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    Default How would an EII/INFj react to...

    to:

    1) Things not going their way
    2) People hurting them

    ?

    - Is there any chance an INFj might threaten to leave a relationship if he/she does not get what he/she wants?
    - Have any INFjs responded with childish tantrums just to get what they wanted?
    - Have any INFjs tried to get their offenders to learn their lessons and not repeat their offenses, by doing/saying something hurtful in return to the offenders? (Creating emotional drama on purpose to make sure that the offenders would learn their lessons and not commit the same mistakes again)
    Last edited by Pastel; 09-15-2017 at 07:24 AM.

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    in my personal experience, EIIs have a long fuse. (Ij temperament + Se PoLR + Delta quadra, which discourages wild displays of emotion)

    I rarely see EIIs blow their lid for their own sake. like you said, it's usually to make a point to the perpetrator(s). it's like a guilt-trip designed to change people or situations for the better, which usually comes at the expense of themselves. it rarely happens, but when it does, it burns itself into your memory. I think the trick here is that you can feel "it". you know you've taken advantage of their benevolence, time and time again, so you quietly anticipate their staunch indignation, but it just doesn't happen. so you take precautionary measures to ensure that it never does. it's interesting how EIIs "manipulate" people and situations this way. it's probably less refined for younger representatives of this type, but it's common among my EII friends.

    It's not that I think they're saints. I bet they get angry when they're mistreated, too, but in general I do think it's taken more seriously due to its scarcity.

    https://vimeo.com/129286088 (11:27-12:11)

    what you're describing sounds more like IEI territory.
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    - Is there any chance an INFj might threaten to leave a relationship if he/she does not get what he/she wants?
    Threaten? Yes. do they really want to leave? No. They always seek a way to stay with the person even if they don't get what they want if they are interested in you. They will always be there if you reach to them even if the relationahip has ups and downs. Its more usual that the other person is the one who decide to leave without looking back. EIIs rarely end up relationships. They get angry and pretend to leave and cut off the communication but this is just like a game, they will talk back to the person when the other approach. Its part of their ethical game guesd, to call the attention of the person whom they feel is not being enough attentive. Its important have into account that their romantic style is childlike.


    - Have any INFjs responded with childish tantrums just to get what they wanted?

    More or less yes. More than tantrum I'd call it drama or a scene, specially on females (I've known males that can do some kind of tantrums, though).

    - Have any INFjs tried to get their offenders to learn their lessons and not repeat their offenses, by doing/saying something hurtful in return to the offenders? (To create emotional drama so that the offenders would learn their lessons and not commit the same mistakes again)
    They can say hurtful things and act passive aggressive, specially with words, but I've never felt like its for the sake of reeducation, it seemed to me more like revenge. 'If you did X to me, I'll do X (or Y) to you too'. They've never stopped afterwards btw (I mean they'll do the nasty thing or say the nasty stuff like forever). Thats something that I dislike about having long relationships with EIIs.



    Btw, ime, IEIs tend to do different kind of 'drama' or tantrums, which is more like picking up fights or being defensive when they dislike someone. They don't tend to be so passive aggressive, they turn to domination and aggression (they don't see it this way, they say they are just defending from injustice and that all what they do is nothing in comparation with all what they suffer...that kind of discourse, they are victims, after all). Source: my family experience with IEIs.
    Last edited by Tommy; 09-14-2017 at 09:52 PM.
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    1) Things not going their way
    It depends on the situation, but usually I act in a calm civil manner. Try to assess why things didn’t go the way I hoped and use that information to act differently next time to get the desired outcome I want.
    Sure it is disappointing when things don’t go the way I hoped, but it’s not fair to take it out on other people when it usually isn’t their fault.
    There are rare exceptions to this though if it’s something I felt that I truly deserved and worked hard for but fell short. Then I can take my upset out on other people.

    2) People hurting them
    Now this situation, I can react quite sharply in contrast to the above situation. If people hurt me physically, I either try to get the hell out of there to escape and call the police. If I’m provoked enough, it’s possible I would hurt them back. If it’s in self-defense, I would likely hurt them back if I felt strong enough or there was no other escape. Normally I hate violence though and it’s a last resort for me.

