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    Default What kind of function is it and why?

    I'm new in socionics world, so I would aske here questions (when I encounter difficulties) to understand better So, can you help me?

    1) What kind of function and why:
    Looks at a situation, takes the main pieces of it and combine them to understand the most likely result, without thinking at previous experiences?

    I would appreciate links, sites etc that support your infos if you enjoy to share. Thank you!

    I'm in doubt between Te and Ni, maybe Ti too

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shapeless View Post
    I'm new in socionics world, so I would aske here questions (when I encounter difficulties) to understand better So, can you help me?

    1) What kind of function and why:
    Looks at a situation, takes the main pieces of it and combine them to understand the most likely result, without thinking at previous experiences?

    I would appreciate links, sites etc that support your infos if you enjoy to share. Thank you!

    I'm in doubt between Te and Ni, maybe Ti too
    probably ti

    source: http://www.sociotype.com/socionics/i...on_elements/Ti

    ''Ti as Leading Function

    The individual views reality through the lens of logic, immediately recognizing the correctness and appropriateness of things and their proper place in reality and in his system of views and behavior. ''



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    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=Carefree_and_farsighted
    Carefree types
    Inclined to solve problems by primarily using that information which is 'at hand'. Accordingly, their solutions are likely to be particular to that situation.
    The search for the solution is implied in the answer.
    “You cannot prepare for everything.”
    (Carefree types are SEI, ILE, LSI, EIE, ESI, LIE, SLI, IEE)

    and Ti

    Quote Originally Posted by Augusta
    Description of Ti from "Dual Nature of Man" by A. Augusta

    We might say that logical feelings convey information about presence or lack of knowledge, comparability and incomparability, and the presence or lack of balance between them, as well as about the space and location of object within it. These feelings are called objective because they do not take into consideration the interests and needs of the person him/herself, but only such correlations of objective qualities. This perceptual element determines a person's ability or inability to see the objective, logical relations between objects or their components.

    When this element is in the leading position, the individual is distinguished by his or her ability to logically evaluate relations of the objective static reality. He also has the ability to change the interrelations between properties of different objects according to his wishes, and through this influence objects themselves as carriers of these properties.
    In other words, to recognize how things are related to one another in objective ways, and ability to reorder and reorganize them. You could also call it "putting pieces together" or "puzzling something out." Taking pieces and combining them, "moving" them about (moving is in quotes because this can all be mental rather than physical, as in a mental reorganization of parts and how they relate to one another.)

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    Thank you guys! To understand well, how Ni and Te would solve the situation and understand the outcome? Curious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shapeless View Post
    Thank you guys! To understand well, how Ni and Te would solve the situation and understand the outcome? Curious.
    Ni in LIE:

    Quote Originally Posted by Filatova
    Ni – Creative function. In order to work rationally it is especially important to plan beforehand so as not to waste any time in vain. A combination of practicality and romanticism is noticeably characteristic in LIE.

    Introverted intuition manifests itself in his irrepressible imagination, the ability to consciously combine events and facts, within his mind, which are incompatible with reality. Possessing a rich imagination allows LIE to habitually view things from a different, unexpected angle. Inventors and rationalizers are often representative of this psycho-type. Such a person can foresee the optimum solution in deciding how to solve a problem; can often find a way out of unusual situations.

    He very much enjoys experimenting with mental and practical activities. He approaches situations as if playing a game, which itself is more important than the task in which he’s engaged. Though something may be more “interesting” than “convenient”, he will try to combine the two whenever such is possible.

    His extroverted intuition is also rather active, he is attracted to novelty in various different areas – mechanics, electronics, sports, new ways of learning… Thus he makes sure that these activities are not assumed in vain: tries to apply, whenever possible, novel ideas to a field of interest. It occurs that even from the unprofitable situations, that he cannot avoid, he will nonetheless manage to benefit.

