ENFps acting 'tough' and courageous, mimicking ESTps and ESFps

[JuJu]

Justin,

I was thinking about this, and I have another question: for the introverted types, does for example, Ni or Fi ever just jump out at you? If it does, I think it indicates that the theory behind brain typing is wrong; the socionics functions are a better representation than the MBTI functions that brain typing uses. Keep in mind that Niednagel typed people the way I described without even having to consider the underlying functions for years. He also correlates the functions with certain areas of the brain, but I think this is far from being proven true.

Jason

What’s goin on Jason? : ) This is a really good question—honestly, I’ve never thought about it before… The introverted functions do jump out at me, but in different ways than the extraverted ones… I’ll try to describe it.

Before getting into it—maybe this goes without saying, but Socionics functions didn’t start jumping out at me until I’d been studying this stuff for years—three or so—and nothin was ‘jumping’ until four or five months ago, haha… It’s taken a lot of trial-and-error (being wrong,) to become fairly confident, and I’ve got a way to go before I become as accurate as I want to be… But sorry to get off topic.

The extraverted functions are sometimes obvious, visually speaking—for example, the look of Ne base or Fe base is distinctive… (I’m thinking about those two b/c I just watched Leon and Lucy’s video.) The introverted ones jump out, but in more subtle ways. For example, Fi: it jumps out when someone reacts to something—it’s contextual, not something easy to discern from a photo—for example, if someone’s smiling: why? Si is even more subtle and contextual—so much so that visually, sometimes I can identify it easier by noticing what’s lacking.

And I totally agree with you—Socionics functions are a much better representation of reality than MBTI... MBTI seems superficial by comparison. Definitely.

Despite its MBTI base, BT is thoughtful and often accurate at typing athletes. (Another virtue is that Niednagel seems willing to incorporate new scientific discoveries into his theories… As you say though, they're far from being proven true. Haha)

JN seems less accurate at typing non-athletes, e.g. he types G.W. Bush as ENTJ. In Socionics, G.W. Bush is ISFj--not his policies or role, but his underlying personality... I don’t know if that’s something JN missed b/c he was attempting to analyze Bush's motor skills and didn't have much to go on, or if he just didn't put much thought into that typing... Regardless, that seems representative of some of his non-athlete typings--for me, that makes BT a mixed bag.

Peace, -Justin.

[jewels]

So recently two people I've known for quite some time ended up being ENFps, when they really appear like ESTps.

By that, I mean they appear decisive, forceful, they end relationships without really talking about them again (no ENFp confusion/regret, etc), and they talk kind of boldly and (to me) appear to use Se. I found both of them to be a bit intimidating, as they were blunt also -- I liked and respected them, but was wary of them a bit.

Then it turns out both are ENFps, and I wonder if they are using Se anyway, and as another ENFp I "buy" it when in fact Se egos might not "buy it."

Anyone have a similar experience? Thoughts?

I know I've at times tried to be more ESTp-like when selling something, and I have attracted a fair amount of INFps, but would say I come across as introverted-ish or social/outgoing feeler sensitive type person much more than anything ESTp-ish.

[Beautiful sky]

With people who have Se strength, they understand the nature of this function and use it judiciously with finess; so yes, ENFp can seem like ESTp because to others the incapibility of using Se properly does produce odd effects. Lack of understanding for the function and the proper way of using them produces noticible effects in interaction. Get a ESTp to interact with the ENFp and you can see the functions uncover themselves.

On the forum I appear as though I may be pushy but in reality I am not; that's just Se PoLR and the way it appears.

[JWC3]

Anyone have a similar experience? Thoughts?

Um... I just think that if you are getting SLEs and IEEs mixed up you have to be doing something wrong someplace. I mean that's where I stand but I'm open to be overwhelmed by mass opinion if every one is having this problem.

Perhaps your defining Se incorrectly? Or rather it seems that you have a good grasp of that but a poor one of what an IEE is.

[jewels]

Um... I just think that if you are getting SLEs and IEEs mixed up you have to be doing something wrong someplace. I mean that's where I stand but I'm open to be overwhelmed by mass opinion if every one is having this problem.

Perhaps your defining Se incorrectly? Or rather it seems that you have a good grasp of that but a poor one of what an IEE is.

I disagree. Certain types can appear like other types when not acting like themselves. For instance, I know INFps who act very similarly to me on the surface in social situations. But only in other situations do they reveal their true nature.

You can't see what's not shown to you, if someone chooses to hide it. And not everyone is comfortable exposing themselves truly and completely.

I find it kind of insulting that your answer is that I'm just confused, versus there being a reason for confusion. It seems overly simplistic.

