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Thread: Ego in the ancient society

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    Default Ego in the ancient society

    Psychologists united I need your kind help.
    Do you remember if there's a theory saying that the "ancient people" had no access to their unconscious, or something of the like, because of the collective based society they used to live in? Like the idea of self was in direct relation to that of their clan/society/people, making them over all more unconscious? (I'm probably saying it wrong..)

    I've been remembering of this idea of the development of the "self" in humanity as a consequence of I don't remember what exactly... if christianity or greek democracy, or what else..

    Lacan says it was language that came to work as the superego, creating a filter for the wild unconsciousness that because of this blockage can become the ego.

    What about this switch of society and ego?
    Can you help me make some clarity over this matter?

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    I always thought the red blub above the figure was suppose to represent their consciousness. I think the ancient humans was pretty much as todays but less language so that they did not communicate these 'meta' thoughts of consciousness.

    fd8015adf35b74dc9e9d8960b06c7d40.jpg

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    is that the sun?

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    The Jungian position is that man's consciousness was largely melded with his unconsciousness, hence why you get beliefs about ghosts, gods-in-the-world, etc. The civilizing influence enforced a differentiation of some parts, creating the beginning of ability to recognize what was ego and what was a product of the unconscious, and spurring a trend of individualization.

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    Such an excellent topic.

    I always thought this was what the Genesis story was alluding to as an analogy: the fall from the non-separateness of self from immediate sensate reality into knowledge of a separate; individualized egoistic self. Of course I think that separation happened long before civilization developed, possibly around 14-18 thousand years ago, during the time of the Human Revolution. Other human species, the Neanderthals, might have also had two states of consciousness inside them, but because they left behind so few artifacts, its hard to discern. By virtue their brains were larger than homo sapiens, I think it would be a fair speculation to say they did.

    Even animals briefly fall into egoistic states of mind, although they lack the prefrontal cortex to objectively view themselves when they do fall into those states.

    Homo sapien: "wise man" *the one who thinks*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfadder View Post
    I always thought the red blub above the figure was suppose to represent their consciousness. I think the ancient humans was pretty much as todays but less language so that they did not communicate these 'meta' thoughts of consciousness.

    fd8015adf35b74dc9e9d8960b06c7d40.jpg
    If they did they became gurus, shamans, priests, holy people, the spiritual, prophets founding religions, and local spiritual frameworks (siddhartha, gilgamesh, the aboriginal dreamers). Many labelled crazy and unstable, perhaps exiled or put to death.

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    The conscious mind allows itself to be trained like a parrot, but the unconscious does not—which is why St. Augustine thanked God for not making him responsible for his dreams. -Jung
    "And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it, and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

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    And well yeah. Powers beyond our control. Jung nailed this. One of my favorite passages. Demons, Gods, etc. powers beyond our control like the unconscious.


    "These inner motives spring from a deep source that is not made by consciousness and is not under its control. In the mythology of
    earlier times, these forces were called mana, or spirits, demons, and gods. They are as active today as they ever were. If they conform to our
    wishes, we call them happy hunches or impulses and pat ourselves on the back for being smart fellows. If they go against us, then we say that
    it is just bad luck, or that certain people are against us, or that the cause of our misfortunes must be pathological. The one thing we refuse to admit is that we are dependent upon "powers" that are beyond our control.


    It is true, however, that in recent times civilized man has acquired a certain amount of will power, which he can apply where he pleases.
    He has learned to do his work efficiently without having recourse to chanting and drumming to hypnotize him into the state of doing. He can
    even dispense with a daily prayer for divine aid. He can carry out what he proposes to do, and he can apparently translate his ideas into
    action without a hitch, whereas the primitive seems to be hampered at each step by fears, superstitions, and other unseen obstacles to
    action. T h e motto "Where there's a will, there's a way" is the superstition of modern man.

    Yet in order to sustain his creed, contemporary man pays the price in a remarkable lack of introspection. He is blind to the fact that, with all his rationality and efficiency, he is possessed by "powers" that are beyond his control. His gods and demons have not disappeared at all; they have merely got new names. They keep him on the run with restlessness, vague apprehensions, psychological complications, an insatiable need for pills, alcohol, tobacco, food and, above all, a large array of neuroses.

    A man likes to believe that he is the master of his soul. But as long as he is unable to control his moods and emotions, or to be conscious of the myriad secret ways in which unconscious factors insinuate themselves into his arrangements and decisions, he is certainly not his own master."
    "And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it, and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

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    "We are a psychic process which we do not control, or only partly direct. Consequently, we cannot have any final judgment about ourselves or our lives."

    or as 2pac said, "Only God can judge me." Saying the same thing as Jung. Only an all knower can judge me.
    "And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it, and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tearsofaclown View Post
    And well yeah. Powers beyond our control. Jung nailed this. One of my favorite passages. Demons, Gods, etc. powers beyond our control like the unconscious.