    The aspiration to allocate resources, in time, in the most rational way is characteristic of LIE. He constantly analyzes everything, which has occurred, predicts relations with different people, and tries to predict the consequences of his actions. Each missed opportunity is felt sharply by him: he applies his best efforts to insure such does not repeat itself again.

    His ability to sense the slightest change in a situation, his fast reactions, his initiative, and his practicality, combined with his creative vein, make him a good businessman and manager. He is able to be prudent and economical in his means, but also to take risks. However, it should be noted that risks, for him, are always thought over and calculated in advance.
    The bolded most fits imo what you described. The difference between Ti and Ni is that Ti is concrete, while Ni is not tied to reality and is dynamic where Ti is static.

    Te in LIE from same link:

    Quote Originally Posted by Filatova
    Te – Program function. A person’s natural state should revolve around his work activity, and LIE, as much as possible, corresponds to this principle. He is the strong worker, works willingly with a sharp understanding and comprehension of each action; therefore he makes everything productively, effectively and with great pleasure.
    LIE – one of the most dynamic psycho-types, he is very active, possesses fast reactions and takes the initiative. He capably calculates his actions so as to be economical. Being engaged in industrial activity he easily translates his thoughts into reality, it is better to put waste to use than to throw it out. Can conceptualize the optimum method of making use of space so that no room is wasted. Thus he precisely comprehends which task is major and which is minor. He attempts to determine the precise order of his preferences: so that minor trifles should not prevent him from carrying out what is deemed the most important task/goal. He applies these same abilities in the realms of his hobbies: should he find something to be impossibly immense he’s able to reasonably limit himself.
    key terms related to Te: optimization, efficiency, productivity

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shapeless View Post
    Thank you guys! To understand well, how Ni and Te would solve the situation and understand the outcome? Curious.
    Ni is not per se about solving situations, its a way of ''gathering'' information.
    Ni egos rely on their imagination as a way dealing with stuff, instead of actually accumulating information in the real world through sensing.

    Te egos would rely on their huge database of information. you could say Te is inductive reasoning and Ti deductive.
    Te judges a situation by comparing it to previously acquired factual knowledge, then making the best decision.
    Ti judges a situation by comparing it to an internal framework of logic, usually set by a couple of general laws of logic, not by huge amounts of factual information.
    Ti is a natural sense of what makes sense and what doesnt. Te is extroverted, so relies more on external information to compare a situation to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shapeless View Post
    1) What kind of function and why:
    Looks at a situation, takes the main pieces of it and combine them to understand the most likely result, without thinking at previous experiences?
    This is not just one function. The challange with socionics is that the functions are real psychic objects rooted in human biology and dont necessary fit just any task. There are usually many strong and weak functions involved in common tasks.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    This is not just one function. The challange with socionics is that the functions are real psychic objects rooted in human biology and dont necessary fit just any task. There are usually many strong and weak functions involved in common tasks.
    Ok, which kind of functions do you think are involved in this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    Ni is not per se about solving situations, its a way of ''gathering'' information.
    Ni egos rely on their imagination as a way dealing with stuff, instead of actually accumulating information in the real world through sensing.
    I can imagine several meanings for this sentence, but I would appreciate an explanation on the process that Ni uses specifically to reach the problem solution.

    Thank you all for replying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    you could say Te is inductive reasoning and Ti deductive.
    I think it is the other way around, to my understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    Te judges a situation by comparing it to previously acquired factual knowledge, then making the best decision.
    Te does care about the result and considers many approaches to reach that result.

    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    Ti judges a situation by comparing it to an internal framework of logic, usually set by a couple of general laws of logic, not by huge amounts of factual information.
    Ti is about build consistent and deterministic laws of logic.
    Ti does not care much about the correctness of a result of logical reasons. It's about how consistent a chain of logic operations is.

