EII/INFj - doomed to be perceived as arrogant?

[velveteen]

Are we doomed to be perceived as arrogant? Is it Fi? Gosh darn it, I just want to help people! I was forced into a lifestyle where I had to fend for myself and figure everything out on my own, so I sympathise with those who are in need of help. But my tendency to go out of my way to help others has given some people the impression that I'm a know it all. I don't intend to be that way, it's just this weird desire to help others; so I attempt to find answers that they are unable to to assist them in some way even if its a field of study I'm not an expert in.

Seeing as it makes some people uncomfortable, I've stepped back, reflected and decided to stop focusing my efforts into others and focusing more on myself and my likes and dislikes.

Anyone have stories about their intentions being misunderstood in this way?

[Adam Strange]

Are we doomed to be perceived as arrogant? Is it Fi? Gosh darn it, I just want to help people! I was forced into a lifestyle where I had to fend for myself and figure everything out on my own, so I sympathise with those who are in need of help. But my tendency to go out of my way to help others has given some people the impression that I'm a know it all. I don't intend to be that way, it's just this weird desire to help others; so I attempt to find answers that they are unable to to assist them in some way even if its a field of study I'm not an expert in.

I work with a woman who is EII e9, and this is exactly what she is like. She is driven to be helpful and she does supply me with answers to problems that neither of us are expert in, but she works hard at this and is an incredible asset. She even says "Gosh darn it!".
For the record, people do not perceive her to be a know-it-all. She can be pretty wise in her professional interactions, and is on good terms with everyone, including two SLE's.

She is much less wise in her personal life. She describes herself as a Southern girl from Alabama, and her father was a John Wayne type who took no crap from anyone. She married a guy who has a trucking company and is e1, and he is constantly critical of her and ignores all of her wants. If you saw them together, you would not guess they are a couple, since she is smart and well-dressed and he looks like a truck mechanic. You can take any guess you want as to why she married him. I'm pretty sure her marriage is coming apart, since she started crying one day at lunch (in a restaurant! This from a woman who is normally perfectly poised) when she talked about it.

Seeing as it makes some people uncomfortable, I've stepped back, reflected and decided to stop focusing my efforts into others and focusing more on myself and my likes and dislikes.

Anyone have stories about their intentions being misunderstood in this way?

This is exactly what I've advised her to do. She needs to focus on her own needs first. I'm beginning to see that this is a common problem among EII e9's.

There is a strange dichotomy between the female and male EII's whom I have known. This might have something to do with society's expectation of sexual roles. The two females I have worked with have been very focused on their work and on harmony in their relationships and have been pretty successful at this. They have professional standards and live by them, and are quite understandable to me. Both of them married very masculine guys who are much lower in social status than the EII's are, but the EII's are focused on doing whatever it takes to keep the family together.

The male EII's seem very different to me, although they are also good at their jobs and prioritize family. The three whom I think are EII's (two from a test they took and one who is an ex-brother-in-law Delta NF) normally seem like smart, eager puppy dogs who can become complete assholes in a second, and then switch back after a few moments. (This, of course, is just my impression, and isn't really suitable for generalization, any more than is the idea that all LIE's are assholes naturally. Although we are.) While the one's I've known were really smart, I got this desperate, dodging sense from them, as if they needed support but didn't want to ask for it at the same time.

I can easily see how the male EII's could be duals to an ESTj female like my mother. My mother is a person who is logical, commanding, no-nonsense, Do-this-now,-here-I'll-help-you-get-started, Eat-your-dinner, Leave-your-father-alone-so-he-can-do-some-work, No-you-don't-want-that-toy-watch-your sister-I'll-be-over-there. (Hell, my brain is exploding just recalling this from my childhood.) Without someone like that in their lives, an EII might have to fill in that role by themselves, and I could see how the awkward result might look arrogant.