    With emotional hurt, how I react, depends on how I’m hurt emotionally. Regardless of the situation, my feelings are hurt easily and it’s difficult for me to just let things go. If they openly insult me, I will probably insult them back. If I feel hurt but I’m not sure if the other person intended to hurt me or not, then I will feel quite anxious with many thoughts running through my head. Should I confront the person about it? Should I just wait and see what happens with this person in the future? How should I approach this person? I think in the past I was more inclined to not say anything with anger seething inside but nowadays I think I’m better about setting these kinds of boundaries and if I feel hurt I let others know I feel that way and try to work something out so it doesn’t happen again.

    - Is there any chance an INFj might threaten to leave a relationship if he/she does not get what he/she wants?
    It depends on what it is. No one can get what they want all the time and if you’re getting what you want at the expense of someone else’s wants, then that’s just selfish. However, if you are having to sacrifice your own wants all the time for the sake of the relationship, that’s not healthy and not worth it. In that case I would be inclined to leave a relationship. Relationships need to be a fair exchange of give and take.

    - Have any INFjs responded with childish tantrums just to get what they wanted?
    When I was a child, yes. Rarely now as an adult. If it’s something I really wanted badly though that I didn’t get I can be very upset and cry a flood of tears. This has happened when I applied and interviewed for a job I thought was perfect for me, felt I had a very good chance of getting and I didn’t get it. I approached the hiring manager in tears. Well it wasn’t really a tantrum because I wasn’t yelling, kicking or throwing things, but I did make it clear to her that I felt very upset about this.


    - Have any INFjs tried to get their offenders to learn their lessons and not repeat their offenses, by doing/saying something hurtful in return to the offenders? (To create emotional drama so that the offenders would learn their lessons and not commit the same mistakes again)
    Yes, I am sometimes guilty of doing this. If you insult me or my friends, be prepared to pay the price. If you do some wrongdoing, you will hear about it. I give a lecture to the wrongdoers about why its wrong and how it offends people and it can get a bit emotional. Normally I hate drama though and much prefer everything is calm. The drama is unintentional, it's just a visceral emotional reaction.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Something along these lines is described lucidly in stratis duality description for LSE EII
    Re: tantrums ultimatums

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    Quote Originally Posted by wasp View Post
    It's not that I think they're saints. I bet they get angry when they're mistreated, too, but in general I do think it's taken more seriously due to its scarcity.

    https://vimeo.com/129286088 (11:27-12:11)

    what you're describing sounds more like IEI territory.
    EII = Tantrums/Ultimatums
    IEI = Tantrums/Blackmail (I read this somewhere)


    9. EII. The system of restrictions and prohibitions.


    Dostoevsky is not always willing to take on responsibility for the decisions that he or his partner has undertaken. On this trait, he may not do anything himself and won't let his partner to take any decisive actions. However, neither will he allow his partner to "bypass" him and decide something on his own to ensure that his partner won't commit any actions that may be harmful to the EII or to himself. To deter his partner, the EII employs a variety of approaches on his creative intuition: requests, persuasions, suggestion, direct prohibitions, tantrums, scandals, exaggerated fears, intimidation, associations to all kind of negative examples, accusations, allegations: "You want to destroy us! Do you know what happened to the people who used to live across the street? Do you want the same to happen to you and me?" The EII is well capable of intimidating his partner by contrived and exaggerated fears. He can also limit and bind him by promises: "Promise me that you won't do this. I am not leaving here until you promise!" But if a person has had the imprudence to make such a promise to him, the EII will hold him to it and will make reminders.