    "These inner motives spring from a deep source that is not made by consciousness and is not under its control. In the mythology of
    earlier times, these forces were called mana, or spirits, demons, and gods. They are as active today as they ever were. If they conform to our
    wishes, we call them happy hunches or impulses and pat ourselves on the back for being smart fellows. If they go against us, then we say that
    it is just bad luck, or that certain people are against us, or that the cause of our misfortunes must be pathological. The one thing we refuse to admit is that we are dependent upon "powers" that are beyond our control.


    It is true, however, that in recent times civilized man has acquired a certain amount of will power, which he can apply where he pleases.
    He has learned to do his work efficiently without having recourse to chanting and drumming to hypnotize him into the state of doing. He can
    even dispense with a daily prayer for divine aid. He can carry out what he proposes to do, and he can apparently translate his ideas into
    action without a hitch, whereas the primitive seems to be hampered at each step by fears, superstitions, and other unseen obstacles to
    action. T h e motto "Where there's a will, there's a way" is the superstition of modern man.

    Yet in order to sustain his creed, contemporary man pays the price in a remarkable lack of introspection. He is blind to the fact that, with all his rationality and efficiency, he is possessed by "powers" that are beyond his control. His gods and demons have not disappeared at all; they have merely got new names. They keep him on the run with restlessness, vague apprehensions, psychological complications, an insatiable need for pills, alcohol, tobacco, food and, above all, a large array of neuroses.

    A man likes to believe that he is the master of his soul. But as long as he is unable to control his moods and emotions, or to be conscious of the myriad secret ways in which unconscious factors insinuate themselves into his arrangements and decisions, he is certainly not his own master."
    Wow really beautiful passage. Especially the bolded part, for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tearsofaclown View Post
    "We are a psychic process which we do not control, or only partly direct. Consequently, we cannot have any final judgment about ourselves or our lives."

    or as 2pac said, "Only God can judge me." Saying the same thing as Jung. Only an all knower can judge me.
    Perhaps there is only the appearance of free will? And from a psychological stand point the rest is determined.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    Wow really beautiful passage. Especially the bolded part, for me.
    It is from the first Jung book I ever read. Man and His Symbols. Made me a fan. I had to read more by this guy.
    "And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it, and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tearsofaclown View Post
    It is from the first Jung book I ever read. Man and His Symbols. Made me a fan. I had to read more by this guy.
    hmm, if I ever come across this book I will remember what you said and take a look.

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    That was really interesting to read, thanks tears. I'm wondering if there's any theory for when the switch of consciousness occurred?
    I remember Jung "criticizing" christianity as well, for creating a common ground of beliefs that had to tame anyone's unconscious, but doesn't this resemble the same process of a collectivity that is all imagining unconsciously the same things and that is connected for the power of that suggestion?
    Then what is the ancient period referred to? Pre-christian lack of faith in Jesus was as well relying on other collective beliefs. Maybe the belief system changed, but so didn't the mechanism.

    We can see a distinction with our society, where most religious idols seem to have lost their power of influence, and relativism is applied to everything, but do we really miss a collective idea of what is it all about, working as collective unconscious? I think we have new values.. individuality, fame, could be working as did God once.

    I'm reading a book now called the "The daimon in hellenistic astrology" that brings along the same idea of the unconsciousness being understood as something exterior to our beings; the daimon (or demon) was the name referred to both good and bad fortunes or personal states, that worked as external causes with internal manifestations. This is a fascinating example for me, you see how magic beliefs were trying to understand human nature. But isn't it already a recognition of the unexplicable nature of humankind?

    When did people start to recognize their own individuality as independent from that of their culture? if such a thing is possible... maybe not lol

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    a monotheistic God that stands above the monarch is seen as the emergence of individuality in the sense that it means everyone, regardless of position, even the king, is subject to the rules of God, which was often used as a symbolic stand in for "natural laws and principles." It was the seed of the idea that inasmuch as rules govern everything the monarch has less than absolute power and inasmuch as his power is less than absolute the individual has recourse to something that could theoretically overturn even the wishes of the ruler or the collective. this is played out in the old testament, especially in the stories of the old prophets and judges, who were God's mouthpiece to the culture

    this basically set the ideological conditions for there being such a thing as "rule of law" and ultimately "inalienable rights" and the concept of a "good ruler" was one who was in tune with "God"--which was just a symbol of "best practices derived from the historical and developing collective wisdom of humanity" when Jesus came on the scene he was, what when psychology came on the scene called, a new divine symbol of "unification" which is to say the divine in us and in our rulers is the degree of unification, or assimilation of the unknown into the known, and the rights that such a thing confer on a person to lead

    the ancient greeks called it charisma which was kind of like VI, but it was the "blessing of the Gods" and was often used to determine leadership qualities

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    Eh Bertrand you made me want to read this book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_and_Monotheism

    I really am interested in this topic, I've been told there's even a relationship between monotheism and judaism because of the geographical area where it developed, ie. the deserts: in difficult conditions man creates tough laws, and that reflects the vengeful idea of God in the Old Testament.