[Rebelondeck]

Welcome to the club. All Ijs can be perceived as arrogant or aloof due to their detached, independent thinking style; in a sense, they have to mentally depart for a moment, in order to think. Sometimes this process can create blank stares or puzzling body language when in reality, the Ij's body has likely gone into neutral. Ij input needs to temporarily switch off during rationalization but in doing so, parts of the conversation can be missed and or body control lost, and this can give impressions to others in the conversation that Ijs are not fully engaged or are disinterested; Ijs don't give this impression in text - unless they really are arrogant but arrogance is independent from type.

a.k.a. I/O

[velveteen]

@Adam Strange I'm like that. I don't like bothering people, so I don't ask for help even though I may need it. It's not a useful trait.

I think she's helpful because she genuinely cares for the people she's working with. I imagine the only time an EII would stop bothering is when they cease to care altogether or when their patience runs really thin. EII seems to have his or her shit together or at least try to appear to for everyone. Doing everything for everyone, but himself or herself, that should be the EII motto. They're the kind of people who'll sacrifice themselves for the group and who cover their depression with fake smiles and the illusion of having their shit together.

I am resentful of people who think I should have my shit together and I don't pretend to, unless I feel my emotions are affecting another person's wellbeing. I'm good at keeping the family together and creating harmony amongst a group of different people with different needs and beliefs. I myself feel very detached from the situation when I do that kind of stuff. Creating peace among a group of people has always come easy to me, but having people demand this of me or demand I care is VERY emotionally taxing.

I relate to a lot of what you have written, but I feel if I knew this woman I'd be trying to console her and insist she leave that guy and seek independence, even though that may not be what she wants (this is my idea of being helpful. Sometimes it's intrusive and sometimes I tell people what I think is best for them). But from what you’ve described, he sounds narcissistic and demeaning and I'm not tolerant of that kind of behaviour because I'm so incredibly aware how horribly it can affect a person and their wellbeing.

I'm almost certain I'm a Fi dom. But sometimes I think I'm too aggressive to be an EII female. I used to be scared of the repercussions of voicing my opinions, but I have overcome that. What matters to me are qualities in a person, I don't care about social status or rescuing the underdog. I seek dudes who aren't assholes and who share similar values to myself. I can't even imagine an LSE being interested in me at all because I'm challenging and I am not averse to physical violence if the situation calls for it. I'm loud and opinionated and call people out on their shit all the time. I'm just quite in situations that require mental processing or when I feel my actions or words will do more harm than good. I can't imagine myself in a marriage like you described your colleague is in, I don't even know how I would go about getting into one or attracting someone like that. We'd bicker and fight like rabid dogs. I think sometimes people get the impression that the EII is docile or something but they have an inner flame that can't be reckoned with.

I've become very aware of my needs and demand nothing less than for them to be met in my personal relationships. I tend to call out behaviours and attitudes I deem harmful all the time and don't back down till people acknowledge them and if they don't, I get up and leave and keep them at arms length. Men with traits commonly associated with LSEs are not fond of me because I am very resistant and opinionated when I want to be.

[Spermatozoa]

Are we doomed to be perceived as arrogant? Is it Fi? Gosh darn it, I just want to help people! I was forced into a lifestyle where I had to fend for myself and figure everything out on my own, so I sympathise with those who are in need of help. But my tendency to go out of my way to help others has given some people the impression that I'm a know it all. I don't intend to be that way, it's just this weird desire to help others; so I attempt to find answers that they are unable to to assist them in some way even if its a field of study I'm not an expert in.

Seeing as it makes some people uncomfortable, I've stepped back, reflected and decided to stop focusing my efforts into others and focusing more on myself and my likes and dislikes.

Anyone have stories about their intentions being misunderstood in this way?

I seem to clash with Enneagram 6 and the SO instinct in particular; therefore an SP/SX 9w8 EII like you is less likely than average to run into conflict with me.

Nonetheless I tend to have to three complaints about EIIs. All of these complaints apply to other types as well, to some extent. (1.) and (2.) are pretty general complaints that Gammas have about Deltas. However (3.) is an more specific issue.