    3. INFj-ENTj. Influence on vulnerable and suggestive functions of the partner.


    Feeling offended, the EII will try to exert "pressure" on LIE's vulnerable sensing and ethical aspects. The EII will present his semi-dual partner with new requests and claims, entangle and restrain him with more commitments, create discomfort over sensory and ethical issues. He will start to openly express his frustration, to act irritated and bad-tempered, to complain and demand a more sensitive and caring approach, believing that after this his partner will soon notice EII's "suffering" and adjust his attitude for the better. The result of these efforts is usually quite the opposite: the LIE further feels disappointed with his semi-dual partner because he hates complaining and nagging in any form. It is exactly these "signals" for attention that are so well received by EII's dual the LSE that greatly irritate the LIE, creating in him feelings of uncertainty, discomfort, helplessness, anguish and despair, and eventually leading him to snap in sudden outbursts of anger - that is, they lead to a different outcome than one that was hoped for by the EII. All of this in no small measure is accompanied by clashes over ethics of emotions, by outbursts, temper tantrums, and accusations on the part of EII, who still doesn't understand why his most "effective weapon" does not have a proper effect, and explosions of irritation and frustration on the part of LIE, who starts feeling resentful of his partner after witnessing all of his attempts at emotional manipulation.

    Tantrums are fueled by strong Fi. ExI have some of the strongest. IEI also have 4D Fi but since it is not valued their tantrums might have more of an Fe flavor to them. My tantrums were lighter in comparison to my EII sisters and my ESE sister's tantrums were kind of cute in comparison to either of ours. There is more seriousness expressed in an EII tantrum which can shock people who don't know them well.

    I never give an ultimatum unless I can live with the result, whatever it may be.
    Last edited by Aylen; 09-14-2017 at 10:45 PM.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    I will just provide some examples from my life. I'll leave the theory and generalizations to others.

    1) Things not going their way

    It depends on my mental state at the time and what "thing" didn't go my way. If I fall short of a goal or something didn't go as planned, I try to figure out what went wrong so that I can do better next time. If it involves someone that triggers a lot of negative emotion for me (there are few such people, but I mean a LOT of negative emotion) and I'm really tired/stressed from work/lack of sleep, it's possible for me to go into Se polr berserk mode--i.e., once I was really sleep deprived and I was excited to go to a good friend's birthday party in our college dorm's common room, but this guy I hated showed up too. He uses people and doesn't actually care about anyone, and the birthday boy is a very generous person who is prone to being used and doesn't seem aware of it, so even though using someone for birthday cake is not a big deal, the situation reawakened all my feelings toward the guy I hate, and I literally flipped the common room coffee table. My college friends all thought it was funny, but to this day, I don't think anyone knows why I actually did it. I said I was sleep deprived and left.

    2) People hurting them

    If it's someone I don't care about, I try to ignore it and avoid spending much time with the person if I can. If it's someone I care about, I also willfully try to ignore it for a long time (too long), but for a different reason. I ignore being hurt by ppl I don't care about b/c who cares. I ignore being hurt by ppl I care about b/c I don't want to potentially displease them by standing up for myself. Then after a while, something blows up.

    - Is there any chance an INFj might threaten to leave a relationship if he/she does not get what he/she wants?

    Kind of, but I would expect it to be in a subtler way than directly saying "Do this or I'll leave" (which sounds like stronger Se than I have at least). When I wanted to end things with a certain LSE, I just made it clear that I would be really unhappy if he didn't do certain (very reasonable) things that I knew he wouldn't do, so he ended up "breaking up with me." To be clear, I wasn't lying about these things. I was just finally saying my feelings that I had repressed for most of our relationship.

    - Have any INFjs responded with childish tantrums just to get what they wanted?

    I don't think I'm good at manipulating ppl to get what I want via tantrums. Sometimes I throw tantrums (see: desk flipping), but they don't have an end in mind. I didn't flip the desk and demand that the guy I hate be expelled from the party. I just flipped the desk to express emotion and left. I would guess using tantrums to get what you want is more of an Fe thing, though I'm not sure. Personally I can't control my tantrums to evoke the right feelings in people to get them to give me what I want. First, I just can't control them, they are spur of the moment. Second, even if I could, I wouldn't know what exactly to do/say.

    I guess I also feel like tantrums are probably not the most productive way to get what you want. But maybe that's just because I'm bad at using them in such a way.