    By the way, I've spent the last 2 hours reading "The psyco types" and came to read about hindus and Brahman and the balance of the opposites that shape all eastern cultures, and to me there's much truth and much psychology in there. Definitely a totally different approach from our western one, Jung says it's more introverted, as everything in there starts as a subjective representation... This is in contrast with all the collective feeling of belonging that religions created, it transcends them from the inside, where energy can gather again in a perfect distribution between all the functions, as in the practice of meditation. Wow Jung.

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    Freud is awesome, but he's reductive when it comes to religion. he basically sees God as some kind of father figure on the level of the super ego, whereas Jung has a far more nuanced view of things, where society is fundamentally the super ego and the God resides somewhere inside the collective unconscious. in other words, Freud treats God as a relatively shallow idea invented as a means to social control, whereas Jung sees it as a universal human manifestation of something deeper. for Jung, extreme extroversion and introversion terminate in God, because God is something hyperreal that people can "witness" not just an illusion made up to control people.

    nevertheless, God does get (ab)used as a means of social control. in that sense if you look at Freud's work in that light you can see how he wants to unwind how people came under thrall to an idea without merit, but the idea without merit is the "God as social enforcer" that various religious figures try to use as a means to seize and retain power over people. there is a real God beyond the abusive notion of him, which is I think something atheists lose track of when they battle the corrupt version of him

    religion can be seen as a universal human endeavor to seek the truth, that often becomes abused by the powers that be to further their plans without regard for the truth. but if you look deeper you can see merit, I think, to all the major world religions inasmuch as they have developed a real tradition of wisdom and insight. I really think Buddhism is great, but I'm with Jung in the sense that I believe one must experience one's own tradition most fully because it is from within that tradition the symbols that populate our unconscious are derived. I still read my comparative religions textbook from time to time though and I really marvel at the insights humanity has developed across the globe through time, etc. people that deny religion are cutting themselves off from so much, its a tragedy that they feel its necessary to do so, but I lay the blame for that at the feet of the abusers

    Moses and Monotheism is a fun story though
    Last edited by Bertrand; 08-04-2017 at 11:41 PM.

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    http://3principles.net/the-role-the-...evolution.html came to read this pretty interesting perhaps someone else enjoys, I liked the omnivorous part

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    That basically sounds like participation mystique

    I was just reading about this topic in the book The Origins and History of Consciousness by Erich Neumann. Amazing book. It's Jungian psychology.

    p. 266 The Ego Germ in the Original Uroboric Situation
    p. 275 Development of the Ego out of the Uroboros

    He goes through many things in detail, but one interesting point was that the original psychological situation is that the psyche is external. There is no inner psyche, everything is in the environment. Because of later development we can now talk about "projection".

    In the original situation God is external, ghosts spirits etc. So in that way there is no unconscious.

    He also talks about the collective when there still is no individual Ego.

    I feel the book is a must for anybody interested in this. But it was quite heavy to digest.

    EDIT: The dogmatic belief in God could be said to stem from this original experience of the external God.
    Last edited by Tallmo; 08-15-2017 at 09:51 AM.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    very very much interesting. ty -)

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    Quote Originally Posted by hybris theory View Post
    I'm wondering if there's any theory for when the switch of consciousness occurred?
    Neumann connects development of consciousness to masculinity. In pre-patriarchal society young males would form packs of mobile hunters and warriors. Here they could develop masculinity such as aggression and willpower and because of the external dangers there was a need for consciousness. Later came male societies and patriarchal society.

    Even today for example military service can have a positive effect on development of consciousness.

    Men tend to have a more singular psychic existence. Women are more connected to the roots, the matrix, nature.

    I think neumann got some critisism for his theory. But i think it makes sense since these trends are at work even today.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    This theory actually makes a lot of sense, in the view of Lacan, a freudian "follower", it was the structure of language (male) to create the filter to the Other (subconscious), that is untamed and contains the feminine missing part. So yes, he agrees it is the intervent of the masculine to create a societal being, as now we know it... I adore Lacan.

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    I came to think of another example from Jungian literature

    Falling in love with someone is connected to strong "projections". The man projects his anima on the woman who appears like the perfect feminine, she appears almost like a spiritual being. Anybody who has been in love can relate to this.

    Technically it is a projection, but Jung says that you can't see it as such because there is not yet any doubt. It would be insane if the man said, "I am in love but this is all projection and I have to work through it". It is a reality of life, and saying that it is a projection would be turning life into dead theory. It's only after the partners have gotten to know each other and realize that a real person is emerging from the perfect picture, then one can talk about projection. Before that the psyche is external. It's kindof a subtle point that puts lots of emphasis on the reality of the psyche.
    Last edited by Tallmo; 08-23-2017 at 04:55 PM.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    HI Tallmo!
    I was reading Levi Strauss thinking of what yo9u said of Neumann. Levi Strauss is another interesting dude that says ancients had a similar mind to ours but influenced, through language, to fit a certain context. So we can actually compare the minds of the ancients and the moders, because that work alike.

    Thanks for bringing on more points as usual
    Last edited by ooo; 08-30-2017 at 07:08 AM.

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