[JWC3]

I disagree. Certain types can appear like other types when not acting like themselves. For instance, I know INFps who act very similarly to me on the surface in social situations. But only in other situations do they reveal their true nature.

You can't see what's not shown to you, if someone chooses to hide it. And not everyone is comfortable exposing themselves truly and completely.

I find it kind of insulting that your answer is that I'm just confused, versus there being a reason for confusion. It seems overly simplistic.

Oh yeah sure, certain types can seem like other types. However the further away from an individuals actual type you get the less likely they are to behave like that type. I.E. Gammas don't act like Alphas and Deltas don't act like Betas, but Betas do act like other Betas and so on and so fourth. I highly doubt that a beta ST would ever act like a Delta NF because for some reason they wish to hide their "True nature." In fact the idea that any Beta ST would feel the need to conform their interpersonal behavior to suit any situation seems almost laughable.

For example, I'm a Beta ST. I'm often rude an abrasive, this is almost always the case and when forced into a situation where I should have to "Tone down" my behavior instead of taking it easy and conforming I often lash out and behave even worse than before. I take people expecting me to change as a personal affront, and therefore I don't. Essentially I'm me all the time, with no exceptions.

I'm pretty sure this isn't the case for Delta NFs who often try to please people at their own expense. Which is nice and all but at the same time if Delta NFs act like Beta STs and Beta STs never act like Delta NFs it should be easy to tell which is which. If any Delta-esq behavior is exhibited it's Delta, if only Beta-esq behavior is exhibited it's Beta.

[jewels]

jewels, you're absolutely right, i've had the same experience. this comes to mind, btw:
(From Rick's):
"In formal or unfamiliar situations, IEEs typically try at first to appear very organized, controlled, “with it,” and mobilized for action. They hide their usual spontaneity and warmth and put on the controlled, serious mask of a resolute, action-oriented person. They do this to avoid potentially painful criticism from representatives of society at large (i.e. from the strangers they are dealing with). This state of mind is emotionally taxing, and after they are sure the people they are dealing with have accepted them and don’t intend to criticize them, IEEs loosen up and allow themselves once again to be spontaneous, frivolous, friendly, witty, and engagingly enthusiastic about their personal interests.

When IEEs are around people with strong desires and a commanding presence (leading extraverted sensing), they unwittingly copy or challenge the person, in a sense showing that “they can do it, too.” If attacked verbally or physically threatened in a forceful form, they instinctively respond in the same spirit rather than immediately backing down. At other times, their aggressiveness and forcefulness may flare up because of irritation, but they use these tools ineffectively and rarely achieve their goal using them (unless the other party takes pity on the irritated IEE and decides to back down to preserve the IEE’s own sanity)."

Wow this perfectly explains it!! Thanks!!

Interestingly, once I figured out they were actually IEEs, they sorta softened a bit. For instance, this guy shifted from being almost a bit cocky to more Jude Law-ish. Was very interesting to see.

I wonder if I was actually acting a bit like the second paragraph you posted, which would further egg them on to continue acting that way, and etc. But when I made it "safe" to be IEE, they dropped the act (and perhaps even I did as well?). Interesting.

[tereg]

I wrote this section on the Wikisocion for the manifestation of in IEE's. Perhaps you can see some of these traits in the people you know?

3. Extraverted Sensing

IEEs have the capability and ability to be direct and firm with others in such activities as giving direct commands or making categorical statements about things perceived. However, the period of time when this occurs in an IEE is generally short-lived. As soon as the IEE starts to think about and starts to seriously consider the negative connotations of their directness or firmness ( ), for example, fear of instilling fear in another person in such a way that it would cause the person to be timid to or even scared to approach the IEE thereby distorting the personal bonds the IEE has with the person ( ), the IEE will back away from making such statements. Therefore these direct and categorical statements are quite difficult for an IEE to make, even if the IEE understands the benefits of being direct or firm with others, such as the benefits of being firm or direct with children in parenthood.

If an IEE is directly challenged or if an IEE observes a task a person demonstrates that is subsequently performed by the IEE or a group that the IEE is in (such as a teacher showing a classroom how to put together a widget, and the classroom then is instructed to put together their own widget), the IEE will consciously want to show their propensity and ability in performing the task as good as, if not better or faster than the original person or at least better than the group that the IEE is in. Anything less is considered a failure. IEEs will want to show proficiency in any task that is given to them, even if novice failure is understood. This, again is to demonstrate visibly to others that "I can do it" or "I can do this satisfactorily". Failing at accomplishing this and then subsequently being shown how to do the task is embarrassing for the IEE since they feel like they "should" have been able to accomplish the task if they were shown how to do the task at least once.