    - Have any INFjs tried to get their offenders to learn their lessons and not repeat their offenses, by doing/saying something hurtful in return to the offenders? (To create emotional drama so that the offenders would learn their lessons and not commit the same mistakes again)

    I find this question interesting because I've instinctively/accidentally done it to two LSEs (yes, when I am asked questions about being hurt, the two main people that come to mind are LSEs) but no one else. After my breakup with the aforementioned LSE, when we were trying to "be friends," I did try to point out to him some moral shortcomings I saw in him but did not mention before because I am unfortunately more permissive with romantic partners. We had a really long fight, and it was really interesting because he kept asking me what I wanted, what my goal was in telling him these things. I kept telling him I just wanted him to be more aware of race/gender issues and of his white male privilege, and he just literally could not fathom that that could be my motive, so he kept asking me what I wanted. I wasn't intentionally being hurtful, I genuinely thought he was self-aware enough that he could accept the constructive criticism and grow from it, but he was very hurt by it. (Spoiler: we didn't stay friends.)

    The other LSE I did this to was also an accident. We're extremely close friends, but recently I'd been feeling like he belittles a lot of my opinions relative to others' opinions. Then one night he was picking a fight with me (at my own birthday party, no less), and my weak Se was helpless to push back in a sophisticated manner, so I said something like "[LSE] is just being mean to me, like always" to try to end the fight and move on. After the party, he wanted to talk about this statement b/c it surprised and hurt him. And I thought to myself, "Good, then you understand how you regularly make me feel." But it was a spur of the moment accident! I didn't plan things like, "I will hurt him so that he knows he hurt me."

    We talked things out. I admitted I might just be more sensitive than other people, so I perceive a lot of his normal talking as being argumentative. But I still asked him to try to tone it down a bit, knowing that I'm oversensitive, while I will try to be less hurt, knowing that I'm oversensitive. And he agreed, and we've been OK since.

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    1) Things not going their way

    I can be quite accepting of certain things not going my way due to realising that other people's wants and needs factor in too. I'm a bit too compromising actually in regards of where to travel, where to eat, what to do...just cause my own preferences aren't that strong. However if something happens that really unsettles me like people being demanding of me, things going missing t work, too much to do at one time and all calls for urgency, Ill panic attack and 'flip' sometimes, snapping at the people who I feel are nagging me and ruining my own rhythm. And then I feel soooo mean and uncalled for :/


    2) People hurting them


    I tend to retreat from the person and I develop a cold shoulder. I can cry, or snap in frustration. I tend to tell people (others than the one who has upset me) I'm close with about the upset when I've calmed down, and I guess seek advice that my feeling is justified and that I didn't go too far and cause any offence and harm to them, or embarrassment to myself. I am a cry baby and I hate it



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    Sharing cause I think I am EII...sorry if this is oversharing since I talk about my anxiety

    - Is there any chance an INFj might threaten to leave a relationship if he/she does not get what he/she wants?



    No. I would try to educate the person as to 'what I want'. And if they don't change then I'd quietly distance from them and break ties. I'm currently doing this now to a friend I've had since high school who has now turned bitter and condescending towards me and other mutual friends. I confronted (well as in I had a heart to heart and a walk by the beach) her last year and explained how I was hurt by her dismissal of my ideas and sensitivity, and she hasn't changed despite my faith judgement that she would and did care.

    - Have any INFjs responded with childish tantrums just to get what they wanted?



    I've had childish tantrums before when I was younger and in the past few years when I've been highly stressed in life in general (thank you generalised anxiety disorder...) little things would set me off like being too scared of driving my new car to the city because what if I killed my family? When I'm stressed I'm more 'alarmed' when things go wrong, and when they did I blamed myself for missing an angle and letting danger slip up on my family unit. I never consciously tantrum to get what I wanted. More like I tantrumed when things got too much for me as a way of me crying out for help. I bottle up a lot of my stresses and due to bullying at school, had low self esteem so it was easier to wallow and blame myself than take control and ownership of my feelings, both good and negative worrying.
    - Have any INFjs tried to get their offenders to learn their lessons and not repeat their offenses, by doing/saying something hurtful in return to the offenders? (Creating emotional drama on purpose to make sure that the offenders would learn their lessons and not commit the same mistakes again)


    No, though when younger and when I've been highly stressed/panic attacking I've accused my parents of wanting me dead and hating me for being a burden. Hurtful things to say. Though at the time I said them cause I was intensely hating myself and it was more a self punishment, I didn't realise that it'd upset my parents and brothers hearing and seeing me verbalise my disgust at my own self and body. I'm still unnerved by my words in those moments of naivety. So I wouldn't choose to deliberately act harsh and toxic to make people feel bad for upsetting me. I do think karma comes back to them though and the best revenge is moving on.