1. Social etiquette: EIIs are very sensitive to things like politeness, good manners and the avoidance of ebullience and crudity
2. Ideological rigidity: EIIs tend to be view the world through a prism of moral right and wrong, they can be impractical, crusading zealots
3. Indecisiveness: EIIs tend to have trouble prioritizing one idea, activity or person over another, thus committing to a single course of action

[velveteen]

@Cuivienen

I dunno about other EII, but I generally don't care about social etiquette unless I am in a setting where the crudity is affecting another person's wellbeing or if its in any way malicious. Banter is my forte and I tend to do better with people who don't take themselves and their opinions so seriously. I've especially had a difficult time with gammas. They don't appreciate my tendency toward self deprecation and making fun of others. Perhaps the biting sarcasm is a bit much I don't intend to hurt people's feelings, but somehow I do.

EII, just like others, have opinions... I don't care what you believe, as long as it doesn't impede on mine or anyone else's freedom and wellbeing in any way.

100% agree with the last one.

[Spermatozoa]

@Cuivienen

I dunno about other EII, but I generally don't care about social etiquette unless I am in a setting where the crudity is affecting another person's wellbeing or if its in any way malicious. Banter is my forte and I tend to do better with people who don't take themselves and their opinions so seriously. I've especially had a difficult time with gammas. They don't appreciate my tendency toward self deprecation and making fun of others. Perhaps the biting sarcasm is a bit much I don't intend to hurt people's feelings, but somehow I do.

Yes I particularly dislike sarcasm, as I consider it mean-spirited. I never make fun of individual people - only groups, beliefs, things and events. Therefore I don't like banter, which I will interpret as disrespectful and a challenge to my authority.

My humour tends to be shock value stuff about sex, politics, drugs, death, etc. I get annoyed when someone tells me I have affected their well-being because if my humour is even about them personally, it will be complimentary - like flirting, telling them I find them hot. "You know, your tits are so magnetic I'd bet they could cause a car crash."

Like I mentioned in the Gamma Derail thread, the proper response to a comment like this is either innuendo "that's not the only thing I can crash in them" or a sexual challenge of your own "so you think you can get a piece of me?". That kind of thing. But EIIs often just get huffy, outraged and start preaching. I never, ever respond well to that.

If I want to hurt someone's feelings (which is most unusual, I have only ever done this twice), I will go after a personal weakness of theirs and mock them for it, launching a barrage of attacks until they are utterly crushed psychologically.

EII, just like others, have opinions... I don't care what you believe, as long as it doesn't impede on mine or anyone else's freedom and wellbeing in any way.

Well put it this way - if you attack someone personally (e.g. tell them they're a loser, ugly or a failure, that kind of stuff) then you clearly intend to affect their well-being. But if you just voice an opinion they dislike, I don't think they can say you intended to affect their well-being at all.

100% agree with the last one.

You see, we can talk calmly about this and have an interesting discussion. I don't have an issue with every EII I meet or vice versa.

In fact there are a few EIIs on 16types who I'd enjoy getting to know a little more...intimately. Not going to mention any names though, haha. Y'all will have to speculate.

[Spermatozoa]

Contrary to what a lot of people on here may think, I like and respect the strong sense of morality that Fi egos have - I just feel that many of them misdirect their energy. I sense that EII and ESI can be fantastic, devoted partners. With all of that passion, they could be unwaveringly committed to creating a new life together with their loved one. But sadly, so often they get hung up on bullshit social activism and neglect their own basic needs. Many EIIs in particular seem really hostile to men and have a black and white, self-destructive worldview. I have a strong sense of idealism, too, but it is solely focused on my sexual, romantic life. Elsewhere I recognize that you need to be pragmatic and flexible to get ahead and succeed.

Most of my EII criticisms are directed at SO firsts. If you are SP/SX like @thelocust, then you may not relate to the preachy, social justice aspects which I find so annoying.