    To my understanding of the theory:

    Ni: narrows down information + Te: considers many approaches to reach goal or conclusion
    Ne: considers many options, expands on information + Ti: links information in a way that is logical consistent and free of self-contradictions

    deduction-vs-induction.png
    Last edited by WinnieW; 10-03-2017 at 03:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shapeless View Post
    I can imagine several meanings for this sentence, but I would appreciate an explanation on the process that Ni uses specifically to reach the problem solution.
    Say a Ni ego wants to try to figure out what someone's thinking. Instead of asking them questions about what's on their mind or observing behavior, Ni might test the waters, try to get a sense of their personality, and then imagine what someone with that personality would be thinking right now. They obtain information about the other person's thought process through imagination.
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    That's the Ni + Fe perspective of an IEI type what you decribe, Stellafara. Ni + Te is probabbly a bit different.

    My own understanding of Ni is that Ni is able to see multiple (at least two) different conditions, either of people or objects or situations.
    It builds a superposition of them, recognize similarities and differences as patterns.

    Two different states are often seperated by time therefore the socionics description of Ni as intuition of time.
    Does my understanding match the perspective, Number 9 large and Stellafara, you both have Ni in your ego block?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    My own understanding of Ni is that Ni is able to see multiple (at least two) different conditions, either of people or objects or situations.
    It builds a superposition of them, recognize similarities and differences as patterns.
    I'd say this is decently accurate, yeah. It's like when you head over to the eye doctor and they flick a bunch of different diopters of glass back and forth in your field of vision. Ni + Te/Fe is taking these points of view and layering them until you reach an accurate image.

    I see the time component of Ni as more deterministic than anything. Ni's whole cognitive process involves seeing the world as a layered array of preconditions and then extrapolating conclusions from there. That translates to vivid "if-then" thinking since it uses the same process. Thus Ni has a strong image of cause and effect.
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    Te and Ti both are making judgements - Te on a cost-benefit kind of scale, and Ti on a structural basis. Te: Is it worth it? Ti: Does it fit?
    Ne and Ni on the other hand both are perceptions - Ni: Where is this leading? Ne: What other options are there?

    An LIE has strong Te, Ni and Ne, which is why Filatova's description of them makes sense, as they are considering options and alternatives, imagining where each would lead, and making a judgement on what the most effective action would be.

    An LSI on the other hand has weak Ne, but strong Se and Si. Their thinking is more convergent and present-minded, and once they decide a way to tackle a problem they tend to "lock in" on it and push through even if there might be other ways to go about it. They also are more likely to get caught up in details, and the minute ways something does or doesn't fit or match up with something else. They can be pedantic about their structure making sense iow.

    Those tendencies in the LSI can make them appear "close-minded" but this isn't necessarily true, as they can be very curious and interested in a variety of things and very open to learning, they just tend to once set on a course to stay in it doggedly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stellafera View Post
    I'd say this is decently accurate, yeah.
    Thank you for confirming my assumption. I wasn't entirely sure. Ni is a pretty weak function of myself but I'm aware it exists. I don't use it on daily basis. My understanding of this function is still limited.
    It actually reminded me of the way quantum computers work. Basicly the same principle.

    I guess trong Ne users might cause distortions or something a like that in the perception of Ni users because it is an unpredictible influence to delevopment of flow of patterns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stellafera View Post
    I see the time component of Ni as more deterministic than anything. Ni's whole cognitive process involves seeing the world as a layered array of preconditions and then extrapolating conclusions from there. That translates to vivid "if-then" thinking since it uses the same process. Thus Ni has a strong image of cause and effect.
    What I like to know is.
    Can Ni really see Condition that will happen in the future or does Ni extrapolate a future condition based on past conditions?
    Or simply asked: To what extend is Ni able to foresee future events?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    Can Ni really see Condition that will happen in the future or does Ni extrapolate a future condition based on past conditions?
    Or simply asked: To what extend is Ni able to foresee future events?
    The latter. I'm not sure how one could see the future without extrapolating from the past. Otherwise you're just making stuff up. Maybe it makes more sense to Ne.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stellafera View Post
    The latter. I'm not sure how one could see the future without extrapolating from the past. Otherwise you're just making stuff up. Maybe it makes more sense to Ne.
    I do what is bold when I create. If I create something that needs specific conditions, I will make those conditions happen in a way that is more or less intricate.