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    I have broken up with three EIIs. We dated for awhile.

    The first EII I told that it doesn't work and that she is playing some games with me. I also accused her of being cold. This was probably partially because of my own insecurity. She later told me that I shouldn't have said all that. That sometimes you should just break up and not give any explanations. Just say "bye and see you around". Now I have to agree on that.

    The second EII got very hurt. She asked me why? She accused me of some things I've said, she accused me of taking advantage of her sexually, I said I didn't understand that. Then we talked and she then finalized it and left.

    The third EII was trying to stay it touch with me. She said that we could still try. That it could work out. But the fact was that it didn't

    Later she told me that she was influenced by me, since I seemed so sad about it. She asked me to analyze the relationship one more time.

    It's difficult to say how EII react. They are so convoluted.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
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    Hmm...when something doesn't go my way in the context of a romantic relationship, I will just do whatever I wanted to do anyway (provided this doesn't affect the other party) and let them do their thing as well.
    As for when I perceive my partner is not giving me what I want...usually what I want is attention/affection, so I'll simply try to evoke that response in them (through physical touch or just plain conversation) and if after repeated attempts I have no response or a weak response, I leave them definitely. (In my head I am rolling on the ground like a worm but I will never show this because I'm a prideful prick .l.)
    If people hurt me I simply cut them off entirely; I don't pursue revenge but people who hurt others usually have a significant underlying issue that will eventually eat them inside out, so years after departing and upon seeing them again, they haven't accomplished much and look like a waste of time, while I'm doing pretty good, so I suppose that's the closest feeling I have to vindication.

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    1. Getting very sad and depressed. Taking out my anger about it on others. But then I come back to my senses and realize I was just angry about what happened to me.
    2. Tell them what they did and how it hurt me because I respect myself. Or I realize that they are dangerous to me and I stay away from them and pray that they get well.

    I think it all depends on how emotionally mature the person is. I used to be more reactive and do all those things, but now I learn to step back and pay attention to how I feel. It is always because of me that I get hurt. We attract on the outside what we feel inside.

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    1) Guilt-tripping, feigning illness, feigning incompetence, becoming withdrawn.
    2) Generally, the only way to effectively demonstrate that someone is hurting you if they are not especially perceptive is to give illustrations. Of course if they are deliberately hurting you, there is less you can effectively do other than attempt to establish what is at the root of it all.

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    Replying anecdotally with the assumption I'm INFj E9. Which, while disputed by a few here, I am rather confident about.


    1) Things not going their way

    Depends on the situation. Usually I'll try to figure out why, the mechanics (interpersonal, internal-personal). If I have the energy and want to invest said energy, I might try to treat the underlying problems and achieve practical outcomes. Or I might directly ask the "problem person" to do what I want, presenting my reasons, too.

    For example, let's say my brother isn't replying in a timely manner to a sibling group text wherein we're trying to decide on a date to get together. I might try to figure out if it's because he's occupied with something more urgent. If he is, I'll wait a bit and be patient (the "problem" is with me). If he's not busy, or if he was and then he forgot, I would probably remind him privately, ask him to respond as soon as he can, and give my reasons for why it's important (with closer relationships, sometimes reasons can be implied).

    If I don't have the energy or inclination to fix a situation myself, often I'll at least directly ask. Sometimes I won't, though. Sometimes I'll just leave, avoid the situation, pout by myself, distract myself with something else, wallow in my feelings whilst futilely attempting to distract myself... "Ignore it long enough and it'll go away." Probably my E9 + Se PoLR right there.

    If I've tried to change a situation and people aren't helping or cooperating, I can get frustrated and start retreating like above.