[velveteen]

@Cuivienen

I don't hate men, I hate misogyny. I have seen what misogyny does to both men and women and it's goddamn terrifying, so sometimes I react negatively to dudes but I'm self aware enough to reflect on whether my behaviour was warranted or not. It's definitely not black and white and anyone who views it like that needs a reality check.

I don't consider myself authority, so banter doesn't bother me.

I can appreciate shock value humour when it concerns criticising social taboos (Eminem style shock value), I’ve engaged in that kind of humour myself. But I don’t tolerate personal slights. For instance, I know a dude who likes trolling people. It’s really irritating and he often crosses the line. He will bring people’s personal lives into question when they criticise his opinions. He’ll mention that they have an eating disorder in front of a group of people that person doesn’t know. Now that’s mean-spirited, imo. I’m very intolerant of that kind of “humour” if you can even call it that.

If I want to hurt someone’s feelings, I play on their vulnerabilities and watch them squirm. I don’t do this usually and more often than not I regret doing it.

Yeah, okay, but can we agree that some opinions are actually really stupid? I get some people like to be devil’s advocate and don’t necessarily agree with everything they spew, but its different when they’re being serious. Racist, homophobic and sexist opinions irritate me and I deem them harmful. I call that shit out.

So about that last point you made… I usually have trouble prioritising myself over others. I may not always know what I want, but I do know what I don’t want and I mould my direction in life according to that.

AM I AN EII YOU'D LIKE TO GET TO KNOW?

[Spermatozoa]

@Cuivienen

I don't hate men, I hate misogyny. I have seen what misogyny does to both men and women and it's goddamn terrifying, so sometimes I react negatively to dudes but I'm self aware enough to reflect on whether my behaviour was warranted or not. It's definitely not black and white and anyone who views it like that needs a reality check.

What are some examples of misogynistic behaviour, to you? That might help me understand.

I don't consider myself authority, so banter doesn't bother me.

I can appreciate shock value humour when it concerns criticising social taboos (Eminem style shock value), I’ve engaged in that kind of humour myself. But I don’t tolerate personal slights. For instance, I know a dude who likes trolling people. It’s really irritating and he often crosses the line. He will bring people’s personal lives into question when they criticise his opinions. He’ll mention that they have an eating disorder in front of a group of people that person doesn’t know. Now that’s mean-spirited, imo. I’m very intolerant of that kind of “humour” if you can even call it that.

It is not trolling to mention somebody's medical information in public. If you do something like that, you have seriously violated their privacy, and you could be sued for damages.

Trolling is generally a form of humour that pokes fun at social taboos, status quo beliefs and values. It is never personal.

If I want to hurt someone’s feelings, I play on their vulnerabilities and watch them squirm. I don’t do this usually and more often than not I regret doing it.

Yeah, okay, but can we agree that some opinions are actually really stupid? I get some people like to be devil’s advocate and don’t necessarily agree with everything they spew, but its different when they’re being serious. Racist, homophobic and sexist opinions irritate me and I deem them harmful. I call that shit out.

There are no stupid opinions, only stupid actions. I don't care too much what you believe; I judge people on what they do or don't do.

AM I AN EII YOU'D LIKE TO GET TO KNOW?

You could send me some sexy pics to help me decide.

[velveteen]

What are some examples of misogynistic behaviour, to you? That might help me understand.

Innate hatred for women, believing they're lesser beings yet still demanding emotional control over them. Being one way in front of them and degrading them behind their back. I believe misogyny manifests due to inequality and power imbalance.

It is not trolling to mention somebody's medical information in public. If you do something like that, you have seriously violated their privacy, and you could be sued for damages.

Trolling is generally a form of humour that pokes fun at social taboos, status quo beliefs and values. It is never personal.

But his intention is to get a rise out of people. I consider that trolling.

There are no stupid opinions, only stupid actions. I don't care too much what you believe; I judge people on what they do or don't do.

Stupid actions manifest from stupid opinions.

You could send me some sexy pics to help me decide.