IEEs will struggle with things that require sustained willpower and self-motivation. Because of fluctuating interest levels in self-pursuits, these tasks are difficult to sustain. These tasks include (but are not limited to) staying motivated to keep a workout regimen, sticking with a diet, sticking to a routine of doing a particular errand at the same time periodically, and other similar tasks. If the willpower is not there, it cannot be artificially manufactured to get the IEE to "push through". Concordantly, attempts by other people to get the IEE to "push through" is met with resistance. Though, it may be that the IEE will heed the call begrudgingly, this is not sustainable; the IEE will find a way out if this external push persists.

[Beautiful sky]

I wrote this section on the Wikisocion for the manifestation of in IEE's. Perhaps you can see some of these traits in the people you know?

Do you relate to that statement?

@Jewels
Mercutio is ESTp and he knows how to drag my Se and roll on it so to say.

[jewels]

JWC3, yes I agree you appear "rude and abrasive" but not all Beta STs are that way. I've known at least 2 ESTps who, despite have a raunchy sense of humor, are VERY considerate of others, and even rather sensitive under the exterior (I wouldn't consider them rude at all).

Same goes for ISTjs. I have a couple of ISTj friends, and though they are very take charge, they are by NO means rude and have professional jobs which require lots of tact. They're actually very classy and refined b

And I don't think you can speak for ALL of Beta btw. You're just one person after all.

[jewels]

awesome Tereg, thanks!

And Martisa's comment also makes sense to me.

[tereg]

Do you relate to that statement?

I do.

[Beautiful sky]

I do.

I have thought of it and I have to say it: Interesting.

[consentingadult]

I don't recall ever haven mistaken IEEs for SLEs. In fact, I think it's more likely to mistake IEEs who use their super-ego block too much, for EIEs.

I can say, however, that IEEs are more likely to use Se when dealing with ILIs and to a much lesser extent IEIs, types who seem to elicit Se responses.

[Skeptic]

Well they're both irrational extroverts and as a result of the EP temperament, so in that way they can look very similiar on the surface.

[krieger]

ESTp and ENFp, beside both being EP types, have the Negative/Result/Static property in common (other types with this property are INTj and ISFj). This makes them look slightly more stable and calm than the other two EP types. I can recall several cases of ENFp and ESTp that look outright calm in a general sense.

I have two ENFps in my direct surroundings that I have passingly considered typing ESTp for this reason. They just didn't seem chaotic in quite the same way as ENTps are, and were very clearly not ESFp.

The Jayne Cobb character from Firefly is someone I type as ESTp, with ENFp as the next best possibility (although distant). His stubborn refusal to accept situations prudently can often both be interpreted as hell-bent focussed Ti and as lack of Ti. John Travolta is also probably ENFp, but has ESTp'ish moments:

Jayne Cobb (fictional character; actor typed the same):


John Travolta (asked: "how can you stay so cool"; exactly what I mean):

[somavision]

With people who have Se strength, they understand the nature of this function and use it judiciously with finess; so yes, ENFp can seem like ESTp because to others the incapibility of using Se properly does produce odd effects. Lack of understanding for the function and the proper way of using them produces noticible effects in interaction. Get a ESTp to interact with the ENFp and you can see the functions uncover themselves.
On the forum I appear as though I may be pushy but in reality I am not; that's just Se PoLR and the way it appears.

I agree, I found the bolded part to be particularly true and relevant to all types, in that interacting with a superego relation will as you said uncover the true functions.

[JWC3]

JWC3, yes I agree you appear "rude and abrasive" but not all Beta STs are that way. I've known at least 2 ESTps who, despite have a raunchy sense of humor, are VERY considerate of others, and even rather sensitive under the exterior (I wouldn't consider them rude at all).

Same goes for ISTjs. I have a couple of ISTj friends, and though they are very take charge, they are by NO means rude and have professional jobs which require lots of tact. They're actually very classy and refined b

And I don't think you can speak for ALL of Beta btw. You're just one person after all.

Your misinterpreting what I'm trying to say. Me being rude and abrasive is just an example. The point behind which is that in general beta ST behavior is universal. I.E. I'm always rude and abrasive, your LSIs are always refined and classy, your SLEs are raunchy and sensitive ect. As opposed to Delta NF behavior which is often more mailable and dependent upon the people around them. So if a person shows a willingness and ability to change their personal behavior to suit another persons tastes they are probably not Beta ST. That's not saying that since generally Betas are more set in their ways they often are caught in situations where they are forced to change their behavior but refuse. I doubt that your LSIs would stop being refined and classy simply because some one implied or demanded that they should and the same goes for my own offensive nature.

