accurately, and displayed more positive attitudes toward mathematics. As this and other studies show, perceived self-efficacy is a significant determinant of performance that operates partially independently of underlying skills (Locke, Frederick, Lee, Bobko, 1984; Schunk, 1984).

    Competent functioning requires both skills and self-beliefs of efficacy to use them effectively. Operative efficacy calls for continuously improvising multiple subskills to manage ever changing circumstances, most of which contain ambiguous, unpredictable, and often stressful elements. Even routinized activities are rarely performed in exactly the same way. Initiation and regulation of transactions with the environment are, therefore, partly governed by judgments of operative capabilities—what people think they can do under given circumstances. Perceived self-efficacy is defined as people's judgments of their capabilities to organize and execute courses of action required to attain designated types of performances. It is concerned not with the skills one has but with judgments of what one can do with whatever skills one possesses.

    Judgments of personal efficacy are distinguished from response-outcome expectations. Perceived self-efficacy is a judgment of one's capability to accomplish a certain level of performance, whereas an outcome expectation is a judgment of the likely consequence such behavior will produce. For example, the belief that one can high jump six feet is an efficacy judgment; the anticipated social recognition, applause, trophies, and self-satisfactions for such a performance constitute the outcome expectations.

    An outcome is the consequence of an act, not the act itself. Serious confusions arise when an act is misconstrued as an outcome of itself, as when jumping six feet is viewed as a consequent. An act must be defined by the criteria that state what it is, for example, a leap upward of a designated height. To regard a six-foot high jump as an outcome would be to misinterpret the specification criteria of an act as the consequences that flow from it. If an act is defined as a six-foot leap, then a six-foot leap is the realization of the act, not a consequent of it. Failure to complete a designated act (e.g., knocking off a crossbar by failing to jump six feet) cannot be the outcome of that act because it was never fully executed. The failed jump is an incomplete act that produces its own divergent collection of outcomes, be they social, physical, or self-evaluative.

    Outcome expectations are also sometimes misconstrued as the effectiveness of a technique (Maddux, Sherer, & Rogers, 1982; Manning & Wright, 1983). Means are not results. An efficacious technique is a means for producing outcomes, but it is not itself an outcome expectation. For example, an effective cognitive skill for solving problems can be put to diverse uses to gain all kinds of outcomes. Useful means serve as the vehicles for exercising personal efficacy.

    Efficacy and outcome judgments are differentiated because individuals can believe that a particular course of action will produce certain outcomes, but they do not act on that outcome belief because they question whether they can actually execute the necessary activities. Thus, expectations that high grades gain students entry to medical school and that medical practice yields high incomes will not steer undergraduates into premedical programs who have serious selfdoubts that they can master the science requirements.

    Social Foundations of Thought & Action: A Social Cognitive Theory

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Wait you think Karatos is EII?
    I think Michael Fassbender as EII

    The more dual's traits are seen - the stronger you have your weak functions. More developed and mature personality. It's not surface role function and superego impressions, it's deeper transformation. To say someone reminding your dual is a praise, a compliment.

    Some people may think themselves as duality types. It should mean they strongly want to be better, unconsciously.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Praise from the almighty Sol, towards Karatos “of the sun”

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    Best thread ever.

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    Red is Si since "ESI's tend to prefer pastels"

    Source


    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Red is Si since "ESI's tend to prefer pastels"

    Source

    Observation of fingernail polish preferences. Isn't that hard evidence?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Observation of fingernail polish preferences. Isn't that hard evidence?
    Um

    lol

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    Duality transcends the friend-zone.
    "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; genius hits a target no one else can see." - Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karatos View Post
    Duality transcends the friend-zone.
    Hopefully lmao
    "We live in an age in which there is no heroic death."

    My Typing Thread

    Model A: EIE-Ni2
    -
    Enneagram: 6w7, 2w1, 8w9
    Instinctual Variant: Sx/So


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    Quote Originally Posted by Luminous Lynx View Post
    Hopefully lmao
    Actually.
    "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; genius hits a target no one else can see." - Schopenhauer

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    From the chat:
    Subteigh Today 05:10 PM
    I have such weak S I am legally blind and thus have Se PoLR weak sensory perception.

    Subteigh Today 05:17 PM
    if you comment on anything, then you are ILI, because the ILI is called the Critic.

    Subteigh Today 05:18 PM
    If you make a show of being sad when someone suffers, then you are EII, because they are the Humanists.

    Subteigh Today 05:21 PM
    If I wear a watch, I must be -leading. Alternatively, if I don't wear a watch, I must be -leading.