[Spermatozoa]

Innate hatred for women, believing they're lesser beings yet still demanding emotional control over them. Being one way in front of them and degrading them behind their back. I believe misogyny manifests due to inequality and power imbalance.

In my experience, most misogynists are women. After all, it takes quite an effort for a man to hate someone who he is sexually attracted to.

I am sure you would agree

But his intention is to get a rise out of people. I consider that trolling.

I think the harm that is caused by say, making fun of feminism is orders of magnitude lesser to the harm that is caused by releasing someone's private medical details.

Stupid actions manifest from stupid opinions.

Not necessarily. People will often behave in ways that don't reflect what they claim to believe. Therefore I would say the inverse of your statement is true: good actions do not necessarily manifest from good opinions.

We must remember that an unscrupulous man can sometimes betray himself and do good which he did not intend. Likewise the world has no lack of false messiahs, who are doomed to create a hell on earth while they try to reach heaven.

You never know, a year from now we might be married.

[Rebelondeck]

I should've added to my previous comment that INXjs with their idealistic and perfectionistic ways, tend to overthink things more and thus tend to remain longer in detached states. For work, I had to train myself to keep my thoughts and opinions superficial when in public forums, which was very difficult. I usually took my deep thinking home or back to my office where I wrote follow-up correspondence to the conversations explaining deeper understandings. For home life, this is a poor tactic; I hoped that people who knew me would cut me some slack, but this didn't always work out.......
a.k.a. I/O

[ashlesha]

In my experience, most misogynists are women. After all, it takes quite an effort for a man to hate someone who he is sexually attracted to.

I am sure you would agree

Confusing sex with affection is a rookie mistake

 

[Spermatozoa]

Confusing sex with affection is a rookie mistake

 

LOLOL

[Pole]

@thelocust
If you need to help people then go volunteer. When you try to help grown adults that can help themselves it's going to tick some people off. My rule of thumb for avoiding this (as a helpful person myself) "never do for others what they can do for themselves".

[FDG]

EIIs are not perceived as arrogant. They may be perceived as perfectionistic and indirectly demanding, but arrogance is a property which is hardly compatible with an introvert with Se PoLR.

[Chae]

Can we replace "arrogance" with Introtim Aloofness? Thank you.
Not even the EII with the biggest attitude could make such a bad impression I only wonder whether Beta is quick to judge there with ignoring.

[Bertrand]

i've been called arrogant more than once in my life

maybe I'm not really EII, or maybe its a manifestation of the C in the DCNH, which I feel closest to. or God knows what else. Maybe I'm surrounded by assholes from whom which arrogant is a compliment

arrogant is one of those terms people use to try and even the scales in a situation where they may be feeling inferior; other times the person really is arrogant.. all humans are arrogant in some sense. what it means is hard to catch in objective terms

ultimately I feel like individuals can be arrogant but not types

[Aylen]

Are we doomed to be perceived as arrogant? Is it Fi? Gosh darn it, I just want to help people! I was forced into a lifestyle where I had to fend for myself and figure everything out on my own, so I sympathise with those who are in need of help. But my tendency to go out of my way to help others has given some people the impression that I'm a know it all. I don't intend to be that way, it's just this weird desire to help others; so I attempt to find answers that they are unable to to assist them in some way even if its a field of study I'm not an expert in.

Seeing as it makes some people uncomfortable, I've stepped back, reflected and decided to stop focusing my efforts into others and focusing more on myself and my likes and dislikes.

Anyone have stories about their intentions being misunderstood in this way?

This made me smile because I have seen this in my own EII sister but I would not call it arrogant. I don't know any irl EII I would call arrogant for wanting to help others. I find some IEI to be more arrogant than EII. My sister recently came to the same conclusion as you. I think with her it was a matter of thinking she knew what was best for other people but it was basically based on her own introverted feelings so she was missing that some people did not want the unsolicited help or advice.