    But is something different than what are you describing, because you are out of the process in some way, my way is more in... anyway if someone that looks from outside can be able to puzzle my actions, could see what will be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stellafera View Post
    I'm not sure how one could see the future without extrapolating from the past.
    Answer of a Ne-user: Crystal ball, yeah.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stellafera View Post
    Maybe it makes more sense to Ne.
    For an Ne-user time does not really matter.
    An Ne-user starts with a real condition but the following condition(s) doesn't have to be real conditions. Ne is about multiple ways a situation or people or objects can develope. The imaginary conditions are not real unless you chose one of them and make one of them real by yourself.
    Ne is also good at spotting similar patterns in different objects, people and situations, located at different places, not separated by time.
    Last edited by WinnieW; 10-03-2017 at 05:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shapeless View Post
    I'm new in socionics world, so I would aske here questions (when I encounter difficulties) to understand better So, can you help me?

    1) What kind of function and why:
    Looks at a situation, takes the main pieces of it and combine them to understand the most likely result, without thinking at previous experiences?

    I would appreciate links, sites etc that support your infos if you enjoy to share. Thank you!

    I'm in doubt between Te and Ni, maybe Ti too
    This sounds Ti (combining pieces) and Ne (conjecture, the main pieces, what is "most likely").

    Te is generally based on observations of what does or does not work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shapeless View Post
    I do what is bold when I create. If I create something that needs specific conditions, I will make those conditions happen in a way that is more or less intricate.
    I think that's natural when you're creating; you are making stuff up. In those situations I think of the idea, and, if I want it to happen, I extrapolate backwards to figure out the steps necessary to get to that point. Process usually goes

    1. New idea! Conditions X, Y, Z are true of new idea.
    2. What conditions A, B, C am I working under right now?
    3. What would need to change to get me from A to X? How can I use the resources I have right now to make steps towards my goal?
    4. Brainstorm
    5. Pick amongst brainstormed options
    6. Execute plan
    7. Achieve X, Y, Z.

    I don't view this as "seeing the future" because I am actively creating said future. It's like predicting that if you drop a glass of water, sharp shards and liquid will appear on the floor in 1-2 seconds. Of course they will.

    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    For an Ne-user time does not really matter.
    An Ne-user starts with a real condition but the following condition(s) doesn't have to be real conditions. Ne is about multiple ways a situation or people or objects can develope. The imaginary conditions are not real unless you chose one of them and make one of them real by yourself.
    Ne is also good at spotting similar patterns in different objects, people and situations, located at different places, not separated by time.
    Answer of a Ne-Ignoring: that's basic af
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    2) What's the main difference between Process oriented people and Goal oriented people?

    3) Also, someone that uses to think in consequences, is using a T process or an N process? I can't divide them properly.
    Last edited by Shapeless; 10-20-2017 at 08:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shapeless View Post
    2) What's the main difference between Process oriented people and Goal oriented people?

    3) Also, someone that uses to think in consequences, is using a T process or an N process? I can't divide them properly.
    Can you be more specific? This could mean a lot of things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shapeless View Post
    2) What's the main difference between Process oriented people and Goal oriented people?
    I see it that way:
    - a process oriented person gets motivated by doing something or feels best while doing something, the goal is by the way.
    - a goal oriented person focus on the goal and is motivated by reaching the goal, the process itself is not that important.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Can you be more specific? This could mean a lot of things.
    My father said to me that when he is in a new situation or with new people, he always thinks at every outcome: if I do this, then this will happen... etc. Also, he tries to think at 'what all the pieces of this situation have in common each other?'. The reply is always something abstract, or not 'concrete', like he is explaining to me through a function that is a judging one and not a perceiving one. In this way he explained to me he can see the 'main theme' of a situation/person, because a lot of variables come in to divide each situation.