    2) People hurting them

    One of my weaknesses is that I feel things. The effects might not be immediately apparent (even to myself), but it's there. And if it doesn't get addressed or fixed right away it can settle like concrete, altering my perception of and attitudes toward the people that hurt me.

    The specifics of how I react can vary. But usually it involves expecting more from them to make up for the hurt/damage. And/or some internal work in myself toward forgiveness.


    - Is there any chance an INFj might threaten to leave a relationship if he/she does not get what he/she wants?

    It's been known to happen, but only after things have gone badly for awhile and there's lots of hurt. It takes a lot of toxicity for me to fully, permanently dump someone on my own. The other way I leave people is if someone else very carefully and rationally convinces me it's the best/healthiest thing; I have to really trust the advice-giver to have a good head and heart, though, so that route is just as rare.


    - Have any INFjs responded with childish tantrums just to get what they wanted?

    Define "childish tantrum"? When I've had what could be called such, it's not so much to get something as it is a reaction. Like I'm fed up and what's spilling over my "taking your crap" tank is what you could call a tantrum or me acting out. Or in other words, what you put in is what you get out. But it can bleed over into a form of trying to change things, yes.

    This is subjective because not everyone sees what they're contributing to the situation as "bad" or problematic or even hurtful. So my rare times of acting out can catch people by surprise.


    - Have any INFjs tried to get their offenders to learn their lessons and not repeat their offenses, by doing/saying something hurtful in return to the offenders? (Creating emotional drama on purpose to make sure that the offenders would learn their lessons and not commit the same mistakes again)

    Hm, that's an interesting angle. There is something to the idea of me allowing myself to blow up so as to make a point that the situation is intolerable and I don't want it happening, now or later. If it has the effect of discouraging "bad behavior" in the future, all the better. It can be a form of negative reinforcement, yes.

    However, not everyone responds in the same way. The types of people who value my happiness and friendship (my Fi) are indeed more likely to take my outbursts as signposts. Others don't really get it or care. So it's not a reliable approach, thus I don't usually consciously try to plan anything with it.

    I don't like hurting people, so the act of doing so is hurtful to me as well. There can be some in-the-moment appeal to it, but overall it's just not helpful to anyone (imo).
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()



    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

    "Fear wist not to evade as Love wist to pursue." - Francis Thompson

  15. #15
    Froody Blue Gem's Avatar
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    I am usually flexible with things not quite going my way. I look for the positive in the situation, and try to find something else that works. It's possible that it will work out better than I originally intended it to when things don't go exactly as planned. If it revolves around the entire scale of my life's goals not going the way that I want them to or involves something very important to me, there is a certain point when I start to obsess over what went wrong. I get very quiet in these situations, and don't really want to interact with people, because of the anxiety and the frustration.

    I am reluctant to let people go who I consider to be friends, or very close so I try to push the hurt aside. I am guilty of keeping a lot of things bottled up inside in these types of situations. It depends on how close I am to the person. If it is someone close to me, I want to keep them in my life. If not, I distance myself from those people. If a major boundary is overstepped, then I push people away, and I have a lot of trouble letting go of certain types of hurt.

    I don't throw around threats like that based on not getting my own way. If there was a significant lack of compromise in the relationship, and many hurts built up, that is the point when I would think about ending it, and it would have to be over a period of time. It's important that everyone's wants and needs are met. If one person always has to sacrifice their needs, then something is not right. Not over a petty one-time thing. Things can still work, even if there are moments that they don't go as I planned them to.
    9w1-5w4-2w3 sp/so

    Phlegmatic-Melancholic

    These rabbits were in fact on a raft, as were assorted rats and owls. There may have even been a reindeer.
    On a raft. And a boy was sitting on the raft.
    The picture worried me, I must say. There was an otter swimming in front of the raft, and I used to lie awake worrying about this otter, having to pull the raft, with all these other wretched animals on it who shouldn't even be on a raft, and the otter had such a thin tail to pull it with I thought. It worried me.
    Then one day-- and remember I had been looking at this picture every night for years-- I suddenly noticed the raft had a sail. Never seen it before. The otter was fine, just swimming along.


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