But yeah, I have never thought her arrogant for it. A little judgmental sometimes when she saw a problem where the other person saw none but she always meant well. Plus she gets excited about new ideas she has learned and uses Ne to share it which might irritate some people. She has one natural health book that is practically her bible so when I am sick or something she starts sending me tips from it. I don't have the heart to tell her the information isn't helpful for me. Same when my other sister sends me unsolicited health tips. They both value Si. Some things used to bother me but I realize it is only because both care so much, especially the EII and hate to see anyone they care about suffer.

My EII sister always goes out of her way to find solutions too when one of us has a problem. I just think she doesn't tailor her advice to the person as much as she could. No matter, since now she is focusing more on herself, her likes and dislikes without assuming her likes and dislikes are the same as others. I think that might have been the problem all along since it was all filtered through that. Some people, not all, felt unheard or misunderstood by her which is probably the last thing she meant to do. Some people absolutely appreciate her advice and help. I told her to focus on those people. She knows who they are and I believe she does know how to tell the difference even without socionics. She just wasn't filtering them the way she could have been. I think you are doing the right thing focusing on you though. Just listen to your intuition when it comes to helping others, like you are, and it should be fine. She is doing the same.

[Sol]

Are we doomed to be perceived as arrogant?

It's common perception of opposite quadra types.

[velveteen]

It's common perception of opposite quadra types.

And same quadra types! Maybe I really am arrogant.

[velveteen]

@thelocust
If you need to help people then go volunteer. When you try to help grown adults that can help themselves it's going to tick some people off. My rule of thumb for avoiding this (as a helpful person myself) "never do for others what they can do for themselves".

Those are wise words.

But what about grown adults that can't help themselves?

Volunteer work just made me realise a lot of people can't help themselves, including myself. I think at some point though it's a choice to be living the way you are and no one's responsible for your problems. From my experience people who ask for advice don't usually even take the advice until they're ready to, which they would have been with or without your advice. But there's no harm in being there for people, imo.

[Sol]

And same quadra types! Maybe I really am arrogant.

Your quadra should perceive you as friendly and good person. Without significant things which would avert to deal with you.
The most probable - types of those people or your may be other (mistyping is >50%), if you notice such perception. And a few % of people may differ from average, mb in arrogance too.

[Pole]

Those are wise words.

But what about grown adults that can't help themselves?

Volunteer work just made me realise a lot of people can't help themselves, including myself. I think at some point though it's a choice to be living the way you are and no one's responsible for your problems. From my experience people who ask for advice don't usually even take the advice until they're ready to, which they would have been with or without your advice. But there's no harm in being there for people, imo.

Thank you. And about adults that can't help themselves, that's where volunteering (or starting a career that helps people, like something in a medical field) comes into play. Lot's of people need help, it's true. But plenty don't need it or want it.

[Sol]

But plenty don't need it or want it.

all need. the question is which one

[NdFeB08]

This is usually a problem for me; my facial expression and movements are usually seen as intimidating/arrogant, so people will think I'm a hardassed bitch until I speak with them, then after a couple interactions they realize I'm really gentle and only reserved. That said, I rarely ever choose to do so.
Overall, yes, I'd say Fi gives a rather cold outward appearance, so it will generally be up to you to fill the gaps, but it's quite easy to do anyway.

[Froody Blue Gem]

In general, I think I'm the opposite of arrogant, and people see that I have a certain insecurity to me. There are certain areas that I do take pride in, so I definitely have my ups and downs when it comes to self worth. Or I sometimes try to mask the lows with the strengths I take disproportionate pride in. People who really really don't know me that well may get a sense of aloofness, and arrogance could go into that.

Or people often see it for what it is, but I often do feel misunderstood. At this one place I went to, me and a group of other people were told by a supervisor that we need to swallow our pride, and I felt like he got the wrong impression of me. I do struggle to take criticism so that in and of itself kind of does go into it. I won't backtalk but I will look visibly hurt. People may have trouble reading into what's going on in my mind so they draw their own conclusions. I do have high standards for my own projects though, but I don't force them on other people.