As for speaking for all of Beta, I acknowledge that what I'm saying could very well be retarded, and I'm open to be proven wrong. The problem is that I'll only consent that I'm wrong after some one understands what I'm trying to say, which I don't think you do. That's not a slight against you, I acknowledge that I may just be communicating what I'm trying to say ineffectively. That's why I kept trying to elaborate my point, in hopes that I'll finally say something that you understand. And further more, I'm SLE. I see the world and every issue contained in it in black and white, because of this I often speak in universals or ultimatums. I recognize that his may not be the most effective way to communicate a point but that's just how I talk.

[consentingadult]

And further more, I'm SLE. I see the world and every issue contained in it in black and white, because of this I often speak in universals or ultimatums. I recognize that his may not be the most effective way to communicate a point but that's just how I talk.

Don't worry, it will get better after 40!

[Satan]

Don't worry, it will get better after 40!

you don't know that. he may be dead by then.

[consentingadult]

you don't know that. he may be dead by then.

He/she could very well be, but predicting his/her future was not the purpose of my comment

[Mattie]

I read some of the beginning posts, and I have mixed feelings, agreeing with some here and others there. My first reaction was that there might be something to the fact that SeTi is the super-ego block, so maybe there are situations where an NeFi will feel and resort to this block and appear SeTi-ish, put use it rather short-lived and/or poorly; I don't think this is completely out of the question. I think types take on the qualities of other types as they appear in Model A, so an NeFi could possibly be a shorthand version for saying an NeFi ego-SeTi super-ego-SiTe super-ID-NiFe ID type. So in certain situations a NeFi could take on traits of an SeTi, SiTe, and NiFe when these blocks become active/needed.

From personal experience, I think someone who watched me in certain work situation might see me as an NeFi-SeTi blend, I'm way more forceful and detached, among other things, than I usually am. On the other hand, I wouldn't rule out the fact that it might just be personality traits that are still possible for NeFi. Especially with my experiences with SeFi, I have found that =/= aggression and force, and shouldn't necessarily be used when typing them. It's possible that these are just rather forward and coercive NeFi, and that's just how their personality arrived even if it is believed to be outside of the correlated behavior expected for NeFi.

ETA:

The Jayne Cobb character from Firefly is someone I type as ESTp, with ENFp as the next best possibility (although distant). His stubborn refusal to accept situations prudently can often both be interpreted as hell-bent focussed Ti and as lack of Ti.

I loved Firefly <3 If I had to type Jayne, it'd be SeTi. Large use of and had the general traits of an leading.

[Minde]

I know an ENFp who is a security guard, and so has to act tough and decisive as a part of the job. People who have seen her work say that to first look at her you wouldn't think she's all that tough, but she can certainly hold her own when it comes to confrontation and even physical altercations. But security and similar police-like work has a large psychological component, where being able to communicate with, understand, and relate to people can be vital, so that may be a factor in why she's done as well as she has. She does want to eventually leave that kind of work, though (currently she's studying medicine).

[Suz]

I know an ENFp who is a security guard, and so has to act tough and decisive as a part of the job. People who have seen her work say that to first look at her you wouldn't think she's all that tough, but she can certainly hold her own when it comes to confrontation and even physical altercations. But security and similar police-like work has a large psychological component, where being able to communicate with, understand, and relate to people can be vital, so that may be a factor in why she's done as well as she has. She does want to eventually leave that kind of work, though (currently she's studying medicine).

Sounds so much like me, when i'm in a stressful job. I'll do what the job requires me to in order to do justice to those I am serving, including invoking Se role if need be, but I will be looking for the best and fastest way out and into a more suitable environment for me.

Medicine brings with it a whole other psychological component to it. She will find out once she's on the wards and in residency. Nothing an IEE can't ultimately handle though.

The other thing I learned through reflecting back on my experiences through the lens of socionics is, how happy she will be will also depend on what quadra people she ends up having to work with are in. That's life though. And that's one of the big challenges of medical training--learning how to deal effectively with lots of different personalities.

[Nevero]

i've seen this with an IEE friend. he'll make threats and come up with sadistic and crazy comments, but it's a defense of sorts and an intuitive compensation for his weak sensing. it's his way of signaling to other guys "don't mess with me" and preempting anyone from pushing him around by creating these kinds of bloody and savage images for them. i typed him as Se at first until i realized that it was sheer talk on his part.

[suedehead]

I don't think I've ever aspired to be a tough guy, or a gutter type. I tried to be more like an SEE-Fi or Se-HA if anything. Understated and likeable.