    I come from MBTI, but I noticed that socionics is quite different than it, so...
    In MBTI this behavior is Ti (L). In socionics is Ni (T) + Fe (E)/Te (P).

    He also uses past experience (patterns: when this happens, this thing and this thing happens too) to understand at first look what someone/something is likely to behave/evolve. He says that there are cyclic behaviors, that you can observe always in situations and people and be sure that when they happens, you have a specific outcome. He remains always open to facts that can confirm or not his hunches. Anyway, he thinks in consequences and behaves basing himself on them.

    And this is Ni (T) for sure in socionics...

    What I'm observing?
    Last edited by Shapeless; 10-22-2017 at 10:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    I see it that way:
    - a process oriented person gets motivated by doing something or feels best while doing something, the goal is by the way.
    - a goal oriented person focus on the goal and is motivated by reaching the goal, the process itself is not that important.
    I'm more a process one, but if I can't see the utility of doing something is not good.

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    I'm the process-oriented one either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    I'm the process-oriented one either.
    I think is because you are Ne subtype. I'm leading toward being LII-Ne too for me, because is the only one option that fits me. Anyway, I'm learning on the net about socionics and I'm analyzing others behavior too, especially the one that is similar to mine...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shapeless View Post
    My father said to me that when he is in a new situation or with new people, he always thinks at every outcome: if I do this, then this will happen... etc. Also, he tries to think at 'what all the pieces of this situation have in common each other?'. The reply is always something abstract, or not 'concrete', like he is explaining to me through a function that is a judging one and not a perceiving one. In this way he explained to me he can see the 'main theme' of a situation/person, because a lot of variables come in to divide each situation.

    I come from MBTI, but I noticed that socionics is quite different than it, so...
    In MBTI this behavior is Ti (L). In socionics is Ni (T) + Fe (E)/Te (P).

    He also uses past experience (patterns: when this happens, this thing and this thing happens too) to understand at first look what someone/something is likely to behave/evolve. He says that there are cyclic behaviors, that you can observe always in situations and people and be sure that when they happens, you have a specific outcome. He remains always open to facts that can confirm or not his hunches. Anyway, he thinks in consequences and behaves basing himself on them.

    And this is Ni (T) for sure in socionics...

    What I'm observing?
    consequences = Ni
    main theme = Ne
    cyclic laws and patterns ("this 100% follows from that") = Ti
    what all the pieces of a situation have in common with each other = TiNe

    In general this sounds like LII thinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    consequences = Ni
    main theme = Ne
    cyclic laws and patterns ("this 100% follows from that") = Ti
    what all the pieces of a situation have in common with each other = TiNe

    In general this sounds like LII thinking.
    It seems I haven't a good grasp of Ni (T) on socionics model.

    I've understood that Ni takes the whole situation and acts unconsciously to understand the meaning of the situation, creating abstract correlations between the pieces of the situation itself. The meaning is always one, because in every way you pattern the pieces, the outcome is always the same.
    Ni thinks at consequences of that understanding the pattern that carried the situation on till some point.

    Is this accurate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shapeless View Post
    It seems I haven't a good grasp of Ni (T) on socionics model.

    I've understood that Ni takes the whole situation and acts unconsciously to understand the meaning of the situation, creating abstract correlations between the pieces of the situation itself. The meaning is always one, because in every way you pattern the pieces, the outcome is always the same.
    Ni thinks at consequences of that understanding the pattern that carried the situation on till some point.

    Is this accurate?
    This sounds far too generalized. Ni is simply about evaluating consequences, like, if you don't lock your car then it's gonna get stolen. Or, public opinion is turning against the ruler so it's only a matter of time before he is overthrown.

    Once you start talking about "patterning pieces" and general laws then you are in Ti land. Ni doesn't need to break things down per se, it just needs to "pick up on" whatever is meaningful or consequential. The Ti here could be part of your own thinking or way of viewing things rather than what you're trying to describe.

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