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    People can't be categorized on types as everyone is unique. Except when you need to act reasonably to live, what implies the usage of generalizations and hence categories. Then you need to forget about "everyone is unique" and accept the rough reality incompatible with liberal idiotism idealism. In case you still want to live, certainly.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Socionics is not a game. It should not be fun. Be prepared for a pain and a humilation.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Categorization depends on the knowledge or the theory of the categorizer.

    Categorizations are of course going to depend on what kind of theory that it's based on. If we have different theories about the world or people, then we're going to have completely different categorizations. In Socionics, what that theory should be based on (what is the theory behind what should be called "Te", and why, for example?) is not made clear, mostly because it doesn't have one yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Categorization depends on the knowledge or the theory of the categorizer.
    I criticized the general approach which is sometimes given as an argument against personality typologies. When people reject them principally and irrationally (as I've explained above) without trying to use them.
    For those which are reasonable to try becomes important the said by you: the competence in the subject is needed to be able correctly understand its usefulness. This problem is seen among those on typology forums who rejects typology's main ideas. The ideas which are correct in my experience, - as the importance of duality types, for example. And some other basics.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    I criticized the general approach which is sometimes given as an argument against personality typologies. When people reject them principally and irrationally (as I've explained above) without trying to use them.
    For those which are reasonable to try becomes important the said by you: the competence in the subject is needed to be able correctly understand its usefulness. This problem is seen among those on typology forums who rejects typology's main ideas. The ideas which are correct in my experience, - as the importance of duality types, for example. And some other basics.
    Define competence, which will be defined by a theory.

    Some say that EIIs are about keeping journals, while EIEs are not about keeping journals. You can come up with some convoluted reasons as to why, such as it's the Ni-creative of EIEs and Ni-ignoring of EIIs that make them that way. That's a theory of theirs (which is primarily based on their own personal observations, and correlating certain behaviors with certain types).

    But you can also perfectly well say the opposite that Ni-creative is about keeping journals because they want to control time or something like that.

    There is no clear, hard-to-vary reason for what must make EIIs keep journals or not keep journals. The same goes for pretty much anything else.

    Of course, you can disagree with either and say that it's not type-related or something like that. But then you still don't have any good reason for why you should be right.

    There is no real good reason to prefer one over the other. Correlation does not imply causation.

    To be right, you're going to need a premise which defines the criteria for what makes something right or wrong, and that premise is going to be a theory. In Socionics, that theory is hidden, or it's implicitly assumed to be the observations contained within the human experience. The problem is that the human experience is also a kind of a theory, which is also laden with errors that need to be corrected. The human experience is reliable enough for us to get by, but it's not a perfect theory.

    Why are there 16 types? Because we SEE that there are 16 types. Why are there 8 functions? Because we SEE that there are 8 functions. The theory of Socionics is based on human observations. It's saying that our observations IS the theory. The problem is of course, our observations are going to be narrow and limited to very certain areas of what we can only personally see.
    Last edited by Singu; 02-23-2019 at 11:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Define competence, which will be defined by a theory.
    Now I see why you like your spiel so much. It’s a good way to set the stage for telling people they need to prove themselves to you off the bat. There a problem arises tho because nobody cares about doing that for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Now I see why you like your spiel so much. It’s a good way to set the stage for telling people they need to prove themselves to you off the bat. There a problem arises tho because nobody cares about doing that for you.
    We should bang.
    "The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools." ―Thucydides



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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Now I see why you like your spiel so much. It’s a good way to set the stage for telling people they need to prove themselves to you off the bat. There a problem arises tho because nobody cares about doing that for you.
    Erm, you do realize that this is the whole reason why nobody could ever fundamentally agree with anything on Socionics, right? That they're all starting from completely different premises, and they all have their own theories about people.

    I'm not telling people to do it for me, I'm saying do it for whomever that they want to convince people of their typing or whatever, or even the entire validity of Socionics.

    It's no wonder that nobody outside of this small corner of the internet will ever care about Socionics.

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    Z z z ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Define competence, which will be defined by a theory.

    Some say that EIIs are about keeping journals, while EIEs are not about keeping journals. You can come up with some convoluted reasons as to why, such as it's the Ni-creative of EIEs and Ni-ignoring of EIIs that make them that way. That's a theory of theirs (which is primarily based on their own personal observations, and correlating certain behaviors with certain types).

    But you can also perfectly well say the opposite that Ni-creative is about keeping journals because they want to control time or something like that.

    There is no clear, hard-to-vary reason for what must make EIIs keep journals or not keep journals. The same goes for pretty much anything else.

    Of course, you can disagree with either and say that it's not type-related or something like that. But then you still don't have any good reason for why you should be right.

    There is no real good reason to prefer one over the other. Correlation does not imply causation.

    To be right, you're going to need a premise which defines the criteria for what makes something right or wrong, and that premise is going to be a theory. In Socionics, that theory is hidden, or it's implicitly assumed to be the observations contained within the human experience. The problem is that the human experience is also a kind of a theory, which is also laden with errors that need to be corrected. The human experience is reliable enough for us to get by, but it's not a perfect theory.

    Why are there 16 types? Because we SEE that there are 16 types. Why are there 8 functions? Because we SEE that there are 8 functions. The theory of Socionics is based on human observations. It's saying that our observations IS the theory. The problem is of course, our observations are going to be narrow and limited to very certain areas of what we can only personally see.
    Idk why I’ve always liked reference articles and journals. I keep notes on methods and a lot of what I have I use as advice to help others. It’s a big part of my Humanist nature
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Fascinating.

    @sbbds You're like indirectly showing a good example of why what I'm saying is correct and why Socionics doesn't work.

    You're saying that I must be this and that way (because I want people to have things explained to me and so on), because of your "typing" and the consequent derivation of information from Model A.

    But you're not providing an objective explanation for why I must think that way, other than your own opinion of me and your subjective typing of me. What you have provided are entirely subjective information and not objective.

    So if I ask, "Well why must I think like that?", and you can't really answer that question, can you? And if you say "Well you MUST think like that in order to reach that conclusion", then well not really, because I can reach that conclusion in multiple different ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Fascinating.

    @sbbds You're like indirectly showing a good example of why what I'm saying is correct and why Socionics doesn't work.

    You're saying that I must be this and that way (because I want people to have things explained to me and so on), because of your "typing" and the consequent derivation of information from Model A.

    But you're not providing an objective explanation for why I must think that way, other than your own opinion of me and your subjective typing of me. What you have provided are entirely subjective information and not objective.

    So if I ask, "Well why must I think like that?", and you can't really answer that question, can you? And if you say "Well you MUST think like that in order to reach that conclusion", then well not really, because I can reach that conclusion in multiple different ways.
    Typing is in the eye of the beholder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Fascinating.

    @sbbds You're like indirectly showing a good example of why what I'm saying is correct and why Socionics doesn't work.

    You're saying that I must be this and that way (because I want people to have things explained to me and so on), because of your "typing" and the consequent derivation of information from Model A.

    But you're not providing an objective explanation for why I must think that way, other than your own opinion of me and your subjective typing of me. What you have provided are entirely subjective information and not objective.

    So if I ask, "Well why must I think like that?", and you can't really answer that question, can you? And if you say "Well you MUST think like that in order to reach that conclusion", then well not really, because I can reach that conclusion in multiple different ways.
    First, can you explain how anything I said has anything to do with your typing or Model A?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Remiel View Post
    We should bang.
    You have to bang Singu first tho, I’m like the final boss afterwards

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    First, can you explain how anything I said has anything to do with your typing or Model A?
    It's what you've been saying forever. You keep saying that I must want people to explain things to me due to "Ti HA".

    But it doesn't really matter whether it has to do with "Model A" or not, because those are just extra labels. What makes you think that I must've said what I said, because "I want people to explain things to me"?

    Nonetheless, you've dodged a rational argument raised by me, and instead turned it into a matter of different psychological perspectives. It's your opinion that you think what I said has to do with reason X. But there's no good, hard-to-vary reason for why I MUST'VE said that due to reason x.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    You have to bang Singu first tho, I’m like the final boss afterwards
    Challenge accepted.
    "The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools." ―Thucydides



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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    It's what you've been saying forever. You keep saying that I must want people to explain things to me due to "Ti HA".

    But it doesn't really matter whether it has to do with "Model A" or not, because those are just extra labels. What makes you think that I must've said what I said, because "I want people to explain things to me"?

    Nonetheless, you've dodged a rational argument raised by me, and instead turned it into a matter of different psychological perspectives. It's your opinion that you think what I said has to do with reason X. But there's no good, hard-to-vary reason for why I MUST'VE said that due to reason x.
    Just because something was the case for how I acted towards you in the past doesn't mean it is every time in the future too. I don't know what you're talking about, you filthy empiricist. Get out of here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Just because something was the case for how I acted towards you in the past doesn't mean it is every time in the future too. I don't know what you're talking about, you filthy empiricist. Get out of here.
    Right, and you still haven't changed your mind about Socionics. Like I said, it doesn't matter whether you got the idea from Socionics or not, your assumption about my motivations were wrong, period.

    Maybe when you finally stop being influenced by Socionics or Model A, even unconsciously, then you'll stop making absurdly wrong assumptions about people's motivations.

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